The Daily Zeitgeist - Redlining 9.0 04.02.24

Episode Date: April 2, 2024

In episode 1651, Jack and Miles are joined by affordable housing advocate, Yusuf Dahl, to discuss… Yusuf's Work On Overturning The Thurmond Amendment, Modern Day Redlining and more! LISTEN: AMAMA by CrumbSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

I'm Jess Casavetto, executive producer of the hit Netflix documentary series Dancing for the Devil, the 7M TikTok cult. And I'm Clea Gray, former member of 7M Films and Shekinah Church. And we're the host of the new podcast, Forgive Me for I Have Followed. Together, we'll be diving even deeper into the unbelievable stories behind 7M Films and Shekinah Church. Listen to Forgive Me for I Have Followed on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, I'm Gianna Pradenti. And I'm Jemay Jackson-Gadsden. We're the hosts of Let's Talk Offline from LinkedIn News and iHeart Podcasts. There's a lot to figure out when you're just

starting your career. That's where we come in. Think of us as your work besties you can turn to for advice. And if we don't know the answer, we bring in people who do, like negotiation expert Maury Tahiripour. If you start thinking about negotiations as just a conversation, then I think it sort of eases us a little bit. Listen to Let's Talk Offline on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Keri Champion, and this is season four of Naked Sports.

Up first, I explore the making of a rivalry. Kaitlyn Clark versus Angel Reese. Every great player needs a foil. I know I'll go down in history. People are talking about women's basketball just because of one single game. Clark and Reese have changed the way we consume women's sports. Listen to the making of a rivalry. Kaitlyn Clark versus Angel Reese on the iHeart on the iheart radio app apple podcast or wherever you

get your podcast presented by elf beauty founding partner of iheart women's sports hello the internet and welcome to season 332 episode 2 of their daily zeitgeist a production of iheart radio this is a podcast where we take a deep dive into america's shared consciousness and it is tuesday april 2nd 2024 the day after april fool's day yeah we're in we we all admit they got our ass they did get our ass in some cases i i i went to 7-eleven and i demanded they give me this the hot dog flavored sparkling water and they called the cops. Yeah, that video is going viral. You really? Well, yeah, probably should have kept my clothes on, but I was really upset.

Yeah. But yeah, I will say also April 2nd is National DIY Day for all of us that try to do it ourselves. National Ferret Day, National Peanut Butter and Jelly Day. And also I'm wondering if because this is the day after fooling people and being very deceptive, it's also National Reconciliation Day. Yeah. I got a lot of apologizing to do. Oh, no. And I've got a lot of forgiving to do.

Exactly. If you heard our trending episode yesterday, I wasn't kind about my kids. April Fool's pranks. Yes. I'll show you the sign, Miles. Pee on me. Wow. Not nice. Yeah. pranks yes i'll show you the sign miles pee on me wow not not nice yeah so it's written with gusto too i can tell exclamation point yeah pee on me it was that it was after it kicked me so they

built to it it wasn't just like you know this guy is a piss pig like a little bit of soccer action yeah kick them around uh but yeah so we we made it through april fool's day and to uh peanut butter and jelly day peanut butter and jelly yeah together never never heard of such a thing yeah that's that's wild my name is jack o'brien aka kangaroo jack o'brien yes i am also known as Kangaroo Jack O'Brien pretty frequently. I'm compared to that film because I often lure you in with the promise of a rapping kangaroo, and then it turns out it's just

something that I dreamed. That's not in the movie, huh? It is. It's a dream sequence. Oh, but it's not about a rapping kangaroo. It's not about a rapping kangaroo. Who's in that? Anthony Edwards? Anthony Edwards and the kid who played the chubby kid from... Jerry O'Connell.

Stand by me. Jerry O'Connell. Yeah, yeah. Yep. Oh, Michael Shannon is also in it? Wow. You get an early Michael Shannon? Wow.

Wow. Wow. The intensity. The intensity. Just bringing the early Michael Shannon intensity to Kangaroo Jack. I kangaroo jack this rapping kangaroo to be very entertaining you're like oh god sorry michael shannon let's move on that aka courtesy of the frequent news ghost ah hey makes sense that they're good at aka is because their handle an aka of this show everybody's always saying hey have you checked out the frequent news go i mean the daily zeitgeist yes yes anyways i'm thrilled to be joined as always

by my co-host mr miles gray hey it's miles gray aka oh i have unbreakable glasses oh oh i dare Oh, I dare you to try. I don't care that they just broke anyway. I don't care about that. Shout out to the Ray J's unbreakable sunglasses video where he's asking Speedy to break his sunglasses because they're unbreakable. And then when he breaks them, he said, I don't care. It's just the best, just the best sequence of events. Shout out to Max R on the Discord for memorializing that in one of my favorite Weezer songs. So, appreciate it.

Amazing. Well, we're thrilled, Miles, to be joined in our third seat by an affordable housing advocate who is working to help address modern-day redlining by trying to overturn the Thurmond Amendment. Please welcome to the show, Yusuf Dahl! I appreciate that. I wish I had an AKA I could reference but it's just Yusuf. That's fine. Sometimes the name is enough. It precedes you.

Valley of the Dahl? Yeah. I don't know. Let's not do that. Dahl parts by Hole? To bring it back to the 90s? Is that the one? Someday, yeah, we'll think.

Is that Doll Parts? I don't know, man. Not a lot of Courtney Love Cobain fans in here, huh? Okay. I was Cobain, but I think Hole went a little too hard for me. Look, man, I'm still getting over this idea of peanut butter and jelly together.

