The Daily Zeitgeist - Loneliness And How We Underrate Human Connection 12.05.23

Episode Date: December 5, 2023

In episode 1591, Jack and Miles are joined by author of The Power of Conscious Connection, Talia Fox, to discuss… The Loneliness Epidemic and more! LISTEN: Black Pepper by Yoruba SingersSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Kay hasn't heard from her sister in seven years. I have a proposal for you. Come up here and document my project. All you need to do is record everything like you always do. What was that? That was live audio of a woman's nightmare. Can Kay trust her sister or is history repeating itself? There's nothing dangerous about what you're doing.

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sponsored by Gilead, now on the iHeartRadio app or wherever you get your podcasts. New episodes every Thursday. In California, during the summer of 1975, within the span of 17 days and less than 90 miles, two women did something no other woman had done before, try to assassinate the president of the

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You know what that is? Of course I know what that is, Miles. Oh, because it's real sneaky. I didn't want to sneak up on you because it's International Ninja Day. That's right. Which I'm like, that did not come from Japan. But shout out to all the people who buy those graphic button-up shirts at a mall kiosk who love ninjas. When you Google International Ninja Day, first of all, it tells you what day it is. I was assuming this was one where it's like, well, there are like three different International Ninja Days. And one of the things that you can do,

how to celebrate, train in the art of ninjutsu. Oh. But also watch a ninja movie. And one of the ninja movies they recommend is Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles. Very, very, yes. Very authentic.

Very authentic, culturally relevant. I love that kind of visibility for all of us. Also, it's bathtub party day. I think that's just like for, you know. Also, it's Bathtub Party Day. I think that's just like for, you know, your babies. You know, bathe them in the bathtub and have a little bit of a party. It's also World Trick Shot Day. It's National Repeal Day, meaning the repeal of Prohibition. World Soil Day.

Shout out to soil. And also, it's Krampus Nacht. Uh-oh. Yeah. That's when Krampus, the evil Santa. Yeah, yeah, yeah. This is when he, I guess, this is when he punishes the children. I get it.

Anytime Nacht comes up, I'm just like, uh-oh. Yeah, yeah. Not a good historical context there. Wait, wait, wait. Where are you going with that? Where are you going with that? Oh, okay. It's a made-up evil Santa.

And also, I don't know what this is, but National Soccer Tort Day. It's like a cake that looks like a chocolate cake, but i don't know what this is but national soccer court day it's like a cake that looks like a chocolate cake but i don't know what that is with regards to the bathtub party one time my wife and i had a leak in our home tiny home in santa monica and we had somebody come out look at it and i think he thought we were like a landlord or like somebody who was like selling it he didn't think we were the people who lived there and he came to me and took me aside and was like look man i don't know what these people have been doing but i think they've been having whoopee parties in the bathroom and i was like i'm that's me. And that is correct. I don't know what whoopee parties are, but I just,

I love the idea of what whoopee parties, how old was this? This is a character from the Andy Griffith show. Yeah. But so that just means like swingers. Is that what that means? Like you just been having sex parties in the, or the bathroom or you have a tiny,

tiny bathroom. Or are you making like the confectionery delight a whoopie pie and they're like they got a whole factory line you're making whoopie pies you know it's uh yeah they're doing in here but it turned out that we just didn't have a proper seal over the toilet that is horny lonely the subject of today's of today's episode lonely imagination went immediately to just like giant bathroom orgies yeah well it's the same way we were talking the other day about how when people were first discovering dinosaur bones the guy was just like yeah that's a scrotum not a bone of a gigantic dinosaur a scrotum of a giant human like he had to come up with a whole new type of human that was like yeah what you're looking at there is the scrotum of a giant human. Yeah. Like, he had to come up with a whole new type of human that was like, yeah, what you're

looking at there is the scrotum of a giant. And I'm a doctor. And you're like, oh, boy. That was a physician. Please let us get to the next century. Anyways, my name is Jack O'Brien, a.k.a. Hot Miles jacking in the city. Zyta Mod guys getting dirt and gritty.

That is courtesy of Andrew at Bohhemian rap city on the discord city spelled like city bank because he is officially sponsored by them and i'm thrilled to be joined as always by my co-host mr miles gray it's miles gray aka just the man whose body still continues to recover from a gravy-based fantasy. Like I said, I had so much gravy from Thanksgiving. I still have gravy, and I will not throw it away. I will not throw it away. I will use it however I want to.

I'll put it on a hot dog. I don't care. Well, gravy, fortunately, gravy doesn't go bad. It has never gone bad, in my professional opinion, because I've also never, it's never lasted very long. No, no, no. I'm always at the, man, we're already out of gravy. End of that equation. Exactly.

Too quick. Exactly. Well, Miles, we are thrilled to be joined in our third seat by the author of the new book, The Power of Conscious Connection, a Harvard fellow who holds a master's in education and counseling psychology. Welcome to the show, Talia Fox! Talia! Hi! Welcome, welcome.

What's going on? How are you? Well, I'm good. I'm thinking about Raphael from the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles because every time I hear about that, I have this desire for pizza. Yeah. And I'm not eating it anymore, so thanks. desire for pizza. Yeah. And I'm not eating it anymore. So thanks. Thanks for that.

Yeah. Every time I hear about gravy, I want to get some pizza. Oh, I should try that. This is the thing. When you have this much gravy, you can experiment. I'll put it on vanilla ice cream. I have not tried that and pretend it's like caramel sauce. I might try that.

I have enough time to do that. Last week you were talking about mashed potato pancakes and using the gravy as syrup. Yeah, exactly. Sounded pretty good to me. I mean, yeah, however you want to look at it, you know. I'm going to chime in here as a little bit of a guru already is if you have too much gravy, this is a time in life we need to let it go. I don't know, Miles, what it's going to take for you to change that behavior. But sometimes in life, if it's overflowing, you need to just let go and surrender. Surrender to our need for gravy.

Yeah. So release the need for gravy, release the need for all of these extra things. Yeah. I mean, I'd hate to show you my garage because you'd be like, wow, you have a lot of paint left over from different house projects. I'm like, no, that's gravy from years past. I will not let them go. Why is the part of your face below your nose so shiny? No reason. Turkey grease, probably.

