The Daily Zeitgeist - Switching One Pollution For Another? 05.07.24

Episode Date: May 7, 2024

In episode 1671, Jack and Miles are joined by writer and journalist, Nicolas Stavros Niarchos, to discuss… Cobalt Mining, The Invisible Cost of EVs, Climate Change and more! LISTEN: Hot Water by King Gizzard & The Lizard WizardSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Justin, how was the weekend for you? How caught in the Drake-Kendrick shit did you get into? I got annoyed after the third song. Like, too much homework. I love the discourse, but I also like, as much as I love Kendrick, I'm like, enough is enough. Yeah. as much as i love kendrick i'm like enough is enough i don't know yeah it seems like i can never totally forgive kendrick for making me think this much about drake yeah yeah like the read read deep like multi-level theoretical analysis of you know bars about drake yeah i looked up the

same as everyone else but by the third song i was like oh boy uh and then and then i heard someone say who's in uh kendrick's camp he's like he's not even close to fucking done yet and i was like oh god yeah bad news for all of us i know that's what i'm saying like that's why this one i was like i'm like there's only so much combing of genius i can do before i'm like you know what i'm just gonna go with whatever i literally understand in the moment he says it maybe people go like oh that's a bar i'm like i'm pretty sure that that was a bar like you gotta really think about that one i'm like i don't know bro like i'm just going for what i can understand that one's a reference to something a guy who was like an uncle to Drake said at a family reunion in the late 60s. 6-16 is the

time of death. Nicole Brown Simpson, she was announced dead by the LAPD. I looked at him like, that's not even true. That's what we're saying, man. I'm Kerry Champion, and this is Season 4 of Naked Sports. Up first, I explore the making

of a rivalry. Kaitlyn Clark versus Angel Reese. Every great player needs a foil. I know I'll go down in history. People are talking about women's basketball just because of one single game. Clark and Reese have changed the way we consume women's sports. Listen to the making of a rivalry. Kaitlyn Clark versus Angel Reese on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Presented by Elf Beauty, founding partner of iHeart Women's Sports.

I'm Jess Casavetto, executive producer of the hit Netflix documentary series, Dancing for the Devil, the 7M TikTok cult. And I'm Clea Gray, former member of 7M Films and Shekinah Church. And we're the host of the new podcast, Forgive Me For I Have Followed. Together, we'll be diving even deeper into the unbelievable stories behind 7M Films and Shekinah Church. Listen to Forgive Me For I Have Followed on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, I'm Gianna Pradenti. And I'm Jemay Jackson-Gadsden.

We're the hosts of Let's Talk Offline from LinkedIn News and iHeart Podcasts. There's a lot to figure out when you're just starting your career. That's where we come in. Think of us as your work besties you can turn to for advice. And if we don't know the answer, we bring in people who do, like negotiation expert Maury Tahiripour. If you start thinking about negotiations as just a conversation, then I think it sort of eases us a little bit. Listen to Let's Talk Offline on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hello, the internet, and welcome to season 337,

episode two of Dead Nightly Zeitgeist, a production of iHeartRadio. This is a podcast where we take a deep dive into America's shared consciousness. It's Tuesday, May 7th, 2024. We've never had to prepare a guest more for how stupid

we are than on today's episode. It happens. It happens. It happens. But hey, May 7th, though, National Packaging Design Day, National Roast Leg of Lamb Day. National Barrier Awareness Day, National Foster Care Day, National Tourism Day, National Paste Design Day. National Roast Leg of Lamb Day. Okay. National Barrier Awareness Day. National Foster Care Day. National Tourism Day.

National Paste Up Day. And I don't know what that is. It looks like someone is using an exacto knife to chop up headlines and pastes. It looks almost like a ransom note. But anyway. Oh, it's just remembering the time before desktop publishing and computerized digital imaging, when many publications were composed and completed by hand. So shout out to The Hand.

