The Daily Zeitgeist - Revolution: More Possible Than We Think 01.30.24

Episode Date: January 30, 2024

In episode 1615, Jack and Miles are joined by author of Be A Revolution: How Everyday People are Fighting Oppression and Changing the World - and How You Can, Too, Ijeoma Oluo, to discuss… How We Can All Play Apart In Dismantling Oppression and more! LISTEN: Massamba Afundance by Jahari Massamba Unit, Karriem Riggins, and MadlibSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Hey, I'm Gianna Pradenti. And I'm Jermaine Jackson-Gadsden. We're the hosts of Let's Talk Offline from LinkedIn News and iHeart Podcasts. There's a lot to figure out when you're just starting your career. That's where we come in. Think of us as your work besties

you can turn to for advice. And if we don't know the answer, we bring in people who do, like negotiation expert Maury Tahiripour. If you start thinking about negotiations as just a conversation, then I think it sort of eases us a little bit. Listen to Let's Talk Offline on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

I'm Jess Costavetto, executive producer of the hit Netflix documentary series, Dancing for the Devil, the 7M TikTok cult. And I'm Clea Gray, former member of 7M Films and Shekinah Church. And we're the host of the new podcast, Forgive Me For I Have Followed. Together, we'll be diving even deeper into the unbelievable stories behind 7M Films and Shekinah Church. Listen to Forgive Me For I Have Followed on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,

or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Keri Champion, and this is season four of Naked Sports. Up first, I explore the making of a rivalry. Kaitlyn Clark versus Angel Reese. People are talking about women's basketball just because of one single game. Clark and Reese have changed the way we consume women's basketball. And on this new season, we'll cover all things sports and culture.

Listen to Naked Sports on the Black Effect Podcast Network, iHeartRadio apps, or wherever you get your podcasts. The Black Effect Podcast Network is sponsored by Diet Coke. Hello, the internet, and welcome to season 323, episode two of Dirt Daily's iGuy's Day production of iHeartRadio. This is a podcast where we take a deep dive into america's shared consciousness and it is tuesday january 30th 2024 we're almost out of it we're almost out of january we almost made it through one more day and what does that mean it means national plan for vacation day this feels like something this feels like very much like blue monday i'm not sure this is a national day rather than being like why don't y'all spend money on this? They are trying to cheer us up.

Yeah. The last national day was like National Fun at Work Day. Yeah. National Plan for Vacation Day brought to you by the U.S. Travel Association. Nailed it. Yeah. And then also National Croissant Day. If you're a croissant.

Yeah. If you like the croissant, it's your day. Buttery, flaky, delicious. Can I get a croissant? Is how I like to order it at Starbucks. Yeah. Class act. What? Yeah.

Can I have the sous vide egg bite? Sous vide? With egg bites, man. My name's Jack O'Brien aka you got a.k.a. You got a frenum in me. You got a frenum in me.

It's not your foreskin that I'm talking about. I am the one that lives inside your mouth. Under your tongue, man, not way down south. Boy, you got a frenum in me That is courtesy of Scouty on the Discord In reference to our conversation with Zara About frenums Yeah

Yeah the little string under the tongue That is called frenum That I have been calling frenulum But frenulum is a part of the penis So Yeah But lingual frenulum also applies As many people came in to tell us medically

It was also accurate So Oh okay good We'll call it a push We'll call it a push Yeah Got it Well I'm thrilled to be joined as always

By my co-host Mr. Miles Gray It's Miles Gray A.K.A All my life A dragon puppeteer. I must bring you cheer. And all my dreams, no THC in me.

Underrated on TDZ. TDZ. Shout out to Cranberry. Shout out Nicole Adrian on the Discord. Yes, the dreaming continues with the lower levels of THC in my system. I had another one that I kept having. My partner was sick and kept vomiting on me. I hate to just start this off like that.

But then it was just a misunderstanding in my dream somehow. My medical panic turned into like, that was just water. It's okay. It's okay. It was a weird one. I don't know what's happening in the subconscious. Her Majesty, real vomit, and it turned into that in your dream?

It was like water got all over my clothes. I was like, what? What's going on here right now? And then it's like, oh, it's fine. It's just water. It's just water. And I was like, oh, okay. Look, it's hard to re-explain dreams after the fact because they just sound like nonsense.

They do. Is Her Majesty sick? No. Okay, good. That's good to hear. Yeah, yeah. Not at all. Miles, we are thrilled to be joined in our third seat by a writer, speaker, activist, best-selling author

who works on issues of race and identity in America. Her new book is Be a Revolution, how everyday people are fighting oppression and changing the world and how you can too. in America. Her new book is Be a Revolution, How Everyday People Are Fighting Oppression and Changing the World and How You Can Too. Please welcome to the show, the brilliant, the talented, Ijeoma Oluo! Ijeoma! Welcome, welcome. How are you doing?

Welcome. I'm doing well. How are you? We're doing great. We're doing great. It's great to have you. We've just finished your book. We're very excited to talk about it and pick your brain and ask you questions, but not make you do any of the extra labor that sometimes you're asked to do in other spaces. Obviously, we want this to be a free-flowing conversation. But yeah, I also have to say, you are from Seattle. And the first thing I always say to every person from Seattle is, Dix, ain't it great?

Aren't the fries great? And you came with it and said it was part of your very substantial moment in your life on your wedding. So I'm glad to hear that we have that in common just to start. Yeah. Yeah. Sometimes it's all you need. You know? You don't, because Dix are, Miles has very specific taste in French fries

that he likes them. The texture. Medium rare. He likes soggy mashed potato sticks. Soggy mashed sticks, no. Is that always your preferred type of French fry or just dicks? There's something about dicks.

Yeah, no. I like all different types of fries. There aren't fries like dicks anywhere else like it's there's a dicks fry and then you can't get it anywhere else but it is a particular kind of soft very salty thing that's beautiful uh but actually tastes like real potato where a lot of french fries don't because it is just real potato you can watch them chopping them up and tossing them in the fryer. But yeah, it's a really specific thing.

But no, I like French fries other places. But when you want a Dick's French fry, you can't go anywhere else. It's that's all there is. Yeah. Love it up there. Love it up there. Beautiful.

We've got it all. And a great music scene. Well, we are going to dig into your book and just all the work, your expertise. But first, before we get to that, we do like to get to know our guest a little bit better and ask what is something from your search history that's revealing about who you are or what you're up to? The other day I was trying to figure out what happened to Seal. up to uh the other day i was trying to figure out what happened to seal oh the singer like the singer yeah yeah i was i don't i don't know i think like heidi klune showed up in my feed

and then i was thinking what happened to seal and my partner was like oh did he die and i said i don't think he died and so i spent a good amount of time um i don't know he just seems happy he was recently at like his sister i think or his cousin had a film release and he came and brought kids yeah he seems happy i don't know so yeah that's for me a lot of times it's random things popping up into my head of you know what happened to this person that you know i that used to be a part of my life. I was thinking about Juman Hansu the other day too. Maybe it's just like really beautiful black men that popped up in like the 90s. And I'm like, where did they go?