I mean, that's crazy. Oh, yeah. You will ache like Ike. That's doll parts. Doll parts. Thank you, 1994 brain. You're welcome. But, Yusuf, where are you coming to us from? Allentown, Pennsylvania.

Okay. Okay. I mean, it's kind of a seminal place in terms of housing when we're talking about housing, right? Certainly. I think it's the type of city that's emblematic of a lot of our cities across the country that really are a tale of two cities, right? that really are a tale of two cities, right? There's places in this community that are vibrant and thriving, and there's a lot of other parts in the city that have, quite frankly, been left behind. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, man. I'm really looking forward to our discussion because as you were saying before you came on, when we have these guests on and talk about a specific subject, I mean, just the Thurman Amendment just opens the door to so many different conversations, whether it's about our carceral system, whether it's about housing, how we view housing, and how America even does its threat assessments. And they typically

just end up being just overtly racist. And this is no exception. This is no exception. What is the attitude in Allentown toward the Billy Joel song? One of ambivalence. Okay. Because, well, it's a good song, right? So I think it's kind of hard not to like the song. But I think the city has really done a tremendous job of reinventing itself. And so, you know, there's the sense that that song really doesn't represent the spirit and the future of Allentown today.

So there's a level of ambivalence. But it's Billy Joel, so you can't really, you know, hate it too much. Yeah. I mean, it opens up. Well, we're living here in Allentown. And, you know, I mean, those are the only lyrics that I know. So I was going to try and say something profound about it, but I can't remember any of the other parts.

Something about a factory town. There you go. Welcome to our podcast, Yusuf. It's called Trying to Remember What That Song About. Just incisive commentary like, well, we're living here in Allentown, is a lyric in Allentown. There it is.

All right, great. Well, we're going to in Allentown is a lyric in Allentown. There it is. All right, great. Well, we're going to talk about housing in a moment. But before we get into our expert guests area of expertise, we do like to get to know you a little bit better by asking what's either something from your search history that's revealing about who you are or something that you have recently screencapped short for screen captured that is revealing about screenshot it even screenshot it. Yeah. So, so my last screenshot was actually a list of Republicans on the financial services committee. So directly related to this work on the, the Thurman amendment, as I'm sure we're going to get into, uh, this is, this is going to be a big month because we have legislation that's going to be introduced, but we're trying to make it bipartisan.

And so I'm doing a lot of work trying to identify folks on the right who might be interested in this common sense reform to extend opportunity. How's it going? How are you feeling about that? You see any names on there that you're like, they seem to exist in a version of reality? I tend to be an optimistic person. I always feel like the thing with legislation is the key is to actually get in front of these people. So for me, the challenge is how do you look at this list and how do you mine your network to get in the door? Because you believe that if you can just get in front of these people and explain what you're trying to do, common sense will prevail and you'll get

through. Right. Do you think that's, I mean, I guess there's something with housing. How do you sort of tailor this argument to appeal to someone like Ron Johnson, who dealt in all kinds of really backwards thinking out loud when it comes to things like the carceral system or race and things like that? Do you have to is he actually like, oh, that's messed up like people who just had a drug charge can't get into housing? Like, yeah, I want to do that. Or is it or like, how do you thread that needle? Because from my perspective, I'm like, what do you tell Ron Johnson to try and get him to see the light in terms of something like this is common sense reform. Like that there's no net negative here. This is like about just like making things a little bit more equitable. And he'll be like, what is that woke? But yeah, I'm curious, what's the dance with

something like that? Well, so I think, first of all, you always have to contextualize this in the framework of opportunity, right? Because in theory, everybody wants to extend opportunity to people in this country. And so it was really about legislation like the Thurman Amendment denies people who've been justice impacted the ability to be judged based on market measures and assessments of risk. Right. So the market has a way of predicting or suggesting how reliable you're going to be as a creditor, right? So it's your credit score. It's your income history. There's a lot of different measures that objectively the market assigns to you to suggest your risk profile. The Thurman Amendment nullifies all of that. And so the case that I made was, hey, give these folks access to the free market and the free market mechanisms of risk like everyone else. And I made the analogy that I can literally go to a bank right now and borrow a million dollars.

I can do that. But I could not secure a townhome apartment because of my 25-year-old drug distribution conviction. That just didn't seem to make a lot of sense. Wow. Now, does that translate to actual support? lot of sense. Wow. Well, right. Now, does that translate to actual support? I mean, that's the thing, right? Like, I mean, anyone can sit across from you and say, yeah, that doesn't make sense.

But what you really need are folks who are going to put some capital on the table and help you affect this change. Yeah. Abstraction is the root of the problems that are happening where it's easier to just make somebody a concept that's on your screen or a number on a spreadsheet. And when you actually get in a room with a person and they have to deal with the fact that you are a human being,

at least for that time can make a big change but then after the fact it's a matter of like getting them not to go back to the comfortable thing of you know a system that seems to lend itself to just abstracting people and treating people as like values in a spreadsheet so So yeah, doing truly the difficult, important work. What is something that you think is underrated? I would say, and primarily because I'm a father of a 15-year-old, and I would say youth sports. So she plays a lot of sports, takes up a ton of my time,

but it really just gives her a great outlet to develop confidence, learn the priorities of discipline. And so I meet young people all the time who aren't in organized sports for a variety of reasons. And I just think we should do more of that. Like when I was a kid, I mean, even though I wasn't in organized sports leagues, like we would always just go to the park and play pickup basketball or something like this. And now, I mean, God, if I didn't force her to play sports, she would be on her phone on TikTok or something, literally ungodly hours a day. So I'm a big believer in youth sports. Yeah. Like how does, because I have very early experiences with youth sports and it's hard to like maintain sanity and maintain your distance from it. Like, do you find yourself just swallowing your tongue while you're at, I think your daughter plays tennis?

