The Daily Zeitgeist - Icon #3: Ms. Piggy w/ Jamie Loftus

Episode Date: December 1, 2025

Hello, The Internet!™, and welcome to this spinoff episode of The Daily Zeitgeist we’re calling The Iconograph: a show about icons. In this episode, Miles and Jack are joined by writer/actor/comedian/podcaster Jamie Loftus to talk about the woman. the pig. the legend: Ms. Piggy. They'll explore her origin story, relationship with Kermit (and lackthereof with Fozzie), and her status as a queer icon?See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an I-Heart podcast, Guaranteed Human. On this week's episode of Next Chapter, I, TDJ, sit down with Denzel Washington, a two-time Academy Award-winning actor and cultural icon. I don't take any credit for it. I just didn't put me first. I just put God first, and he's carrying me. Listen to the next chapter podcast on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcast new episodes drop weekly i'm christin davis host of the podcast are you a charlotte the most

anticipated guest from season three is here the tray to my charlotte kyle mclaughlin joins me to relive all of the magical tray and charlotte moments he reveals what he thinks of tray giving charlotte a cardboard baby and why he chose not to return to and just like that you listen to are you a charlotte on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hi, I'm Dr. Priyankawali. And I'm Hurricane DeBolu. On our new podcast Health Stuff, we demystify your burning health questions. You'll hear us being completely honest about her own health.

My residency colon was like a cry for help, honestly. And you'll hear candid advice and personal stories from experts who want to make health care more human. I feel like I never felt like I truly belonged in medicine. We want to make health less confusing and maybe even a little fun. Find health stuff on the IHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. The Big Take podcast from Bloomberg News keeps you on top of the biggest stories of the day. My fellow Americans, this is Liberation Day. Stories that move markets.

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I was like, all right. Blue man group? Blue man group. Blue man group. Remember those Intel commercials? Icones. They're coming. Blue man group is coming.

Blue man group is coming. Blue man group is coming. Is that on your list? Blue Man Group? It's not, but it's just an added. Blue Man Group should, yeah. Blue Man Group should definitely be on it. Blue Man Gru? Oh, hell yeah.

There's nothing funnier than a Blue Man Group reveal. There's like a literary fiction writer who I really like. I was on her Wikipedia page and I was like, she was formally, she's divorced from a Blue man. And you're like, oh, wow. You're like, that's who that book was about? That's crazy. Because they're all like these like art dudes from New York is how it started.

And then it just turned into like. a Vegas. It was like such a New York thing, I felt like. Yeah, they're like, like ex-Brooklyn guys who like needed work. And I was like, wow, she got her heart stomped on by a blue man. I hear, uh, you ought to know is actually about a blue man. Blue man. Yeah, that's right. Alonis Moriss out of the founding Blue Man. Hello, the internet and welcome to this spin-off episode of their daily side guys, which we're calling the iconograph. instead of looking at the zeitgeist through current events, we're looking at it through the lens of the powerful pop-cultural whore cruxes

that are our icons. We use these characters to create meaning, to build identity, to learn conversational French, to know the appropriate sound to make when beating the shit out of our long-term boyfriend, which is, there it is.

That's right. In this episode, we're talking, I'm Japanese. Miss Piggy, if you're nasty. and that's why I did leave it for you, Miles. With apologies to Kermit, the Frog, and David Bowie's codpiece, maybe the most famous and beloved of Jim Henson's creations, Miss Piggy. I'm thrilled to be joined, as always, by my co-host, Mr. Miles!

Oh, I love this. I love an episode starting off, and I'm like, it's the, it's not, no, we're habitual, habitual doing the show one way. That's right. Great, great. I love the topic. I love a good love a good hiya

It's like an earworm It's like an earworm of a thing When you really get it Like the That part That's right It's hitting It tingles the brain a little bit

A little tease It is the first It's the thing It's the thing that Crystallized the character For Frankas When he did Like he improvised that

And it was like Oh this is when I Understood the character For the first time How many drugs With this guy I love He's like

Oh fuck yeah This is a character I found it Well that Ahoo you heard in the background In our third seat One of the very faces on Mount Zaitmore An Emmy nominated writer artist

Comedian behind many of the most acclaimed Podcasts like Actcast Ghost Church The Beckdale cast 16th minute of fame She's the New York Times Bestselling author of Raw Dog Oh my God

It's Jamie Loftus Bless you Jamie! Hiya Yes Hell yeah Hell yeah. Feels good, right? Doesn't it feel good?

I don't think I've ever hit someone with the high y'all, you know? Yeah. No. Just like a cute thing to do to your partner. As long as you don't like fucking smash them like she does. As long as you don't actually. I mean, she, that felt like a powerful attack she had. Like if she was like a highlight real of them.

She's so much bigger than him. He's seen his arms? Have you seen his arms? Oh, my God. He goes, I, there have to be ones where he just goes. flying, right? Yeah, there is. There are a couple, yeah.

Where he just goes flying like it's a fucking explosion in a Mission Impossible movie. I'm like, I don't get a YouTube, but if there's like a Miss Piggy Hayah compilation, just her fucking shit up. I found one earlier. Okay. Perfect. Guys, thank you so much for joining Jamie. So, so excited to have you here for this. I did hear your Beckdale cast episode about the Muppet movie.

So I was like, got to have Jamie on for. Miss Piggy, because you're, you're a piggy stand. I'm a piggy stand. I wish I was more like her, but I feel like everyone has their inner Miss Piggy. But, yeah, I really need to start, you know, really hitting people more. I think that's what we're learning. That's the main takeaway, yeah. Yeah, if I'm a kid, that would be a takeaway, yeah.

Or whatever, vu. Voo, yeah. She doesn't really understand French, but she sprangles it through. route and that's cute um do you guys have like a singular like oh that's when i when miss piggy was crystallized for me in your memory like i i was looking back and i was like oh i think the first time i encountered her was on those like reading posters in elementary school classrooms you remember like she was and then that was the first time i encountered grown up miss piggy because i knew miss piggy from muppet babies right right right yeah yeah yeah i think uh my it for me

that probably starts like anyone. I was like, it was always Kermit and Miss Piggy in my mind. Yeah. So I never... I can't think of like, even if I knew Kermit before Miss Piggy, I feel like to me they entered my brain at the same time,

even though I think what Kermit, it was always Kermit first. But look, I was a kid. It was the 80s. I didn't know shit. We're going to get into it. I think my entry point to Miss Piggy, I think the first Mubbitt thing I remember seeing

is Mubbitt Treasure Island. I have a vivid memory of getting into a big fight with my cousin because we were fighting over because the kid who plays Jim Hawkins, we both had a crush on him and we were fighting over who gets to marry him. And we got the marriage rights. And we would do that over every like boy protagonist in a movie. We also did it over.

There was a movie called Casper, a new beginning. And there was a identical looking boy that we would just hit. We would high out each other for this like, you know, mysterious child's hand in marriage. So I remember Miss Pee

in that Muppet Christmas Carol. I feel like I saw the movies before I saw the ever saw the TV show. Right. Real quick, some kind of icon

Bonafide's because last week we talked about how popular Urkel was that, you know, every season from season two through seven of his show

like destroyed what the most watched TV in modern times is. I think it was like pulling in 20 to 27 million viewers a week. The most viewed show currently is Monday night football at like 16 million people. I just want to read this description of The Muppet show when it was on. It aired in over 100 countries and had a weekly worldwide audience by 1978 of 235 million people.

No fucking way. Stop! It was everywhere. It was like so global. I feel like maybe I'm wrong, but I feel like it. up until fairly recently, I feel like it was sort of difficult to find old episodes of the Muppet Show.

I didn't see them until I was in college. And the guests they were pulling was like, Yeah. So I don't know. I feel like whatever, we don't have monoculture at all anymore. But particularly like monoculture that was pulling so many different kinds of people

as the host. Like I've, I had the Rudolph Norev episode had a very strong impression of me. Like they would have like, ballerinas hosting the Muppet show. To 235 million people, that's nuts. It is a weird mix of high and low.

