The Daily Zeitgeist - MJGMB #167: Who Cares About Market Size...Good Hoops Are On with Claire De Lune

Episode Date: May 29, 2025

Jack and Jabari were pleased to be joined by Tiny Death's vocalist/songwriter and NBA writer for the Guardian, Claire De Lune for today's episode. The trio discussed the conference finals and the potential for a Thunder/Pacers series. They also discussed offseason options for several teams and players!See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an iHeart Podcast. Why is a soap opera western like Yellowstone so wildly successful? The American West with Dan Flores is the latest show from the MeatEater Podcast Network. So join me starting Tuesday, May 6th, where we'll delve into stories of the West and come to understand how it helps inform the ways in which we experience the region today. Listen to The American West with Dan Flores on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.

I know a lot of cops and they get asked all the time, have you ever had to shoot your gun? Sometimes the answer is yes. But there's a company dedicated to a future where the answer will always be no. This is Absolute Season One, Taser Incorporated. I get right back there and it's bad. Listen to Absolute Season One, Taser Incorporated on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. In 2020, a group of young women found themselves in an AI-fueled nightmare. Someone was posting photos. It was just me naked.

Well, not me, but me with someone else's body parts. This is Levittown, a new podcast from iHeart Podcasts, Bloomberg, and Kaleidoscope, about the rise of deepfake pornography and the battle to stop it. Listen to Levittown on Bloomberg's Big Take podcast. Find it on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

I'm Clayton English. I'm Greg Glott. And this is season two of the War on Drugs by I Can't. Last year, a lot of the problems of the drug war. This year, a lot of the biggest names in music and sports. This is kind of star-studded a little bit, man. We met them at their homes. We met them at their recording studios.

Stories matter and it brings a face to them. It makes it real. It really does. It makes it real. Listen to new episodes of the War on Drugs podcast season two on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcast or wherever you get your podcast. Well, well, well. The thunder? On the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Well, well, well.

The Thunder, the Pacers, exactly as we predicted. Exactly. Exactly as I predicted like 30 minutes ago. They appear to be on a finals collision course. We'll discuss whether Wolves or Knicks can extend things, even make an unprecedented comeback. I guess not unprecedented, but also some news from around the NBA with NBA writer and musician Claire DeLune. On today's episode, I'm Jack O'Brien and I'm Jabari Ian from Miles and this is... is Claire, NBA writer for The Guardian, lead vocalist and songwriter for Tiny Deaths.

Just to remind you because I don't know, it's helpful I forget who I am sometimes. I do it all the time. Yeah. What's good? How are you doing? How are you enjoying your NBA postseason thus far? I'm good. I'm I guess there's been some controversy among the NBA fans about like if it's cool

or not if that we're heading towards like a Pacers thunder finals. And I would just like to put my two cents in and say that the basketball aside as a media member, I would say this is like a zero tier travel finals for those of us who travel. Right. So that would be my two cents is that like, I think the basketball would be hypothetically phenomenal

but from a travel perspective Indianapolis and Oklahoma City are like Pretty low on the power rankings of NBA cities to travel to for work But even San Antonio has the Riverwalk, you know, yeah Like you can even pretty much every other NBA city has a little bit more as a little something to offer Pretty much every other NBA city has a little bit more. Has a little something to offer. Indianapolis has that one steakhouse that has. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Shrimp cocktail.

With very spicy. Horse radish. Clear your nostrils all the way out. So that's something. There you go, Claire. Does Indy have. Shrimp cocktail. Was it just for like the final four or something like that?

Or does Indy, if I'm not mistaken, have a basketball court at their airport? They did. That was just when they hosted All-Star weekend, I think. Ah, okay. Yeah. Got it. That was last year, right? Can't even look forward to that. Got it. Okay. Do they just have like a giant pop-a-shot thing and was just just for the final four. Is their convention center

always filled up with like basketball trivia games? Yeah, you know, it's a great place. I mean, they love hosting things that they're enthusiastic hosts. And I imagine I feel like the fans of both sides will be so revved up for this that maybe you can at least like bask in the secondhand serotonin, all the good brain chemicals that'll be sloshing around the most cities. For sure, in the arenas, it'll be awesome. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, definitely. And the basketball is good.

We'll get to that. But the basketball, I feel like the two coolest things I've seen so far in the postseason are the Pacers coming back, just like making incredible, unprecedented, like comebacks. Like just starting from the Bucks series. Like I remember that was, I think that might be the only thing that I live texted you guys about, Jamar. I was like, yo, did you just see how Milwaukee went out? And then also Oklahoma City's defense. It's two, the two kind of strongest weapons that seem like they're going to actually be in the finals, which is exciting. But of course we have to talk about the Lakers.

Cause we got Claire here who, you know, great Lakers coverage. LeBron rumored to be planning to opt in this summer. Yes. I feel like LeBron currently is underrated once again. Oh, 1,000%. Yeah. Because of how the season ended, by the way, by Lakers fans.

Full disclosure, Claire. So I feel like Jack is going here. I'm going to tell him myself. I am not underrating LeBron. I merely stated that in the event that he wanted to move on for his final season and go back to Cleveland, I would support him in his dreams. That's all. I agree with that. I'm currently like tempering my rage because I was listening to Bill Simmons this morning and he was ranking his top 15 players heading into next season and he didn't even have LeBron in the top 15.