Tennis and basketball. And I would say your kids are going to let you get away with voicing your opinion when they're five and six or seven. Try that at our high school basketball game. And you won't be back there. So I think you learn just as they get older what they're comfortable with. And at the end of the day, if they don't want to hear you, you know, yelling your feedback, you're going to have to find another way to give it. That is so wild because, like, I can't remember half of my teammates from, like, some of the organized sports I played as a kid. But I remember the loudest parents that were not my friends.

I'm like, damn, bro, Mr. Borna is going the fuck off again. And you're like, yo, man, it's cool. Your dad's so intense. And they're just like, no, bro, just don't even talk about this man that's all he does look his look that he just gave i swear i see that every basketball yeah just from your daughter in particular no no no i i've learned my lesson she will yeah i have to be very deliberate in what I'm doing. But there are some other parents that, oh, man, these guys. And it's typically the dad. Yeah, they're all in.

And you're like, whoa, take it down a little bit. Yeah, right. How do you deal with the screen side of it? Like the other side, you know, it sounds like you're thinking of youth sports as like sort of one weapon on the side of good against you know the screens just taking over like i heard in talking to a parent this weekend they were like yeah it kind of feels messed up that like one of the things that like you have as a parent is be like no ipad then if you're not going to do that no ipad then we're going like basically we're gonna take your drugs away right right you know yeah how you gonna get right without your ipad yeah yeah yeah but like how how has that

process been for you as a parent of especially a 15 year old yeah can't be well as the parent of any 15 year old's gonna tell you it has to be something serious if you're going for the phone because you know all hell is gonna break out so it has to be level 10 if you're going for the phone because you know all hell is going to break out so it has to be level 10 where it's just like okay the phone give me the phone and you're willing to stand on it but honestly i i have to be very intentional because otherwise you're going to say give me the phone and you're going to encounter a headache that you're just like man this wasn't worth it for me the The damn phone. You're like, here, take my phone too, actually. My bad.

I wasn't expecting all this. Exactly. What's something you think is overrated? Oh, by far the Stanley water bottles. That's just ridiculous. Yeah, my daughter has a couple of them, which I refuse to buy any of them.

But it's sure it's a I'm sure it's a high quality water bottle. Right. I'm familiar with the company. But there's a whole bunch of high quality water bottles that will keep your beverages cold or keep them warm. And they don't have that same price point. So I just think those things are terribly overrated. Yeah, it feels like we're due for the backlash where some other brand kind of pops up. We've talked about, what's the OD one?

O'Wallo? Yeah, O'Wallo. Yeah, that one's pretty good, but doesn't seem like it's quite. With the straw built in? Yeah. But I mean, it just shows you again, it was all because of the marketing genius at Stanley. pretty good but doesn't seem like it's quite the straw built in yeah it's just it's just but i mean it just shows you again like it was all because of the marketing genius at stanley like they press

it's just all they just want full court press on influencers that's gonna completely inform the market of what's cool and when someone's like yo i got this limited edition one it's the philippines exclusive colorway of a fucking cup and people are like i'll pay five hundred dollars for it on the on the secondary market it's yeah yeah it becomes this other thing but yeah i mean i feel like you know maybe yeah there's maybe there's a company that comes in it's like we got the two dollar cup right everyone should be buying but then it's like but it is made of lead so we just be really clear on that well stan right? Yeah. There's like lead in one of the parts of it. And that,

and I know that that caused some people, especially in Los Angeles to, to clutch their yoga blocks and be like, Oh, I can't. Right. Not with this anymore. Stupid LA and their soft hippie dippy ways.

They're not happy drinking water out of lead cups. There's just a lead in part of the cup. You don't interact with the part that has lead in it. That's the thing that many of the Stanley stands. Plus, it'll help you if you're getting dental x-rays. It makes sense. We needed something that could appear

with you in a shot. Shoes were the thing that was the most kind of captured by the influencer market for a long time. And then like, but you can't have your shoes in like a selfie with you unless you're really flexible. So like the Stanley water bottle,

like answers that call. It's like a, it's like a bag or something because you can have your whole outfit on, let them know. Here's all my signifiers. And also I got the quencher it's the 40 ounce yeah i think i'm just intimidated by like things that are that cumbersome too it's like bro i can't fuck i can't i can't walk around with a gigantic cup all the time like like in the house i have like a normal cup i can just keep refilling but something that, I remember even when I was like

at the height of like my water drinking, I like tapped out at like 30 ounces. Like anything above that is. And we're glad we got you back from the edge on that water drinking. Thanks, man. Thanks, man. Real touch and go.