And then just for my example, the thing that proves to me the lasting power of like how iconic the Muppets are, something we were talking about was, there's that LCD sound system video for Dance Yourself Clean that like every white guy is like, have you seen this YouTube video? It's like for Dance Yourself Clean,

but it's got Muppets in it and the video like objectively sucks it's not a good video was it like a few days ago you brought it up and we started watching it and I was like I had never seen it and I was like Brian or Justin brought it up

and was like every white guy I've been showed this by like three different white guys and I was like me too and then we watched it and we were like this sucks yeah Brian said Sidney Poitiers like the guests they would have on the show, we're absolutely

like, and everyone is having the time of their lives, because how could you not? Like, it's just so cool. Harry Belafonte, another really good episode. Wait, Brian said made that up for attention. I just thought

the image of Sidney Portier acting running to the grouch in a trash can is funny. He could have done it. Right. He just, he was so dignified, you know. It's like, come on, Sydney, get in the fucking trash can't. Are you sure? Now, we can't believe anything you say in the chat, Brian.

Wait. Oh, shit. Wait. I, okay. I feel like I remember that. Yeah. New Mandela fact. The city. The part when they had Nelson Mandela on. Yeah. After he died. It was crazy. Right. Yeah. It's true.

The Bernstein bears. Well, the Harry Belafonte episode is genuinely great. Yes. All right. So Miles, to your point of like, Kermit was first and then Miss Piggy. She was invented in 1974. Kermit came around in 1955. Ralph the Dog, 1962, and then Miss Piggy's like the next kind of iconic character.

But Ralph the Dog was like invented for a dog chow commercial. It seems like a lot of these things were like invented on an as needed basis. They were like, I don't know, we need a, we need a girl one. Let's do it. Let's do a pig. And then they like kind of iterate on it. But it's Kermit is old as fuck first. of all like borderline problematic that they had a relationship but uh then 75 animal sam

the eagle statler and walder or the Swedish chef uh 76 we got fozzy which we can talk about fosy um interesting but yeah they just seemed to do it on an as needed basis and then you know now that puppet exists and now we can like do stuff with that puppet uh but i want to talk before because, you know... I like the way... The interesting phrasing. Interesting phrasing. Now we can do stuff with that puppet.

And now we can do stuff with that puppet. Yeah, we can do that. We can think about it. We can create backstories as we'll get into. Getting dead it. Yeah. Now we can do some stuff with that puppet and we can think about it. Yeah.

I feel like Ralph the dog has fallen off in the public. Low key. Low key, Ralph has fallen off. I don't dislike Rolf as I, dislike other Muppets. Yeah, we'll get to that. But I think he's fallen off a bit. Not a huge Fossey fan from what I've heard.

Not a huge Fossey fan. Fossey's triggering for me. For some reason, this hack stand-up comedian is triggering to somebody who... I can see Fossey whenever. I can see Fosie if I look in the mirror. I can't see... I can't be around Fosie.

I see five Fosies a night. There. It's all Fosies. Miss Piggy wasn't actually a Jim Henson creation. She was actually designed by Bonnie Erickson, who this is somebody that I didn't know about coming into this. She also, like, she's invented a bunch of the mascots that are like still roaming NBA stadiums to this day. Really? Maybe her, like it right up there with Miss Piggy, depending on like who you're talking to. The Philly fanatic mascot. She designed the Philly Phenetic. Oh, that makes perfect sense because that rocks. The Philly Fanatic does feel like something off a Henson show. Yeah, it has Henson vibes.

Wow. And she was, I think, like, the director of the workshop. But on designing the Philly Fanatic, she said, the managers approached us to design a mascot who could encourage fans to bring their families to the games. So we had to design a character who was child friendly, who was playful and a little irreverent, but not too silly. we heard from the Phillies that their crowd had booed the Easter Bunny there was a challenge to come up with something

that was not going to talk down to their audience that is when you think about it the fact that she created a silly Billy child Muppet mascot that Philly has just completely embraced is such an accomplishment that we just like take for granted

and then when did the Philly Fanatic launch was it like around the same time? It was around the same time She kind of had, she was just like fucking on fire for like four years. She created, I mean, she created Staller and Waldorf. She created a bunch of like really iconic characters. And she created Miss Piggy's name was originally Miss Piggy Lee as a reference to Peggy Lee, who was a jazz singer who I wasn't that familiar with.

I went and listened to like her top songs on Apple Music. And they're either Christmas. songs or like wildly depressing. Oh yeah like rocking around the Christmas tree is Peggy. Is that Peggy Lee? I was like am I confusing? Who did fever? Is that Peggy something? Fever is her. So that's her. That's her. Um, but then she has this one called Is That All There Is. Oh, I love that song.

Yeah. It's so dark. It's like a, it tells the story of like being at a Christmas party or at a birthday party when you're young and like, is that all there is and going to a circus and being like, is that all there is? And then she's like, and I know what you think, I'm going to kill myself, but I know if I killed myself as I was like going to the pearly gates,

I'd just be like, is that all there is? It's a really dark shit, which there's a lot of like dark stuff in Piggy, like written into her backstory that I was not familiar with, didn't read to me. I wonder if Peggy Lee ever, like, got, like, met her.

Because I get it. I get why they didn't keep, She sued them. That's why they had to Yeah. She threatened to sue over the puppet. So Miss Piggy Lee became simply Miss Piggy. Well, like, now you'd be honored to have Miss Piggy associated.

But untested if they're like, so there's this pig on TV and it's you. Yeah. I get it. Blonde hair like you. She's like, my sons are already depressing. Right. She used the shit out of her boyfriend. She started out.

she's incredibly abusive she started out like as sort of a background character she was in like a sketch about Planet of the Apes where it was like Planet of the Pigs and she was just like one of the characters she had like little button eyes she didn't have her big like beautiful

colored iris eyes like a doll's eyes and she didn't sound like herself yet she was at that time played by Jerry Nelson and doing just like a real standard guy doing a girl voice. It was just like, I'm a girl, Muppet. It was just like,

you did it that well. Yeah, yeah, I know. It wasn't quite that good. Sorry, I'm a professional voice man. But yeah. I'm a voicemont. I'm a bit of a voicemont. But it does, I mean, like I was saying,

so eloquently before about how they create the puppet and that puppet exists. and now they can do stuff with that puppet. I do, it's, it kind of reminds me of like SNL talent. Jamie, one of my favorite of your obsessions is like,

when an SNL person like shows up on the thing and then two years later, they look completely different. They got the veneers. They got the veneers. They got the glow up. They literally, I like to like,

Lord Michael slams your head against the table and he's like, I guess you need new teeth. Don't you? Do you need new teeth now? But I feel like if you can make their eyes bigger, he probably would, right? Oh, yeah, yeah. Give them the, what you want to call it? What's that movie?

The clockwork orange. Give them the clock orange. Yeah. But also this is second week in a row where we're covering a character who became arguably the most iconic thing from their world and who starts out in the background. And then we watch as they just like grow and grow as the public responds more and more to them. But yeah, I just, I do think. think in terms of like why we have Miss Piggy, it's like having the multiple projects,

iterating. And then when they needed a female character, they went to a woman who just like happened to be a genius and was like inventing huge chunks of popular culture in like just a few short years. That's so, I still can't get past 235 million people. Yeah. 235 million people. That is just like, wow. Okay, that's everybody. That's, isn't that every person? That's everybody.

That's everyone in the world. Everyone in the world. That's so many people watching puppets on TV. Like, that's nuts. I mean, because it is also, I mean, like, when you think about it, Urkel had 20-something million for a few years in America versus 235 globally. And you're like, oh, that's why, like, Like, I feel like children now, like, you could show a kid in wherever, or most places, like, do you know this character?