Not in the top 15. And I was like- Hit Steph at like 8 or 7. And I was like, what? Can we make the math, math, the fact that this man was second team all NBA, which just by definition, theoretically makes you a top 10 player in the NBA if you're just going by the numbers of all NBA as theoretically the best 15 players in the league. And then he doesn't even make your top 15, even with a spot vacated by Jason Tatum, who he left off due to injury. Cause he'll be out for all of next season.

So I'm like, make the math math that LeBron is somehow now a worse NBA player than Jalen Williams and Carl Anthony Towns and like. Carl Anthony Towns was wild to me. His top 15 over LeBron James. I saw I saw people saying Kat has like had a great season. I've seen him play really well in the playoffs. I've seen him play not so well in the playoffs. And I'm here to tell you that I would take LeBron James over that. But yeah, that that, that was interesting.

I feel like intense recency bias. Well, it was a bold chance. Kind of the king of recency bias, which is what I tried to tell myself as I was like going into a blind rage. But yeah, no, I do think LeBron is just sort of like the last few years, there's been this rhythm of like he is Consistently underrated in the offseason due to his age Yeah, then he spends an entire NBA season showing that his age is like not nearly as much of a factor as the like theoretical Narrative would have you believe as people are like surely not this time

They're like like Bill's reasoning was like, well, he's going to be 41. I'm like, well, he was 40 and he just made second team all NBA. Did you know how old he was last season? It's crazy. I have a theory to that. It's all the lost guys like me that are like, well, I know how I feel in my 40s. I don't know a way that I can do this. It's almost as if LeBron James is a unique physical specimen that is not a direct

one-for-one representation of other people who are 40 plus. But I'm just going to need to see him do it more. You know, like he did it as a 40 year old that one season. So defying expectations. But I agree with you that if the Cleveland thing happens, I think, you know, it would be, there's plenty of reasons for him to want to play for Cleveland versus LA, like, not the least of which is that the Eastern Conference looks like it's going to be as weak as it's ever been next year. So that would be fun. Yeah.

I think I support that on the mainly on the basis that it would be so cute. If you want to be so actually, I think that you're onto something there, even though I know it's sort of tongue in cheek, because I think people have asked me, like, where would Lebron go and whatever and what I've said to them every time. And this isn't like reporting. This is just conjecture based on following him very closely is that I think he's so preoccupied with narrative and I think that's super important to him. And I really don't see him ending his career anywhere besides LA unless it fits

like the narrative arc of his career that he's trying to create. And I could really see like a end it where I started it and it were all began just a kid from Akron, you know, type narrative arc. So I think if he's going to leave LA, which I haven't really heard anything to make me believe that that's the case. I think it would be Cleveland if I had to guess, but I haven't heard honestly anything that makes me believe that he would be leaving. The only thing is just like if you're watching the Lakers and watching the sort of trajectory of the team, if he wants to win a ring next year in his theoretical potential last

year in the league, like I just based on the moves the Lakers can make right now, like and how good the West is and how much even better it's potentially going to be next season. Like it's an uphill, it's going to be an uphill climb for them to become contenders with what they have to work with right now, I think. And I feel like he's best served right now, like what he did defensively towards the end of this season where he just suddenly became a stopper and like was just awesome all over the boards and stuff was like, it's amazing to see that he can do that.

But I feel like he might be better served on a team like Cleveland where he's just like, there's an offensive weapon and you know, Mobley is backing him up. Yeah, it'd be cool to not have to be the defense at 41 years old. Like, that would be sick, I would imagine. Yeah.

Yeah. Big news, though. There's a picture of Luca where he's looking slim and trim. So that's the other big Lakers news. Are you guys buying it? He did look slim. He looked trim as hell. Yeah, he looked great. I mean, that additive free European food can do the body good. Is that what's happening? He's been back home for a while, I think. Yeah, I don't think he, to my knowledge, he spends his

off season not in the United States. But yeah, I mean, I think, you know, he's got to be on a mission, at least a revenge mission, like whatever, however that manifests for him, whether that's like, you know, putting the time and energy into getting in better shape or whatever it is. But like, there's no way he's going to be going into his first full season, having been traded from the Mavericks without being on like a violent mission to prove Nico Harrison wrong, you know, like that just seems inevitable. So I wouldn't be surprised at all if he got in really great shape this summer.

People need to just start seeding, like being like Cooper Flag, a lot of people are calling him the new Luca. People are saying that that trade actually makes a lot of sense now when you look back at it. The Mavericks have been doing that for freaking six months, just like dragging his name through the mud and leaking every like besmirching story that you could possibly imagine.

Like he has all the fodder that he needs. Do you remember, you know what it feels like? Do you remember that one Kobe commercial from back in the day when it was like, it shows him in training and it was like all of the different articles, all of the different headlines, all of the different, you know, like rebuttals to, you know, his greatness or whatever. And it was essentially him saying like, you know, like, I'm going to use this as motivation. Just basically just put up all of Nico's and all of Dallas's, you know, comments and leaks over the last six months to your point. And, you know, I can't see how he's not going to be ready. Yeah, no, for sure.