All the rendered fat from the gravy. I don't know. I don't know. And your shirt sleeve becomes translucent as you wipe it. Yeah, maybe I will. You know what it is? i think it's just like a waste thing you know but the thing is i'm it's it's it's gonna be gone within the next 36 hours i know this this i do know so i think we'll be okay or maybe i get ill and then i have to stop eating it we'll see all right well talia we're gonna get to know you a little bit better in a moment. First, we're telling our listeners just how we're feeling generally,

or the surgeon general being like, there is a acute crisis, which he has recently kind of announced. Not cute, not a cute crisis, but an acute crisis. Got it. Intense. It's not one of those adorable crises. But so, yeah, we're going to get into that and just how we're thinking about loneliness in this modern era of constant communication and lots of connection in quotes, but lots of interpersonal feelings of loneliness. But before we get to that bullshit, we do like to ask our guest, Holly, what is something from your search history

that's revealing about who you are? Well, I was going to share what I searched this morning. I was just looking up. I had so many family members in my house over the holidays. So I was thinking about, I'm always thinking about how I can up my game. And I have this app. It's a money app, and it just gives you a bunch of random money to spend. So I got 200K that I just supposed to spend randomly. So I'm already out of money. So I'm going to have to wait to like the next check to come. I spent it like in five minutes. It was supposed to take me like a couple of days. So fake money to spend. Yeah. And you just get to be like, this is, this is what it would be like. Yeah. So the concept is that you, the money keeps coming. So you never feel lack.

Oh, got it. Got it. Got it. The gravy keeps coming. The money keeps coming, so you never feel lack. Oh, got it. Got it. It's kind of like the gravy keeps coming. The money keeps coming, so you can let it go. Thank you for putting it in the context of gravy for us. Wait, do you get it now, Miles? Do you get it now? Huh? Like, imagine the gravy. Like, you just have a spigot in your house.

I need to have an abundance mentality around my gravy rather than a scarcity mentality that I currently have. Talia, what's something you think is overrated? I'm going to get an answer. If I was live, I'd get tomatoes thrown at me. This is what I want to be overrated. Sugar and bread.

I think it's so good and so amazing, but it really does not make me happy on so many levels. It's so fleeting as you're eating. I'm holding up a crust of bread that I just ate. Let me dip it in my bowl of sugar now, like you were saying. Oh, my gosh. It's so true, though, man.

I'm off sugar and flour. I'm kind of sad about this. My brain works though, man. I'm off sugar and flour. My brain, I'm kind of sad about this. My brain works so much better. I'm so much more productive. I have so much more energy. It's like all those things. But I have this little voice in my head that's just like, oh, you know, have a good time. Just have a little bit. And it's every time.

I just don't feel that great after. So I don't know. You know, Robin Sharma says he's a leadership guy. Says, you know, everything in moderation, including moderation. But some things I've just had to let go. One of them is gravy. The other is sugar and flour. Yeah.

See, that's all in gravy. That's my problem. You know what I mean? It's all there. And I can't turn my back. Oh, no. And your gravy is very sugary. Oh, yeah. Most your gravy is very sugary. I've tasted it. Oh, yeah.

Most people call it maple syrup with some turkey bones in it. But I'm telling you, I call it gravy, baby. Wait, Jack, you don't feel, I know you were, what's your, you eat a lot of bread and there's your digestive system? Because I know people who have definitely digestive issues when it comes to foods like that but i wasn't i didn't know that about you so i started doing the intermittent fasting like after hearing ify wadiway a friend of the show talk about it for five years i was eventually like maybe i and also like i had i talked to the thing that finally made it make sense to me is they were like look you don't have to like focus on what you eat if you just like stick to these rules.

Like, you know, not every day, but like a set number of days. And I've found that to be true that like so much of like how I feel and how much energy I have is like really based on how well I'm eating and like how much I'm eating. And exactly what Talia said like i hate that like it makes me so mad and then like over thanksgiving holiday i was like eating pie after meals for like three straight meals and i just felt like shit like there's just too much sugar hitting hitting my uh system all at once. I swear it off and then there's half a pecan pie in my kitchen and I can't stop

myself. This resonates. I will choose to believe this after the pecan pie is gone. Yeah, right, right. Now let's get to business. Kirkland Signature, by the way.

Kirkland Signature pecan pie. Oh, the Kirk Siggi pecan pie? Yeah, Kirk Siggs. yeah right right yeah like now let's get to business kirkland signature by the way kirkland signature pecan pie oh the kirksey pecan pie yeah kirksegs yeah costco all right we did a lot of uh thanksgiving shopping at costco saving time what uh what's something you think is underrated i think what's underrated is what people are able to do when they listen to each other and they connect. So just connections. Of course, that's my book. So I'm giving you that answer, but it's true. Like I really do feel that we live in a society where it's all about the individual and it's all about what we're doing, but I think we underrate and even undervalue when people collaborate. It's kind of like the, you know, the, the, the miles and Jack collaboration. It's, it's just the beauty

of it when it comes together. Something just isn't right with just the solo. You got to see what magic can happen together. Yeah. What do you think is like a way people don't, I mean, like, I totally get that, especially when, you know, like you're pleasantly surprised when you're like, oh, that thing I worked on, that was actually very, very enjoyable and actually ended up rendering something that was like a good product or whatever it was. But like, what do you, you know, where are we missing that? Especially do you think in our day to day, like in terms of that collaboration?

Because I get obviously doing a show is one way and maybe when you're at work is another. But are there other ways? Because I think when we look at collaboration, we kind of most of the time we're thinking of it in this very sort of like revenue generating space. But like, how are we missing that, too? Like, you know, in our in our personal lives, you think?