And they'd be like, Miss Piggy. And I'm like, do you know who this is? And they're like, that's a man with suspenders on. Right. I'm like, that's circle, but that's fine. You're just not culture. Well, I'm also sure. I'm guessing, I mean, I don't know much about like Muppets internationally.

But it must be like they're so, it's like such a doubleable show that it's got to be super easy to adapt to basically anywhere. Yeah. Puppets. Puppets are great. Puppets are great is also one of my conclusions that I come to. Like I was saying, her breakout moment came when Oz improvised her trademark karate chop during a scene with Kermit. Originally, the script called for a slap, but he decided to go with a karate chop, which then allowed him to, his quote, is the script called for Piggy to slap Kermit instead of a slap. I gave him a funny karate hit. Somehow that hit crystallized her character for me, the coyness, Heidi the aggression, the conflict of that love with her desire for a career, her hunger for glamour image,

her tremendous out and out ego, which it's just interesting that that was so foundational for him because it's also the first thing like my brain spits out when I like think of Miss Piggy if I like have to think of her doing something. It's the karate chop. It's so good. I love hearing like actors talk about like their silly ass character because it has to be so, I mean, and it is important, but like it has to sound so important. My favorite example of that is, do you guys remember when Bill Nihy played Mew 2 in

Detective Pikachu? No. I mean, I know Bill Nye is, but... Well, he did, and I love, sometimes I'll go back and watch his interviews about that movie for fun, because he's just like, when I thought about Mew 2, and you're

just like, you're like, yeah, man, you sound like an idiot, but that is your job like I just love that uh yeah like Frank Oz is like how how does the pigs think where is she coming from yeah but him to be like and then this is it her frustration she's trying to balance it all her career her love life in this high ya I'm like did you really think that at the time did you know it was just sort of like instinct as a performer to be like this is okay yeah because I think a lot of the cases these moments of inspiration for these iconic characters

come when they're like like in this case it was just like I needed to do it. a thing and I did this instead of the thing that the script called for and then like it like kind of all comes together with Urkel like we were talking about he like at the audition he was like I don't know like I went out a body like I blacked out and like came to and I was like everyone was laughing yeah right like that's also like Elvis the character of Elvis which like wasn't how he actually was as a bit because he was like tanking this like he was like trying to sing a song and it was like all serious and sad and I was like this guy fucking stinks and then he like started goofing around and doing the Elvis voice and people were like do that like this guy fucking

this is amazing this guy is amazing want this guy to fuck my daughter but i feel like it's like the creator needs to get out of their own way or something to like then have it all like come together right but yeah so frank oz ends up being the person who plays piggy i always thought it was because Piggy and Fazi fucking hated each other, but Oz actually plays both of them and so that's why they're never around at the same time.

Jamie, do you think there's any way, this is the reason you hate Fossey? Because if Fossey's on screen, Fossey's like literally getting in the way of Kermit and Piggy. Of more Ms.Pic. I just think Fosy like needs to hang it up. Like I just, it's hard

for me. It's hard. You think it's because he fucking sucks? Is that why? Well, I think he's really, he really stinks up to place for a number of reasons. But, like, if all, like, a lot of the early Muppets movies are about them trying to make it big. And it's like, Fuzzy is an active hindrance. I'm not rooting for his success.

I like, he's not going to make it. He's not going to make it. And he's getting in everyone else's way. And I need him to move back home. Where do they? Yeah. Because I forget. in the Muppet movie where, you know, he gets picked up.

Where they start from? Yeah, I forget. Yeah. It's like somewhere, isn't he along the way? Don't they like, doesn't the current find him somewhere along the way, like at bombing at an open mic? Yeah. And it's like, go back.

At the El Sleezo Cafe, I think is what it was called in the Muppet movie. Fossey's got to go to grad school and like, he just has to pack it up. He bums me out. I just love you would be a character in a Muppet film who plays like the bad Hollywood manager who's like, look, Kermit, you got to get rid of Fosie. He's getting in the way. He's an active hindrance to your career, kid. Pity's a star.

Kermit, you've got a natural charisma. But Fuzzy's my friend. Oh, God, get rid of this fucking loose. We become the manager. Isn't that like where managers come from? Is they like fail? And then they're like, well, I hang out with these people. Let's get Fosie an internship at WME.

Let's just figure something out. Start off in the mail room. Yeah, work your way up. He could, yeah. You could be turtle. But Fossey, I bet if you asked Fossey which entourage character he was, he'd be like, oh, I'm kind of a Vince type. They're fucking not, dude. Are you fucking kidding?

Yeah, Fossey and, and I don't know, I think especially if, I don't care if you like Fossey, if Fossey's your favorite, let's talk. Because what does it mean? Fossey can't be anyone's favorite. No, right? At this point, no. No, I remember because Fossey, to me, was, like, bummy. I didn't like his energy. I didn't like his fucking tie or, like, scarf thing.

They were just, he didn't appeal to me. Like, I was Kermit gang from the beginning. Yes, absolutely. Kermit has, there's something about him. There's just something about that guy. We do ask on every episode, like, if they actually existed in reality in our world, would this icon have been on the Epstein flight? logs and

Fossey as we've already covered Miss Piggy not on the flight logs but take another look for Fossey I'm just saying like there's it's only a matter of time like a failed comedian like Fuzzy would be on fucking kill Tony a failed comedian who refuses to be in the same

room as Miss Piggy as the woman in the group Fossey would do a private event at Mara Lago he would have no issue about it and then he would say business is business he's like exactly he's like welcome to the foster in texas comedy scene is what he'd be telling people yeah yeah he's lawless he he's like like all bad comedians he's gonna have to he's got you know the only way for him to be successful is by going full fascist oh yeah yeah and

even then they're like this guy fucking stinks yeah it's big game season we're we're taking down fossey bear put his head on my wall A decade ago, I was on the trail of one of the country's most elusive serial killers, but it wasn't until 2023 when he was finally caught. The answers were there, hidden in plain sight. So why did it take so long to catch him? I'm Josh Zeman, and this is Monster, hunting the Long Island serial killer, the investigation into the most notorious killer in New York, since the son of Sam, available now.

Listen for free on the iHeart radio app, Apple Podcasts, wherever you get your podcasts. Hi, Kyle. Could you draw up a quick document with the basic business plan? Just one page as a Google Doc and send me the link. Thanks. Hey, just finished drawing up that quick one page business plan for you. Here's the link.

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Why would I bring her a cardboard baby? I was literally, I was like, this doesn't track for me at all. When he found out Trey's shortcomings. I'm kind of excited at talking about, you know, I think he's a guy spends time in Central Park. You know, he's probably, you know, there'll be some surgery stuff, you know. And I was like, all this kind of stuff going on. And they were like, yeah, yeah, yeah, fine. And they said, but he's impotent.

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So to your point about how seriously sometimes performers take their roles, Frank Oz, like, says that, like, Piggy is his, he thinks Piggy was so successful because she's like got the most depth and the most going on. And he wrote a four-page Stanaslovskian analysis of Miss Piggy's life that is, like, so dark. Wait, did she have, like, a Charles Entertainment Cheese-style story? Yeah, she has kind of a fucked-up backstory. All right, Frank Oz, although Miss Piggy's essentially humorous, to me, she's had a sad, difficult, painful life. This is not for the audience to know, but the puppeteer should know the background of any good character in order to be able to improvise. I thought we would get like an extensive martial arts background, but it's actually like depressing dust bullshit.

According to Oz, Piggy grew up in a small town. Her father died when she was young. Her mother wasn't that nice to her. She had to enter beauty contests to survive. She has a lot of aggressiveness, but she needs a lot to survive, as many single women do. She has a lot of vulnerability, which she has to hide because of her need to be a superstar. He also said the Miss Piggy's father chased after other soes and her mother had so many piglets.

