The Daily Zeitgeist - Special Episode - Black Liberation Is The American Zeitgeist

Episode Date: February 13, 2021

In this special Saturday episode of TDZ, Miles and Jack take a look at some of the underrated ways Black Americans created the modern Zeitgeist. Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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especially alongside some of my favorite chefs and foodies, like Benny Blanco, Jake Cohen, Lighty Hoyk, Alison Roman, and Ina Garten. So I started a free newsletter called Good Taste to share recipes, tips, and kitchen must-haves. Just sign up at katiecouric.com slash goodtaste. That's K-A-T-I-E-C-O-U-R-I-C dot com slash goodtaste. I promise your taste buds will be happy you did. I promise your taste buds will be happy you did. And today, in honor of Black History Month, we wanted to tell some stories of underrated ways that black Americans throughout history created the modern zeitgeist. And then we're, you know, these are stories that I didn't learn in my history education. I'm going to say something.

Nobody learns any proper black history in school like unless you're unless you're fortunate enough to go to a school where the faculty or the administration there is like no we actually need a holistic well-thought-out uh curriculum around the history of people of color black people through the lens of their experience rather than the oppressors lens, which is like, and they wanted that and we gave it to them and now they're good. Yeah. Yeah.

So let's just kick off here with Bessie Coleman, who I think one of the things from early 20th century imagination that we like can't quite appreciate is how into aviation people were like people were obsessed with the, I mean, because they flying had just been invented. People were super into that. Uh,

you know, fighter pilots in world War I were heroes. And, you know, I think it's the closest I could come is like in the 2000s, 2010s, when like it was really cool to be like in the tech industry and like how quickly that shifted. industry and like how quickly that shifted uh but instead of just like you know mark zuckerberg making a lot of money the people who are flying planes and like you know being brave enough to experiment with the stuff were uh you know doing heroic acts and winning wars so it was just a super central part of the you know collective collective imagination of Americans in the early 20th century. And then it developed so quickly that it passed from humans rocketing through thin air to something we get annoyed if it isn't fast and convenient enough, like in the span of 50 years but right at the time people were blown away by anybody who was going up in the air um people you know idolized them and that's where uh bessie coleman comes in she was known as uh queen bessie the aviatrix uh she grew up uh her parents were sharecroppers uh and then her dad basically left the family

uh to go live on native he was uh part native american part african-american and he went to live on uh tribal land uh because she was just terrible uh, it was easier there and it wasn't, it wasn't easy there. Um, but so yeah, like watching that evolution of her, like, I love reading this anecdote about how she even got into flying because

her brother fought in world war one. Right. And was, and was in France and saw what, what France was like. and he was like oh the ladies out they they're just doing shit yeah like they just they okay so he came back it's like fucking with his sister like yeah you think you're big time but in france he's like women are liberated and they can do anything even fly and it's just funny how it was you know i think in talking about

black history stories and we were talking about this off mic and even thinking about like how we would talk about you know contributions of african americans or like what a what an episode looks like about talking about african american history in the context of a black history month episode and it's not just about a listicle about interesting things african-american people have done um and sort of juxtaposing that with how hard it is i think most people do that but you have to take that extra step to begin to actually think about it's not just that oh wow it was so hard during this time it's that all of these like inspiring stories all of these art forms a lot of things we're going to talk about they're born out of the pursuit of

black people seeking liberation seeking a way to be as free as they saw other people specifically white people um whether that is from the eras of slavery or Jim Crow, but there's this yearning for the feeling of freedom of liberation. And from that, you get such real deep stories or art forms that are just so undeniable. So, yeah, like, so even as I think about Bessie Coleman, it's like, yes, she was there. Part of her pursuit of even like being trained as a pilot was that she caught wind of liberation. Yeah. She just heard of freedom. Yeah. Right. And so she's asking, you know, I think she what crowdfunded a way to even get to France because there's no way she was going to, you know, get herself to France in that time and people are like she's the smart like so smart like they you know she got people to believe in her to do it but yeah yeah but it's just like it's fantastic to see like what it takes to get there but also not forgetting that it is it's all intertwined with the tragedy tragedy of oppression. Um, and again, the pursuit of freedom, just that feeling just to, to be you. And in this instance, it was that she's a black woman in a country that forget even just women being able to, you know, become aviators. Um, but like the other, the additional barrier of racism and things like that, that you have to go to another country that you're still even thinking like, but I still want to be free.