Real touch and go there. Yeah. Those meetings are helping. I had to keep going to the bathroom. I'm like, I'm so sorry. I have to go to the bathroom again. Usually that's a sign of a different problem. But this time was yeah no it's like no i can't stop drinking water well there's a perfect segue into the third minute yeah is he beaming up in the bathroom no man he's

drinking 40 ounces of liquid at a time we told him it's a danger to his kidneys but he doesn't listen yeah too much he found one found one doctor, quote doctor in quotes, who says that he needs 40 ounces of water between meals? How is that even possible? Bro, my favorite doctor, Bradley from Sublime, 40 ounces of freedom. That's how

I think. That's what that song was actually about. It's about drinking 40 ounces of water at a time. Yeah. Alright. Let's take a quick ounces of water at a time. Yeah. All right. Let's take a quick break and we'll come back and we will get into it. We'll be right back. I'm Jess Casavetto, executive producer of the hit Netflix documentary series,

Dancing for the Devil, the 7M TikTok cult. And I'm Clea Gray, former member of 7M Films and Shekinah Church. And we're the host of the new podcast, Forgive Me For I Have Followed. Together, we'll be diving even deeper into the unbelievable stories behind 7M Films and LA-based Shekinah Church, an alleged cult that has impacted members for over two decades. Jessica and I will delve into the hidden truths between high-control groups and interview dancers, church members, and others whose lives and careers have been impacted, just like mine. Through powerful, in-depth interviews with former members and new, chilling firsthand accounts, the series will illuminate untold and extremely necessary

perspectives. Forgive Me For I Have Followed will be more than an exploration. It's a vital revelation aimed at ensuring these types of abuses never happen again. Listen to Forgive Me For I Have Followed on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, I'm Gianna Pradente. And I'm Jemay Jackson-Gadsden. We're the hosts of Let's Talk Offline, a new podcast from LinkedIn News and iHeart Podcasts. host of Let's Talk Offline, a new podcast from LinkedIn News and iHeart Podcasts. When you're just starting out in your career, you have a lot of questions like, how do I speak up when I'm feeling overwhelmed? Or can I negotiate a higher salary if this is my first real job? Girl, yes. Each week, we answer your unfiltered work questions. Think of us as your work besties you can turn to for advice. And if we don't know the

answer, we bring in experts who do, like resume specialist Morgan Saner. The only difference between the person who doesn't get the job and the person who gets the job is usually who applies. Yeah, I think a lot about that quote. What is it like you miss 100% of the shots you never take? Yeah, rejection is scary, but it's better than you rejecting yourself. Together, we'll share what it really takes to thrive in the early years of your career without sacrificing your sanity or sleep. Listen to Let's Talk Offline on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

I'm Keri Champion, and this is season four of Naked Sports, where we live at the intersection of sports and culture. Up first, I explore the making of a rivalry, Kaitlyn Clark versus Angel Reese. I know I'll go down in history. People are talking about women's basketball just because of one single game. Every great player needs a foil. I ain't really near them. Why is that? I just come here to play basketball every single day and that's what I focus on. From college to the pros, Clark and Reese have changed the way we consume women's sports. Angel Reese is a joy to watch.

She is unapologetically black. I love her. What exactly ignited this fire? Why has it been so good for the game? And can the fanfare surrounding these two supernovas be sustained? This game is only going to get better because the talent is getting better. This new season will cover all things sports and culture. Listen to Naked Sports on the Black Effect Podcast Network,

iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. The Black Effect Podcast Network is sponsored by Diet Coke. And we're back. We're back. And so we've been talking about the thurman amendment and so just to confirm off top the thurman we're talking about here is not beloved yankees catcher thurman munson no it's not even kill bill star uma th It is, in fact, a much worse Thurmond, Strom Thurmond? Is that correct? Segregationist Strom Thurmond

is who this amendment is named after? Indeed. Yeah, there's a really interesting, yeah, he just threw it out there in the 80s and kind of completely changed the course of our housing policies because, right, when this was happening, this was about making amendments to the Fair Housing Act, where it's like, well, maybe we need to add a new category of protected class, disability.

And then he's like, I got one, I got one, I got one. What if we strip it away from drug dealers? How about that, y'all? It's Strom Thurmond back at it again. I know I took a big L in 1964 by preventing the Civil Rights Act from happening, but I never let it go with that anger. And I'm trying to get it back in today. In the 80s. Yeah, I think it was 1988, was it? Yeah, it was 88. And what's interesting about it is I was in contact with his archives at Clemson University. And so

I said, hey, I'm working on this legislation. Can you send me anything you have about this particular amendment? And you would think, you know, there'd be communications or correspondence with trade associations or advocates or impacted people. Literally, there was nothing, nothing in the archives except one piece of paper, and it was his remarks that he delivered after the passage of the 1988 Fair Housing Amendments Act. And in his written remarks, he anticipated this amendment failing. It literally says, and while my amendment did not pass, blah, blah, blah, he actually crossed that out. And in handwritten, he hand wrote, I'm glad my amendment passed and blah, blah, blah. He actually crossed that out and in handwritten, he hand wrote I'm glad my amendment passed

and blah, blah, blah. So he did, I don't even think he anticipated this passing. Right. Wow. That is super, I had no idea that, because I know like, oh wow, we're racist, racist in this country. Damn. All right, guys. Let's go. Thank you. Whoa.

Let's go. Strom you. Let's go. Strom Thurman is even like, yo, I don't even, I'm going to be real, man. I'm used to going out there and saying something. Did not see that going this way. Yeah. I used to say something so flagrant. They're like, Strom, shut up. And then I'm like, okay. But then they passed.

Let me play the clip, though, from just him at the lectern basically saying like this is this is this is what I'm proposing. One conviction is sufficient. My amendment simply says that one conviction is sufficient for a landlord to refuse to rent to a drug dealer. It's that simple. I urge my colleagues to vote for this amendment. Failure to do so makes the rights of law-abiding citizens meaningless. Drug dealers deserve no federal protection. Oof. Wow. And here we are. That voice brought to you straight from the 1880s, by the way.