She never found time to develop her mind. I'll die before I live like that. Piggy screamed. She then left for the city and got a job wearing a sandwich board for, and this is where it gets like really fucked up. For a barbecue stand and entered a beauty contest under the name Laverne, her big break was a bacon commercial, which led her to a job as mass.

got for a local TV sports cast called Pigskin Parade and then she got on the Muppet show just like so much cannibalism packed into the last like two paragraphs Oh my God Obviously this isn't for the public to know

This is for the performer to know She feasts on the flesh of her own Her mom was so busy breeding that she didn't have time to develop her mind Her mind Holy shit My God

I thought I was gonna end like fucking grapes of wrath It's like, and she had to breastfeed a dying man. That took a turn. That told me a lot about Frank Oz. I think that is a really interesting paper about where he was at. That is so brutal. I do like that. I, um, I rewashed a little bit of it this morning, like a really good video essay about

Miss Piggy by Be Kind Rewind on YouTube. Oh, yeah, yeah. Yeah, I love her channel. I like rewatched the first couple minutes and I was like, I gotta save it for the pod. I was just hyped on the pig today. But like, yeah, like how that story is like, that's way darker than I was aware of. But it does feel like mapped on like an old school like, I'm just a little girl from a little town and I had a hard time. And here it was like a Marilyn Monroe kind of like, I sure I took some pictures when I was a young pig I wasn't proud of.

So what? Yeah, and I mean, maybe that's what the, like, cannibalism is, you know, or the, like, having to sell yourself out. Like, I think there's probably, like, some metaphors in there that are just, like, incredibly dark. The, I don't, I don't have an issue with that. Her mom catching a stray like that, that was harsh. That was really harsh. Her mom's a dumb bitch. That was really.

Too busy fucking to fucking figure anything out. Anyway, so Fazi's actually, what if his backstores like, so Fazi's like actually like a sick comedian? dude. Like, everybody loves him. He's so fucking funny. When he enters a space, he lights up the fucking. You wish she could get with Fossey, but unfortunately, I'm both of them. The comedic voice of a generation isn't always recognized right away.

And sometimes it takes sometimes. My hope is that posthumously, Fuzzy will be recognized for his, uh, his contribution. He's really the Vengo of the stand-upy. I didn't realize Frank Oz's parents are like puppeteers, like kind of like renegat. Really? Tears, too, yeah. Oh, puppet nepo, that's fun. That's fun.

They, like, escaped, like, Holland or something in World War II. And, like, his parents had puppets that mocked Adolf Hitler. I was just reading. They, like, some of his, they were, like, about that shit as puppeteers. Yeah, yeah. Holy shit. Okay. The puppet is mightier than the sword, as they say, you know?

The best way to criticize to make a fool of people in power. Mm-hmm. One cool detail. that I think I actually got from the Be Kind Rewind episode was that the reason she always wears pink and purple and like aqua and like those colors is because based on this backstory, a psychological aversion to the earth tones

that she lived with on the farm. Wow. So that's like the sort of thing I was looking for. You know, it's just like, and here's like a fun design detail that like we explain with, and it's like, she was in a commercial for bacon. Right.

wearing a sandwich board, yeah. Frank Oz is like the coolest, one of the coolest people to ever do anything. I was like the fact that he co-created Miss Piggy and then like directed Little Shop of Horrors and like Bowfinger. Like it's just nuts. The Steppford Wives. That movie too.

Okay, maybe not that one. We can forget that one. There's a couple. We can skip a few. But like little shop of horrors, come on. That's great. That's good stuff. It's amazing.

Oh yeah. And Yoda, I guess. The fact that Yoda's number three on the list is impressive. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Behind Miss Peggy and Fossey. I think that, like, I want to get to this later, but the fact that they are one of the few fictional characters that can, like, show up to Prince Charles's coronation, and it, like, makes sense. Yeah.

Kind of makes sense. But, like, I feel like the Henson company. like, treated them as if they were real, which is maybe why they're, like, the only fictional characters will accept as real, almost. I was thinking this this morning. So, like, there's a new Miss Piggy movie coming out at some point, which is like... Super excited about that. I didn't know about before today. I was so excited. I was talking about it. Written by Colescola. Yes. And produced by Emma Stone and Jennifer Ross. It just, it just makes sense. But I was like, Okay, so we're assuming, if we're going to say that movie's going to be nominated for a lot of Oscars.

Right. Does Miss Piggy get nominated for an Oscar? It feels like it should be. Especially if Miss Piggy is still voiced by a man, Miss Piggy gets nominated for the Oscar, right? It doesn't work if Miss Piggy's not nominated for the Oscar. But, I mean, the gender lines in award categories are ridiculous anyways. But like this unique case, you're like, what do we do? It is funny.

It's like a Supreme Court case that changed. changes everything. It's like, and in this scenario, how do we move forward? We've actually, there is precedent. Speaking of the Supreme Court, there is precedent for this because, well, so she really becomes a superstar with the Muppet movie in 1979, uh, you know, does the karate chop moment of like realization. Frank Oz goes back and like writes this horrifying backstory and suddenly she's a fully formed character and the Muppet movie comes along and everyone is like, who is that? Like, they, I mean, they knew her from the show, but, like, she really, like, I was

watching the Siskel and Ebert review of the Muppet movie, and Siskel was like, I only liked the movie when she was on screen, like, he was, like, so smitten with Miss Piggy. He also, like, he's also like, I have the part where they, like, flip her upside down and you see how bigger thighs are, like, oh, my gosh. Easy, baby. It's a puppet, honey. Cool, cool. But there was a fan-led campaign to get Ms. Piggy and Academy Award nomination for Best Actress.

Two fans in Cincinnati launched Campo, which stood for the committee to award Miss Piggy and Oscar. They received 35,000 letters of support and delivered them to the Academy of Motion Picture Arts and Sciences. In response, the Academy made this statement, which I just have to include for like just a massive L. While the Academy does not participate in the pork barrel campaigns, which are an unfortunate part of the annual Oscar campaign, we do wish you appropriate success with your commendable support of such a weighty candidate of Academy honors. Oh, guys, get fucked, honestly. That sucks up. You fuck. That sucks so much.

That's nasty. She, I mean, Miss Piggy has to have gone to the Oscars before. She has. So she, at those Oscars, presented, or I think introduced Rainbow Connection, which was nominated that year, and, like, did a bit about how she, like, couldn't fucking believe that she wasn't nominated, which was, like, really good. It was her and Johnny Carson. And insult her in the same. I know. That's nasty.

Backhanded. And she, so 1979, big year was on the cover of People magazine, which referred to her as the Muppet, movies new sex goddess um the the late 70s were like so weird i don't know so she's she talks about how uh the queen tried to fix her up with prince charles better than prince andrew thank god that would be a real stain on the that would that would not bodewall for the flight logs either yeah that would have been on there man she would have chopped the shit out of him that's true yeah he wouldn't have made it she maybe she could she she would have killed him oh yeah there you go the article also suggest Elliot Gould suggests that he fucked Miss Piggy in it?

He says, I turned down Miss Universe, but I couldn't turn down Miss Piggy. That actually, that pairing, I feel like Elliot Gould does have like a little bit of Kermit about him. I feel like she's got a type. Yeah, for sure. You got that frog in him? He's got that frog in him. Late 70s, early 80s, it's such a weird.

Yeah, good guy who fucks. But everybody, I feel like everybody in the late 70s. had like guy with a ponytail from a documentary about like orgies energy where they're just like we're just here to enjoy each other's bodies and like you know it's cool like it's just like that guy's always there and he's like oh god it's yeah it reminds me of that there it's like a kind of an older video now but chris fleming made a great song about polly couples years and years ago where it's like it's never the person you want to be Polly, who's Polly? It's a guy being like, I have a hundred board games at my house.

Like, no. But in this case, we're talking about Elliot Gould, which I would, I'm on board with Miss Piggy and Elliot Gould. I love that rumor. Yeah, that would make Kermit jealous, too. Oh, hell yeah. Yeah. Yeah, we'll get to their relationship.