So then that means I have to go to this place. So it's like, yeah, it's like half tragedy, half beauty. But it's also also really, you know, thinking of what all of these achievements actually mean in the context of the continued pursuit of liberation for black people and all people at this point but in this context yeah and that tension between you know the tragedy of oppression the beauty of the you know struggle and genius that people brought to the struggle for liberation that tension is the history of america like that contradiction is the history of america it's not the history of uh black america it's the history of America. It's not the history of black America. It's the history of America straight up.

And it gets edited out, and that's a disservice to everyone when it gets edited out of the story of America. It doesn't allow for a true understanding of American history. Absolutely not. I mean, the things I've learned just from studying history are so mind blowing. Like there's the one, the only reason I, you know, I went to, I went to college cause you know, you're sort of inundated this idea of like, you must go to college for get job. Um, and so I did that, but I didn't, I knew I didn't want to have like be an accountant or whatever. I thought I was probably going to be some silly man at some point, but I knew if I didn't do that, I wanted to teach history. So I, I studied a lot of history. I was like my major, but like the things you learn just about our everyday lives from understanding your history,

it's so valuable. And like the fact that, you know, a lot of the times these things are obscured or distilled or washed whitewashed in a certain way. Um it it keeps us from actually connecting to the real truth not to say that it's like you need to know how ugly things i mean you do but you also need to know that to be able to envision a better version of that because if you don't have that context then you're kind of you're trying to make something without a real recipe card yeah so with regards to bessie coleman you know crowdfunding again when she came back knowing how to fly uh there weren't jobs for her uh there weren't jobs for black pilots there weren't jobs for women pilots uh and so again she had to rely on the generosity of others and basically fly in donated planes uh which ends up she one of them

dies while it's in the air she crashes breaks a bunch of bones and then a few years later another donated plane uh crashes and she dies young but she is a star and And I mean, just with, we, we talk about the, the damage that's done by white supremacy, you know, both with people of color, but also on white people and like the cognitive dissonance that is like that lie in their brain.

And I think that, you know, that's also a battle that's being waged across time and anybody who you know that that seed of doubt anybody who comes in being like no you know a black woman couldn't fly a plane surely this is the most uh complicated uh difficult thing to do and that's something that you know was taken into world war ii that was still like the standard narrative in world war ii and but anybody who saw her or knew her or read about her and the mainstream media tried to edit her out uh of of history but anybody who saw that that you know

that seed of doubt you can't ignore that that's that's gonna grow in your mind and in like across the culture basically well and i think in a way like you'll see this over a lot of the topics we talk about like to your point is if you're on a diet of saying that this group of people is inferior or less than you and you have to behold their humanity and genius that will do something to you some people can move past and evolve and say well i just took a l intellectually there because i just i've effed around and found out um or you will go and further enter your denial um but yeah it but these are these moments that like that inspire and you know that it doesn't end with Bessie Coleman. Like there's she inspires. She continues to inspire even after her death. the black community, like aviation becomes a thing, uh, that people are, you know, that that's just a concept that people are pursuing, uh, that, you know, in small part or no small part, like it

has an effect that ends up with, uh, the Tuskegee airmen who in world war two were, you know, who in World War II were basically twice as good as any other pilot in terms of they fought. They were great fighter pilots shooting German planes down without losing any pilots or losing any planes. And then when they had to do bomber accompaniment, like, which is the hardest thing to do. They. Because you're all going around the slow plane underneath the anti-air artillery. Just like, OK, so this would be easy to blow out the sky. Yeah. They lost like half as many planes as any other unit per per mission. And yeah, just had to be twice as good, which is something that.

I mean, that's a trope throughout. twice as good which is something that i mean that's a trope throughout and you know i heard it from my own father whose father told him you're when you are you have an awareness of what it means to be black in america you are told you will have to be twice as good to get half as much yeah or in general you have to be twice as good to get noticed and it's yeah i mean you're you're watching it's like even statistically there are people who are like twice as good for half the recognition yeah um and even with bessie coleman like to just touch on liberation again one of her biggest inspirations was that she saw that black people were being left behind because they could not get into aviation. Right. And she really felt, she said, for our people to keep pace with the rest of the world, we have to find a way to get into aviation as well. This is a new tech, like we have to be there.