Do they have moves? I don't do the homework of learning about the... The Lakers? Yeah, the apron, all that stuff. How do we feel? I would debunk one thing that I've heard Lakers fans say, which is like, oh, well, if LeBron walks and we'll have all this cap space to go sign whoever. There's two things to that, to debunk that myth. Thing number one,

the way that the collective bargaining agreement, et cetera, work, it's not like they just have access to all the money of LeBron's that was on the books. If he were to walk like, oh, he left. So now we have $50 million to play with. Like I think what it actually ends up being, if LeBron and Dorian Fannie Smith both decide not to opt in is I think they have total as far as like to stay under the taxpayer limit, it's like 16 million or 20 million or something like that. It's very little to work with. So it would not be to the Lakers benefit for LeBron not to opt into his contract.

Like if you're trying to say like, oh, that money could be better used elsewhere and he decides he wants to be traded because he does have a new trade clause. Then that money could be used for something else, but not just if he opts out. And then the other thing is I think there's been a lot of people being like, oh, like, go get this and go get that. They don't have a ton of like movable assets that are desirable or have like positive trade value.

Even like they have one first round pick left, but that first round pick is now of course worth a lot less than it was before Luca was there because theoretically they're going to be good for a while with such a young superstar. But yeah, so I think the average fan things they don't might maybe don't know a LeBron has a no trade clause. So he's only going to if he opts in, he can only get traded if he wants to. And he has to sign off on wherever that is. Number two, they don't have access to that salary. If he does opt out, that's not how the aprons work. I'm not going to get too far into the weeds there. And number three is like, they

probably have to get pretty much anything that they're going to want to get because of the aprons via trade. And they don't have a ton of super valuable trade assets. Ipso facto, dramatic, huge seismic moves this summer. Probably not in the cards, but I would have said that a Lucadantius trade mid-season wasn't in the cards either. Lakers fans love making a shopping list for you. They're like, let's go get me. And they have lots of proof that it works. So I was going to respond as a Lakers fan and say, so list for you. They're like, let's go get me. And they have lots of proof that it works. I was gonna respond as a Lakers fan and say,

so what you're saying is Austin Reeves is gone now. Okay, got it. All right. Get rid of him. What can we get? So I guess that's also another good, maybe I'm just here to debunk Lakers things. The other thing I would mention,

cause there's been so much talk about, I've heard talking heads be like, he's for sure gone this summer. I haven't heard that at all. What I would say about Austin is like what makes a lot more, he's on one of the best value contracts in the NBA right now. He's making, if he, he think he's making like sub $14 million at the moment. So for what he provides as like a bonafide third option, like that is crazy value. Obviously that crazy value would make makes him a more desirable trade candidate, except that he's up for an extension, which he's almost certainly

going to decline. He's going to become a free agent. He's going to want to get paid. He's going to command upwards of $30 million a year. And anyone who trades for him would know that. So it'd have to be a team, first of all, that's willing to pay him. So that eliminates some people. Second of all, the Lakers could actually, in my opinion, benefit way more for the reasons I said about the LeBron salary thing from keeping Austin, giving him whatever money he commands as a free agent next summer. And then if they want to make a trade, then they can get 30 to $40 million worth of player back for him.

Versus if they trade him right now because of the salary cap and how close they are to that will be to that second apron, they can't take back more salary than they give out. So they're going to have to get $14 million worth of NBA player back for Austin Reeves. And if you survey the market, even if you're just looking for a center, the caliber of player you're going to get back for $14 million is just not what Austin Reaves is bringing to your roster. So it's in the Lakers' best interest and all likelihood to keep him, give him whatever money he wants next summer when he's a free agent.

And then at that point, if they want to move on for him for a fit that they think is better next to Luca, it'll give them more salary flexibility to do so. I'd like $14 million worth of NBA player, please. Thank you very much. Can I get that thick sliced? I know, it's not a nice empathetic way to discuss human beings, love it. I mean, it does feel like the Laker fan way

where they're just like, all right, go out and get me Everything's an asset. $15 million of small forward, get me $30 million of backup center Center, and Point Guard. You guys need a dang point guard, it turns out. Let's take a quick break and we'll be right back and talk about the remaining teams and why point guards are suddenly so valuable. Made for This Mountain is a podcast that exists to empower listeners to rise above their struggles, break free from the chains of trauma, and silence the negative voices that have kept

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The American West with Dan Flores is the latest show from the Meat Eater Podcast Network, hosted by me, writer and historian Dan Flores, and brought to you by Velvet Buck. This podcast looks at a West available nowhere else. Each episode, I'll be diving into some of the lesser known histories of the West. I'll then be joined in conversation by guests such as Western historian, Dr. Randall Williams and bestselling author and meat eater founder,

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And it's going to take us to heal us. It's mental health awareness month. And on a recent episode of Just Heal with Dr. J, the incomparable Taraji P. Henson stopped by to discuss how she's discovered peace on her journey. So what I'm hearing you saying is healing is a part of us also reconnecting to our childhood in some sort. You said I look how youthful I look because I never let that little girl inside of me die. I go outside and run

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you can listen to Just Heal with Dr. J from the Black Effect Podcast Network on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. AT&T. Connecting changes everything. And we're back. And yeah, I mean, it's 3-1, both series.