Oh, yeah. Just everything about his voice and accent. I was like, is that being played on a phonograph from like a retired Civil War general? I'm pretty sure the suit he's wearing, if there was a Pantone color for it, it would be Confederate gray. Like, that's how on point it is. But Yusuf, can you kind of break down sort of just sort of the nuance here of like what exactly? I mean, we've sort of touched upon it and some people may know, but just kind of explain the Thurman Amendment for people. You've sort of touched upon it and some people may know, but just kind of explain the Thurman Amendment for people.

Yeah. So essentially the Thurman Amendment means that if you have a drug distribution conviction, and so that can be for marijuana, it can be at your application or your offer the purchase. And if they find out, whether through a background check or a Google search, that you have a drug distribution conviction, again, doesn't matter how long ago it was, doesn't matter extenuating circumstances, they can immediately, summarily deny your application or refuse to sell you their property. Right. And like, and I know you said you're trying to see any background. It,

this is just like so strange because this feels, obviously this was in the era where the, you know, the federal government was finding all kinds of ways to incarcerate, especially people of color during like the crack epidemic and these other various periods in the eighties. And this feels part and parcel to it but i'm like is there no there was no like association of like concerned

landlords or something that's like senator thurmond i'm telling you man these they're just setting up and they are serving the community in a different way not serving but serving the community and i just i can't have that in my in my in my apartment building or whatever. It just came out of his just brain. strategy where Republicans would attach anti-drug legislation to completely, you know, non-relevant bills in the hopes of getting Democrats to vote against it. And then they would use that on the campaign trail. And so like poison pilling it. Right. Yeah. So so this was all just political bullshit, quite frankly. I mean, and that's what's caused me to dedicate the last three years of my life to changing this legislation because the fact that my family was denied access to housing, that my daughter was denied access to the school that she wanted to attend because of bullshit,

racist, political games is just, it's something that I can't sit by and just let that impact other families and kids in this country. sure we'll get into my background, but I've been a homeowner for many years. But I relocated to Allentown to lead an education organization. And so at the time, my daughter was a rising ninth grader. So we're looking at school districts. I mentioned she's a tennis player. So we wanted a school that both had good academics and a strong tennis program. We identified a community, found a townhome and said, okay, we'll rent this. At no point did I even imagine that my application could be denied, right? Just because, I mean, I haven't had any justice involvement in 25 years. Hell, what I did at 18 tells you nothing about who I am as a middle-aged father. Like it's just, it's not really relevant. They should, they shouldn't rent anything to anyone based on who they were at 18. If that's, if that's a standard, then nobody can have anything.

Yeah. Well, especially if you're 40, you know, plus years old. And so, yeah. So I get this call and the woman is like,

you know, Mr. Dow, I said, yeah. And she said, well, unfortunately your application was denied.

And I said, excuse me. Like, I was so upset. I had to set my Starbucks down. I'm like, what's a WTF? Are you effing kidding me right now? I said, this is Yusuf Dahl. You got the right Dahl. Yeah, right, right. This ain't Roald Dahl. Yeah. And she says, hey, look, I don't know what to tell you. It's been denied. We'll send you the

letter. And they basically gave me a number from Boston to call about my denial in Allentown, Pennsylvania. And as you can imagine, after wasting a half hour on the phone, I just gave up. I had to find somewhere else to live. And because I had not anticipated being denied access to that apartment, now we had to scramble, right? Because I'm committed to leading this organization. And we ended up securing a housing unit in a school district that the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania has designated as failing. And so the thought that this guy, who quite frankly, you know, we know he was racist, we know he was a segregationist,

we know he exploited vulnerable people for his own personal political gain. The fact that this motherfucker to this day was limiting opportunities for children like my own, it's still just talking about it just stiffens my resolve to make sure this legislation is done once and for all. Yeah. The question that occurred to me is like why it seems specific that they're focusing on drug convictions. Like there's not an equivalent amendment for other like more serious crimes, right? Like there's not Strom Thurmond didn't say murder or domestic abusers or, you know, which is something we know as Americans because of, you know, the epidemic of gun crime, like domestic abuse is a predictor of future violence, whereas drug distribution

convictions don't have long-term predictive value as to whether renters would commit a violent crime in the future or be bad tenants. That's according to Noelle Porter, Director of Government Affairs for the National Housing Law Project. So... It's a kick-ass woman, by the way. So, Noelle is a rock star. So, I just have to give her a shout out. But it seems like the reason behind this is that they are significantly racially biased, right? The arrests for drug distribution, like in Wisconsin, where you're from, Black people make up 6% of the population and 53% of drug convictions. Yeah, the disparities are outrageous.

And think about this. Do this mental exercise. You know, you're 18 years old. You get caught with an ounce of pot, you know, back in, you know, when I was 1997. Is that distribution or is that possession? Right. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, the amounts that were classified.

It's really, quite frankly, going to depend on how good is your lawyer. How well connected are you, right? Because it's truly this gray and fuzzy line. And so if you're poor, you're likely to have been charged with a distribution crime. If you have resources, that was likely reduced down to a simple possession charge. And that difference, right, that subjectivity is the difference between losing your fair housing protections for the rest of your natural life. It's just crazy. Whereas, like, with murder, they can't permanently, they can't go easy on white murderers.

A murderer could, like, in this thought, couldn't a murderer be like, I'm taking you to court. You can't keep me out of this place because I'm a murderer. You know what I mean? That's it. That's exact. Had had my conviction. Right.

Then for a murder. Right. Right. I could have sued. Right. That housing developer for refusing to rent to me and my family. Right. Yeah.