But it's, I don't know, going back and rewatching some of the stuff, I was like, I don't love how he treats her like obviously like there there's a big like re-examination of her like hitting him but also he's like kind of a dick sometimes to her like what are you trying to put a wedge

between him so you can move in on this big I don't know girl like I feel like she could do so much better. Whoa like you're like me for example so I'm just saying I don't know like I don't know I got like 100 board games back in my place I haven't taking my hat off yet, but I'll let

the ponytail drop out in a little bit. That would be absolutely a ponytail reveal would be nuts. Shaking it out too. This is who I am. Like when the nerdy character takes the pencil out of their hair and like an 80's like, oh God, they're like, whoa, long hair.

But it's kind of like perpetually wet ponytail. Yeah, yeah, there's like a greasy ass ponytail. It doesn't really like flare out. It's just stuck together a little bit in like a pig's tail movie. People magazine, I also just like this detail from the article because it was the late 70s and they said that gossipists planned that Piggy might be pregnant or had a drinking

problem or perhaps a Coke addiction because certainly she has the equipment to be snorting something. I do just like that Coke was a fun drug back then. Like we're just like, we're all doing it. Wouldn't it be cool to snort coke with giant pig nostrils? Oh, my God. You think if you're people pulling out that puppet, like at parties and be like, yo, dude, let's fucking do a line with Miss Piggy.

They're like, guys, I really shouldn't. It's really for performances. They're like, come on, dude. Pull her out of the case. Let's do a couple rails with Miss Piggy. I feel like she would do it as in the 70s. She did it as a party trick. At parties, Frank Oz was definitely doing it.

He was like, oh, he was in. And is that a fun energy to bring. I feel like it sounds fun, but when it actually happens, you're like, man, this is not good. We, you got to get home. It's truly like 10 minutes after is the high is wearing off. You're like, damn, what the fuck am I doing, man? You can't do a pig's dose of coke. I'm looking at the, the Muppet Wiki is unbelievably thorough.

I just like, oh, yeah, it's got its own. It's like Wikipedia. Like, it's a whole universe over there. Because I was curious, and I'm sure we'll talk about it, but like how, like, how, like, like the Academy Award thing. Like the way that people talk about Miss Piggy's body is so like charged. And, uh, but like she never talks about herself that way, which I love about her. She's like so confident and amazing.

But there's a whole page on Muppet wiki that says Miss Piggy's weight. And it's just a list of hundreds of reference. I was like, who did this? Yeah. And can I, um, I don't know. So for certain Wikipedia pages, you're like, this is against God. But I do appreciate the thoroughness. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

She was introduced to a whole new generation with Muppet Babies. Did you guys watch Muppet Babies? Was that before your time? Yeah. I love Muppet Babies. The Miss Piggy Muppet Baby is like a little too sexy for me. Yeah. What's going on there?

Did you guys like Muppet Babies? I didn't watch it growing up. I was like a, I think, I mean, I was so, it was one of the first. cartoons I remember watching. Yeah, I was like a baby. Muppins. Yeah. And then there was the cartoon.

I was remember there was like a kind of, there was like a reference to Star Wars and like the opening that I really liked that I was like obsessed with. Other than that. Yeah, it was the opening is the thing is the iconic thing. And then nanny's legs like they had a overseer who you only saw her like weird stockings. Oh yeah. Oh yeah.

Like Charlie Brown style. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You just saw her like calves and it was like very mysterious. I love that. They did that on cow and chicken, too.

That was, like, when I really loved, yeah. I love when it's just the legs. That was a Marvel joint, by the way. Marvel Comics Animation Department technically made The Muppet Babies, so that's the first. Just because it was like the cheapo animation style of the day, kind of. They were probably, like, already making, you know, a Spider-Man comic. And we're like, what about this? What if we made the Muppet sexy babies?

Yeah. There's a lot of weird continuity stuff in there. Like, there's a reveal that Statler and Waldorf are the Muppets uncles. But, like, I don't think we need to, like, get too into continuity because I don't, like, I think the premise is that, like, the Muppets are all actors. Like, this is just a S&L-style, like, thing where it's, like, they're just playing different versions of themselves and you, like, never know what's real. So you don't have to, like, worry too much that Stattler and Waldorf are actually just the

worst uncles of all time. Right. I'm worried. I'm worried. Did you ever see that Scott Gairdner cartoon Tiny Fuppets? Yes. Oh, yes. That was so funny because it was like the off-brand Brazilian Muppet babies

when it was called like Cormit and Gonzoor. And Miss Pickey was just called I think he was just Miss Woman or something. Oh, shit. It is what Miss Pickey is probably the best case scenario of like the Mrs. Lady character, right? Like there, it really isn't, I can't think of them or, because it's like, they try to emulate it a bazillion times or like, I don't know. I always go back to Chucky Cheesler as I want to do. And they have a Mrs. Lady character. Like, you always have to have one girl, not even because you care, but so you can make pencil boxes for girls.

Right, right, right. But Miss Piggy, like, they just, there was something in that Coke that was special. Yeah. Brian, I'm going to have to ask you to stop putting pictures of Fossey Vair next to Burt Kreischer in the chat. It's too distracting. They do both wear brown hats and no shirt. Well, I don't sell Brian's hard work short. He's finding exact poses that are identical.

It's like, it's alarming. That's crazy. Burt Kreisers just modeled his career off Fazi. That's wild. I had no fucking idea. Gotta have a backstory, man. Gotta have a backstory. So Miss Piggy is seen as an LGBTQ plus icon, which is wild because it started from a place

where Frank Oz, and we'll get to a quote from Marlon Brando that I think will kind of put some of this into context. But he once told reporters about how Piggy takes over and when he talks about her, he will become her using her voice and even adopting her personality and then added but let's get it straight that I'm straight it's like all right man cool

I really they're okay he keeps telling on himself in really weird ways I know I know what other artists were like I sculpted the David out of appreciation for the human body just because I spent three weeks on the dick doesn't mean I'm not straight yeah look at his biceps though

oh look at those things man sick right sick. I'm straight. Only a straight guy could do that. You've got to be straight to you understand, dude. Go a dick like that. After he became a successful film director, he was still associated with Miss Piggy

when he directed the 2001 crime movie The Score. An annoyed Marlon Brando would reportedly only refer to the director as Miss Piggy. Just like... Okay, that's brutal. I just feel like the 70s, just anyone who was like famous in the 70s was just like broken by toxic masculinity.

They're just like never recovered. That's, yeah, that's a bummer. Yeah. Especially, oh, man. I, I don't, I don't know. Maybe there's something, I, I don't know very much about Marlon Brando. And it's kind of like none of my business. When I see Marlon Brando, I'm like, we're good here.

We're good. That's not for me. That's not really for me. I don't need to know about all of that. Um, especially if he's bullying Frank Gauze to the framework, Frank Goss has to respond in a toxic way to the world. right exactly so yeah a 2001 brando dude that's like oh that's like a shell out that's a pudding cup that's yeah yeah that's dr morrow that's dr morrow you're talking that's tough

but eric johnson who's been playing piggy since i stepped away from the part in 2000 said in an interview that piggy is a drag act it's where some of the comedy comes from he did not go on to clarify. I've slept with like 23 women. Human women. And many of them have said I'm like, good at sex. Um, but he cited Oz's early description of Piggy as a truck driver in a woman's body and then argued that the

character breaks down gender barriers, which I think is right. All right, Eric. Nice. Okay, Eric. Um, people also pointed out that Chapel Roan seems to pull a lot from drag and also Miss Piggy. Like there are a couple side-by-side pictures where it's like, oh yeah.

She might have I mean, literally. Everyone's biting Miss Piggy style, man. Yeah. It's perfect. Miss Piggy also has a wide variety of wigs. Yeah. She's just, she's maximal.