Feels like a lot of people just, you know, look at package designers. A lot of people who don't get a lot of credit. Don't. Sneaking in a day. Exactly. More power to them. You know, Star Wars. Everybody's a little tired of international days.

Let's take some time to honor the people who used to glue headlines together. Yeah. It's like in my mind, I'm like, they didn't do that.

Nah. And I'm like, there's no other conceivable way for that to have happened. Nah. Probably not. Right. Anyways,

my name's Jack O'Brien, a.k.a. Andale. Andale. They're using AI. AI. Uh-oh uh-oh the music shitty that's right that is courtesy of nobody on the discord no body in reference to the fact that i've yet to hear ai music see ai art that could exist outside of the context of, hey man, you believe a computer made this? Yeah, right. You see this?

It's not like I wept when I saw that AI-generated image of Michael J. Fox, but in the Lord of the Rings franchise. I asked myself so many questions and I didn't realize I could be touched like that. No, not happening. Lean into the computer of it all, I'd say. There's that one Cher song where her voice has like that computer warble.

Do you believe? That's fun. Maybe lean into the computer instead of trying to convince us that it's like not a computer. Right, right. Anyways, I'm thrilled to be joined as always by my co-host, Mr. Miles Gray! Yes, it's Miles Gray, a.k.a. Gray Not Like Us.

Gray Not Like Us. Shout out to the Kendrick Lamar and Drake beef that had absolutely melted down my phone and all my attention span. And that was just sitting in my brain all weekend. So an a.k.a. from me to me. Every time a new one drops, your battery is just like 80 now it's at 40 now it's my phone is off yeah people are sending like screen caps like no but this part and i'm like

i don't have time to i don't if i don't if i don't understand what he's saying immediately i don't have the time anymore to go on genius to figure out what he said and what he meant the privilege of uh nobody giving a shit what you think about a rat beef that I love. I only got a few texts every time a new one dropped. Mostly on text chains with you, with people asking you

what you thought. Anyways, Miles, we are thrilled to be joined by a magazine and newspaper journalist who has written for magazines like The Nation and a small regional publication that we've mentioned a couple times on the show called The New Yorker. He's been contributing to The New Yorker since he was 25 and is currently working on a book about the global cobalt industry. Please welcome Nicholas Stavros-Nyarkos! Nicholas! What's up, man?

Thanks very much for having me. It's very kind. Yeah. Thank you for doing the show. Oh, there's more where that came from. There's more where that came from. Yeah. Wait till we shout out cobalt!

Yeah, so we're big fans of Cobalt here. As mentioned before we started recording, I'm a big Musk guy. I just think, you know, anytime you can have a real world Iron Man just inventing our way out of problems. Let's just see where he's going with this thing. Let's give him three, four decades without any oversight to just see see where he's going that's kind of it's kind of my pitch but you know or not or not i don't know i mean to be to wait to be fair to elon elon musk though i mean in the end of the day very very early on for very different reasons that were not to do with you know some of the human rights abuses that we're going to get into did actually switch over from cobalt let's not say they have other you know cobalt mind

in this kind of artisanal way so right i don't want to completely trash tesla okay but they did foresee this oh good right oh yeah i did i did see that out yeah yeah well that's why we should put them in charge of everything. No, but anyways, I also have some cryptos that I want to pitch you. But before we get into cobalt mining, just generally the overall conversation around, you know, we're moving off of fossil fuels. We're moving towards electric vehicles is like that's one of the big solutions that I feel like has taken hold in the popular consciousness. And there are some problems with these battery-powered cars that you've done some in-depth reporting on. So we're going to dig into that. But before we

dig into it, we do like to get to know our guests a little bit better and ask you what is something from your search history that is revealing about who you are what you're up to yeah i guess i've look i've been covering the campus protest quite a bit for the nation and uh i i've been i've been searching all kinds of things about the NYU making this 2020 deal about kettling protesters. I think for me, what's really important is that people are allowed to exercise their rights to free speech. And I'm not one of those free speech absolutists who says that you can say everything that you want all the time. But frankly, I've been at a lot of these student protests and a lot of the things that the kids are saying are not hate speech.