Well, the more self-centered we are, the more we can become mentally unwell because we're stuck in our brains. We've got all these thoughts going on in our brains and we think that they're the only thoughts. We think that they're right. We're creating things and we think our they're the only thoughts, we think that they're right. We're creating things and we think our ideas are the best. So when you get kind of stuck in your head, it creates almost this, you know, you don't feel well, you don't feel connected and use the value of somebody being able to help you think about something or do something differently. It's really the core of all of our problems. A lot of people, they have lots of challenges. All of us have problems. And if we wanted to solve the problem, many of us are not willing to be open, to get help, to listen to somebody else, to have that

level of flexibility. And so it really ruins a lot of stuff, this kind of bullheadedness. I know what to do. I need to get up and be on my own and go at it alone. And then we start feeling sad and we start feeling lonely. And then we start being fake because, you know, get that imposter syndrome where you're walking around. Yeah, you're just so great and you're so good. And then you connect with people and you bring your your shadow self or you bring kind of the veil. And it's everything in life just starts getting really squirrely. Right. I think, yeah, it's like the part I think maybe it's probably American culture, especially American male culture is very much rooted in not allowing people to see you struggle at all. Yes. I don't know how to do because I'm not going to ask for help.

You know what I mean? I can definitely see how that happens a lot personally for me because I'm struggling perfectionist. And so the worst thing for a perfectionist is like having people see you struggle. So I totally feel that. Yeah. I'm a recovering perfectionist. Oh, good.

Good. I think when we ask people for help, there's this gut, there's this kind of feeling that that makes them superior in some way, right? Right. It's like if somebody else can figure out something in your life that you can't, does that make them superior? Right. But it also depends on who you go to for help is really important. Right.

Rather than someone who's like, oh, Talia, I guess you needed help again, did you? Well, allow me to help you one more time. Well, well, well. Look who came crawling back, is what I imagine my therapist saying before every one of our sessions. Oh, so you didn't figure it out, huh? Wow. Did you listen to me last week? Yeah.

Oh, my God. Or watch out for people that use the word just. The word just. If they say, oh, you have to do it you just have to do this you just have to do that so what it is is they're they're trying to act like you know it's it's so easy and sometimes that word it's unintentional if you're if you're listening and you use that word don't worry but it's one of those things where if you say just do this it's it's life can be hard and it seems simple, but there's some stuff. It takes a while for us to change and to kind of get going. So for sure.

Yeah. Another thing that like we talk about loosely on the show is that I think is connected to this is that a lot of the systems and like our relationship to money and our like how we think about work. I think a lot of it feels very similar to addiction and like replacing human like emotions or like narcissists are our presidents and, you know, our celebrities in a lot of cases and our culture like holds them up on a pedestal. And I think we're like shaping a lot of the systems that determine our day-to-day

lives in the image of narcissism. And I think that like creates these like addictive cycles. And, you know, a lot of the stuff that we talk about, like people in like addiction recovery talk about how connection is the opposite of addiction. So I think there's like a lot of systemic things that are like pushing us in these directions towards like isolation, like towards these values that make it seem like, well, the real thing that you have to focus on, the thing that matters, the thing that is like adult and real is just like making money and finding ways to like work within this system and not, and not valuing your connections with other people,

like the connections with other people more and more in our economy, especially in the tech world are like described as friction. Like you want to cut down on the friction of like human interaction to get to like these frictionless systems of like perfect capitalism where like make this purchase turn it around quickly don't have to see anybody you click the button and then it appears on your front porch a couple weeks later a couple hours later in some cases so it's interesting i think one thing that's helpful is to be gentle with ourselves because I think we sometimes hold ourselves up to the standard of like, well, this wasn't a problem in past generations. And first of all, I think a lot of it was a problem.

But we are we're also really embedded in these systems that are telling us over and over that like that we should live and have value systems that are pretty unhealthy and are kind of really pushing us in these directions. Well, there's a lot of science behind addiction. And this is why connections are very important, because there's a lot of details about this life as human beings that we may not be fully honoring or accepting. And one of those details is that our brain, we get this fear, and there's so many things going on in life that make us accepting. And one of those details is that, you know, our brain, we get this fear and there's so many things going on in life that make us scared. And so we use, you know, substances, people, social media, all these things to get our needs met in some way. So we feel bad about something and we use that as an addiction. So when you're connected with people, this is why the

12th step in addiction therapy is share it with someone else. There's actually the oxytocin that you get. There's a chemical reaction that happens and brings you back to more conscious connection. We're addicted to experiences and it can, our brains are not, it's not selected. You just get addicted. Gravy, sugar. Let's just focus on the gravy. Okay. I don't need you coming at me telling me. Jack, I trusted you. And you know, Talia, I think you're really cool, but why did y'all, why is this turning into an intervention?

You know what I mean? Gravy intervention. If you try, just try it first before. If y'all knew the power of it, you'd leave me alone. And that guy, that cool teenager did come by and say you could try it for free this time. When he gave you the gravy before Thanksgiving. Exactly. Exactly.

He said, bring a friend next time, chump. And I was like, what? All right. Let's take a quick break and we're going to come back and keep talking about this. We'll be right back. Lucha Libre. And I'm your host, Santos Escobar, the emperor of Lucha Libre and a WWE superstar. Santos! Santos! Join me as we learn more about the history behind this spectacular sport from its inception in the United States to how it became a global symbol of Mexican culture. We'll learn more about some of the most iconic heroes in the ring.

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Boo. Okay, everybody, we have exciting news to share. We're back with season two of the Amber and Lacey, Lacey and Amber show on Will Ferrell's Big Money Players Network. You thought you had fun last season? Well, you were right. And you should tune in today for new fun segments like Sister Court and listening to Lacey's steamy DMs. We've got new and exciting guests like Michael Beach. That's my husband.

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Hi, everyone. It's me, Katie Couric. especially alongside some of my favorite chefs and foodies like Benny Blanco, Jake Cohen, Lighty Hoyt, Alison Roman, and of course, Ina Garten and Martha Stewart. So I started a free newsletter called Good Taste that comes out every Thursday, and it's serving up recipes that will make your mouth water. Think a candied bacon Bloody Mary, tacos with cabbage slaw, curry cauliflower with almonds and mint, and cherry slab pie with vanilla ice cream to top it all off. I mean, yum. I'm getting hungry. But if you're not sold yet, we also have kitchen tips like a foolproof way to grill the perfect burger and must-have products like the best cast iron skillet to feel like a chef in your own kitchen. All you need to do is sign up at katiecouric.com slash goodtaste. That's K-A-T-I-E-C-O-U-R-I-C dot com slash goodtaste.