I wish it wasn't. The next Pacers series has been super fun. I wish it was going the distance. Maybe the Knicks turn a corner, but it certainly didn't look like it in game four. That felt like a pretty definitive win for the Pacers. It doesn't feel, I don't know, I just don't feel great about where the Knicks are at right now. Especially like the feels like even though Brunson is a bucket when you most need a bucket and he has scored 43, 36, 23, 31 in the series, the game where he scored 23 and was in foul trouble was the game where they made a run.

They seem to have made more runs when he's out. I think it's because the Pacers seem to match Halliburton with him and so Halliburton might not be in as much when he's out. But it just, I don't know, there's something about this matchup where, and just the speed with which the Pacers move the ball around and, you know, Brunson's defensive limitations that it just like, I feel like it's a riddle that the Knicks still haven't quite solved. And nobody has really. I mean, the Pacers feel like they're about to go to the finals and it's, I'm convinced.

Like I don't, I don't feel, it doesn't feel fluke to me. Like they feel like the best team I've seen in the East. Yeah, for sure. I mean, their path was bonafide. Like they got through Giannis and also all of the, this has been in five, like they've gotten decisively through all of these rounds. You know, they got through Giannis, they got through Cavs, the Cavs were ostensibly the best team in the East all year long. And then the Knicks, you know, who just took down the defending champs

and were kind of on fire and on a roll. They seem to be making like relatively quick work of them as well. So like that's kind of hard to argue with. I would push back on you saying that Game 4 seemed super definitive. Like, I think all these games have been, you know, like I don't feel super convinced about either team in any win. I mean, if you look at it,

like the Knicks should have won game one. Like were it not for Andrew Neesman, absolute heroics, the likes of which we've almost never seen, I think in the NBA playoffs, like they would have won game one. You know, so. I thought he was just a nepo baby because his great grandfather invented the game, you know. He had an advantage.

You know, I think this could easily be a 2-2 series and that's kind of how Game Four felt to me. Like there were so many moments where the Knicks just weren't able to capitalize on the momentum. Like it felt like every time they were kind of taking control of the game, they let go of the rope in one way or another. But I didn't feel like, oh, the Pacers are definitively the better team here. I just felt like, oh, the Pacers are playing just better enough tonight to get this win. And I feel like every single game has been like a coin flip, really,

which is what's made this series so fun. But I don't think the Knicks should overreact to this series and be like, oh, we need to tear this all down. We need to get this whole project. I think there's a universe where, you know, the Pacers aren't the team of destiny that it feels like they are this year

where every bounce goes their way. Every, you know, every shot that needs to go in goes in, where all those variants elements are not, you know, not in their favor, where the Knicks are going to the NBA Finals. Like they are right there. They are so close. And I think we have sort of like a tendency to overthink the playoffs sometimes when like a bounce doesn't go our way, when like the controllables are what you can control obviously and then there's like the luck, fate, destiny, je ne sais quoi of the playoffs and like certain teams just kind of feel like they have that and I feel like that's how the Pacers feel right now like I don't think the Knicks are far away. I do feel like their weaknesses have been exposed

specifically in this Pacers series which is that because Brunson isn't like a defensive minded garden, he kind of needs to be on the floor for them to be at their best. It is like a little bit of a liability to have another offensive first player like Kat on the floor with him. And your top two players are basically like offense first, like defensively lacking. And that's made their starting lineup have a horrible plus minus, and that's made it kind of hard for Tibbs to juggle lineup. So that would be where I think they could address in this off season. Like we need to surround Brunson should be the priority,

like with more defense. But besides that, I mean, I think they're right there. And like the Celtics are a non-issue for the next year. Giannis might be leaving the conference. So I wouldn't like overreact to this Pacers series. I would be, this is the farthest they've gotten in, you know, my lifetime. So like, I think they should, they're on the right track.

There's just tweaks that need to be made. Of the two teams between the Knicks and the Wolves Obviously the two teams that are both down you have three one, which do you feel more confidently and at least extending? This this series it's sending this year I think the Knicks have a better chance than then the the Wolves just because I think the Wolves have looked Than the the wolves just because I think the wolves have looked relatively outclassed in most of these games except for that One game where they absolutely blew them out and it was just like the upside down Um, yeah, but I would say for the most part in these games It's more what you were kind of referencing where it's like Oh one of these teams is clearly better than the other and I I just personally feel like these the Eastern Conference

Finals the reason they've been so fun is because it just personally feel like these, the Eastern Conference finals, the reason they've been so fun is because it really does feel like a coin flip series. It feels like two teams that are both really good in very opposite ways and like play very different styles and the clash of the styles has just sort of been like the Pacers have been able to impose their style on the series more than the Knicks have been able to do so. And, you know, at the end of the day, their best handful of players have played better than the Knicks handful of players in that series, but it does feel like a

more closely matched series. And if the Knicks were able to, like, for example, command the boards, like they should be doing because that's more fundamental to their identity than the Pacers, like it could be a different series. So to be fair, I don't honestly really think either of these series are going the distance, but if I had to guess, I would take the Knicks over the Wolves in that scenario. That's fair.