Right. So I find, yeah, I don't know, not to bring it down a notch, but... No, we're going to bring it up talking about cobalt mining in a second. Yeah. Yeah. We're going to keep it fun and light and talk about cobalt mining. Keep it fun and light we're gonna keep it fun and light and talk about cobalt mining light yeah but no but yeah no i've been googling the campus protests like who's funding those things am i right like it's got to be soros right it's got to be soros well it's so

weird yeah that was in political politico and you're like what what are you saying what the talking about yeah it's well i think there's there is this there is this uh a lot of more reckless reporting on it is sort of trying to mischaracterize these protests of of being anything other than like outraged students over the state of things in gaza and it's funny because as i like i remember i've like talked to my mom like she's watching cnn or something but she's a little bit more critical she's like are they is it really because of like tiktok i'm like no she's watching CNN or something, but she's a little bit more critical. She's like, is it really because of like TikTok? I'm like, no. She's like, yeah, that's what I thought.

She's like, but why do they keep saying that? I'm like, because they're trying to completely obscure what the motivations are of people that people couldn't just, you know, cast their gaze upon what is happening there and say, I think that's horrific. Right. And nothing more. But yeah, that seems to be where we're at right now. You know, I don't have TikTok.

So I tried to download it. But I thought you were a journalist. How are you reporting on any? What's your sources, man? Yeah. You're not using TikTok. I tried to use 4chan Reddit. Okay, good to know.

B's a capital J journalist. This guy's serious. I don't know. As somebody who you have written features for the New Yorker, you worked in the fact-checking department of the New Yorker.

You delivered a TED Talk on the importance of fact-checking. How are you viewing what we're seeing in the mainstream media right now with just a lot of, yeah, just kind of some of the tropes that we're talking about where it seems like there's a desire to kind of discredit and diminish what's happening with student protesters? Look, again, I think that there's a very real debate that you can have with student protesters like i mean as a journalist you have to remain objective sure but the way it's being portrayed i mean i saw this guy who was whose instagram i think or facebook live or something is was was the viral patriot and uh you know he'd come over to look at jihadist University, Columbia University. And he was sitting there and there were a bunch of students chanting.

Maybe you don't agree with what they're chanting, but the fact is they're standing on the sidewalk. They're not saying antisemitic things or very, very political slogans. It's disclosed, divest, all these things. Again, like, you can disagree with that. You can debate that. You can even say that the students aren't debating it and that there's little room for debate in the student movements. But to simply just send in heavily armed police is just, to me, completely crazy and not really what the U.S. is all about. Right. Well, starting to be.

Just now, yeah, yeah. With many caveats. Yeah, yeah, right. Not supposedly. Exactly. Yeah, it all depends on what you're protesting, right? Because I feel like there's that stark imagery between, like, a police escort for white supremacists exercising their freedom, First Amendment rights, and then being kettled, beaten, pepper sprayed when you're out here trying to, you know, again, protest against something as simple as being like, I'm trying to stop indiscriminate killing of people. That's, that's really what's bringing me out here today it's nuts you see you i mean you see it when you go to these protesters there is one side and another and

one side is being contained by the police and uh and the other side is kind of wandering around you know on the edges of the edges of the protest yeah screaming you stand no chance old lady in one case in ucla just like Cobra Kai. And throwing fireworks? Yeah, throwing fireworks. What, they're not allowed to celebrate? Come on. I know it's wild, but yeah, just shows again,