What happened to them? Yeah, what happened to Juman Hansu? What's he doing? I mean, he's always popping up in movies all the time. And then like, sometimes in roles, I'm like, Juman, I felt like sometimes, look, it's Hollywood. You do all kinds of roles. But yeah, I'm trying to Jemima, I felt like sometimes, look, it's Hollywood, you do all kinds of roles.

But yeah, I'm trying to think of what the last thing I saw him in was. Yeah, I'm trying to think he was, I saw him in something just a few years ago, but it was like a really bit part with some futuristic like space thing, I think I remember. Yeah. But like, I feel like he got typecast so bad,

you know what I mean? After Amistad. Like the 90s and yeah yeah you know of like he was only going to do like this trauma porn or he was so exotified because of his looks and his accent and i just think that they really put him into a corner that made it hard for him to get out of and you know and i think he has said the same like i think i remember some quotes from interviews in the past being like yeah he was absolutely typecast but you know my favorite memory of him is always going to be the janet jackson video because that's really where i just

watched that on repeat you know in my little like pre-teen hormonal like explosion of like yeah yeah who is this incredibly beautiful human being and just watched it over and over again love will never do without you you know that we know that jimin or jimon i throw a word people calling him jimin too yeah and i know another person i remember i went to school with someone who called him digimon i heard that a couple times. I remember people being like, did you? Yeah. Not digital monsters. The cartoon. Man, you know what?

I think part of the reason that like seals kind of hard to search online. Like I searched seal urban legend and they were like, okay, is breaking the seal a real thing when you're out drinking? And I just feel like it's very specific. But Seal is 60 and thriving and touring. Last time Google checked in with him.

The last tweet he had was, he's playing Redondo Beach, Beach Life Festival, this May 3rd weekend with Sting, Incubus, Devo, Fleet Foxes. This is a real interesting lineup. I feel like he should get higher billing. He's like on Sting, Incubus, Devo, Fleet Foxes. This is a real interesting lineup. Wow.

I feel like he should get higher billing. He's like on the third line. I just want to know what crowd is going. How people are mixing. Like, oh, we got your Fleet Foxes. We got your Sting. Yeah. I can see whatever the Venn diagram is between Sting and Seal being very annoying. Like I don't want to be. Yeah, there's a lot of yeah, there's a lot of I would have voted Obama third term if I could. Yeah, I feel like then you add the fleet foxes into that Venn diagram becomes pretty blownable. Yeah, there are three separate circles suddenly.

Yeah. Oh, no. What is something you think is overrated? Self-care. Self-care is overrated. And the way it's being defined in mainstream culture or what dimension of it? Yeah, no, I mean, I think a lot of it. I mean, I think that the one, you know, self-care being really pushed is this tool to kind of help us recover from hyper capitalism and an individual basis just yeah all of it the fact

that you could fail at caring for yourself you know and it could be enough yeah yeah yeah it's your fault yeah not grinding hard enough on that self-care shit yeah right right like oh you you don't you know you don't have any sick time and you're exhausted and you're working 50 hour weeks. Have you tried doing yoga on your day off? Have you tried a heated weighted blanket? Exactly. Are you sure that won't help you feel terrible about hegemonic forces that are acting upon your life constantly? No, that's so true.

Because the way you say that, it makes self-care feel like the paper straws, like what that is to the environment. Where it's like, hey, don't look at that root causes, you idiot. Just fucking wear a blanket that's shaped like a robe and drink some tea and take a bath. And just sort of let's let's let those real things meld away while it's a distraction. Wow. OK. Yep.

You gentlemen, thank you for that one. Yep. Because it's true. Wow. Okay. Yep. You gentlemen, thank you for that one. Yep. Because it's true. Like, I feel like even like in my, like in therapy, there is like an just try self-care rather than yeah empowering ourselves and the myriad of ways we can do like the many examples you have in your book are probably a more effective way to use that energy for sure i like to get into really negative self-talk about how badly i'm doing at self-care you know you're fucking this up. Just in the spa. Dude, relax. Looking at myself in the mirror. Relax. Just relax, man.

Don't do that. Don't do that. Oh, no. What is something you think is underrated? Community care. Absolutely. Like, I think every time that we are in times of strife and stress and, you know, spoiler alert, we're going to be increasingly in those as time progresses. I don't think everyone kind of is like, oh, well, when we're over this, over what? Over

end-stage capitalism? 2023 was just a bad year. That's all. We're ready for the next one. We'll shake it off. We'll get back to normal soon. Yeah. The idea of leaning into community for healing and being a part of community healing, finding healing in community, being part of healing community as a way of sustaining us as an acknowledgement of what has sustained us, I think is devalued highly. I mean, not only did we see this in how people responded to the ongoing COVID pandemic, right, where you actually, people were mocked for prioritizing community care and we saw the way in which, you know, we treated our children. Like we had our children home for a year and they were being told they're falling behind. Like falling behind who? How can you fall

behind when every student is home? What does that mean? You know? But even now, when we think about how we're told to address societal issues, you idea is to girl boss your way out of it or all these things instead of saying, hey, why are you here? What has gotten you, your community through these times in the past? What is in our blood? And that's communal care. And we can get a lot out of it when it's true communal care. You know, that's not like one subset of a population sacrificing themselves for the whole, but instead people seeing each other in their wholeness and caring for each other and recognizing our shared, you know, survival is one of the most longstanding and important tools we've had for

resilience and resistance and joy and growth and everything in our society and in especially i'd say in an american culture and you know the quote-unquote western culture it's treated like this really backwards um slow you know poverty inducing way of living yeah oh you can't you can't bootstrap it on your own well then what's the point yeah it does look like that and then even when you look at things like like food not bombs and groups like that who are being like well we are actually going to care for the people that are in need of the community and then you have you know local government being like this is illegal like and trying to completely you know uh devalue that kind of practice and

make it illegal is, I think, a really good example of how, like, to your point, it is something that we've been doing naturally to care for each other. But we were finding a way to sort of obscure that and turn into like a negative because I think, yeah, the momentum of something like that is more like mutual aid or intersectional thinking and that's probably doesn't benefit uh the current situation as you say of end-stage capitalists do we feel like there's a concerted effort to erase like the just community like that i guess i'm just trying to think of like you know know, movies and things like that, that I think are like shape how we view different parts of history. And like just the fact that like bowling used to be used to be a big deal in America.

Like I just I remember hearing this NPR story where they were like, yeah, like everybody used to like go bowling, like the whole society was based like all these cultures are based around like people just like going bowling on a weekend night, like seeing their entire town there. Or I think church is the other example. Do we think that there's like a concerted effort to like cut those things out of the stories that we tell ourselves? Or is that just because we are so like at a cellular level taught to be individualistic that like they just aren't in the stories that we tell from history yeah i mean i think it's a concerted effort i

mean we look at like if you think of the movies and heroes of the movies it's always this this one individual when alone or we look at success yeah i'm a you know the idea of a self-made millionaire or billionaire which is ridiculous right it doesn't exist it pulls, you know, the idea of a self-made millionaire or billionaire, which is ridiculous, right? It pulls us, you know, away from collectivism. Collectivism has always been, you know, collective consciousness, collective care has always been the enemy of systemic oppression because that's where we can lean into our real power and where we don't need people to speak for us and make decisions for us. And so, yeah, it is erased all of the time.