Yeah. Yeah, I guess not definitive necessarily, but just like they do seem to have like more bullets. Uh, they, they seem to have like more ways to win for sure. Well, they do. They're deeper. Yeah. I feel like they're like, they have the better coaching going right now. The Pacers. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Um, which is funny because am I, so I know that we're having like a Carlisle Renaissance right now and you know deservedly so he's been awesome. I'm like I'm old enough to remember last year when he made some like horrible

coaching blunders in the playoffs and we were like what are you doing? Like the it was they were on the other end of some like comebacks and like unlikely things last year so obviously he you know they grew from that and I'm not putting that all on Carlisle cause it was a young team and you make mistakes as a young team. But I remember having conversations like as a guest on podcast last season. The games passed him by. Yeah. Yeah.

And being like, Oh, he's like messing up like kind of a lot. Like this is a little embarrassing. Like does Carlisle still have his fastball? Like what's going on? So it's kind of interesting that now the narrative it's like, it's where is such a recency bias, like economy of media, but like now every conversation is like, he's a bonafide hall of fame, NBA coach, is he one of the top four coaches in the league? Like the conversation just hinges so much on this run they've been on, which is understandable, but it's just like, he, he got out coached in a couple of

series, like, you know what I mean? understandable, but it's just like he got out coached in a couple of series. Like, you know what I mean? Yeah. Last season, the people were coming back on them and he was like, we should do that. And also, like people, when he saw all those people, like making shots to come back, he was like, we should like do better shot making, I think. Being even older than you and being able to remember like a decade ago. He does seem to be the only coach that I can remember where it was like, oh, I think they won.

Like, you know, the team won because like they didn't have as much talent, but they won because like they had like schemed in a way like that in Dallas when they beat LeBron where they just like broke LeBron's brain. And I don't think that was all him necessarily at all. But he's a really good coach. Yeah. But like going into the playoffs every year, I'm always like, well, and they do have Carlisle, which is, you know, that's that could be an advantage. He's also just such like, just knowing people in the coaching world. My dad worked for him one time. He's like a national, I guess he's like in Texas, one of the top table tennis players

for his age, a classically trained pianist. He's like a scratch golfer who makes his own golf clubs. He's just like this like, he's just like, he just never sleeps and is just like a weird genius. Looks like Jim Carrey. And also my other friend who's a coach told me that one time they were getting lunch and he ordered a graveyard. Do you know what that is? No, I don't. It's like when you get, you ask somebody to go to the soda fountain and just put every

different type of soda in it. Like a child, it's a child's drink. And he as a grownup was like, yeah, give me the graveyard. Anyways, OKC, I mean, what do we think? Is it's like, there's been a lot of talk about, you know, Ant isn't showing up. I feel like, I feel for anybody who has to go against that OKC perimeter defense. And I feel like I feel for anybody who has to go against that OKC perimeter defense.

I feel like what we've seen from Ant, again, who is like so much younger than I feel like people remember, has been a step forward. Like compared to what he did in the Western Conference Finals last year, which again, he's in the Western Conference Finals again, with probably less finals last year, which again, he's in the Western Conference finals again with probably less talent around him. I've been impressed with what I see in places and then there's definitely been some rough spots too. But yeah, I think the thunder of to answer your first question, like kind of like they've answered every question that people had about them going into this postseason, myself included.

It was just like they are. It's so rare for the youngest team in the league to be the best team in the league. Like that is just really hard to compute. So it was sort of like, I'll believe it when I see it, you know, with them, even though they had shown us all regular season that they were the best team in basketball, like with a bullet really. Um, and I think we've kind of like, not to sound too like saccharin, but I think we've kind of watched them grow up over the course of these playoffs.

Like I do feel like they look like a different team, different caliber of team now than they did in round one. And even for the majority of round two, like I think that test from Denver really brought out their maturity. And it was the first time all season that they had really been sort of rattled. And I think you kind of watched them grow up from that. And they just look so mature and poised and different in this Minnesota series. Partially, I think because Denver was like a little bit worse

of a matchup for them than Minnesota, but partially because they've been tested. Now they've gone through. They've gotten further in the playoffs at this point than they ever have before. And they just look ready to me like I wasn't sure if they were. But at this point than they ever have before. And they just look ready to me. Like I, I wasn't sure if they were, but at this point I would be really surprised if either team from the East beats them in the finals. Like I think they've, they're, I think they're ready. One of my favorite things is watching a young team develop in the way that you

just described because like I love watching how a team responds to getting punched in the mouth. You know, they go, they go, if I'm not mistaken, they went down to one to Denver. Did they not in that series? I think they felt like it. They lost game one. But I think did they not then win the next two? I might be remembering incorrectly, but I could be off.

But they were obviously challenged along the way and seeing them get off the mat each time and seeing them not just do that, but respond and say like, okay, yeah, we got this. Seeing Jaylen Williams, who's found his offensive groove again over the course of this postseason, it's inspiring, but you're exactly right. They have been the best team. It was really just upon us sitting back saying like, oh, you have to show us. And clearly they were ready to do that. Yeah. I think it was mainly me challenging them that did it.