like how we have such a skewed version of who is able to exercise what right at what time in this country. And I think, I don't know, it feels like more people are just seeing that slowly, but I'm not sure. I mean, hopefully it reaches some kind of tipping point where the administration does something. That is TBD at the moment. Feels like they're closer to doing something more in line with the status quo than doing something to protect the people who are currently being kettled. But based on the Biden kind of address. I think that in the end of the day, as reporters, as journalists, you have to be very, very clear that you are just trying to tell the truth. I mean, there's opinion writing. But again, I think it's important as a journalist to look at the fundaments of what a society claims to stand for and what's actually happening in practice. And I do think that people should be able to debate and discuss freely. And I think that

we've really lost that as a society in a way. this has kind of this is once again sort of shown to shown to the world how how lacking we are in some of those kind of qualities from back in the day well maybe some there was i i don't know maybe i look back to some sort of maybe i'm sort of looking back to some dream dream time when people were able to debate. I think in retrospect, people tend to view the protests as something that, like the protests of the 70s or the 60s, as something that people that were more popular at the time than they actually were. And they were met with police violence also. And that I think written about in the same way that

these protests are being written about in a lot of cases. Yeah, there's a good piece in Foreign Affairs on this, actually, that they dug up from the archive that I was reading earlier today. What is something you think is underrated? I think that the novel

Spring Torrents is very underrated by Turgenev. For me, it was this kind of like wow moment. You know, one of those books like I want to be a writer. It's this depiction of kind of like obsessive love and kind of and also just like what love means between different generations and how that can be kind of exploited and not and how people can kind of ruin themselves through love um and i thought that was incredibly powerful yeah i love ivan sergeyevich turgenyev was a russian novelist short story writer poet no that's not at full name miles we remember we said to cut off after it though that's okay yeah his name that's uh yes the wikipedia page yeah i'm i was not familiar with,

I'm not familiar with his work at all, but I'm also not, you know, I think my, I like my limits are like Tolstoy and like Dostoevsky when it comes to Russian novelists. And it's sort of basic. Same period. You have to think of,

you know, Dostoevsky and Turgenev basically around the same time. I saw a photo of him. He, he passed away when he was 64. The, God, living, living life back then was hard this guy looks like father time and this is like 64 years old and i'm like god we're we're uh there's a photograph oh yeah look at him yeah yeah there he is weathered weathered there's pictures of like the old uh explorers who are like in their 20s and 30s

and they look like they're like in their 60s yeah they what just shows you what a little bit of like the things we've learned through science and stress and diet and things like that have done for the faces because like even look at like you know like the kids at the turn of like the 19th they were going to the 20th century and they're like like is that a is that like a three foot eight four like 50 year old right and it just life is just was fucking harder then and still kind of hard in many other parts of the world yeah thinking of the mountain climbers of like the 1800s like that you look at pictures they didn't know what spf was yeah no they did That's true. And to bring the tone down again, which I don't want to be doing all the time,

but during the course of working on cobalt mining, I met a lot of these kids who were mining some of the metals that go into your batteries, and they looked so small, but also so old. They just lived such difficult lives, and they hadn't eaten properly, essentially. And they looked so small, but also so old. You know, they just lived such difficult lives and hadn't eaten properly, essentially. So it was this kind of this really physical thing that you could see. And there was one 15-year-old kid who I interviewed.

And, yeah, I mean, he looked, he had the sort of frame of a 10-year-old, basically. Really, really upsetting. Yeah, one of the really upsetting details from your New Yorker piece is that they give the kids drugs to suppress their hunger so that they can just kind of work through the day without having to be fed, which, yeah, pretty horrifying.

Hey, what's something you think is overrated? Bring it up with an overrated, Nicholas, please. Okay, well, the overrated, I guess I was just thinking about, in terms of dichotomies, there's another novel by Turgenev, Fathers and Sons, and it's about this kind of son that comes back to the family estate with this kind of Dostoevsky radical figure in tow. And in a way, he's kind of a model for some of these Dostoevsky radical figure in tow. And in a way, he's kind of a model

for some of these Dostoevsky nihilist characters. And I think he's called Yevgeny, but I'm not 100% sure. Because it was a long time ago that I read it. And I just, I don't know, I didn't, I found, I found the characters in that book kind of annoying in a way. And they just kind of sort of prattled on anyway. Spring Torrance. Very good.