I promise your taste buds will be happy you did. And we're back. So at the outset, defining the the problem we'll talk about what the surgeon surgeon general just said but do we all think there's a loneliness epidemic like what are the signals you see that indicate this is historically abnormal because the beatles did write eleanor rigby in the 1960s and and they looked at all the lonely people. They talked about all the lonely people. So there were a lot of lonely people back then. That song is always funny to me that like Paul McCartney is just like,

he's like, no, probably hasn't been alone. And like, since he was eight years old, it was just like incredibly cool. And he's just like looking out bewildered, like David Attenborough, just like, right. What are these lonely people? Cause it truly is like the lyrics. It's not really, I it's,

ah, you know, it's, ah, look at all the lonely people, which is different than like, I look at all the lonely people be like, ah,

look at all the lonely people. Okay. Look at all these fucking lonely people. Anyway, is there a chance we just didn't have a lot of mediums that gave voice to the lonely before? And now we have social media and that's why we are hearing about the loneliness or that we think this is real, right? Yeah. Well, I think historically people were lonely, but it was very clear to know if you were lonely.

It was defined as the absence of people, the absence of friends, the absence of family. But, you know, back in the day, and I'm not going to define what time period of that is, we were very, we were much more interdependent. You know, everybody had to show up to work. Everybody sort of had to help each other out with their family. Survival was literally hinged on our interdependence. Now we have created a world where we actually can function behind the screen independently. People can be, you know, without interaction physically with people for months at a time. And on top of that, we have this ability to, I like to call it, there's a little bit, I think of a fake epidemic too going on where we have this ability to create our own avatar and character that doesn't reflect who we really are.

And so when we do get around people, because we are, we've already put up all of these, you know, we're posting things on social media where we want people to see us in a particular way. So now we don't have outlets to be authentic. And then, of course, there's that thing that we all see where if you go to a teenage party these days or even an adult party, they're all sitting in a circle, not dancing, not talking to each other. And they're literally just taking selfies and posting things on Instagram. So you have them spending two hours together and no one really spent time together. They were still connecting and texting each other right

across the room, right there live. So it's hard to kind of identify, but we feel it. And I think that's where the Surgeon General comes in. And can you believe he said that it's, I think you can, smoking is less impactful than the loneliness epidemic. So all I heard there is that I can start smoking again. Hey, the Surgeon General, hey, if you got some boys you can kick it with light up a pack right go have a smoke sesh with your with your pals yeah no i mean the surgeon general released a health advisory and it yeah it was it was like this is a serious smoking his advice is to like get back to spending time with people but like almost like it's a prescription like that it's like look you just have to like we need to like spend an hour a day like with other people interacting with them which makes sense to me because i have this and i want to talk about

this thing that i think might be more unique to our era than I had realized before I started thinking about this and reading your book is like the the dread that I feel before I spend time with people is is weird and it's it's weird particularly because I'm usually glad to have spent the time with people after the fact but I feel like i i don't know and that's another way that it feels like we're having to turn this into medicine we're just like you just gotta spend some fucking time with people man like that's whether you want to or not and you might not want to at first like i i used to really not want to spend time with people unless I, you know, could be drinking before and during. And it's taken a lot of like spending time with people, like prescriptively spending time with

people to get to a place where I'm like, no, this is actually no big deal. And I always feel better after the fact. Well, and we have to think about what's in that medicine. So spending time with people, I think what's happening in our world is we have to actually relearn how to do that in a way that feels different for us because the world is different. And so we need new skills. What are those skills that we need so that when we are spending time with people, it feels good. We get the good benefit of living longer and we're not feeling lonely because I think we're in the presence of people sometimes, but that dread, We're not feeling lonely because I think we're in the presence of people sometimes. But that dread, a lot of it is because the way people communicate, the way we listen, the focus that people have, it really is not it doesn't feel good spending time with people

often. Right. There's a lot of interesting things going on. So you don't necessarily have to be with people for hours and hours. And, you know, it doesn't have to be an all day thing. But taking these small bite sized things where it's like, okay, listen, let's put a timer on, like let's hang out for 30 minutes and let's, let's be a little focused and intentional to, about getting to know each other and about understanding what's going on. And I'm saying this a little more in an academic way,

you can definitely make it a little less structured, but this idea of let's, let's connect and ask each other some questions and, you know, spend time together that feels like we actually got to know each other. Yeah, because I feel like to your point, like about the skills and how we need to sort of develop them or reclaim them or whatever. It's like with every new technological advancement we have, the other side of that coin is we are probably going to begin to dull or completely lose a skill that we had developed prior to this technology, right? So like the easy thing is like I was telling Jack earlier is like map reading, you know,

like orienting yourself, you know, like visually, because we have phones that are just like turn left, turn left right here in like 50 feet, just go right or whatever, or look at the direction of the arrow. You might not even have to know left or right anymore. But like, and also with our ability to connect so rapidly, I found, I found myself in a place too, where like with really close friends, I, a lot of those relationships don't get maintained because in the back of my mind is like, well, we're connected through the phone. We're connected through social media.

We're connected through FaceTime, meaning they can get at me if they need something or I can get at them. But I've completely lost the part where I'm actually communicating meaningfully or hearing what's going on because it's almost like it's like you just have like as long as there's an open line of communication, then that's fine. And then I forget I've lost all these other skills like being present or even interested. Like the other day I was with a couple of friends of mine, we were all watching something. And to your point, there was a moment we were all on our phones, like not just doing the thing, like even for decades before our friendship has been there

since childhood, pre-phone where we could, just like an amazing time without a phone and just talking. And I realized, oh, these are skills like I am that are like become big. They're starting to dull a bit. And that is also, I think, compounding the feeling of like somewhat isolation or just like a disconnection that I feel from time to time. So we do something in our family miles called the, I created this for, we did this over Thanksgiving. So we've got 25 people and we do something in our family miles called the, I created this for, we did this over Thanksgiving. So we've got 25 people and we do something called the family power hour and the family power hours. I identify somebody in the family. Have you done power hours? Yeah. Oh yeah. Yeah. Were you like a hundred shots, a hundred shots of beer? No, no, no, not that kind

of power. So dude, wait, what? Right. That's not the power hour. It's got to be kid friendly. What? It's got to be kid friendly. What? All right, go on. All right. You got my ear. You got my ear.