The amount of ways in which people will try to be like, no one helped me. Even though I did this on my own, no one did it. And also, that's really sad. That sounds so sad for you. I know. Bill Gates. But I guess, yeah, and I think that's where our American ego gets involved. And that's why I'm so unique, you see, because I had no advantages and I'm selectively remembering that my father gave me a $300,000 loan.

Okay. Right. But then I did it all by myself after that. And it's sort of part of that way to just differentiate ourselves in this very individualistic way, for sure. Yeah. Yeah. of that way to just differentiate ourselves in this very like individualistic way for sure yeah yeah and i think like it is probably it is i feel like intentional right because even as we've talked about on the show and even examples in your book you don't know like we're we're trying to take certain details even out of our educational narratives that we're giving children like whether that's like the kinds of things ron desantis is trying to do in florida and obscuring like you

know we have people being like slavery was actually like a great work study program or like trying to reduce, like, like have those kinds of takes in history books. Or the other example I've heard from one of the people in your labor chapter about how there's no real discussion about late, like the labor movements and why those are important. They're just like, yeah, there's a department of labor next chapter, the USDA. And you're like, what? You know, because if we're not taught that as kids and if those aren't the lessons, then yeah, we have we don't have a great frame of reference to lean on when like those kinds of moments arise where we need to have that kind of thinking. Yeah. All right. Let's let's take a quick break and we'll dive into the book and just all the amazing work that you do.

We'll be right back. I'm Jess Casavetto, executive producer of the hit Netflix documentary series, Dancing for the Devil, the 7M TikTok cult. And I'm Clea Gray, former member of 7M Films and Shekinah Church. And we're the host of the new podcast, Forgive Me For I Have Followed. Together, we'll be diving even deeper

into the unbelievable stories behind 7M Films and LA-based Shekinah Church, an alleged cult that has impacted members for over two decades. Jessica and I will delve into the hidden truths between high control groups and interview dancers, church members, and others whose lives and careers have been impacted, just like mine. Through powerful, in-depth interviews with former members and new,

chilling firsthand accounts, the series will illuminate untold and extremely necessary perspectives. Forgive Me For I Have Followed will be more than an exploration. It's a vital revelation aimed at ensuring these types of abuses never happen again. Listen to Forgive Me For I Have Followed on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. This summer, the nation watched as the Republican nominee for president

was the target of two assassination attempts separated by two months. These events were mirrored nearly 50 years ago when President Gerald Ford faced two attempts on his life in less than three weeks. President Gerald R. Ford came stunningly close to being the victim of an assassin today. And these are the only two times we know of that a woman has tried to assassinate a U.S. president. One was the protege of infamous cult leader Charles Manson. I always felt like Lynette was kind of his right-hand woman.

The other, a middle-aged housewife working undercover for the FBI in a violent revolutionary underground. Identified by police as Sarah Jean Moore. The story of one strange and violent summer. This is Rip Current, available now with new episodes every Thursday. Listen on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

I've been thinking about you. I want you back in my life. It's too late for that. I have a proposal for you. Come up here and document my project. All you need to do is record everything like you always do. One session.

24 hours. BPM 110. 120. She's terrified. Should we wake her up? Absolutely not. What was that? You didn't figure it out? I think I need to hear you say it. That was live audio of a woman's nightmare.

This machine is approved and everything? You're allowed to be doing this? We passed the review board a year ago. We're not hurting people. There's nothing dangerous about what you're doing. They're just dreams. Dream Sequence is a new horror thriller from Blumhouse Television,

iHeartRadio, and Realm. Listen to Dream Sequence on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. And we're back. We're back. And Ijeoma, your book is in part

about everyday people, as the subhead says, how everyday people can fight oppression. You don't have to be born into it. It's very hopeful, as we've been talking about, because I think a lot of people feel despair and not weighted down by all these systems. But I just want to start with your story because I heard you talk about you were working in marketing before you kind of came to the work that you do today. So I'd just be curious to hear kind of about that transition from the world of marketing to getting into doing the really important work you do now. Yeah, I would say, you know, for me, I think, and for many people actually in the book, a lot of it is necessity, right? We come to this,

especially if you are a, you know, population primarily targeted by systemic oppression. You know, I was working and doing what I had to do to raise my family. And, you know, in Seattle, that means you're in tech. So I was in marketing for a tech agency and then for the auto industry doing digital marketing and advertising. And I was in an incredibly toxic environment for a long time. I was the only Black person, the only woman in my entire department. And living in an environment that likes to pretend that because the majority of its voters voted a particular way, that it had no work to do on race or racism. And I was still a Black woman every day. And coming to this work, really, for me, was sparked when Trayvon Martin was murdered. And that was when I just had to

have a space to express how I was feeling, my fear, my outrage, my heartbreak, and talk about what this meant for me and people I loved and knew in Seattle. Because I was in a space where I was surrounded by people who were saying, oh, it's so sad. Good thing you don't have to worry about that here. Good thing you don't live in Florida. don't have to worry about that here you know good thing you don't live in florida and not recognizing the amount of fear i had every day you know sending my kids out in the world uh watching my brother when my brother was on tour at the time as well and he is you know six foot four black man and you know feeling oh my gosh y'all the biggest spider did you see that just yeah that was wild it actually looked like a glowing like it's like coming back up now what i'm sorry oh there it goes okay hey arachnids represent what it's doing

provided it gets back up there yeah yeah it's eating the other insects anyway it also made me realize how people like think they see ghosts because i thought i saw a ghost like like a spirit just like float down in front of your screen for a second wow wow um anyways uh banks of systemic racism yeah i i just i needed to express it i i felt like i was kind of going crazy and i don't say that lightly it it felt like i was in an alternate reality where I was feeling all of this anguish and heartbreak. And I would go to work with people who said they really cared about these issues. And they'd be like, oh, look at these issues I bought.

How's your day? You know, and just it wasn't impacting them. And they didn't want to talk about it. And so I started writing really just trying to get coworkers, friends, community members to discuss this and look at this on a more local level. Writing had been a great love of mine. As a child, I had wanted to be a writer, but I was also a Black woman caring for a family, and the thought of going into a creative field was just not feasible for me at that time. And so I just started writing and people started responding, not the people I intended to, like not, you know, I lost a lot of friends, but other people in the area. And so

first it was like other black people in Seattle being like, oh my gosh, someone shared that Facebook post or that blog post and no one has described what it's like to live here in such a way before for me. And then it was just like random calls from like, you know, the New York times and like being like, Hey, we saw that you were, you know, we saw this post you made, can we reprint it? And I'm like, what, what's happening? Cause I had no intention at the time to build a writing career. Right. And the funny thing about it is when you enter a space where you can really speak freely and openly as a Black woman after decades, you know, I was in my 30s of always kind of trying to check part of yourself at the door for your own safety and protection.