First love. Very good. Yeah. Fathers and sons. Out of here for the birds. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

You watch anything on Netflix, man. Yeah. You know, you know what? You ever seen that? I've been watching Tokyo vice. Okay.

Oh yeah. On HBO. Yeah. I think it's on hbo actually yeah sorry yeah no no no i mean i it's i i've only caught the first couple episodes of the second season i read the book when it came out and i was really the book was really eye-opening because as someone who's half japanese just like the idea of an american person because it's so it's like my mom's a journalist and it was written in Japan and stuff like that. It's, it's such a hard life and it's so rigid the way, like the tests you have to take to even get in there. Like the idea of a Westerner being like, yeah, I'm going to learn

Japanese to that level, like blows my mind. But yeah, at the, yeah, it's a show to be pretty popular. Yeah. So that's the, that story of tokyo vice is a westerner trying to figure out life in tokyo on the on the vice squad well it's him writing about like what the vice squad is doing so like you learn all these different things about tokyo through his interactions with police and then with this one is sort of centering around this yakuza guy who in the books telling was like having like renal issues with his kidneys and was going to the united states like a kind of a huge kind of he got operated at ucla or something right yeah it was yeah yeah it's a really good book yeah because i i read it when i was in japan a couple

of years ago and it was um it was also very eye-opening and i remember just thinking where are the yakas i mean don't really have a itai? It's not really something that you have an experience of, but I guess friends of mine who work there say that it's kind of on the periphery of quite a lot of things, especially people who work in the restaurant industry. Yeah, and like nightlife. Yeah, it's definitely a presence. Yeah. All right. Let's take a quick break and we'll come back and we will get into cobalt mining and other forms of mining that kind of make a lot of the wonder technologies of our modern life

possible and kind of some dark things that are up the supply chain behind your phone. We'll be right back. I'm Jess Casavetto, executive producer of the hit Netflix documentary series, Dancing for the Devil, the 7M TikTok cult. And I'm Clea Gray, former member of 7M Films and Shekinah Church. And we're the host of the new podcast, Forgive Me For I Have Followed. Together, we'll be diving even deeper into the unbelievable stories behind 7M Films and LA-based Shekinah Church, an alleged cult that has impacted members for over two decades. Jessica and I will

delve into the hidden truths between high control groups and interview dancers, church members, and others whose lives and careers have been impacted, just like mine. Through powerful, in-depth interviews with former members and new, chilling firsthand accounts, the series will illuminate untold and extremely necessary perspectives. Forgive Me For I Have Followed will be more than an exploration. It's a vital revelation aimed at ensuring these types of abuses never happen again. Listen to Forgive Me For I Have Followed on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, I'm Gianna Pradente. And I'm Jemay Jackson-Gadsden. We're the hosts of Let's Talk

Offline, a new podcast from LinkedIn News and iHeart Podcasts. When you're just starting out in your career, you have a lot of questions,, how do I speak up when I'm feeling overwhelmed? Or, can I negotiate a higher salary if this is my first real job? Girl, yes! Each week, we answer your unfiltered work questions. Think of us as your work besties you can turn to for advice. And if we don't know the answer, we bring in experts who do. Like resume specialist Morgan Santer.

The only difference between the person who doesn't get the job and the person who gets the job is usually who applies. Yeah, I think a lot about that quote. What is it like you miss 100% of the shots you never take? Yeah, rejection is scary, but it's better than you rejecting yourself. Together, we'll share what it really takes to thrive in the early years of your career without sacrificing your sanity or sleep. Listen to Let's Talk Offline on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Keri Champion, and this is season four of Naked Sports, where we live at the intersection of sports and culture. Up first, I explore the making of a rivalry, Kaitlyn Clark versus Angel Reese.