It was just, you were alone in your concerns. No one else had any. Still don't see it. But with Minnesota, I think, yeah, I'm actually writing on that right now. And like, I think we have this sort of tendency to project expectations on a team or a player. And then when they don't meet those expectations, the sky is falling. And it's like, everyone was like, you know, making comparisons to Michael Jordan and like

saying it was the next phase of the league. And the truth is, he's still 23 years old and he's just not there yet. But the fact that he's already been the best player on a Western Conference Finals team two years running is like a legit accomplishment. And I have no doubt that he will at some point make the NBA finals and win a championship. Like he's that good. Um, but I do, I think he's had a subpar supporting cast both times. Like I just, like, I know they're deep with, you know,

as far as like role player talent, but his like number two in both cases, I don't think was a like good enough and be like the ideal fit next to him in either case. And then I think Rudy Gobert is like a really clunky fit with Anthony Edwards. And I've always felt that way. And I never was, you know, in favor of that trade. I think it's really, really there's like the floor spacing is obviously lacking. And it's especially lacking when Julius Randall is in Osho, which has happened two out of the four games in the series. But I just, this is not the ideal team build around Anthony Edwards, I don't think. And I don't know how long it's going to take them to get there. But I think it's a little bit like unfair to expect a

Championship when the team is still like quite a clunky fit even though they are deep and they are good and you know What not and they're? Rudy Gobert is a great regular season defensive player But like he's just proven that in the playoffs There is a minimum of one series per year where he is basically unplayable Like it has been true his entire career like regardless of how far his team goes in the playoffs there's a series where Rudy go bare gets played off the floor and like The matter what is he their second highest paid player or third highest plate? So it's just that's just tough to overcome. I think

um All right from one player that's openly disliked by players Around the league to another I do just want to talk about Halliburton And specifically, all right. I actually just want to ask this question broadly. Is it a coincidence? I actually just want to ask this question broadly. Is it a coincidence that three of the four final teams that in a like playoffs that has felt like a sort of changing of the guard where like I feel

like a lot you know these are a lot of young teams, a lot of people who you know haven't done it before. Three of the four final teams are led by scoring point guards. Like Halliburton is scoring a lot right now. It feels like point guards have suddenly... I remember two years ago watching the Suns be like, we don't need a point guard. We're just like Devin Booker, our shooting guard will bring the ball to the court. And that didn't go well. The Lakers kind of tried like a similar thing at various points this year. And I just feel like we're seeing a thing happen where like point guard is suddenly incredibly important at a time when it was supposed to be becoming less and less important.

I mean, I would say like the point guards that are left are so different that I don't incredibly important at a time when it was supposed to be becoming less and less important. I mean, I would say like the point guards that are left are so different that I don't know if like you could take it as a referendum on the position, like the version of a point guard that Jalen Brunson is and the version of a point guard that Tyrese Halliburton is, or like universes apart. I would say like Tyrese Halliburton in and of himself might be a referendum on the importance of the point guard position because he is like a true blue old

school run the offense, like getting myself looks and scoring is like bottom of the totem pole of importance type of point guard. Like he's like a quarterback out there. Like he's quarterbacking their offense. He's dictating the pace. He's dictating the style. He's getting people involved. That is like a dying breed, I would say in the NBA. Like there aren't many point guards like that left. Whereas I would say like Jalen Brunson is more of like a new school point guard where it's like, well, by de facto, because he's the shortest

player on the floor, like he kind of falls into the position of the one, but his facilitation is not why he's there. He's there to score. He's a score first player. Um, so I don't really think it's almost like in name only, they're the same type of players. So I don't really think it can serve as like a, this is the future of the league. But I will say that like Tyrese Halliburton has shown that like, we don't need to kill off the old school version of a point guard so fast. It just needs to evolve. Cause to your point, he can score at a high clip

if he needs to. He just doesn't choose to do that first cause that's not his priority on the floor. And I think we kind of like threw the baby out with the bathwater, with the point guard position. And we're like, well, we don't need someone to orchestrate the offense cause we just need one through five like spaced out.

Everyone needs to be able to score where it's like the more evolved version of that thinking is like. Everyone needs to be able to score where it's like the more evolved version of that thinking is like everyone needs to be able to score, but it's still really, really valuable to have like a super high level offensive, you know, creator, facilitator, orchestrator on the floor. For sure. So Claire, just really quickly, we were talking beforehand, how do you think Sacramento feels about getting rid of a six, five,

probably good, right? How do you think Sacramento feels about getting rid of a six, five, six, five? I mean, it's crazy because now they're talking about, you know, moving off of sub bonus. Like that's those are the rumblings I'm hearing. And that's who they got back in that because they had, they had, they sort of like Sophie's choice. They had two like in their estimation, like equally high level point guard prototypes of Dearon and Fox and Tyrese Halliburton or guard prototypes, I guess, because I don't think Fox is even playing the point guard in San Antonio. And they chose Fox. And now not only is Deer and Fox not on the Kings anymore, but the guy they got back for Tyrese Halliburton is probably about to not be on the Kings anymore. So they didn't choose very well. I would say glass half full for the Kings.