You can't really like shove that back in a box. You know, like once I had a space where I could just, I was being super honest about what I was seeing and feeling and being really outspoken, then going back and spending, you know, 10 hours a day in this pretty exclusively white male space where, you know, that was incredibly hostile to my existence. I couldn't be quiet about it anymore. And so making the leap to write, you know, I was absolutely getting more requests to write things, but really it was, I'm either going to get fired from this job or I'm going to leave this job and see what I can do with this voice that people seem to be responding to. And so I made that leap with no savings, no real plan B. And, you know, luckily, I guess from a life of growing up incredibly poor, the ability to withstand,

you know, that change for a while and build upon it. And, you know, eventually my lovely agent, Lauren Abramo, reached out to me and asked if I wanted to write a book. And I thought about it. And a couple of years later I did. And, you know, the rest is kind of history. Yeah. Right. And I feel like,

you know, like with this book, right. Be a revolution. You know, revolution is this term that I think is at the forefront of so many people's minds because we're like in this liminal space where we're like,

what? Like the way we're doing shit is terrible, but where do we go? Like, you know, a lot of people were like, I know a lot of this stuff is not serving us at all. And there's, I don't need any more proof about this, but what do I do now? And we always hear about like, you know, whether it's a cynical version, like we need a revolution here in this country or other people's like, we need to have a like internal, like a societal revolution here, whatever it is about our values. It feels like I feel like for a lot of people feels like an overwhelming topic with very rigid definitions. Like if it isn't a mass movement, then it isn't revolutionary.

Or if it isn't cataclysmic, instant change, like instantly in one big moment, then that's not revolution. How do you sort of define it and sort of our own roles within that framework? Because I think you really do a great job of helping connect people to this idea without sort of having the whole thing of like, do I need to put on a three tip, three cornered hat and grab a musket and get on my horse type of thing? Or is it about sort of what we're able to do what we're putting out there? So how would you sort of define that or help people understand like this sort of this as a concept without getting into the overwhelming parts of it?

Yeah, absolutely. I would say first that there is revolution happening every day on large and small levels. And where we are directly challenging and kind of breaking the chains of systemic oppression, whether that's the way it's been pushed upon us internally, how we deal with each other, our systems, large or small, where we are doing that work, where you're doing revolutionary work. And there are so many levels of this. So it doesn't have to reach a certain threshold to be revolutionary. Every aspect of it is. And so there's always work to do and it can seem like a lot, but the good news is, is you could literally decide right now

to do a piece of it, whether that's, you know, looking at your own personal indoctrination and how you see yourself and how you have been asked to be a part of harm, whether it's looking at what's being taught in your kid's school and saying, hey, I'm going to have this conversation and really open up, you know, try to open up space and safety for these young people in these classrooms, there is always something to be done. And it's important to recognize that people are doing it and that the story of that is often erased. The truth is, is the vast majority of our systems don't serve a lot of people, especially our BIPOC populations and our queer and trans and disabled BIPOC populations.

It doesn't serve us. And therefore, we've had to create revolutionary systems that, you know, we are tweaking and experimenting with every day because we don't have any alternative. And yet, people don't have any alternative. And yet people don't talk about that and they really erase it so that you will think there's nothing to be done instead of saying what is being done. Because every day, like even, you know, listening to some of the stories that people I was talking to and watching them revolutionize their own lives and the people around them. And even if that's just two or three people total, that's huge. Especially if we consider all of us kind of taking those steps, we can make some really big change.

Do you think that people that are sort of beginning to be interested in justice movements or justice work, they fear that term? Because of just sort of how nebulous it is in our mind. So like instantly when we hear revolution, like we're thinking like literal historical like revolutions that have occurred in countries rather than this idea of like being a node within a system of change that is consistently sort of espousing like these different values that would help bring about that. Do you think that is like that? That's sort of an obstacle for people who are who are like, I know stuff's bad, but what can like, I don't know, revolution. And I don't know if I'm like a revolutionary kind of person. Do you think that sort of plays into sort of like the apathy, for lack of a better word for some

people? Yeah, I think the fear, right, because we we like to paint these very extreme pictures of what change looks like. And that's been done on purpose, right? So when we look at systems and we talk about systemic change, a lot of times people will immediately turn towards this really violent imagery because they want to. They want to make it seem like something that people can't join in on. But I think it's also really important to recognize that even in our history where we see what is known as violent revolution or very active military-type revolution, what you also have are years and years of social revolution that happened before and after. And where that doesn't happen, we actually see a lot of harm, right? So the real work is about how we see ourselves,

how we relate to each other, how we structure our systems. Often what makes news is first, the violent response to that, and then how people withstand that. And that can often look like the quote unquote revolutions that we see in news, right? We're not seeing people immediately going, I'm gonna, even when we think we do, I'm gonna go and I'm taking a gun and I'm overthrowing. Like that is not actually what we're seeing.

What we're usually seeing is years of social and political revolution happening, a violent response, and then people meeting that response. And that's that little snippet, that little piece is what makes the news. But then afterwards, we don't see the continued work of healing from that, of growing from that, of redefining. But that is done in large and small spaces every day. And it's done in ways that are so quiet, it doesn't make headlines because people don't want us to know it can be done that way. It doesn't mean that there will never be violent response. I mean, we saw that even in 2020, right?

We saw people taking guns to protest, right? To shoot peaceful protesters because this idea that it was a revolution, it was called a revolution because people were revolutionizing how they thought about systemic racism. And then people said, oh, let me get my gun and stop it, right? And the idea of it being violent, even now, like in history books, is likely going to come down and looking like Black people were in this violent uprising and not. We were part of this beautiful, moral, intellectual revolution that was met with an incredibly violent response. Because anything that threatens systems is considered a mortal threat to the systems. And they're going to treat it violently regardless of what tactics we have. And so I want people to look at that and recognize like, how much do I actually know?

What perspective, everything I've thought about as far as revolution, what perspective have I been given? Who's writing these stories and what really happened? And, you know, think about what does it mean to get people to change their minds? Because you can't do that at a gut point, you know? What is it getting people into the streets? What is getting people to say we want a new system? That's the actual revolution. Yeah. Yeah, we talk a lot on this show about the sort of attempt to kill our imagination when it comes to alternate systems to, you know, capitalism, policing, human caging.