And again, just, it's about the, like a lot of these people, it's not just like, oh, I want to do this or that. It's really about like, we know that there is a way to get something better for our people. And we're invested in a country that is taking a really long time. Right. To figure out what that is. And, but exactly to your point, the entire, you know,

pace of American history is about this back and forth of like trying to understand the racist origins with how they're we're also embracing these cultures to be our own and what that means and everything so yeah yeah i mean the another kind of military story is the harlem hellfighters that i mean we can touch on really briefly but the american military in world war one was like we don't really want black soldiers. Yeah, very segregated. And they lent this group to the French military, to the French army in World War I. american soldiers in world war one uh also had a military band that uh was incredibly influential in europe when they were there and then came back and was a huge contributing factor to uh the

harlem renaissance right uh but they came back from the war being like we more than proved ourselves there's a dude who was so amazing that they put his face on uh war bond stamps like uh he was a national hero they came back and were like all right like so uh i think they called it the two front war where they wanted you know victory in europe but then they wanted to come home and fight for equality and they uh instead faced that was right at the time when there was this huge white lash uh as van jones called the trump uh election which i i think happens throughout history right um but that was the there was the red summer uh so-called, because it was a very bloody summer of slaughters by white people against black families. And then there was the Tulsa massacre.

That was all happening then, the resurgence of the KKK, because there was just a pushback because of white supremacy being a, you know, works hard. Right. It is a self-sustaining force in the culture. And with this, again, you know, Harlem Hellfighters, they go, they fight longer and harder than anyone. And the American soldiers didn't want to be with them. So they had to get loaned out to the French. They'd be like, well,

I guess they'll fuck with you. Um, they didn't, they were not allowed to participate in the sending off parade to go to war. That was, they were not, they were not,

uh, given that dignity. What to leave, to fight and die. They also experienced the most losses, I believe, uh, for any fighting unit

but then they but they came back and they gave them a parade and all this to say is like again like you're saying this double victory this idea of how african americans can serve in the military and have served since the american revolution yeah but we don't talk about that because i think it's probably ends with like christmas addicts or something like that and we think of like okay well that that black man died in the in the boston massacre um but when you talk about this double victory it's about yes defending a country that has even has enslaved you but it's because you know that this could help people to see that you're also pulling in the same direction as this country

and you're you want to also this to contribute to a larger movement for liberation equality and justice that we can you know what we'll go there we'll serve our country because unfortunately we have to still prove to these people in the American, in America, that we are also Americans that deserve the same respect. But yeah, it's, it's just like, it's just, again,

it's a nonstop thing, but at every level or at every point in history, we have these moments. And I mean, to think of just, you know, the, the contributions throughout most military conflicts of black soldiers,

I would blow most people's minds because it wasn't until maybe seven years. I was well out of college before I actually began to see starting back at the American Revolution what truly the contributions were in this military context. Yeah. and the Harlem Hellfighters had to be like honored posthumously and were only given recognition in like the 2000s or by the Clinton administration in the 90s. And it's just like. Right. I think that's why it's not enough to just have kind of retrospective things

about being like, this is what's cool about the people that did these things. We also have to talk about how even in that time, people were not giving them props. Like, like it's happening now. It was a completely different era, but also one that we have to look in its eye to understand that there's, we have to actually address this and how are we, um, how can we correct and improve how our, you know know our country can move forward and evolve um in a way that truly is like honoring the contributions of all these people we're going to talk about who just you know even though it could be about changing music or sports it's all born out of this singular feeling of wanting to be free and that that is still owed um to

black people in this country um but we're still trying to figure out how we're going to do that but even even though with that said still continue to to to make strides and and create you know these achievements or works of art that just continue yeah you mentioned music and we are going to talk about that next. But first, let's take a quick break, and we'll be right back. This summer, the nation watched as the Republican nominee for president was the target of two assassination attempts, separated by two months. These events were mirrored nearly 50 years ago when President Gerald Ford faced two attempts on his life