They've taken so much flack for their drafting over the years. And like the problem isn't the drafting, I think is what history is telling us. Like they can pick them. It's just knowing who to keep and how to keep them, build around them. That does probably make them feel better.

That's more. Yeah. Well, I just remember, I feel like every NBA draft I've been cognizant of, it's like, oh, the Kings again, they messed up the draft again or whatever, and it's like, they're drafting fine. It's definitely more like what happens after that.

Then they're like, yeah, we kinda hate this guy, actually. No, I'm sure, I mean, I'm so glad that Tyrese Halliburton ended up where he did because the Pacers obviously saw something in him and Rick Carlisle saw something in him where they're like, this guy's style of play and the way he plays basketball, like, let's just go with that. Let's just build around that. And, and I think, you know, him having like, I've heard people like wish casting, like, like what if he had gotten drafted to Golden State or whatever, and he might've fit in nicely to the Steve Kerr style of play, you know,

of the sort of egalitarian, like the beautiful game, like whatever, but I'm just glad that he basically got handed the keys to his own franchise to play like Tyrese Halliburton basketball, because I don't think there were that many teams in the league that would have done that. And obviously it's paying dividends. Absolutely. All right. Let's take one more break. And when we come back, it's time for the rabbit fire round of questioning. We'll be right back.

Made for This Mountain is a podcast that exists to empower listeners to rise above their struggles, break free from the chains of trauma, and silence the negative voices that have kept them small. Through raw conversations, real stories, and actionable guidance, you can learn to face the mountain that is in front of you. You will never be able to change or grow through the thing that you refuse to identify. The thing that you refuse to say, hey, this is my mountain. This is the struggle. This is the thing that's in front of me. You can't make that mountain move without actually diving into it. May is Mental Health Awareness Month, a time

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by me, writer and historian Dan Flores, and brought to you by Velvet Buck. This podcast looks at a West available nowhere else. Each episode, I'll be diving into some of the lesser known histories of the West. I'll then be joined in conversation by guests such as Western historian Dr. Randall Williams and best-selling author and meat-eater founder Stephen Rinella. I'll correct my kids now and then where they'll say when cave people were here and I'll say it seems like the ice age people that were here didn't have a real affinity for caves. So join me starting Tuesday, May 6th where we'll delve into stories of the West and come

to understand how it helps inform the ways in which we experience the region today. Listen to The American West with Dan Flores on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Clayton English. I'm Greg Glodd. And this is season two of the War on Drugs podcast. We are back. In a big way. In a very big way. Real people, real perspectives. It's kind of star-studded a little bit man. We got Ricky Williams, NFL

player, Heisman Trophy winner. It's just the compassionate choice to allow players all reasonable means to care for themselves. Music stars Marcus King, John Osborne from Brothers Osborne. We have this misunderstanding of what this quote unquote drug man. Benny the Butcher. Brent Smith from Shinedown. Got B-Real from Cypress Hill. NHL enforcer Riley Cote.

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how she's discovered peace on her journey. So what I'm hearing you saying is healing is a part of us also reconnecting to our childhood in some sort. You said I look how youthful I look because I never let that little girl inside of me die. I go outside and run outside with the dogs. I still play like a kid. I laugh, you know, I love jokes.

I love funny. I love laughing. I laugh at myself. I don't take myself too seriously. That's the stuff that keeps you young and stops you from being so hard. To hear this and more things on the journey of healing, you can listen to Just Heal with Dr. J from the Black Effect Podcast Network on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

AT&T, connecting changes everything. ["Fire Round of Questioning"] And we're back, and it is the rapid fire round of questioning. Claire, we're gonna fire some questions at you. You are just going to give us your first answer. We're trying to keep this moving. It is known far and wide as the fastest segment in podcasting. So we've got a reputation to uphold. Don't mess this up.

Don't mess this up for us, please. Brian, could you do me a favor actually? Could you start the clock? Okay, cool, thank you. Thank you, Brian. Opposite world. All right, do you wanna start off Jabari or would you like me to go first?

We can bounce on these. Okay. All right, so clear, here we go. This player or that player, which would you rather see? Shea playing back in the nineties or prime and healthy Penny Hardaway in today's game? Shea in the nineties would be fun. I feel like he would, he would fit in really nicely in his play style. And it's just like a more evolved version of that game. So I'd like to see it. Halliburton on those 90s Pacers teams or Prime

Reggie joining this current squad and keep in mind you do if he's on the squad, he can't be doing the game. That was actually my answer. I would pick Reggie. It's the same reason I was excited when Jeff and Gundy got a coaching job. I was like, yeah, like keep these guys busy. It's like handing a toddler like a Nintendo switch or whatever. You're just like, just keep these guys busy. It's like handing a toddler, like a Nintendo switch or whatever, you're just like, just go sit over there. Like I feel like this has to be hard for Pacers fans because it's like, you're like watching, your team's finally making it

and it's just hard for people to root for them. Keeping it going. Jalen, Jalen Bunsen, Jalen Brunson. The Bunsen burner. The Bunsen burner, exactly. Jalen Bronson transported back To join peak Ewing in 94 or prime Pat jumping into DeLorean and being available for this current series Prime Pat would be pretty freaking handy right now for the New York Knicks. I would Minutes to the tape I Tibbs just doesn't play him.