You know, these are systems that have physically captured us because they're the systems we live inside, but they've also captured our imagination. Like, they're the systems that our movies take place inside. I always go back to movies because I think they have a profound impact

on, like, how people kind of view parts of the world that they haven't experienced. And like there's like movies about cops for a lot of our history. And it's been said that it's easier to imagine like a zombie apocalypse than the end of capitalism. And like that's why this book is so exciting, because it focuses on telling these stories and creating these alternatives. So I'm just curious, like how you came, how you approach that work. And then if there are any specific stories of these like alternative systems that you've seen people successfully implement that you think are particularly helpful for people's ability to imagine a world outside of the systems of capitalism, policing, and human caging? Yeah, I would say, as far as my approach, there were some people I knew that I wanted to talk to right away, people I had been in community with, in movement work with. But really, I was looking at what are the places where we're seeing change

happening or burgeoning change that doesn't get talked about? What are these stories that are really inspiring with people who've been on the ground doing this work for a long time? And then I started asking, as I was talking with people, who's inspiring you? Who's keeping you going? Who do you really want to see in these pages? And it really brought me into these spaces that even I hadn't known existed before and, you know, work that people were doing that I didn't know existed. And I really hope that when people go through this book, what they'll see is that wherever your interests lie, wherever your skills lie, there's space for you to make really important change. And so a lot of the things that I wasn't even sure were going to interest me, like as someone who is, you know, okay, so I love things

and I'm highly critical of capitalism, right? Which I think is a pretty universal idea. So I wasn't exactly thinking like, I'm going to have a chapter on business and show people how to do, you know, because I feel like we have like those weird books of like, do business better. And it's like, not, you know. It's his do capitalism. How to entrepreneur your way to systemic change. And so, you know, when I was talking with like Richie Messina in the book and actually reaching out to talk with him about his success stories project, which is, you know, an amazing organization that seeks to help men caught up in the prison industrial complex heal from violent white supremacist patriarchy. was like, actually, I want to talk about my abolitionist business. And I was like, what? You know, I had not set out for that. But hearing him talk about this reimagining and taking these principles that he had dedicated so much of his life to and saying, I'm going to apply it everywhere. And yeah, I want to have this clothing company and I want to apply it here. And I want to see if I can do something completely different with this was really beautiful.

And it totally, you know, caught me off guard because I really wasn't planning on including that in there. And, you know, looking at that and saying, Oh, even in these everyday things, we can actually challenge a lot of assumptions and try something really creative and see what we can, you know, see how we can further live these values. They don't just exist in one space. We don't say,

I'm a movement worker right now, and so I care about liberation when I'm marching. But then my relationship with my family, my children, and my coworkers is going to be highly patriarchal and hierarchical. That's not how this goes. And you can actually be quite revolutionary by just simply saying, all of these statuses I'm sharing, what if I live that? What if I, what if I said every, every time that I'm, you know, interacting with people or systems, I'm trying to bring those values into that. Well, I mean, I think that's really important too, because we are in such a social media centric age where there is a lot of like this, you know, digital activism for lack of a better word, where it's like, sure, I will retweet or share something like, and I see this so often too, like, I mean, in 2020, it was amazing how many people were like digitally on their shit, you know, I was like, oh, okay,

okay, only for it to fizzle out pretty quickly thereafter, unless I think especially for people who weren't part of these communities that were at the highest risk. What is the challenge that we should be laying out to people who are like, OK, clearly you feel like this is something worth saying. I will share my handle on social media to rebroadcast this message. But I just can't quite get there. Is it like, what sort of examination do we need to do like internally, whether that's like, I mean, like when your whole chapter on ableism had me really like inspecting my own beliefs and how limiting my own beliefs were around that and how much, you know, that Asharian stare sort of metaphor was about like how ableism is just intertwined with everything, especially because we're in this capitalist mindset about productivity and what productive bodies do or do not do.

So like, what are the what are the kinds of steps I think that everyone can do? Because I think many people are like, I know what has to be done. I can live for me as a black and Asian person. I'm very able to it's very easy for me to speak about anti-Asian racism or anti-black racism, things like that. But ableism a little bit different. My life isn't intersecting-Black racism, things like that. But ableism, a little bit different. My life isn't intersecting with those kinds of things as much. I try to talk about other issues around transphobia and homophobia as much because I do know people in those communities. But what are the kind of nudges we need to be giving ourselves to be like, okay,

our head's in the right place, but now let's take it beyond the retweet. How do we do that without freaking somebody out? Because again, I think people think that can be very daunting or it's just not their place maybe to take it further than that. Yeah. I would say my number one advice is to start small. So I usually advise people, start where your interest lies, whether that's a hobby or anything like that. You know, you can start with, and as someone who has written, you know, very popular books on race and racism, I get emails from people about their issues. So trust me, there is no segment, there is no hobby you have that doesn't have a systemic racism issue or systemic oppression issue. racism issue or systemic oppression issue. And like, you know, a couple of years ago, I remember there was a big kerfuffle in the knitting community about racism as far as whose patterns get published and things like that. Right. I was getting, I know because I get emails

from people saying, you know, I love advice when people are tagging me and saying, you should read this book. So the truth is, is you can pick that one space and say, what's happening in this space? How are people moving through this space or have access to this space? Who's invited to this space? How does it differ from my experience? And where does my privilege lie? And so if you just pick that one little space, if you love knitting and you're saying, whose patterns get published or who gets to go to writing conferences and get seen or who's appropriating culture in these sorts of things, I'm going to focus on this and I'm going to go, you know, look for the voices of people who have been talking about this because people do not

suffer in silence. And I'm just going to start here. I'm going to learn as much as I can about this one little space. And I'm going to learn to leverage my power in that space. Because chances are, if you're in that space, you have some level of power or privilege or knowledge that makes you better suited to start there. Once you have that idea and you're listening to people who are saying, yeah, you know what, like I went to this conference and I was treated like crap and I would really love it if organizers would do this. Okay, you have an action now, right? You have a thing you can join in on, you can ask about. But once your knowledge deepens about that and you start to see how it works, you'll be surprised at how quickly

you can apply that to other spaces. And you can hear other people talking about what problems they're having and you'll have a reference and you can be like, oh, you know what? That is actually so similar to how it's set up in the knitting space. Let me support you in any way I can. And I get it now. And I'm not starting from scratch. And it's a great way to start. And even in the book, you have people like Ian Head in the book, whose foundation for his incredibly meaningful legal aid work, helping incarcerated people advocate for themselves and helping to get the important verdicts on stop and frisk policing, started with his love of hip hop. You know, it started because he loved rap, right? And delving into that and saying, what is happening? What is the reality for these musicians that I love, who are trying to, you know, really tell me what's going on? And what can I do here? And branching from there, you know, ended up with

a lifelong passion and mission that he has found incredibly rewarding and has had real measurable impacts on communities. So I think it's so important for people to recognize that, you know, wherever people exist in systems like these issues happen and therefore it matters that we address it. And so it doesn't always have to be, I'm going to look at who's the president and I'm going to focus here, or I'm only going to focus on police brutality. It's I can focus in my one space because every day people are being impacted and it will give me the context to also be able to stand in solidarity on these other larger issues.