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iheart radio and realm listen to dream sequence on the iheart radio app apple podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts and we're back and you, when you talk about the history of popular music in America, I think I had an awareness that there's been a pervasive process of invention by Black Americans, followed by theft and popularization by white artists from Elvis to the Beastie Boys to Eminem to modern artists. There's this article by Wesley Morris, the New York Times critic, about the history of music that really makes it clear that this is the primary story of, like we were saying, it's not just the story of black history it's the story of american history and this is the story of american music like he in this article he points out that like there wasn't really an american music prior to the minstrel show like that that was a thing like

americans were into like you know, just really Western European classical. Exactly. Like Polka. And and then this white actor, T.D. Rice, claimed he saw a old black man on a farm, like working with a horse and like imitated his singing yeah and put a black burnt cork on his face and birthed like the audiences called him back for 20 encores which i that's an important detail because that is like he hit something that was so like desperately craved in by these white audiences um and it's just it it's again this unspoken thing i i knew that there were were was a tradition of minstrel shows in the history of america i didn't realize it was like the most popular and the only type of popular music for a long time that was truly american and even from his act like that's where we even get jim crow that character right is from from uh td rice doing yes it was on a farm uh of somebody named crow and so even in in this article

um by wesley moore is like it even talks you know, the evolution of minstrelsy, right? That how that became it was about this like white gaze on blackness and this fascination with it. But it was at the time it was only comfortable to see a tongue in cheek of a white person impersonating. And that was like the act. It's like they've kept. Wow. Like they're doing it. And then even then it evolved to the point where even that, you know, there were black people doing minstrel shows, too. And that the the sort of mental jujitsu or putting yourself in the inception mode of I'm doing an impression of someone doing an impression of me, though, who I am. And I have to now reflect that back to this audience in a way that they're going to eat it up and he said again he uses that trouble like talk about being twice as good yeah absolutely like the the bizarre contradictory nature of that as an art form is like it's so cruel um but again it talks about this fascination with the again this because the call and response music that comes off of plantations um and you know slave songs on ships and things like that that's like that feeling even like soul music that's born out of

the struggle and pursuit of freedom that's why it has this drawing power because it's so authentic. And even if the song isn't about specifically freedom, it's like, but there, the expression is so different. It's not this sort of pre prescribed version of what music is coming into that, which is like,

there, there must be a harpsichord, a piano, a contrabassoon, and this kind of choral arrangement with major key tonality. All these other things like blues scales and all these other ways of expressing yourself are coming out of this imperfect way of expressing yourself. Because prior to that, it was very manicured and by the numbers and things like that. the numbers and things like that and yes you know even looking at like at its peak he points out like in the 2013 billboard awards like the people who are getting or grammys the people who are getting nominated are macklemore mighty cyrus uh you know robin thick who are precisely just doing

this thing of like their thing is like oh i love the music and of course there's no there's nothing wrong with liking a genre of music and even taking that as, you know, and performing it. But it, it underlines this thing of like, I see it. I like it.

I'm going to do it my way. And I'll also get a lot of success from it. Maybe I'll, you know, shift the focus back to honor where the traditions in which I am taking this from, or maybe I'll just blow up the charts but it has like this weird thing of america you know that's the thing with music we love black

culture you know we love black culture and the amount of like when i go on twitter the amount of digital blackface i see with people you know the the vernacular i've seen on first on text of twitter i'm like is that you or is that you wanting to be like a black person that you you like um it's like america wants to love the culture but can't really go all the way in loving the culture in offering protection offering freedom understanding the wrongs that have occurred in the past and then trying to move forward with that. It's almost like, come on, we like everything, but let's not get too hung up on that. You know, like when I think that's the sort of this moment that a lot of black people

are waiting for in this country of like, you love the culture you take from the culture. It gives you joy. It gives everybody, but you can't. When are we going to, when is that going to be acknowledged in the sense of lifting us up or providing the kind of support that has been asked for since time immemorial? But yeah, I mean, the music thing is,

is truly like it's, it's, it's the, it's really the American thing because they say the, all the American art forms they, they talk about were, you know, like jazz.

Okay. Right. You're welcome. I mean, hip hop. You're one of the most profoundly, uh, just in terms of like how it's stereotypically imagined yacht rock.

He opens up by being like yacht rock is, you know, mostly associated with white dudes with mullets in the eighties. And that is, it is straight up just appropriating like, you know, soul music and other, uh,

R and B music and other, uh, forms of black music that, uh, is just, but it's just put, put in dockers. Right.

Which is also kind of like what my fascination is with michael mcdonald right you know yeah because you know he sees like and it's like what the michael and to me it's funny because i'm like this dude is really he's going for it and it's but it's it's there's still he can't quite get it there you know because he's still michael mcdonald but you know what he's trying to do um but it's all yeah it's all just part and parcel of you know acknowledged or unacknowledged taking and picking and choosing uh that we do in in our culture but yeah and then he i mean he talks about how motown is like the peak of like the achievements of, you know, uh,

black artists, uh, you know, blending the, you know, sensibilities that they knew that white audiences would find appealing while also just like taking the music to a higher level than had ever been achieved.