Yeah. That you had, there was technically some kind of legal recourse or this one's like, I'm sorry, it's not a protected category. That exactly a person so you bet yep you have no protections here under the law so you may have to go to where they are willing to rent to people like you which again this brings back this whole idea of redlining and segregation and like you know i meant like we're talking about strong thurman like this guy did he bet it all in 1964 to try and stop like the civil rights like he did filibuster. And he really tried. And, you know, the precipitated his switch to switching parties because of that. And because he was so dedicated to creating this like overtly segregated America.

But with these kinds of like with this amendment, it feels like kind of like that he won, you know what I mean? By framing this this rule around drug dealers was just coded language, just very obviously coded language. He found like a somewhat nuanced way to keep the people out of the places he feels they shouldn't be to begin with. And we talk a lot about on this show about how, you know, chattel slavery has always found a way to morph into these other oppressive systems. And they all there's there's always some form of control that can be exercised over oppressed groups, especially people of color in this country. prior charge, they've, they've created a system that traps people, not necessarily physically, but in a way physically, because you're limited to where you can live, but by excluding them from the things that allow people to improve their situation, like building credit or these other things. Can you kind of talk to me about how, like, like how this, how you get stuck, like sort

of how this very specific form of redlining or segregation keeps people stuck. Like at that point, it's like, I'm sorry, but your chances of upward mobility are pretty much gone or very, very much diminished. Well, community matters, right? Context matters. We know that. And so, you know, take an example of you find an apartment. You've been living there, say, for five years. Well, if you've lived anywhere for the last five years, your rent

has probably went from $1,200 to $2,000 over the last five years. I don't care where you live. So if you're, and of course, your income hasn't matched that increase. And so one way you would try to manage that is you'd move to a less expensive rental unit. Well, if where you can live is limited, top of some of your other bills. You can't increase your credit score and ultimately put yourself in a position to purchase a property. Or in a case like mine, I had to send my daughter to a private school. So our family had to make sacrifices. I had to refrain from contributing to my retirement account and foot a god-awful expensive private school bill. But I had no choice, right? And so, on so many levels, if you don't have the ability to choose where you live based on market values and measures of risk, but instead just someone's

perceived risk of who you are because of a past conviction, you're just not going to be able to access the communities that are going to best help you thrive in a broader context. You know, Miles mentioned the ways that chattel slavery kind of morphs into different institutions in the modern world. And, you know, we've specifically talked a lot about it morphing into, you know, the carceral human caging system. I just want to, because, you know, you're being targeted, you know, in the recent past, you spent time in prison and got out and like really rebuilt your life in a way that feels like, you know, the odds were stacked against you so much. Like just, I think having a better idea of like what you were able to do helps just like

kind of really drive home how this specific amendment is a total fuck you to people and just like completely wildly unjust. But can you talk about just like how you built yourself coming out of prison? Yeah, you know, I've been incredibly fortunate. Even when I was behind bars, actually, my journey to a better life started behind bars. I had this chance encounter with a guy who was in the Wisconsin prison system for defrauding the Kohler Corporation. And so you should never defraud anyone, but you sure the hell don't want to defraud a company that has a town named after it. So, you know, this guy, brilliant, you know, master's degree in engineering from the Northeast.

So he's in the Wisconsin prison system with me, and he taught me how to program computers. And so when I came home, was very fortunate, was able to work my way into some development roles in Fortune 500 companies. I've worked on three continents. I've built software in India, in Africa. I had a fellowship from Google. I served as president of Wisconsin's largest trade association, had a full scholarship to Princeton University for graduate school, you know, just really have been incredibly fortunate and have done so many things that tells you who I am today. All of those things I just noted

tell you more about me today than my conviction from when i was 18 years old yeah sure yeah right and and like and because your story is far from the norm it's you know like a quite an exceptional case like that is not the norm for people re-entering after being incarcerated like and if it's that difficult for you that's, someone who can point to all these bona fides, like I've been educated in the Ivy League, I've been working very consistent jobs, I've been successful, that the chances for anyone else who go back to reduced opportunity, lack of opportunity, and don't have that kind of upward mobility, then it truly just does become this thing like, well, now you're back in the neighborhood where you were doing dirt and your only options are to do dirt. And I think there's also like in, even when we look at, when we have these conversations, we still don't, we're still not able to look at things like drug dealing as, as a form of like lack of financial recourse for people. Like no one is dealing drugs because they're like, you know what? I always wanted to deal drugs. You know what I mean? Like just something I

wanted to do. I had the offer from Google. I was like, no, man, the block needs me. I wanted to be one of them boys. You know what I mean? Not one of these Google people, but you know, like that we don't actually, we never look at sort of things like survival crime, too, in a certain context and and be able to extend empathy in those situations. Obviously, violent crime can be a completely different thing. But when you look at things like this, like most people, especially people who have dabbled in it, they have very similar stories of my back was to a wall. They have very similar stories of my back was to a wall. If I just moved this thing from point A to point B, or I let somebody stash something at my house, and then somehow a bust happened, and it completely ruined my life, that these people aren't coming at it from having some kind of sociopathic desire to break the law. That's a great point. That's a great point.

And all of that nuance is missed, right? That's the most frustrating piece of this. And, you know, what keeps me motivated every day is because this has been a slog. I mean, changing federal legislation is a slog. And what keeps me motivated is that there are literally tens of thousands of people right now in this country who are in my situation but didn't have an alternative option for their family. Right. You know, that's just wrong. And that's honestly what keeps me motivated every day to get this over the finish line. Yeah.