Let's take a quick break. We'll come back. We'll keep talking. We'll be right back. I'm Jess Casavetto, We'll be diving even deeper into the unbelievable stories behind 7M Films and LA-based Shekinah Church, an alleged cult that has impacted members for over two decades. Jessica and I will delve into the hidden truths between high control groups and interview dancers, church members, and others whose lives and careers have been impacted, just like mine. Through powerful, in-depth interviews with former members and new, chilling firsthand accounts, the series will illuminate untold and extremely necessary perspectives. Forgive Me For I Have Followed will be more than an exploration. It's a vital revelation aimed at ensuring these types of abuses never happen again. Listen to Forgive Me For I Have Followed on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Give me for I Have Followed on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. This summer, the nation watched as the Republican nominee for president was the target of two assassination attempts separated by two months. These events were mirrored nearly 50 years ago when President Gerald Ford faced two attempts on his life in less than three weeks. President Gerald R. Ford came stunningly close to being the victim of an assassin today. And these are the only two times we know of that a woman has tried to assassinate a U.S. president. One was the protege of infamous cult leader Charles Manson. I always felt like Lynette was kind of his right hand woman. The other, a middle-aged housewife working undercover for the FBI in a violent revolutionary underground.

Identified by police as Sarah Jean Moore. The story of one strange and violent summer. This is Rip Current. Available now with new episodes every Thursday. Listen on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I've been thinking about you.

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Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. And we're back. And, you know, we've been covering, this show's been, we've been doing this daily show for a long time and, you know, covering the incredibly consistent energy pushing back against ideas like defund the police and abolitionism coming from places like the New York Times, you know, places that coming into adulthood, I had been told were like liberal or progressive. were like liberal or progressive. And it feels like there's a lot of parts of the mainstream media that have kind of pushed past

the idea of defunding the police. Like it's settled law among people that like defund the police was bad politics. Like everybody heard James Carville say it. And they're like, well, I guess that's true. If that old swamp creature says it. That old snake say it. I don't like that. Yeah, I guess that's true. If that old swamp creature says it. That old snake say it. I don't like that.

Yeah, that's a backwards idea. But I'd just be curious to hear from you on how are you seeing progress made in the fight for abolishing the current system of policing and human caging, maybe just talking about what is abolitionism currently as you see it and what are the areas that abolitionists are currently working on? I mean, yeah, I would say it's incredibly broad. Abolitionism, people have multiple understandings of it, but the one I worked from is abolitionism is the fight to end enslavement, incarceration, and exploitation of people that is based in the model of chattel slavery. And so what we are in is a continuation of chattel slavery and that exploitation of people and the imprisonment and enslavement of people. And we see it in the ways in which our systems have built.

Now that is wrong because we actually see that in our mental health system. We see this in our quote unquote child welfare system, and we see it in our incarceration systems, in our school systems. And so there are a lot of different places to fight this and say, you know, people have the right to their own autonomy. We don't have the right to say that only certain people deserve freedom, deserve liberation, deserve a second chance, deserve to learn and grow and change and be a part of community. And that we will look at the problems we face as a community and with the fundamental belief that as a community, we can solve it because these problems don't exist in a vacuum. If these problems are rooted in society and community and our systems, then we can solve them. And I think that that is

fundamental to this work. And so a lot of people will try to fight that and say, you know, with fear-mongering, well, if there's no cops tomorrow, what are you going to do? As if there isn't a process, isn't a system. And often I would say, you know, that fear-mongering glazes over how incredibly brutal the reality is, right? Which is that, you know, we have a system that does nothing to deter harm or crime that is stealing away large percentages of our population that is leading to the forced treatment and incarceration of mentally ill people. And we're not safer. We're no safer, right? And so this idea that trying something new would be worse, how much worse?

Yeah. Than this? Yeah. Yeah. It's a system that, like, inserts, you know, exports brutality into the world that we live in. were forced at all of these you know stories and cop shows of if it weren't for a cop you know and i think one of the most important things that was said to me by janae khan years back we were talking and they said you know cops can't prevent crime they can only respond after it's happened and yet we act as if that's the opposite like you can't you know unharm someone with a police

officer and if anything they're showing up and creating a whole new level of crime and so this That's the opposite. Like you can't, you know, unharm someone with a police officer. And if anything, they're showing up and creating a whole new level of crime. And so this idea that it would make us safer just doesn't make any sense. And so I think it's important to recognize like that there's something so deeply hopeful and beautiful in abolitionism in that fundamentally it believes in people. Like it believes that we can actually solve this that no one is irredeemable that we we can look at societal issues and address them and change the way that we relate to each other but we can heal each other and that yes we can address safety at the same time and it doesn't mean it's perfect but oh my goodness what we have

right now is is causing more harm than good. And so that means that there's so many different ways in which we can do this work and you can pick different spots. And yeah, it can seem like we'll never get there, right? That we're not going to have a time where there aren't policing, but every time that we can kind of remove the tasks given to policing and carceral systems, every time that we can dismantle pieces of it and strengthen alternatives, we're doing really important abolitionist work. And we can do that and still say, this shouldn't exist. So I always say that, like, it is abolitionist to say, I don't want cops in schools. It's abolitionists to say that people

need to be given alternatives to incarceration. It is abolitionists to say that people shouldn't be given forced treatment for mental health issues against their will. It is abolitionists to do all of these. And I can say that, work for it and saying, I don't want any cops. I can say that, right? While also working towards these things that are available to me right now. I mean, yeah, I think with, especially when it relates to policing, right? And we, like you said, the status quo is violence,

is dysfunction, is increased harm. It's not solution-based. It's not about identifying root causes. Yet so many people are so frightened to make the change that like the fear instantly turns like passionate defenses of the status quo. So then the next thing that you get offered, especially from legislators, politicians, is our reforms. Right. And we talk a lot about reform is not we're just just, we're just, you're just putting different, a different coat of paint on the same problem. How do you sort of like balance, obviously the need for these kinds of like deeper changes or at least different, like different kind of emphasis alongside like the reforms?

Because a lot of the times you get these sort of these debates now where people are like, well, don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good. They're saying they'll tell in cops to use a slightly lighter baton or something. And we're supposed to be like, oh, OK, yes, sure. But like, how do we sort of in a world where people are so focused and able to say like, no, like a lot of our crime is because of desperation or lack of support. That's what we need to be doing. I don't want to hear about anything unless I mean, talk to me when we're getting rid of qualified immunity or something of support. That's what we need to be doing. I don't want to hear about anything unless, I mean, talk to me when we're getting rid of qualified immunity or something like that.

How do you, how should people sort of like look at this balance of understanding what glacial incremental sort of reform can do versus trying to like, for lack of a better word, hope for something revolutionary, something different, something that's sort of upending the status quo? That's a great question. And it is something that we talk about in the book. It's so vital that we understand the difference between like true liberation, liberatory work and harm reduction and recognize what's neither. Because a lot of what we say is police reform is neither harm reduction or liberatory work. And we have to say, at least give us some harm reduction, right? And so it's really important to listen to the people most impacted by it and the people who are actually experts on this from the perspective of communities

harmed, right? And say, no, this doesn't work. And we know this doesn't work and listen to that and be really, really clear because people will sell you anything and call it revolutionary. And then we will, they'll label, you know, harm reduction as like this huge attack on the system. And we're not even getting to like the meat of it. Harm reduction matters, absolutely matters because the truth is, is if we have these long-term big goals, we have to be alive to get there. But that means we have to be honest about what it is. And so, you know, when, first of all, if it's offered to us by the system, throw it away.