She's the best. Loves animal print, you know. But yeah, that, that Be Kind Rewind video, it's called Miss Piggy Camp and the death of the movie star has a really good quote from a camp theorist talking about camp as this like pure surface level celebration

of like the kind of hoops we have to jump through to live our lives. They say to appreciate camp in things or persons is to perceive the notion of life as theater being versus role-playing reality and appearance, which I think is like kind of a perfect frame to think of Miss Piggy and kind of the Muppets through.

Yeah. Yeah. A good video. A decade ago, I was on the trail of one of the country's most elusive serial killers, but it wasn't until 20, 2023 when he was finally caught.

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Miss Piggy as a feminist icon that's just a lot of people talking about body positivity role model who subverts like the original punchline of her origin is like a lipstick on a pig

like that sort of thing but she's just like I didn't even I hadn't ever even thought about that being the original joke until somebody like reading about the origin is like, oh, yeah, I get it. But it's like, no, she's just like so glamorous

that like you don't even, she just like owns it. She's completely confident. I feel like you don't like have that initial like, she's ugly but pretty type thing. It's just like she's her own character. No. It's an extensive backstory. I also like that like I guess the Miss Piggy era

I most associate her with and I like the best. is that her like kind of 90s Miss Piggy where she's kind of like girl bossing a little bit like she's a career girl and she's also like a ruthless kind of quite evil career girl and I love that which one is that what is that in the ruthless

I feel like I mean most of them I'm thinking of I think it's maybe a Muppets take Manhattan where she's really rallying for parts and she'll like lie to get parts She just like, she's, you know, she's a diva. She's a diva. She's on her grind. Yeah.

And I like that, yeah, it would have been easy to keep the focus on her, like, obsession with Kermit, which, like, it always does. But I feel like her, her passions of Kermit and, you know, being famous are, like, in lockstep. So it's, like, almost weird that she has, like, they haven't, like, adapted her to the modern era very frequently. I guess maybe this Coloscoa Miss Piggy. Yeah, written by Coloskola who made O'Mary for people who aren't familiar, but... The next logical step, honestly.

Yeah, yeah. Like, it could really, like, get into brilliant darkshed. What if it's a dust bowl film? He's like, I look, I went to the source, and I just had to adapt this. Frank Oz, in fact, doubled down when I brought up the Stanislavski in brief. Jennifer Lawrence did say that the Miss Piggy movie is fucked up and really dark

Wow Maybe it is just a straight up adaptation All right But yeah I feel like this Like one of the things driving Her career throughout has been Just the will they won't they Of Kermit the Frog

Like there was a more recent I forget when it was But I remember it hitting the news cycle when they like broke up and everybody was like oh like piggy and kermit broke up that was the second time they had tried that and the first time they did it was actually like called off because like they like to your point they were going to break up she was going to be single throughout the 90s and it was uh there was like this whole book planned and then jim henson died like that week um And so they just, like, quietly, like, pulled back on it.

They said, she's been through enough this year. We can't put her through a breakup. Oh, because then, because he was, Henson was doing Kermit's voice up until he passed away, basically. Yeah, he had been, so his last TV appearance was on the Arsenio Hall show in 1990. So, sorry. This is so funny that it was like, seriously, yeah, we got Kermit the Frog on tonight. God bless. And he was, like, not feeling well. at that and then he was refusing to like take time off and then so I didn't realize I thought he

like died of cancer or something he died of like basically strep throat and just like not getting it taken care of it wasn't that oh my god yeah it's like a really crazy like a bacterial infection that just like got worse and worse and he was at that time talking to Disney about selling you know the Muppets to Disney and Frank Oz this is Frank Oz's quote on it the Disney deal is probably what killed Jim it made him sick oh wow

yeah good good for him for saying that I guess oh I mean because Disney is I went to my for my last birthday my boyfriend brought me to the Henson studio like dirty puppet night have you guys ever been to that for

I've heard about that though yeah Yeah, it's cool. It's like Brian Henson gives the audience a tour of the studio beforehand. And then it's like puppet improv, basically. It's the best way to see improv if you absolutely have to is puppet improv. You must. But it was, it was really cool. But I don't even know if they're still at that studio or they won't be for much longer because Disney has like sort of slowly dismantled. I hope maybe the Miss Piggy movie will save it. But it seemed like they were going to have to. leave the studio and, you know, go to sort of more standard corporate offices, which you have to imagine is Disney's fault. Yeah, because I, like, they were also like, you could like lease office space out of there. Like I remember in the last few years, like, yeah, because the place on LaBraya, right? Like that. Yeah, yeah. With like the top hat of Kermit. Yeah. Yeah. There was like, like, see a little Kermit statue out front. I remember going like back in the day, like meetings with

startups like that were like like a startup was based back there. Like, yeah, Richard. the Henson Studios and it was that company didn't exist for more than seven months. No they shouldn't have to do that. I know part of me felt really bummed out that I was like what but you got like I'm looking at the original dark crystal puppets in here and you guys are fucking talking about some dumb streaming platform that's not going to do fuck. They're like yeah the frog's broke what can you do you do man to make him do whatever you want guys yeah watch this I can ash on his head right no, oh,

won't do shit. He won't do shit. But yeah, in 1990, they appeared on the Today Show announced they were officially breaking up. This was part of a publicity stunt called the pig of the 90s where she was going to be an independent woman.

Okay, so she's going to girl boss it up. Yeah. She was going to girl boss it up. And then that was in May, and just days later, Jim Henson died of, yeah. It's a crazy story. Like, he literally just worked himself like he wouldn't he like woke up at 2 a.m. in the morning and was like I can't breathe and was

like coughing up blood and he was like but I don't want to cancel work tomorrow um so I don't know for as a warning to anybody like don't don't work that hard yeah yeah yeah give the puppets alone this is dark but it would be funny if Frank Oz was like yeah I think it was the breakup that didn't believe in love after that Jim, you're fine with this new direction with Miss Piggy, right, that we're thinking about? Yeah. He's like, oh, he's like, oh, he could just tell it really affected him. He really wanted to say something, but he could.

It was just like a plot, an idea that he didn't like at work. So he like blames it for killing. He's like, yeah, I don't know. Oh, that's what are Frank Austin? Yeah. I think it killed Jim. What do you guys think, huh? It's probably knocked this shit off.

Maybe I'll pitch that next time. I will watch basically, like. like any, like, of the bagillion documentaries that there are about Jim Henson. And any time I see even a shred of his, like, televised funeral services, I started bawling. It's so sad. I was so upset. That was like one of the first celebrity deaths I remember as a kid. Did you guys know that, like, that's how he died?

That it was. No. I thought he had cancer. Yeah. I totally assumed it was cancer. Because he wasn't that old, right? Was he in his like 50 or something? Early 50s, I think.

God. Yeah. but yeah I just remember I was so dev because I I just felt like he was the Muppets truly even like as a kid I knew they were fucking puppets but I still could connect that like all things were possible through his work and the other people he worked with but yeah which is like not that they wouldn't have been anyways but it like almost makes it necessary for kids to have the Muppets at the funeral so you know that they're

like oh my god oh it's so sad if you imagine they're laying flowers on this. It's too much. It's so much. I like, I've never been as sad. Well, that's not fair. But like, I've never been that sad at a funeral as I am watching like low-res clips. Right, right, right. Funeral from 1990s.

So sad. Yeah. So I do feel like that does like get a kind of one of the things that I think is truly unique about them, which is the way that they exist. both in reality and in, like, the fact that they were at King Charles's coronation, I feel like they're the only fictional characters who can, like, show up to real events. Like, they occupy a weird space between worlds for everybody. Like, you couldn't just have, like, Deadpool show up at the royal wedding.