He has him and just doesn't play him. No, Tibbs would love to play him because he would be older. He loves to play him 40 minutes a game, 45. Yeah, he would be playing 46 minutes. Alright. And finally, Ant alongside KG for that 2004 run. Or KG lining up beside Gobert for the current team or maybe in place of Gobert.

I mean, in place of Gobert like 10 times out of 10, what, give me that one. Give me like Kevin Garnett instead of Rudy Gobert option like on any team at any time. Like that's great. Yeah. That is fair. Give us your prediction on these following players and where they are next season.

Giannis. San Antonio. Wow. Zion. Williamson. The New Orleans Pelicans. John Morant. Man, I think he stays at Grizzly for now. Kevin Durant. Houston Rockets. We did make these rhymes. Houston Rockets. KD with the Rockets. That would be so fun. It would be so fun.

He's exactly what they need. It's like, it's a beautiful fit. And LeBron James. Los Angeles Lakers. Yeah. I think he's going to stay. In your face, Jabari. It happens.

It happens. it happens. It happens. Sorry, the best player of all time stays on your team, sometimes it happens. One last run. All right, and finally, we wanna tap into your musical knowledge and expertise. With the Kendrick and SZA co-headlining tour

currently taking place, we wanna hear your choice for a tour that blends genres and like has two headliners just trading on and off. Who are you going with? Ooh. Well, the thing about the SZA and Kendrick tour is they have a lot of songs together. So that's like, is that a prerequisite?

Like, do they have to have shared songs? They can or? They could record songs for this tour together based on your direction You have a ton of power in this scenario man Well Beach House is like my favorite band of all time so I want that to be one of the artists I mean it feels like a cop-out to use Kendrick, but like Beach House and Kendrick It'd be like a fire tour. I would love that so much. And they would be a really cool collab, I think. They could make some really cool songs together. And Kendrick has sampled them before.

He sampled them on Money Trees. So they're off to a good start. I give you so much credit. I didn't realize that was them. I can tell you right now, I absolutely thought, okay, so Tiny This and... No, you didn't go there. Oh. Okay. I mean, I would, so tiny this and, and, no, you didn't go there. Okay. I mean, I would love that, but like, yeah, I feel like it's like the, what are they, isn't it with awards voting, it's like,

you have to like leave yourself out there. Recuse yourself. That's fair. That's fair. Nah, not on that, not on this, not on this show. We're crooked as hell. Well, if I get to include myself, me and Jay-Z on tour, let's do that.

That would be sick. The fans have been asking. That's the answer. That is the answer. That is the answer. That is correct. Thank you, Jabari, for leading her to the right answer. That just checking our scorecard and yes, every single one of those was the correct answer. Congratulations returning champion Claire DeLune. Thank you so much for joining us. Where can people find you, follow you, hear you, listen to you, all that good stuff?

Well, basketball wise, you can find my stuff at The Guardian, theguardian.com. And also I tweet about basketball and like post about across all social media at Claire MPLS. Music wise, you can find me under Tiny Deaths wherever you stream music. Yeah, you can give us a follow on Twitter. I'm at Jack underscore O'Brien. Miles is at Miles of Grey. I'm at Jack Obi-Wan on Blue Sky and Miles is also at Miles of Grey. He has good social media continuity. I have the opposite. Jabari, where can people find you? Easy peasy. Jabari A. Davis on both Twitter and

Blue Sky. Alright and that's gonna do it. Another one in the books. Swish! We did it! We did it! Back next week. Kobe. LeBron! No Kobe. No come on. I know a lot of cops. They get asked all the time, have you ever had to shoot your gun? Sometimes the answer is yes. But there's a company dedicated to a future where the answer will always be no. This is Absolute Season One, Taser Incorporated.

I get right back there and it's bad. Listen to Absolute Season One, Taser Incorporated on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Why is a soap opera western like Yellowstone so wildly successful? The American West with Dan Flores is the latest show from the MeatEater podcast network. So join me starting Tuesday, May 6th, where we'll delve into stories of the West and come to understand how it helps inform the ways in which we experience the region today. Listen to The American West with Dan Flores on the iHeartRadio app, Apple

podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. In 2020, a group of young women found themselves in an AI-fueled nightmare. Someone was posting photos. It was just me naked. Well, not me, but me with someone else's body parts. This is Levittown, a new podcast from iHeart Podcasts, Bloomberg, and Kaleidoscope, about the rise of deepfake pornography

and the battle to stop it. Listen to Levittown on Bloomberg's Big Take podcast. Find it on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Clayton English. I'm Greg Glod. And this is season two of The War on Drugs by Ken. Last year, a lot of the problems of the drug war.

This year, a lot of the biggest names in music and sports. This is kind of star-studded a little bit, man. We met them at their homes. We met them at their recording studios. Stories matter, and it brings a face to them. It makes it real. It really does. It makes it real. Listen to new episodes of the War on Drugs Podcast Season 2 on the iHeart Radio app,

Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. This is an iHeart Podcast.