But, uh, just in terms of the thematic kind of peak for, for the article, he talks about old town road being, you know, the banjo is this instrument that is, you know,

starts with slaves and is then appropriated by minstrel shows and in the South by white people. And then, you know, just, it's this very kind of meta reversing of a lot of the music history, like drawing a reference to it. And it's just so interesting that, I mean,

he kind of points out, it's kind of a silly song, but it like tapped into something so powerful. And so like on point for American music and like for the history of American music that it became the biggest number one hit of all time. Right. Exactly. And it's just like, because even as you talk about like the sort of aesthetic inception that's going on, right.

The banjo music, minstrel shows, things like that. But then he's sampling Trent Reznor, a white guy who that's the step banjo sample comes from Trent Reznor. Right. And then turns it into a hit that made the country music gatekeepers lose their damn minds.

Right. Because they're like suddenly now trying to protect this sanctity i think it was almost like they have every other white art form country and now what the heck but you know what that's that's what this is that's what it's it's it's so it's so weird of like america tries so hard to separate itself from each other without realizing like you know in the more tokeville type vision of it it's truly this melting pot yeah it's not like a seg i mean i know people it is segregated but like the culture of this is truly one of like all these other things and what level we can acknowledge that and embrace that is a completely separate conversation but yeah for that for then that Lil Nas X song to become you know the biggest song ever I think it speaks to like

this this energy that exists positive or negative but it's just very potent another name that I think a lot of people don't know is Claudette Colvin, who nine months before Rosa Parks was arrested in Montgomery, she was a 14-year-old who more organically, without really planning to, her and her friends were sitting in the back colored section of the bus and the bus was full a white person came back sat there and said you guys have to move back so that you're not sitting as close to the front as i am and she just was fed up didn't get up did the same thing that rosa parks is famous for and got arrested and then the civil rights movement sort of grew out of that she was then befriended by rosa parks who was an official head of the civil rights movement and uh organizations uh who were you know part of

the civil rights movement at that part at that point and they you know made the calculation that rosa parks would probably be more palatable to a white audience and it's just I feel like Claudette Colvin gets written out of history because she becomes a footnote because white people want to give themselves credit for uh the civil rights movement and like being like coming around to be right from the perspective of the dominant culture the hegemonic class and the the idea that they had to be tailored to that their kind of inbuilt white supremacy uh had to be like designed around by the civil rights movement i think is not uh is not something that uh the mainstream culture wants to acknowledge about it so right or that even that the people in the civil rights

movement were even having to do that thinking too of knowing well we know how white people are going to respond to this photo of claudette colvin versus rosa parks who's from a respectable family has a little more social cachet and is lighter that this will play better um again in the pursuit of liberation and yeah it just I think it's her story too is interesting because even like her mom they all kind of knew that they're like this ain't gonna be you honey like Rosa Parks is going to take this one. And, and we know like,

that's what should happen. But I think, or I mean, that's how they were sort of strategizing in terms of the movement. But yeah, I think it's also, it, yeah,

it has to be said that this was, it's activism takes all kinds of shapes and forms and the road to these like moments. There's so much thinking and it's still having to navigate sort of these systems of oppression even to like get the message out that you deserve dignity yeah i mean look how the white media or just the mainstream media treated trayvon martin after he's murdered right suddenly there's pictures of him you know that he posted to social media like with headlines of like he's no angel like that's the the idea that they you know they they knew they were absolutely right that Claudette Colvin would

have been uh you know just discriminated against if if she had been Rosa Parks figure. Can you imagine this in a kid's history book? We're like, well, hold on. When Rosa we know about Rosa Parks, but because of colorism in this country. Right. And internalized white supremacy that even the black activists knew themselves they were having to overcome to optically present a case safe enough for the consideration of like, that's how deep it has to get. But I think that's what's necessary too, because you can't just reduce these things to like, it was one person who sat down on the bus and that kicked off.