All right. Well, we should take one more break and we'll come back. I'm Jess Casavetto, executive producer of the hit Netflix documentary series Dancing for the Devil, the 7M TikTok cult. And I'm Clea Gray, former member of 7M Films and Shekinah Church. And we're the host of the new podcast, Forgive Me For I Have Followed. Together, we'll be diving even deeper into the unbelievable stories behind 7M Films and LA-based Shekinah Church, an alleged cult that has impacted members for over two decades. Jessica and I will delve into the hidden truths between high control groups and

interview dancers, church members, and others whose lives and careers have been impacted, just like mine. Through powerful, in-depth interviews with former members and new, chilling firsthand accounts, the series will illuminate untold and extremely necessary perspectives. Forgive Me For I Have Followed will be more than an exploration. It's a vital revelation aimed at ensuring these types of abuses never happen again. Listen to Forgive Me For I Have Followed on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, I'm Gianna Pradente. And I'm Jimei Jackson-Gadsden.

We're the hosts of Let's Talk Offline, a new podcast from LinkedIn News and iHeart Podcasts. When you're just starting out in your career, you have a lot of questions, like how do I speak up when I'm feeling overwhelmed? Or can I negotiate a higher salary if this is my first real job? Girl, yes. Each week, we answer your unfiltered work questions.

Think of us as your work besties you can turn to for advice. And if we don't know the answer, we bring in experts who do, like resume specialist Morgan Saner. The only difference between the person we don't know the answer, we bring in experts who do, like resume specialist Morgan Saner. The only difference between the person who doesn't get the job and the person who gets the job is usually who applies. Yeah, I think a lot about that quote. What is it like you miss 100% of the shots you never take? Yeah, rejection is scary, but it's better than you

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iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. The Black Effect Podcast Network is sponsored by Diet Coke. And we're back. And so, you know, this is one way that I feel like redlining is still kind of it's like a neo redlining that's still happening today. decades about, you know, real estate agents sort of being an informal barrier to, you know, Black families moving into certain parts of towns, engaging informally in discriminatory practices. But what have you seen? What are the other ways that you see kind of redlining still upheld, even though it's technically illegal? Yeah, that's a great question. And I have a buddy who's very supportive of this work that I'm doing, but he leads the National Association of Real

Estate Brokers. And it's basically like the trade association for black realtors, and he leads the Milwaukee chapter. And I was talking to him about this work I'm doing. And he said, you know, I remember when I got out of prison, how, you know, I would have to pay extra fees if I the security deposit and he didn't have that type of money. So that particular apartment wouldn't be available to him. Or, you know, if he submitted an offer when he became a real estate investor, you know, he submitted an offer to a, you know, well-to-do area. And with everyone's information public and online, you know, he noticed several times he just did not get a response from the seller about his offer. And two weeks later, there's an accepted offer on the property. So, I mean, it's an unnecessary tool that lends itself to abuse, either by people who really have ill intentions or just people who are clueless and honestly are unwittingly perpetuating, you know, these very systemic disadvantages that we've been talking about.

What's kind of been the biggest hurdle in terms of, because I know like, you know, I've worked in politics and on the state level, there's things like ballot initiatives you can do to try and change laws and regulations and things like that. But like doing it on a federal level, what's been I mean, aside from trying to do away with something that has been like the cause of so much pain for people, but is seen as a norm. like the cause of so much pain for people, but it's seen as a norm. What's, what's kind of been like the hardest sort of, well, the hardest part about the process in terms of trying to get people to understand like this isn't necessary and it's something actually need to move past because it's causing so much damage. Yeah, I, well, I think it's, it's just getting visibility on this issue. And that's why I'm so appreciative of you guys for highlighting this issue on your platform, because here's the reality. You'll never convince me that if the general public was aware that current housing policy in this country, at least part of it is being directed by someone

like Strom Thurmond, and these are the outcomes of this housing policy, that folks would just be like, yeah, that makes sense. Let's keep that in place. Right. We're good here. Exactly. No reason to reform that. And so it's really this has been going on for almost 40 years because of who it impacts. It impacts the most vulnerable people. And you said it yourself. My experience is an outlier. And so they just happen to, quite frankly, do it to the wrong person who's prepared to go all in on this shit and do whatever it takes to change this legislation. But if for the average person who can invest this type of time and resources to do this stuff. And so it just becomes the status quo. And so

the biggest challenge has been raising the visibility of this issue so that folks understand why they can care. Because I guarantee you, the folks who are listening to this right now, they're not going to be for it. And so I encourage them to reach out to me and figure out how can they support this effort to get their legislators to do something and repeal this useless amendment. No, yeah, I think I think a lot of listeners are probably definitely sympathetic towards that. No doubt. And Yusuf, what would you say, you know, just to for something for people to keep in mind when they hear about? Because I think like, you know, when people hear about someone who was in prison is going to move in, you know, right? We have this sort of like,

sort of inbuilt response that, because sadly, even though we pretend our carceral system is about like rehabilitation or anything, it really isn't. It's just, it's like a revolving door. What do you think, what are sort of the obstacles that you challenge people

to sort of challenge their own thinking when being confronted in a situation like this? Or someone says, oh, I couldn't rent to this person. They were a drug dealer. And then they say, oh, well, good, good. That's good. Good you stopped that from happening. What's sort of the shift that you feel people need to make and able to sort of look at the world with a bit of a more equitable lens in this context? Well, someone who would say something like that, I don't know what the hell I would say to that person. But I would say that, look, this criminal legal system has grown exponentially. And so it's hard to find somebody who doesn't have some type of tangential connection to the system. And I think that's, you know, as people have that connection, I think they develop the empathy. You'll never convince me you have to enforce the Thurman Amendment to make money. That's bullshit. And I'll call it as it is,

because I know that's not true. And so, I mean, folks have to, just because you can do it. I mean, this is the problem. This is exactly what happens. You're a landlord. You go to your attorney and say, hey, look, I need to develop my screening criteria. And I don't want to run afoul of the Fair Housing Act, right? This is what happens. Your attorney is going to do their job and they're going to say, okay, you can legally do these things.