This is very good. So, Miles and Jack, I think we need to spend more time together because. Yeah. Certainly. So, but with the power hour, I choose one person that is, you know, I've talked to everybody in the family and they don't really talk to each other. And they actually give us a lesson, like some wisdom and things that they've learned in life. And I make all the kids, they all want to stay in the basement and be on social media and play video games,

but they have to just come up for power hour. And I, I asked them to fully participate. And it's amazing. You always have to yell for them and say, come up. And it's a real hassle. But once we get into it, what's interesting is here is I have an uncle in my family who's a doctor who shared, he was the power hour. And it was amazing to me that you have 25 family members and everything he shared about his life, nobody in the room, but me, because I talk to people and listen to them, knew much about him. Like they know he's an uncle, they know he's a doctor, but they don They know he's a doctor. They don't know anything about his story. They don't know anything about his life yet. Yet they've known him their entire lives. So this, this lack of real connection and knowing who people are, I learned some things new

about him. I've known him my entire life. And then people started to ask questions and summarize, and it was so cool. And guess what? It was an hour. It was about 45 minutes after that, And it was so cool. And guess what? It was an hour. It was about 45 minutes after that. Everybody dispersed and went and did their own thing. But they left there like feeling like, wow, I actually really respect my uncle. I know him and I learned something that I can use in my life. And so that's kind of the power of when we are more conscious about the way that we connect. Right. That also sounds very 12 step, you know, like that, that's a lot of AA meetings are just, you know, somebody telling their story for a half hour and then people kind of reacting and interacting with them, which again, it's like this prescriptive thing that addresses what ails us, which is that we don't want to do. We don't want to do that. We don't want to listen to people and have to hear them and have to tangle with their humanity. I feel right. Or like there is a presumption that you already know somebody to like in the example of your uncle.

Like I think of like other family members, too, who I've every family gathering there. They're like, well, that's so-and-so's brother. And they're from here. And they did that. And now they're retired. But those like I well, that's so-and-so's brother, and they're from here, and they did that, and now they're retired. But I only know those five things. I don't know the kinds of trials and tribulations. Obviously, maybe the health things that we all know as a family they've been through.

But to the other points, a lot of those details are lost to the point where I would be like, is this person really my, like, cause I like, I know who they are, but I couldn't really tell you that I know so much about them. And I think with like an exercise like that, to your point, Jack, it does feel it's like, it's like we, we kind of need that structure because left to our own devices again, like to like, at least I can speak personally, those things will begin to just wither away for me. Like, if I'm not making a conscious effort, and as although it might sound like, wait, why are we doing this whole thing? It's like, because the value in that is actually going to be much more additive than just sort of staying like with the status quo or the comfort of like, being like, yeah, that's, that's my relationship. And that's kind of how deep it goes.

And that's fine. And it's funny, you said left to our own devices literally right yeah like yeah yeah i think that that really speaks to something like there's a part of me that i've noticed that wants to make the person small reflexively and like i have this theory that like it based on i i pay a lot of attention to like what what movies people like and what the movies like actually tell them and like what the like meanings are like underneath the surface and like i i feel like one of the things that i've learned from the movies that were very popular over the past couple decades. And I don't know if they're becoming less popular, but like certainly from the late 90s through like the mid teens, it was these movies that told people that they were secretly

the most important person on the planet, the matrix harry potter star wars like all those movies that are like yeah actually you are the one you're more important than everybody else and i feel like there's like something some part of me growing up in the system that i grew up in that rewards individualism and individual achievement that doesn't want to admit the humanity of other people because that means that i'm just one of eight billion me's of eight billion the ones yeah exactly so like yeah from an early age i i feel like i was taught to admire individual achievement and the math of like one in eight billion which is closer to the truth than anything you're gonna get like in like some of these you know movie mythologies like that hurts it makes your life feel meaningless if you are

sticking to that paradigm of individualism and so yeah i i feel like that's another way where the system is like pushing us in this one direction that we have to be at least recognize that that's the system of meaning that we're operating within in order to like get away from it, to get away from some of the dangers. Well, Chris, Jack, that's so honest of you and just vulnerable admitting that that feeling of wanting to be the one. I think everybody, there's a lot of fantasy about, oh, I want to matter, right? So it's like we're wanting something, we're wanting to matter. I think the shift we want to make though is you have to be able to matter because there's no one like you. You're extremely unique. And so there's not really as much competition as we think. I mean, there's a lot of different ways that we contribute. So there may be a time in your life where you absolutely need to be focused on individual achievement, right?

But most people, if you get too caught up in individual achievement and you don't shift at the right time in your life, that's when you start feeling really lonely and sad because it's the law of diminishing returns, right? You can achieve so much and now you might shift to another part of life where that same thing that drove you to individual achievement is no longer satisfying. And so now you need to shift to who are the people around me? Who are my friends? Who are my cheerleaders? Who am I connected to? And so we don't have to look at it as like every single phase of your life, you have to be doing the same thing. But there are, you know, once what now what

is the big question? Okay, I achieved this. Who am I sharing it with? Is it meaningful? Do I even like it? I know a lot of people, they identify these goals. And I was a therapist, by the way, I should actually disclose that before I became a leadership strategist. And so I had the pleasure of sitting on a couch with people. And one thing that I find is that you achieve so many goals, but then it's like, I'm still just feeling dead inside, right? Because there's always another goal. There's always something else that we need to achieve. And so the point is, what is the constant that no matter what you're achieving or not achieving, that makes you feel really good and purposeful and happy in life?

Yeah. For me, there's a heartbreak from those values that I was talking about. And then like, you know, having kids and also I like got into recovery around that time. And like, so I think I was able to like kind of view those things a little bit with a little bit more distance and objectivity. But, you know, it also that new world, that new part of my life, like definitely brought me in contact with into contact with a lot of the tools that I feel like you're talking about, which let's, let's actually take a break and we'll come back. I want to hear more about just, first of all, like the specifics of like the power hour, but also the specifics of like how people can think about listening to people a little bit more in a, in a more engaged and proactive way. So we'll be right back.