I was like, no, this is, it's a, it's an continued effort. Um, and a lot of, a lot of thought has to go into these things. And unfortunately, these kinds of calculations have to be made. Yeah. And then one of the more popular ways that people are seeing activism these days is through Colin Kaepernick, NBA players striking. Nick, NBA players striking. And I think there are a couple sports stories where Black history gets completely written out or written around. Horse racing was one that I just wasn't even aware of, and I've been to the Kentucky Derby, but African-American riders were basically the first Black superstars in American sports. They won 15 of the first 28 runnings of the Kentucky Derby.

Then what? And then that made them famous. And that was also around the same time that we were talking about with the Red Summer and uh the tulsa uh black wall street massacre uh they started getting pushed out like literally boxed out in in the sense that uh white riders would like push them into the rails would uh you know whip them well literally trying to like literally whip them uh with the whips they were supposed to be using to like get their horses to go faster. Yeah.

Cause it's like funny. Cause like when we talk a lot about these, about, about these stories, it's also a story of how we American or white America or the dominant American culture struggles to allow the success at a certain level. Like it gets to a point and then suddenly a circuit breaker has to be hit to kind of like level the playing field really quick.

Yeah. We saw that again, even talking about this with the concept of white lash or if you want to call it moral licensing, whatever, and having Donald Trump elected after Barack Obama, it got to a point. Yep. And let's kind of, let's, let's bring it down a couple notches again. And I think that's the thing that we also need to bring more awareness to as a country as well, is that there are these inbuilt biases that a lot of people have of like even seeing something like that and not thinking twice about how discriminatory or awful that is. It almost like, Oh, right. That's just part of the subconscious of this culture. Um, but by talking about these stories,

we, you know, hope to bring that kind of awareness to people because, you know, in talking about Kaepernick, we, we, we talked about how you and I both really didn't know about Craig Hodges

until we watched the last dance and we knew who Craig Hodges was, you know what I mean? Like when Craig Elo got that, took that shot in his face or Mark Price in the cabsges was. You know what I mean? Absolutely. When Craig Elo took that shot in his face or Mark Price in the Cavs, Craig Hodges was right there. He was right there. In the series against the Detroit Pistons when Michael Jordan got rocked

and he's like, I got to start lifting weights if I'm going to play against Bill Van Buren, these maniacs. Craig Hodges scored more points than Michael Jordan in that game where they went out. And we forget that he suddenly vanished because in 1991, after the Rodney King beating, it was the Bulls versus the Lakers and the game one of the championship. Michael Jordan and Magic Johnson, two of the most visible black athletes at that time, to boycott the game, to bring awareness to the just rampant racism that exists in not just America, but policing specifically through the context of this Rodney King beating.

And how that just, all it took was that for him to stick up and say, I think we should do this because this is a real issue that when the powers that be within the league caught wind of it, it's like, okay, so now you're going to start getting traded. Now you might not come back from, you know, you were on the injured reserve. Maybe your playing minutes are going to go down, even though you're an all-star and you're shooting the lights out on paper. And it's, it's hard to watch those moments because Craig Hodges, he grew up in a house of activists and he was raised with the knowledge and awareness of American history and systemic oppression and racism. So when he's seeing it, he couldn't help but to speak out.

One, just the mere idea of mentioning some kind of act of solidarity to tell people that we're not accepting this as black men was just way too much. And it's hard to blame Magic or Michael, too, because that's a weird position already being as a black man is to have this power. But you are also beholden to the white people that are paying you. So it's this hand that feeds relationship that occurs. But with Craig Hodgesges he was very vocal he he wore a dashiki to the white house um and wrote an eight-page letter talking about all because he had been raised to write letters to your politicians if you have something to say to your leaders and he wrote an eight-page letter and all he got laughed at and that began the end of his career because he was speaking up. Yeah. And the same thing.

Yeah. Mahmoud Abdul-Raouf, who was one of the most lights out shooters at a time when the NBA didn't value that as much as they should have. But he dropped 51 on John Stockton, one of the great defensive guards in the history of the NBA. Just a lights out shooter. College teammate of Shaquille O'Neal. Yeah, at LSU. Yeah, at LSU. And he started just conscientiously objecting by sitting during the national anthem. Legitimately, that's what Colin Kaepernick did first before somebody somebody was consulting with was like kneeling would actually be just like a better look but

right sitting to just represent that like there are i think he specifically said like there are uh countries around the world where that is a symbol of oppression and violence and uh you know so he was sitting people weren't really paying attention to that for a few games and then once the league noticed uh at first you know rob thorne who was like the disciplinarian for the nba he talked to him and rob thorne was like i mean there's no like rule that says you can't do it so and and then David Stern noticed and suddenly he was suspended indefinitely. Right. And then it became a compromise thing of like, well, don't sit.