You're like, and we've got Deadpool here. Deadpool is at the coronation? Just sitting there. I mean. A fascinator on. I feel like they because like other characters I guess do show up places

but it always you can always tell it's an ad and then when the Muppet show up you're like oh look you're like oh the Muppets are there exactly yeah like damn oh they were in town that's great when so Edgar Edgar Edgar Bergen Candace Bergen

when Edgar from men and black died no when Edgar Bergen Candace Bergen's father who was a famous like puppeteer ventriloquist died his widow and Candice Bergen asked Jim Henson and Kermit to like speak at his funeral

and he said Jim Henson said there seems to be something strange about having a puppet in this situation and Kermit said I've never appeared at a funeral before and then Henson was like but the family asked if I would bring Kermit and Charlie would have liked it

he said about like his Charlie and Mortimer were his two characters and like everybody just like burst into tears because they realized like Charlie and Mortimer were gone like at that moment. Oh, wow. But yeah, it's sad.

Yeah, it's just kind of this weird, like, you know, puppets have been like a thing and like they hold the like the Muppets hold this like load bearing place in popular culture because they're like our main Muppets or our main puppets. You know? Right.

Like there's a quote from Bonnie Erickson where she's saying they've been a tradition across the world for thousands of years as a form of storytelling. But until recently they haven't been appreciated in United States. We owe a lot of that to Jim Henson's vision. And so like there's something like sort of magical about puppets that like these being the main pop culture puppets like allows them to just like occupy this weird space where we're like, are Piggy and Kermit going to like get together? Like God, I hope they like know whether they're together at any given time.

Right, right. And now Jamie, I bet you'd feel terrible if you read that, I've read that Fosy O.D. after a bad open mic gig or something, wouldn't you? Wouldn't you just do it? Look, you know, my dark Fossey movie is Fossey's in AA and like, who's Fossey's sponsor? I do feel like Fossey can't drink anymore. Yeah, Fossi definitely can't drink. I feel like Elmo's Dad might be a sponsor. Yeah.

Elmo's Dad? You said? Elmo's Dad, like, kind of has like old, you know, musician vibes. Oh, right, right. a lot of shit might have I was drinking and doing heroin they're like oh fuck all right man all right Elmo's dad yeah almost that is seen shit you don't just raise a kid like that like Elmo yeah yeah yeah elmo makes a lot of sense and you see the dad you're like oh okay yeah yeah in the grand context Elmo actually it comes into sharp focus yeah I do wonder like what

the drug seems like with the Muppets you know just generally even I mean it's like the band. The band has to... Oh, yeah. That is... I love the band so much. 100%. They're, yeah. I don't think they're doing intravenous drugs, but... No, a lot of acid in the band,

I'd have to assume, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. They keep it fun. They keep it fun. Right, yeah, yeah, yeah. Stuff that just kind of makes them more Muppety. If that's a phrase. Yeah, stuff that makes you like taste colors. Yeah, yeah.

I will say just the last thing, I have about Miss Piggy's. I feel like to encapsulate the weird place that she occupies, I don't think any other children's character could have simulated an orgasm. Did you, have you guys, do you remember that

thing where she was like doing a parody of when Harry met Sally with Billy Crystal? Oh, no. Wait, when did that happen? It was early 90s and she did it as like a fake sneeze, but she really

Like it was a long time And it was on the Disney channel too Yeah On their show on Muppets tonight Yeah So Casanova What happened with your hot date last night Oh Svali was a disaster

She canceled She had a bad cold Are you sure she had a cold Yes I'm sure she had a cow I heard a sneeze twice Oh hurry hurry hurry Your neighbor tastes Amuse more

Did you ever think She may have faked the sneeze To get out of the date with you Faked the sneeze No way Listenary Take it for more Most women at one time or another

Have faked a sneeze To get out of a date Really? Well excuse me Miss I'm jealous of babe You don't think that I can tell the difference Between a real sneeze And a fake sneeze Nope

So good Killing it with the performance Oh my god That's not how people sneeze Oh my god Oh my god Oh, my God, this is gratuitous. I love the Disney Channel logo, just hanging out down there.

Yeah. Wow. Waiter, all have what she's having. Hey. Only less pepper. Hey. Okay. They land.

Holy shit. That was, when you said it was a fake. sneeze. I'm like, okay, they'll play with it. I didn't expect her to be daggering that table like that. On her feet. On her little feet. She was pumping the table. Even a part where like Billy Crystal

starts like doing a weird thing. I was like, dude, what do you do? Stop that. Men get so weird about Miss Piggy. I mean, the Siskel thing. The Siskel thing really says it all where he's like, oh, she's so amazing. And then you see your legs and you're like, okay, oh, whoa, whoa, look at those yams.

There's the line. I remember, I never watched it, but I'm always like one small illness away from watching. Do you remember Lady Gaga and the Muppets did like special together? It was like maybe 10 years ago, but Lady Gaga and the Muppets did a big thing together. And I never saw it, but I feel like she and Miss Piggy must have really been viving. Because now Sabrina Carpenter is going to be in a Muppet special. Wow. And she and Miss Pee, you're going to get along famously.

Oh, I love, it was a holiday. It was a holiday spectacular is what they did. Yeah. Oh, yes. 2013.

With, oh, God, 2013, with guest stars Joseph Gordon Levitt. Of course. He's not looking like that these days. He's not looking like that these days. I mean,

Jason Siegel briefly had custody of the Muppets. And then, he had to give them back. And that's for the best probably. That's true. That's true. That was a wild time when we were just like, let's see what Jason Siegel does with it.

And it's like, oh, just have him and a new Muppet he made up be on screen. The new Muppet, like what the fuck was that? But the songs were great. The songs were really good. I thought that movie was like pretty fun.

And the music was good. They just didn't need the new guy. No. What was his name? Walter? They didn't even like give him a cool name. They just gave him a normal. I don't know, Walter.

I work in IT. What the fuck? Miss Piggy, Kermit V. Frog, and Walter. Which I guess was kind of the point, but the bad point. That sucks. All right. Anything else about Miss Piggy you guys want to talk about before we get out of here? No, I was just, I think before the recording, I was just saying it's funny that how much of a cultural

mainstay Miss Piggy is. because we had like Donald Trump calling people Piggy. There's like TikTok videos I'm saying talking about Miss Piggy not being in the Epstein files and then there was a story about the woman who

allegedly hit a child on a plane because the child called her Miss Piggy. Couldn't have been the first time a child has called her Miss Piggy. A Maryland woman is facing charges after police in Florida said she hit a child who made fun of her on a flight from Orlando. Holy shit. She slammed the child.

Since she slammed the child's head into the window to play for call her miss speaking. I'm just saying there's a lot of energy around this. A legacy can look like anything. A legacy can look like anything. I'm just happy that like, I mean, it's like the fact that kids still know who she is, even though the Muppets haven't really like put out a successful project in like 15 years. Yeah. For their whole lives is like crazy.

It's got to be like, I mean, it's the same way like I show my kid that stuff because I'm like, yeah, you're going to love this bullshit. I love these freaky fucking Muppets. You're going to love them too. And they do. And they fucking do. It's like it feels like one of the few things of like I've tried to show my son like other shit like I thought was cool from my childhood.

He's like this shit. Like you can just tell. I mean he's like not even three yet. But it's very clear when something captivates him or not. And I showed him the Muppet Christmas Carol. His attention was there the entire time. I could not believe it. Man of taste.

Man of Taste. That's the best Christmas movie. I think it is like truly my favorite Christmas movie. He loves Michael Cain. He loves Michael Cain. It's mainly in it for the cane. Don't blink. Jamie, where can people find you, follow you, all that good stuff?

You can find me on the Bechtelcast every week. Every Thursday from now until the end of time, mark my words. Caitlin Durante and I are going to cover movies from an intersectional feminist perspective. and then mostly I think Instagram and Jamie Christ's superstar yeah

I got a star I haven't been posting as much I'm starting to feel too healthy so maybe I'll start you got to get back in there poised assol I gotta get back let it summon you back

into the pit Miles where can people find you everywhere wow perfect all right Miles and gray all right that's it sorry that's it

stick around oh yeah listen to Santa University yeah we got a new Santa University coming. Oh, yeah. I think it comes out on Christmas or Christmas Eve.