We've got an idea. Oh, yeah. Right. We've got an idea. Oh, okay. We don't want that, right? You got to listen. We have to listen and listen to the communities who've been building alternatives, right? Because communities, when we build alternatives, some of those are revolutionary. Some of those are harm reduction, right? And so we already kind of know what direction works and what direction doesn't. And so when it comes to issues that are as big as like policing and say we would hate, you know, we don't want this system here. You know, harm reduction, you know, would be things like that, you know, it leads to an increase in arrests of Black and Brown and Indigenous and disabled students with no actual

reduction in harm. And it's not, and whether they're, you know, arrested has no ties to violence in schools, drugs in schools, or anything like that. It's just, do you have Black students? Do you have cops? Now we have more Black students arrested. So we know it doesn't work, right? So harm reduction would be, you know, getting them out. And we know it doesn't work, right? So harm reduction would be, you know, getting them out. And that isn't, you know, it's an abolitionist practice in that it is, you know, getting them out, but it's not getting rid of the system. Other ones would be, you know, before you start referring, making calls, kicking kids out of school and getting them in this, in these pipelines, you know, what, who, who oversees

that, right? Who approves that? What records do you have? Whatever things are you trying first? Those are all things that are really important to look at while saying, while recognizing if the system still stays in place, it's not getting rid of the system. And so we can work towards that, push towards that, don't accept anything that re-entrenches the system. And so retraining always re-entrenches the system. Retraining is never going to be a harm reduction. It's just putting more money into a system and asking, you know, and we've shown that they don't come out, you know,

gentler, kinder, more understanding of community. They come out with more police officers, you know, and they come out with more levels of excuses for why they're doing what they're doing. And so just listening to community on that is really, really vital. But when it comes to every day, and if you're looking at smaller things we can do, you know, if you live in an area that has cash bail programs, getting rid of cash bail is one of the most vital things you can do right now, right? You know, in Washington, here, we have like pay to stay,

where people actually have to pay for their incarceration if they work out a deal and they want to go in early so that they aren't away from their family for three years and maybe six months. racist, racist, and getting rid of that doesn't get rid of the system. But it's also a really, really important step that we can take right now to reduce the numbers of people caught up in this population, in these systems and how long they're caught up in them. And that gives us what we need, the strength we need in community to keep fighting. Just how do you think about the pushback from the mainstream media? Just that's been something that I've tried to get my head around, trying to picture the editorial meetings at these major journalistic institutions where they decide, let's go with this story where the police are the only source for the information. Do you think of that as being put in place by powers like architecturally structured to put this power in place? Because I also feel like there's also some desire for that narrative coming from below also, like from the readership. And I'm just wondering, like, how you think about that. Does

that inform how you approach people when you're trying to talk to them about, you know, the carceral system and, you know, things like that? There's this big infrastructure of power and money that is like trying to keep these institutions in place. But then there's also people who are just really quick to believe the bullshit stories. And I don't know if it's because that's what they've always had, if it's because

it preserves their feeling of superiority and protection. But just interested to hear your thoughts on that. I think it's a mix of things, right? So one, I do think that if people were, you know, if the reality of systemic oppression were laid bare for all people and the way in which people have been made to participate in the oppression of others was laid bare for all people, that people

would decline to participate in that, especially if they were able to see how it impacts their own personal safety. No one is safe in a police state, whether or not we've been told we are, even if you have privilege. Only the very select few are, and often that is only for a limited time. But that is something that people don't want, and so that is often kept from the people who are made to participate most, right? People with the most privilege. The reality of how unsafe we are is something that many of us can't escape, you know, and which is why we're often the first and most outspoken about trying to change it. But that unsafety exists for everyone

and that culpability exists and people want to avoid it and people have been protected from it. But that unsafety exists for everyone. And that culpability exists. And people want to avoid it. And people have been protected from it. And their bellies are soft to it. You know what I mean? They haven't built up that tolerance for it and have been told that they would fall apart if they knew the reality, that they couldn't handle it. And they're fed a constant diet of fear. When we look at our media and this constant fear of the other fear of this danger that is pumped into people right we look at these shows where it's just this random person gets a thirst for blood and is out murdering people who's gonna come help you or you know like this you know gang violence where the gang leaders are just soulless creatures who popped out of

nowhere and they're gonna take over your city if you don't you know have this people are fed that and people who don't have that first-hand experience with the reality of these systems and are living this completely alternate reality and are being told no other reality exists that you know you you would feel comfortable calling a cop knowing they could help you get your cat out of a tree or whatever, and you'd be safe, and everyone would, because that's your reality. Challenging that makes the world terrifying, right? It can make the world seem really terrifying. Challenging how you've been made a part of it can seem really terrifying. It can make you feel really powerless in a way that many of know, many of us have never had the luxury of avoiding.

And people will put up walls around that. And it has little to do with intent. It has, you can say you care, you know, and you love, but if you're not actively challenging these ideas and willing to sit with that discomfort, then you'll have a problem. And people don't want to hear it, right? People really don't want to hear it. They don't want it to land on their doorstep if they are thinking about things like police brutality they want the name of the one cop that they can yell at and blame because if it's a

system and they're you know paying taxes into that system if they've been supporting that system if they voted for the candidate who said they'll bring law and order and safety to their area, knowing that that meant it would increase cops in Black and Brown communities, right, then there's a whole level of culpability. And if that thing that they've been pouring money and effort into would endanger their disabled child, they don't want to know, they don't want that, they don't want that reality. And so it's really important that we challenge it while also showing that people are building alternatives. And that like idea that we could build something else is kept from a lot of people who've never had to. And so it's always wild to me when people say, well, what are you going to do? You know, what are you going to do if someone rates you? That's the thing people say a lot to me, right yeah right especially as women people will weaponize that against me and i'm like first

of all i'm absolutely a survivor of sexual assault as many women have been and please do anything right and my healing my sense of safety came from the practices that like my black and brown community had to build to try to address this because we always knew that we weren't going to find safety in the system and we weren't going to find repair in the system. And so those kind of ideas, these things that are thrown out, erases the fact that right now, a large segment of Black, Brown, and Indigenous populations, queer and trans populations, large segment of Black, Brown, and Indigenous populations, queer and trans populations, absolutely know that they could never find safety in our systems. And they have to build elsewhere,

and they have been. But that is completely erased. The ways in which we solve conflict is erased. The ways in which we ensure safety is erased. The way in which we heal each other and ourselves has been erased. And it all comes down to, you have to trust this person with a gun. Nothing else has been done. Nothing else can work. And so media, I think, plays a huge part in that. They're invested in that because one, they personally don't want to investigate that. And I've talked with editors, you know, as a writer who don't personally want to investigate it. They want to keep it in a comfortable place for them, but also they have funders who are systemically invested in this. And there is a real backlash for people publicly taking a stand and saying, we're going to address the real roots of this. People have been made to pay. And I do think that people are afraid of that and afraid of challenging those assumptions. Yeah. I think one of the most, like one of sort of inspiring passages for me, or just to, just to kind of put everything into perspective, right. Cause we started off being like revolution, just feel like this scary idea. And like, even though I know, like we need to actually look out for everybody, true liberation is only when every single person is liberated.