Do something else. He's like, what if I pray or whatever? And like it was like this whole back and forth. And again, he was just saying that he was just observing the reality of America and commenting on it out loud. But yeah, for him, it's funny, too, because he had a bit of a different path than Craig. Craig Hodges did because he only sort of got into thinking critically about America when he was handed a biography of Malcolm X from his coach at LSU. And that's when he actually converted to Islam. biography of malcolm x from his coach at lsu and that's when he actually converted to islam and he realized he's like oh my god i'm actually seeing all of these forms of systemic oppression

playing out in real time in front of my eyes left and right in in the 90s or at the time he was looking at it so he had no choice but to speak up because he was aware of it all and that's what's really interesting too is like when you see the NBA trying to get behind the players over the summer and during like the bubble postseason and things like that and a lot of the Black Lives Matter messaging that was going on there's still a lot that the league can do to

I would say make people like Craig Hodges and Mahmoud Abdourou whole. Absolutely. Because the countless dollars that were missed from contracts. They were frozen out. Yeah, 100%. They were both, yeah, especially Mahmoud Abdulroof. There's literally no argument.

That dude was lights out. And they just basically screwed with him, threw him off his rhythm, would hold him out of games, would give him less playing time. There's pressure on his coach to play him less. And, you know, at the very least, they should be given a leadership position within the league to help with these issues. Like just listening to both of them be interviewed around the black lives matter movement uh of last summer and george floyd's murder they are just so compelling to listen to uh and speak so

clearly and so lucidly about this because they've been thinking it and doing it for decades now like they need to be uh you know part part of this uh conversation because for too long it feels like it's been a statement crafted by michael jordan's management to you know and i don't know like the 100 million dollars is a great start which is what michael jordan uh wrote a check for but it's still i don't know, like people who are actually about doing the work and making the uncomfortable, you know, having the uncomfortable conversations. Right.

Because they, you know, because even further back, you know, Craig Hodges and Mahmoud Abdour, they're inspired by Tommy Smith and John Carlos in the 68 Olympics, obviously, like of seeing like, right, these are people who are representing a country that they have a very tumultuous relationship with. Yeah. But it's about a vision that it can be better. That's why it's not just I renounce everything. It's like, yeah, I'm here.

But in this moment where you're reflecting on the nation part, I want it to be known that we can be doing better. In fact, we must be doing better because we are not fulfilling the full potential of what the country can be. And for these two athletes, merely observing the reality at that time was just considered so provocative. And I think that's where we have to always keep our eyes on how we treat people who are speaking out against things and how we're looking at them and also how the media or just any powers that be are trying to frame what is being said as being like, what is it? It's a hot

take to ask for equality. That's incendiary. That's not. And I think that's where we have to open our minds a bit to understand that like we're operating at like two percent of our capacity in this country and we can be doing a lot more. And so, yeah, I think with that is being able to to look back at what our history is, good and bad, and understanding that there is even the most inspiring people, especially in like Black History Month. especially in like Black History Month, it's all about too, it's not just observing and honoring these contributions, but also honoring it in the sense that in your lived life after this, more than just February,

you can understand that a lot of these things that have given us moments of joy and things to gather around, these are all have been out of the pursuit of liberation that is yet to be fully realized. And I think that's where we all owe it to each other to begin to move in that direction. And that's why we got to keep talking about where we're coming from

because then we don't know where we're going to go. And I mean, we could give examples all day, but I think that's a really good way to leave it. That is going to do it for this special episode of The Daily Zeitgeist. We will be back at the regular time with episodes and episodes of Trending. And we will talk to you all then. Bye. Bye.

Bye. And we'll talk to you all then. Bye. Bye. Kay hasn't heard from her sister in seven years. I have a proposal for you. Come up here and document my project. All you need to do is record everything like you always do.

What was that? That was live audio of a woman's nightmare. Can Kay trust her sister or is history repeating itself? There's nothing dangerous about what you're doing. They're just dreams. Dream Sequence is a new horror thriller from Blumhouse Television, iHeartRadio, and Realm. Listen to Dream Sequence on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hi, everybody. It's Katie Couric. Have you heard about my newsletter called Body and Soul? It has everything you need to know about health and wellness, from skincare and serums to meditation and brain health.

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