SU 9. SU 9. How have we been doing this for that many years? Hasn't gotten any better. And this year is not going to be different. Wow. Just keeps getting longer. When we hit Santa UX, Santa U.S.

Oh, yeah. X is going to be, I'm, oh, God. We're going to have to do like a live performance at like the Disney theater, the Disney Hall or something. I started to apply for grants. because we got it, we got to get this in the Dolby. We got to get in the Dolby, I think. Or at least Gromans, we got to get Gromans.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's easy. We'll figure it out. We'll do the Montelban easy. Montoban, I'd even take the roof. Come on. Yeah, yeah. I definitely take the Montelban roof.

It's beautiful up there. It's beautiful. Stay tuned. Stay tuned. Stay tuned. Stick around for the No, no, no, no, no, no book dump where I get to stuff that I didn't get to in the episode and bye. Bye.

All right. That was our episode. Always great to see Jamie Loftus. This is the No, No, No, No. Book dump where I get to stuff that I didn't get to in the main episode that I wanted to. On the subject of Bonnie Erickson, Miss Piggy's designer, this has nothing to do with Miss Piggy. So I didn't bring it up in our conversation, but a quick anecdote that I discovered during research that my brain couldn't put down. so I wanted to pass it along to your brain

like the supernatural STD from it follows so Bonnie Erickson, this accomplished designer she's created Miss Piggy and the Philly fanatic and she gets asked to design the mascot for the biggest sports franchise in the world I think the New York Yankees. I think it's them or the Dallas Cowboys but you know they're near the top

and so she creates this large pinstriped bird like creature with a mustache The mustache is designed to look like the most beloved Yankee on the team at the time, maybe of the decade of the 70s. Yankees catcher Thurman Munson, he got a big mustache. Bird has a big mustache win-win. So as his debut, as Dandy the Pinsbright Bird's debut is approaching, two things happen. I'm going to pull from the Wikipedia here, Bonnie Erickson's Wikipedia.

on July 10th, 1979, the San Diego Chicken, who was then working for the Seattle Mariners. Apparently, mascots can be like kind of free agents and move between teams, which I didn't realize. So the San Diego chicken put a hex on Yankees pitcher Ron Guidry during a game at the Seattle Kingdom. Yankees outfielder Lou Pinella, who would go on to manage baseball teams,

responded by chasing the mascot and throwing his glove at him. In response, the Yankees owner, George Steinbrenner, said that mascots have no place in baseball, which despite the imminent release of Dandy, who's supposed to be their mascot. So Dandy does, in fact, debut in late July, 1979, weeks after the incident in Seattle. And then Thurman Monson dies in a plane crash on August 2nd, like a week after Dandy is introduced. Dandy's immediately put on hiatus. They eventually let him come into the stadium, but he's confined to the upper deck area, like the cheap seats.

And it just, it doesn't work out. Erickson and her partner Harrison declined the Yankees' request to sign another lease. They feel the mascot didn't receive the necessary support from management. So yeah, you want some, you lose some.

She goes on to design plenty of other mascots, has a bunch of mascots still roaming stadiums in the NBA. She describes her mascots as all being gentle anarchists, which fucking rules. But I think that speaks to the power of puppets and mascots.

Back to Miss Piggy, a couple ideas I wanted to get at, but couldn't quite get right in our conversation. One has to do with Miss Piggy's relationship with Kermit the Frog, which obviously a very important part of her mythos and iconography.

I didn't spend enough time talking about it in the episode because it's kind of confusing, like they're together, they get married in either Muppets Take Manhattan or the Great Muppet Caper, I forget, but then, like, that gets retconned out. They say the priest was, like, actually defrocked, like, sort of that, so that is no longer canon. But they're just always back and forth.

They say they're life partners who live together. Kermit has said they've never been together, it's the ultimate will they won't they which makes sense from a narrative perspective but you know beyond the obvious narrative hook i think there's another way that it's important to her status as an icon because so my working theory of the icons we've covered so far is that it helps to have some contradiction at the core of like our perception of you you know like so our brains can't just like put you down that's what that's what my brain wants to do when i'm introduced to a new famous person or a character. I just want to put them down. There's too many famous people and characters. I'm already holding all this shit. I don't want to have to know another one.

So if a character or like a person is what you expect, if it's like a jock who seems like a cocky dick or like a nerd who seems like he lacks confidence, I'm like, I know who that is. I can just put them away in a drawer and forget about them. But so all of these characters so far, or, you know, real people with Einstein who become iconic, have something unexpected, like some contradiction. So with Einstein, a super genius who looks sloppy as hell, like can't remember

to put his clothes on before he walks out the door. And we pretend he was a slow child because that's important to us. We want that contradiction. He's not like a Benedict Cumberbatch character who's a genius. He's like an absent spacey. Is that guy? on something type genius. Erkle, nerd, but he's also extremely confident and unflappable. And then with Miss Piggy,

beyond the central contradiction of, like, glamorous pig, lipstick on a pig, as businessmen like to say, you know, that joke never even really occurred to me. But the contradiction that I think is important is that she's a motivated career woman

who can and will beat the shit out of you to like get to the top. She's also primarily driven by her romantic love of Kermit the Fraud. Like, she'll cozy up to a producer to get a role, but ultimately she just wants to marry this mild-mannered, multi-talented, absolute 10. But then she'll also just, like, bail on him repeatedly in order to put her career first. She's also sweet and sensitive, but a fucking straight-up cannibal. So that's one idea, that a contradiction is helpful to be.

build an icon. And then another idea about why she's so iconic is where we were when she was introduced with our relationship to puppetry and just sexual politics at that point in history. I think Miss Piggy stands out among Muppets for some of the reasons we talked about. She's a superstar in the narrative, but then she reads as a superstar on screen to the point that she made Gene Siskel come in his pants, which probably wasn't that hard to do. But I do think, like, the way that she was imbued with this kind of outsized energy that just, like, leaps off the screen and gives Gene Siskel a boner is she really, like, gave Frank Oz an outlet for what turned out to be a very developed and interesting feminine energy that he wasn't really allowed to express in any other way. I don't even know if he knew that he was looking to express it. And people couldn't really get that anywhere else in like super mainstream culture at the time.

And obviously we wanted it. Look at how people have reacted to the freeing of drag culture and like the mainstreaming of drag culture. So Miss Piggy comes along at a time of like toxic masculinity in the late 70s at a time when like Frank Oz has to disclaim that he's straight when he's talking about playing her. And she's just, like, bursting with the divine feminine and, like, could express confidence and body positivity and horniness. And she could get away with it because she's a puppet, you know? And, and again, like, puppetry is this ancient, alchemical art that wasn't being used so ingeniously and with, like, such mainstream success anywhere else. I quoted Bonnie Erickson or Henson talking about, I think they've both talked about how humans have

used puppets for thousands of years in religious rituals and healing and witchcraft. Look at how Lou Panella reacted to a chicken mascot, putting a curse on their pitcher. Like you could say he was being an idiot, but he was also reacting to this ancient, powerful human connection to this art form. And then Henson comes along and reconnects these jaded pop culture drenched minds around the world with this ancient deep yearning to watch someone breathe life and fully formed characters into inanimate objects. And also officially it's kid stuff. People consuming mainstream culture don't have their guards up so ideas and energy comes through that they wouldn't

usually let through this world of mainstream culture that was just getting used to the idea of like strong women, let alone drag acts, allows through this new dimension of like, confident divadom that people weren't ready for and it turns out we're deeply ready for at the same time. All right, that's going to do it for the Miss Piggy episode. Next week, an icon who I don't think really fits with that conflict at the core of the icon rule that I just made up. I think he kind of takes your expectations of the type of person he would be and takes it like 30 steps further, just like maximalism all the way down. we're talking Arnold Schwarzenegger

so we have a great guest for that one so I will talk to you then or I'll talk to you in a few hours if you listen to the regular episodes of the Daily Zaycoast bye-bye on this week's episode of next chapter I TDJ sit down with

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