Like, even if they don't look like me or not part of my community that there was, I think it was Miriam Kaba who you were saying, like, what's really put this into perspective was like, it's, it's not about like these big things, right? It's like, I, I, and I'm, I might be butchering the quote, but it's just about taking out, removing just the bricks of like these oppressive systems. It doesn't have to be a wrecking ball type moment because if, if everybody's taken a brick out one by one for themselves, shit will start crumbling. That's just there's just no way for something structurally to keep its structural integrity if we're always like just kind of picking away at it. And I think that's a really important message for I think and I really encourage our listeners to really to check your book out because we are in such a time right now where I feel like everyone feels like they're banging their head against a wall and they're like, I'm seeing this happen right

now. Am I like, but we're not doing the right things. And I think it really is an empowering message a to see these other stories of people who a lot of are starting from absolute powerlessness and then opening the door to something really, really substantive and really monumental without necessarily that being the initial intention of it, of just, it was more just about advocating for yourself. So I really thank you for, for putting all of these stories together and your words around it, because as someone who's done like work from all over the political spectrum, from being a lobbyist to being like in the streets and things like that i've always sort of grappled with these feelings of like where my power lies or how i can actually exercise that and what it what it means to be revolutionary or not and i think it makes it a

very accessible way and i think is very powerful i think for people to understand that it's just about these small actions because they all like we can't just think we can't we have to get out of like this superhero mentality of them like i'm gonna figure it out by myself right now rather than can i contribute to a community that's doing well can i from my space say you know what maybe we don't need funding that's contingent upon us interacting with the police to keep our non-profit going etc etc so yeah i i just again i feel like thank you for for putting this book out and yeah really great to just be able to to speak with you today it's just been really eye-opening and i'm sure our listeners have had the same experience too yeah truly a pleasure thank you for coming on all right we'll

have to have you back on again yeah but thank you for writing this book thank you for coming on to talk to us about it where can people find the the book, find you, all that good stuff? You can find the book anywhere books are sold. I highly recommend if you're buying online, go to bookshop.org or your local indie store or Libro.fm if you listen to your audiobooks, because those all support our independent booksellers, which is super important. And you can find me. All you have to know is how to spell my name.

I figure you learned that. You can find me on social media. Everything is under my name. You can find my sub stack. You can find my Instagram. You can find my Facebook. And I just hope that people love the book, engage with it,

and find their own little piece of revolution that they can be a part of. Yeah. It's I-J-E-O-M-A-O-L-U-O for people looking to spell, spell spelling there. Amazing. Is there a work of media that you've been enjoying? Yeah, I have been really loving the, so for me, like kind of relaxing, finding a little bit of joy is this segment of like young black male fashion influencers who are really embracing like really colorful flamboyant fashion skirts heels suits cosplay

kind of turning it all into their own thing in a way that I feel like only the black community really can and I love them so I have just been been, you know, Wisdom K is like when I think of that pops to mind right away, but there's a lot of like these young early twenties Black men who are like, you know what? I want to wear clothes and I just want to wear things that are beautiful. And I'm going to be walking around the streets of New York in this beautiful thing from head to toe, and I'm going to blog it and I want people to see it. And I just, that itself, you know, every day for our community where so much of our definitions of masculinity have been externally imposed upon us to have this younger generation say, actually, this is what this looks like for

me. And I'm going to define it proudly and show it for other people to find their own definition of self is also a really revolutionary thing while also being beautiful to look at amazing miles where can people find you is there a work of media you've been enjoying uh yeah you can find me on twitter and instagram and other at based platforms at miles of gray find jack and i on our basketball podcast miles if you like something a little casual check out my 90-day fiance podcast for 20-day fiance uh and let's see a tweet i like is from socialist sopranos memes at gobble ghoul marks it's a picture of paulie talking to tony and he's got his hands up and he says all i'm saying t is if

they're gonna nominate barbie for best, they probably should have nominated some of them broads that was involved. Just capturing the angst of all the Oscar snuffs. And the way Socialist Sopranos memes only knows how. Tweet I've been enjoying is just Kevin Durant's response to finding out that joel mb scored 70 points last week i don't know this one really stuck with me kevin durant is my favorite basketball fan he's like obviously one of the best players of all time right but he just gets this look of like kind of i don't know joy and he just like kind of gets this thousand-yard stare. He's like, you turned 70?

Wow. I was so excited. Just a great moment to appreciate. What a great basketball fan Kevin Durant is. Yeah, he's one of us. You can find me on Twitter at Jack underscore O'Brien. You can find us on Twitter at Daily Zeitgeist. We're at The Daily Zeitgeist on Instagram. We have a Facebook fan page and on Twitter, at Daily Zeitgeist. We're at The Daily Zeitgeist

on Instagram. We have a Facebook fan page and a website, dailyzeitgeist.com, where we post our episodes and our footnotes. Footnotes. Where we link off

to the information that we talked about in today's episode, as well as a song that we think you might enjoy. Miles, is there a song that you think people might enjoy?

Yeah, two of some of my favorite producers, DJs, get together every now and then. That's Kareem Riggins and Madlib. And they do this little project called the Jahari Masamba Unit. And it's just a blend of their, you know, jazzy hip hop sort of roots

with a little bit of like African rhythm. So this track is called Masamba Afundance. A-F-U-N-D-A-N-C-E. And it's just a great track. And if you like Kareem Riggins or Madlib on their own, you'll definitely love them together on this one. So check this one out. All right, we will link off to that in the footnotes.

The Daily Zeitgeist is a production of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows. That is going to do it for us this morning. Back this afternoon to tell you what is trending. And we will talk to you all then. Bye. Bye. I'm Jess Casavetto, executive producer of the hit Netflix documentary series, Dancing for the Devil, the 7M TikTok cult. And I'm Clea Gray, former member of 7M Films and Shekinah Church. And we're the host of the new podcast, Forgive Me For I Have Followed.

Together, we'll be diving even deeper into the unbelievable stories behind 7M Films and Shekinah Church. Listen to Forgive Me For I Have Followed on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, I'm Gianna Pradenti. And I'm Jemay Jackson-Gadson. We're the hosts of Let's Talk Offline from LinkedIn News and iHeart Podcasts. There's a lot to figure out when you're just starting your career. That's where we come in. Think of us as your work besties you can turn to for advice.

And if we don't know the answer, we bring in people who do, like negotiation expert Maury Tahiripour. If you start thinking about negotiations as just a conversation, then I think it sort of eases us a little bit. Listen to Let's Talk Offline on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Keri Champion, and this is season four of Naked Sports. Up first, I explore the making of a rivalry, Kaitlyn Clark versus Angel Reese. Every great player needs a foil. I know I'll go down in history. People are talking about women's basketball just because of one single game. Clark and Reese have changed the way we consume women's sports.

Listen to the making of a rivalry. Kaitlyn Clark versus Angel Reese. On the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Presented by Capital One, founding partner of iHeart Women's Sports.