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or wherever you stream podcasts. And we're back. And yeah, so first of all, I'd just be interested in hearing, because I think some of the stuff from the world of recovery can be like, I won't like bring it into my day-to-day life because I'm like, well, that's like a different thing.

And like people who aren't in recovery won't necessarily understand that at the same time that I feel like people are talking about like problems that could be serviced from just like, you know, some of these things that we're talking about. So I'd love to hear more about like the power hour idea or just like ways that you have seen just, you know, structurally getting people to interact with one another more or, you know, doing that for yourself, how you specifically get yourself to interact with people on a more humane, active, active listening level. Well, you know, it's interesting in the context of recovery.

It's when you share your experience, strength and hope. And it's OK not to have to share the entire story of your struggles. But the experience, the strength and the hope is how you live your life on a regular basis that works for you. Right. And so a big part of the listening is number one, being able to have some reflective time to be able to know what that is, right. What do I actually, I think about this a lot is what do I do on a regular basis? I meditate. I do do some journaling. I think a lot about how I'm treating people. You know, I'm really gentle with myself when I make mistakes, but I try to make amends when I do that. And then being able to share that with other people, but also ask questions to create space for other people to share things about their lives. And a

big part of this is when we're connecting with people, there are phases of, we don't have to always share the entire war story, right? If it's not appropriate, if it's not the day, if it's not the right venue, but sometimes we throw the baby out with the bathwater. We can still just share little bites of like, you know, I see that you're having this struggle with, I don't know what it is, maybe getting up and going to the gym the way that I, this is my strategy for when I don't want to do things, right? I make a call or I get a part, I get someone that holds me accountable or just kind of sharing some wisdom that might be supportive

for each other. And so even if we can kind of infuse that into some of our conversations, that's really important. It's interesting during the power hour, one of the things that I do is I listen so intently to this, in this case my uncle speaking, that I'm able to repeat and summarize almost everything that he said in the entire 45 minutes. And people always find it to be some kind of superhero power, but it's not. I literally am just fully engaged and fully listening, and I'm not allowing my thinking to interrupt my ability to take in the wisdom that he's sharing. And so there's an actual process and strategy to be that good of a listener so that you can get the value out of the experience and

the strength and the hope that other people have. So we really miss out when our listening is tainted. How would you say we, like we're most normal, like not normal, but most people who aren't being conscious of this are quote unquote listening, right? Because I'll, like not normal, but most people who aren't being conscious of this are quote unquote listening. Right. Because I'll be like, yeah, I'm when people talk, I'm hearing what they're saying and then that's it. But yeah, what are, what sort of like the, what are those sort of finer points that are different about those, these, these ways of listening? So this is almost like a personality test. You have listening personalities, right? So there are people that listen in a very specific way. So for example, I know some people, I'm trying not to mention names here, but I know

some people that they are, they're what I call a plugger, which means that like, no matter what you say, I don't care what kind of story you tell, they're always going to kind of plug something in about themselves or even plug something that benefits them. Then you've got the fact checker, right? That's called podcasting. Okay. Yeah. Podcasting, right? So then you have someone that's like the fact checker where every single time, like you say something, they stop you. And you're just trying to tell a story that like, whether or not it happened in, you know, 1873 or 74 is not the point, but they will stop you and say something like, are you sure that happened then? What I read was that it happened in, and it's like, that's not the point of that's not it's called being a podcast listener this is this is all part of it okay and my favorite one is the helper which

I have to be careful about not being that person but I watch it and you know again we're gentle with ourselves is when you're a person that someone is maybe telling you a story or they're trying to get some support and you just jump in there without knowing the full context and you're like context all you need to do is just just get up and go to the gym every day and just run a mile. You heard it, right? Just eat. Someone told me, I was like, because I've struggled with, I'm always trying to figure out what to do with weight, you know, up and down and just trying to always eat healthy. And it's always been a struggle.

So when I ask certain people, they're like, I don't get what the problem is. Why don't you just eat fish and vegetables and then work out every day? It's so simple. And yeah, just, just do that. And then they, then they go and they start like eating their, their, you know, donut with like a six pack abs. And I'm like, yeah, thanks. Thanks for the advice. But, but he's not really listening to the context. Like the most important thing that I said in that particular instance was that this is hard for me, right? As opposed to I don't need the solution per se, but I need maybe a listening ear to work through why I think it's hard specifically for me, right? Right. And again, that's what people want some support. They want you to understand the struggle. They want you to just get their stories and so that they can feel validated. And after they're validated, then maybe they can be open for solutions.

Right. In a way, it just sounds like we're basically decentering ourselves in these interactions. So whether it's our own urge to demonstrate our knowledge of a topic or our own urge to find a way to make this topic be relevant to me or our own urge to share some kind of wisdom, even though that's not what our person is, the person we're speaking to is asking for. It's sort of this. Yeah, I don't know, it feels like it feels so contrary to like, how we normally communicate with each other to it's like, okay, what you say the thing about you now, okay, now I say the thing about me. And I heard the thing you said. And now it's time for me to see the thing I said rather than just like this much more effortless version of like, OK, so you just voiced a thing that you are dealing with.

And now I can add to that by asking you to continue going along that rather than like, oh, yeah, I've been through that thing, too. And then this would happen. And that's that. OK, now what? We don't have anywhere to go from there. Jack said it. It's our urge to be the one right we've got to be the one we've got to be the center center of attention and we all do it in some ways but if we can be a little aware yeah yeah and i do feel like we might be seeing a generational shift with this like with younger people like we i feel like it might have peaked with like baby boomers being like, you know, self-centered, just like very focused on the self and everything and all the systems were like sort of designed around that.