You can deny all applications with a drug distribution conviction. Okay, boom, let's do that. And for all these other criminal classifications, this is what you need to do. Okay, fine. Right? So as long as this is legal, this is going to be a problem. And that is why we have to repeal the Thurman Amendment and the 118th Congress. Yeah. Actually, that's the best place to leave it. Let's just leave it there. Done. All right. Well, thank you so much, Yusuf Dahl, for joining us and talking about your work. Where can people find you, follow you, all that good stuff, and learn more about how to help you in your fight to overturn the Thurman Amendment? Yeah. so I'm on Twitter, Instagram, Yusuf Dahl,

and I have a website, thurmanamendment.org. Again, thurmanamendment.org. You can connect with me on that platform as well. That's T-H-U-R-M-O-N-D Amendment, not like Uma Thurman or Thurman Munson. And Yusuf Dahl is Y-U-S-U-F-D-A-H-L. Yes, sir. In case you're looking.

Is there a work of media that you've been enjoying? A work of media that I've been enjoying? It can be a tweet. It can be whatever you want. Well, okay, okay. I have to put it out there. So we just started binge watching 90 Day Fiance. Dang.

Yeah, the 90 Days Before, though, I think it's a different program. Before the 90 Days, yeah. I I think it's a different program. My daughter, I only watch this stuff because of my daughter. She's a total like trash reality TV person. And so I get that. Anyways, that stuff is pretty hilarious. So I'm into that right now. Amazing. Perfect answer. Miles, where can people find you? And what is the work media you can find me at Miles of Gray gray wherever they got that symbol you can also find jack and I on

our basketball podcast with the NBA called miles and jack on mad boosties and also you can find me on my 90 day fiance podcast for a fiance with Sophia Alexandra because you know what some of us like to play in the trash to you know some of us were of the

trash and I love it with all my being. And yeah, that's where you can find me in the pod space. A thing of working media, like this Korean reality show, Physical 100 is back with a new season on Netflix. And again, as someone who is always wowed by people who have that kind of discipline with their fitness,

there's just no shortage of like just moments when I watch the show. I'm like, I could, I would know I'm just not going to do that, but I like to watch other people suffer, uh, and use their big muscular bodies and doing stuff. So anyway,

yeah, that's what I'm watching. Physical 100. Amazing. You can find me on Twitter at Jack underscore O'Brien, uh, tweet. I've been enjoying Noah Garfinkel tweeted. You have to eat so many vegetables or you will die.

That's okay. Everyone likes potatoes. Oh, yeah. There is one that doesn't count, and it is potatoes. And then Troy Johnson underscore Troy Johnson on Twitter tweeted, the black jelly bean is the best bean. Made of corn syrup, Jägermeister, eyeshadow, and cure songs. Flavor stays in your mouth until Jesus comes back. Supreme.

You can find us on Twitter at Daily Zeitgeist. We're at The Daily Zeitgeist on Instagram. We have a Facebook fan page and a website, dailyzeitgeist.com, where we post our episodes and our footnotes, where we link off to the information that we talked about in today's episode as well as a song that we think you might enjoy miles what song do you think people might enjoy yes a song yes a song uh this track uh just i just want to play a little bit of you know like some psych indie rock uh this is crumb c-u-r-m-b and their new track a mama a-m-a-m-a

you guessed it right and uh i just like the you know it just it just got again when i listen like indie rock it the rhythm section's got to be on point i gotta like what the drummer's doing i gotta like what the bassist is doing and i like what they're doing on this track so this is a mama by crumb a mama all right we will link off to that in the footnotes the daily zeitgeist is a production of iheart radio for more podcasts from iheart radio visit the iheart radio app apple podcast wherever you listen your favorite shows that is going to do it for us this morning back this afternoon to tell you what is trending and we'll talk to y'all then bye bye i'm jess casavetto executive producer of the hit netflix Bye. Bye-bye.

I'm Jess Casavetto, executive producer of the hit Netflix documentary series, Dancing for the Devil, the 7M TikTok cult. And I'm Clea Gray, former member of 7M Films and Shekinah Church. And we're the host of the new podcast, Forgive Me For I Have Followed. Together, we'll be diving even deeper into the unbelievable stories behind 7M Films and Shekinah Church. Listen to Forgive Me For I Have Followed on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. from LinkedIn News and iHeart Podcasts. There's a lot to figure out when you're just starting your career. That's where we come in.

Think of us as your work besties you can turn to for advice. And if we don't know the answer, we bring in people who do, like negotiation expert Maury Tahiripour. If you start thinking about negotiations as just a conversation, then I think it sort of eases us a little bit.

Listen to Let's Talk Offline on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Keri Champion, and this is Season 4 of Naked Sports. Up first, I explore the making of a rivalry. Kaitlyn Clark versus Angel Reese. Every great player needs a foil. I know I'll go down in history.

People are talking about women's basketball just because of one single game. Clark and Reese have changed the way we consume women's sports. Listen to the making of a rivalry, Caitlin Clark versus Angel Reese, on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Presented by Elf Beauty, founding partner of iHeart Women's Sports.