And what, while mental health is not getting better for younger people, I do feel like in some of the things like the polling that you see, they are kind of acutely aware like they're more likely to have like socialist leanings like they're more interested in like like even like in the growing interest in psychedelics which are like medicines or drugs like depending on how you use them that kind of of dissolve the ego or take you out of the self-centeredness of that way of perceiving the world. I do feel like there are some glimmers

of hope, but I think a lot of the mental health problems that we're seeing is younger people existing in a world that is designed for this completely different paradigm that has been shown to be very, very bad for the continued survival of the species. But I don't know. Yeah. I feel like there's a rise in consciousness, but a decline in connection. Yes. Right. So it's like, we're really conscious about what's going on. I think people are, I mean, the knowledge, you have access to so much knowledge, you have access to ideas and technology and innovations, I mean, on so many levels. But then the question is, what's going to be the impact long term of us really being able to

kind of connect and feel interdependent? Because really, I mean, you can put me out in, I like to watch those shows like Naked and Afraid, we were out in the woods. And I would say if they gave me the tool, if they said, we'll bring your cell phone and your charger, you wouldn't need the matches. You wouldn't need anything. You have your cell phone and your charger. You can just survive out there and just look it up. Right. You can just put it, how do you keep warm without matches? I mean, it's like, I, you know, do you want to take your cell phone or do you want to take somebody with you? I probably would just take my cell phone. I feel like I could have light. I feel like I can know stuff. I'll be good out in the woods,

but that is a rise in my consciousness, but it'll be, you know, I will underestimate the impact of the loneliness of being in the woods by myself. Why is it though? Do you think from your perspective, why it's become so easy to let go of the connection part,

because the connection feels so much better, you know, and I get that there's probably a lot more of like these sort of, you know, fleeting distractions we have that have probably taken the place. But like, it is kind of, I'm always surprised when I when I really look back and I'm like, Oh, yeah, we've, we really don't, yeah, we really don't put so much stock into that anymore when that really was the lifeblood of this species for millennia. I think it depends on who you have surrounding you because it can feel better, but it also can feel like a big hassle. It can feel worse. You have a lot of people that are very self-conscious. hassle. It can feel worse. You have a lot of people that are very self-conscious. If you feel like you're being judged constantly, you have people that will just make comments randomly

about things. It was funny at the end of the pandemic and a lot of people were going back to work and there were these comments that we came in and did some support. There were these comments that people were making, wow, I didn't know you were so short. They're like, wow. I mean, people were just saying these random things. They're actually considered in some ways, they can be insults, they can be microaggressions. But it's like in that particular case, why did you just say that? Why are you just spewing these things out of your mouth that are causing you to alienate yourself or alienate somebody else? And so again, there's the quality of those connections that I think is really important.

Human contact is great in theory, but have you smelled some of us? Like, it can be... Yeah. It's true. I had a firefighter put his respirator on while he was in line with me at the supermarket earlier this week.

It did not feel good. Wait, really? Yeah, he's like, this guy is ripe. Yeah. Oh, he put his... Yeah, yeah. Yeah, sorry, that joke did not feel good yeah he's like this guy is ripe yeah and i was oh oh he put his yeah yeah yeah sorry that joke did not land and you know what that's okay that's why i embrace failure and i cannot be harmed yeah there you go and have you read the research around all this stuff in it you know they say that there's bad stuff for you in toothpaste bad stuff in deodorant i i have like decided that i'm keeping the bad deodorant in the bad toothpaste but apparently it's not good crystals you just wrote crystals don't do anything i've decided i

am not doing crystals and i'm not doing uh natural toothpaste either but no miles i smell good tell tell her i smell great oh yeah you smell so good we haven't done the we haven't done the show in person for years yeah i do feel like one thing that I've noticed in myself is that the psychology of like how we interact with one another, modern interactions are, are much more curated. Like I just, in comparison and comparing like my day to day life with people in the past,

like where the being, being in communities where, you know, now I have kids. Now I'm just interacting with other parents and it's not like, well, I choose they're like top of my list of like people to hang out with. They're, you know,

my kids, friends, parents in some cases and, or, you know, in recovery, you're just thrown into a room with other people who have the same problem as you, but they are in a lot of cases not the person who you would have ever found yourself in the same room with. And in a lot of ways, I feel like that is mimicking how people used to live, right? Like you knew your neighbor and interacted with them whether you liked them or not and like your friends were based on who was on your i don't know bowling team i think they used to bowl a lot it's just you know but i i do feel like part of my problem at least is like trying to be like all right is this is this the perfect interaction? Is this like, you know, putting a lot of pressure on these interactions, like finding the right people to surround myself with is, first of all, can be, in the way that a lot of like media now is just like me scrolling through 400

movies to figure out like what the best movie is. When some of my favorite movie watching experiences were just like back in the day scrolling or, you know, flipping past TNT and yeah, you know, a movie's on and you're like, well,

that's the movie you're hanging out with for the next hour and a half. I guess I'll watch two thirds of this movie. Yeah, exactly. So yeah, I just wonder if being a little more willing to spend time with people, whether or not, and I guess that's kind of by necessity, if we're spending time with other people like on a regular basis, that's going to happen, right? And it's almost like we're in the same world and we're just going to run. Or like the dogs, they come up and it's like they have a little sniff going on.

And it almost seems like all the dogs know and you know you're supposed to like, you know, they kind of communicate with each other. I feel like human beings, we don't really have a system. And we think we do because we just say hello and, you know, give these greetings. But I think we just need to embrace the awkwardness. There is just some interactions that are more awkward than others, but that's okay. If you stay in there for just a little bit longer, you might have, as you were talking about, Jack, you might create a friend that you never thought you knew. This is why we gravitate too much toward people just like us is we're trying to run away from any feeling of discomfort, any feeling of awkwardness. So if you have a room of people, you're going to gravitate towards someone, you know, you need, you need a starter. They're from your hometown. They might look like

you. And we kind of just deprive ourselves of so many relationships that would be nice, but you just have to kind of get past this initial awkward moment of, I don't know what to say. I don't know what questions to ask, but if you've ever had those experiences, it takes just a couple minutes to get there. Then all of a sudden, you know, those people can end up being some really great friends and great connections. Yeah, especially if you're different, if they're different from you and you're focusing on like what you can learn from them, like then the more different they are from you, the more you can kind of learn from them, right?

Yeah. And in the book, you just have some questions that you ask people. But we have to learn this art of just engaging, putting people at ease and being comfortable with ourselves. would have in common with this person but we realized there was like a mutual connection there and just started talking by the end this person who if i was just going off of the sort of same thing i'm like are they from la do they kind of like do we look like we kind of fuck with the same stuff no not really and then by the end of it they were like super into comedy super into basketball like super into like similar art and that all just happened from just just embracing just sort of like the awkward momentum of being like oh what else like oh yeah yeah and then just kind of

seeing where the conversation leads and yeah like almost it proves my own instincts wrong where you're like i i got everybody figured out mostly and then you're like oh no like and then to the point i was talking to my partner her majesty i, I was like, we should kick it with them. Like, his partner seemed cool, too. Like, where did that happen from? And I, I don't know. I think it's, it's because, like, I think I've fully let those skills of, like, being curious about other people just kind of die, too. I think as, I think it just comes along with age.

And I hope everybody listening, look, Jack and I are not just sitting in like dark and like a dank cave, not talking to anyone. I mean, sometimes we do, but yeah, there is like, there is just like this other, I don't know,

very basic part of being a human that I realize I've really let kind of disintegrate in this to a certain extent because of how much like all these things that are at my disposal, whether that be through social media or technology. And I'm forgetting about the, you know, the good old fashioned analog stuff, you know, talking to people. Yeah, I spend a lot of time really selling this concept because here's the deal, right? You have a limited amount of time. It's just easier to watch Netflix. It's easier to be on the phone. It's easier not to connect. And so what's in it for you? Why move through discomfort? Because it does take a little bit of effort and work, right? To connect to

different people. It's the answer to so many challenges. And I think one thing that we miss in life is that we have these problems. We have these challenges, even in like addiction, like the answer is the connection, right? It's connecting to a higher power. It's connecting to other people. But the answer is like, you have to work it. You have to work it. Right. But the benefit is, oh my gosh, look what, look what happened. I surrendered something, life got better and life continued to get better. And now like, you know, I'm, I'm, I'm transforming my relationships. And at the end of the day, I am much happier because I put in this effort. And so that is the, the core of this is we have to learn the skills. And so they're habits that you do every single day that helps us to recover from disconnection. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. All right. Well,

Talia, it's been such a pleasure having you on the show uh where can people find you follow you read you all that good stuff so i'm very active on linkedin and so you can just kind of uh go ahead and find me on linkedin but also talia fox speaks on instagram my book was released on november 28th it's the power of conscious connection four habits to transform how you live and lead i'm really excited to share this with the world i want to start a movement where we're just raising our consciousness and our connection so that we can actually leverage technology and really create a world where we're not zombies but we're connected people

doing amazing things and feeling really good about who we are and what we're up to on a regular basis. Yeah. Yeah. And is there a work of media that you've been enjoying? Yeah, that's a good question. I enjoy so many things and I do listen to a lot of a lot of spiritual things. I've been posting a lot of things out on the lake and talking about meditation and getting really quiet and more connected. But anyway, there's so many things. I don't know if I could even pick just one. Okay. Miles, where can people find you? Is there a work of media you've been enjoying? You can find me rummaging through old Tupperware

full of gravy as I find every last bit available to me. Just biting the lids. I'm just in a cupboard somewhere. I've shown that I've learned nothing at all. But you can find me at miles of gray, wherever they have the at symbols. You can find Jack and I on our basketball podcast, miles and Jack got mad boosties, where we talk about the NBA and all the fun around the league. And if you'd like 90 day fiance and you like a little bit of frivolous reality like me,

then check out a four 20 day fiance. That's the show I host with Sophia Alexandra. And check out For 20 Day Fiancé. That's the show I host with Sophia Alexandra. Tweet I've been enjoying. Trash Jones tweeted, I'm doing an Irish hello, saying I'll probably be there, but never showing up. Yep, that's one move.

It's my move, but we're working on it. We're working on it. You can find me on Twitter at Jack underscore O'Brien. You can find us on Twitter at Daily Zeitgeist. We're at The Daily Zeitgeist on Instagram. We have a Facebook fan page and a website, DailyZeitgeist.com, where we post our episodes and our footnotes, where we link off to the information that we talked about in today's episode,

as well as a song that we think you might enjoy. Miles, what song do we think people might enjoy? We're going to go out on a guyanese like african folk group they're called uh yoruba singers uh and this is a track that actually came on the 70s i heard it like on npr over the weekend but i just really loved you know i like i like hearing groups of people sing like there's something i think to what we've been talking about, connection. Like one vocalist is always great,

but sometimes when you have multiple voices, it just gives something a little bit extra. And this track is called Black Pepper by the Yoruba Singers. So just check it out. It's like an old track. The recording quality is janky, but you know what? It gives it that little bit of character

that makes the song really fun to listen to. So yeah, Black Pepper, your Ruba Singers. All right. Well, The Daily Zeitgeist is a production of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows. That's going to do it for us this morning.

We are back this afternoon to tell you what is trending. Yes, we will. And we will talk to you all then. Bye. Bye. Bye. What is Trending. Yes, we will.

And we will talk to you all then. Bye. Bye. Bye. Kay hasn't heard from her sister in seven years. I have a proposal for you. Come up here and document my project. All you need to do is record everything like you always do.

What was that? That was live audio of a woman's nightmare. Can Kay trust her sister or is history repeating itself? There's nothing dangerous about what you're doing. They're just dreams. Dream Sequence is a new horror thriller from Blumhouse Television,

iHeartRadio, and Realm. Listen to Dream Sequence on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Curious about queer sexuality, cruising,

and expanding your horizons? Hit play on the sex-positive and deeply entertaining podcast, Sniffy's Cruising Confessions. Join hosts Gabe Gonzalez and Chris Patterson Rosso as they explore queer sex, cruising, relationships, and culture in the new iHeart podcast, Sniffy's Cruising

Confessions. Sniffy's Cruising Confessions will broaden minds and help you pursue your true goals. You can listen to Sniffy's Cruising Confessions, sponsored by Gilead, now on the iHeartRadio app or wherever you get your podcasts. New episodes every Thursday. How do you feel about biscuits? Hi, I'm Akilah Hughes, and I'm so excited about my new podcast, Rebel Spirit, where I head back to my hometown in Kentucky and try to convince my high school to change their racist mascot, the Rebels, into something everyone in the South loves, the biscuits.

I was a lady rebel. Like, what does that even mean? It's right here in black and white in print. It's bigger than a flag or mascot. Listen to Rebel Spirit on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.