I know I'll go down in history. People are talking about women's basketball just because of one single game. Every great player needs a foil. I ain't really near them. Why is that? Just come here and play basketball every single day, and that's what I focus on. From college to the pros, Clark and Reese have changed the way we consume women's sports. Angel Reese is a joy to watch. She is unapologetically black. I love her. What exactly ignited this fire?

Why has it been so good for the game? And can the fanfare surrounding these two supernovas be sustained? This game is only going to get better because the talent is getting better. This new season will cover all things sports and culture. Listen to Naked Sports on the Black Effect Podcast Network, iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. The Black Effect Podcast Network is sponsored by Diet Coke. And we're back. We're back we're back and yeah so you talk a lot about the kind of cognitive dissonance that

happens where people buy an electric vehicle and think they're buying something that is kind of redeeming almost like it's not just that it's like the less bad option it's like every time i drive this like i'm kind of saving the world a little bit is like there's even this like well-known stat that like when you drive an electric car for 30 000 miles that like that gets you to carbon neutrality like it's like so like the more you drive an electric vehicle the more you're saving the future. You're absolving yourself of your carbon sins. Yes.

But you have to get to 30,000 miles or else it's all for nothing. That's right. That's a Yale study, I think, that came out a couple of years ago. That said the 30,000? That gave us that? That said the 30,000 miles. Yeah. There you go.

They said that 30,000 miles. Yeah, there you go. But in a lot of ways, it feels like your reporting reveals that we're replacing one form of pollution that I think people are pretty familiar with, with global climate change and global heating. I guess we learned climate change was actually something that was concocted by the Republican Party years ago because it's like nice and value neutral. Yeah, it's changing. Yeah, global heating. People kind of know about that one at this point. And we're placing that with another form of pollution and human rights abuses that affect poorer parts of the world

and are easier for people to ignore maybe like you mentioned in an interview last year like an indonesian mine that is actually you know it's behind some of the technology we use all the time and don't think of as necessarily polluting but it's this indonesian mine that's actually like the mine is coal powered and yeah the ref the refinery and the mine and you know it's it's it's nickel which is like there are different types of nickel but it's a type of nickel called laterite nickel it exists in a type of soil called laterite soil yeah and um that refining that nickel is incredibly energy intensive. So if you were to do it with solar power, wind power, or something like that,

perhaps you could create green nickel. Right. I'm very suspicious of everybody calling things green or whatever it is. Yeah. Yeah. But yeah, in the end of the day, all of that nickel is made through burning huge amounts of coal. And nobody really looks at that.

I mean, people talk about scope one, scope two emissions. So scope one emissions are the emissions that are produced. Scope two emissions are, again, the tailpipe. And then scope three emissions are everything that went into the production, shipping, et cetera, of that vehicle. And I think if we look at scope three, we realize that there are all these kind of unseen externalities. Now, they also exist for non-electric cars as well. So I'm not saying that electric cars are net worse for the planet or anything like that.

What I'm saying is more that we haven't really thought about the way that these supply chains have been constructed and the people that they affect. And we don't think about the really really complex issues around sovereignty resource sovereignty and how people are relating to the minerals in their ground so one of the really interesting things sorry sorry to jump right in, but that's okay. No, yeah, no, that's great. I've found basically at most of the steps along the way, some kind of autonomous or separatist movement or some kind of group of people who are saying, listen, this is our land,

these are our resources, and some central government far away is coming to exploit it. Now, that's partly because these materials are found in fairly remote areas. Congo has this kind of geological fluke that it sits on 70% of the world's known cobalt reserves. But it's also partly because people don't want to mine directly under cities. partly because people don't want to mine directly under cities. I mean, if suddenly, you know, another 70%, whatever, another 40% of the world's cobalt resources were found under New York City, I mean, people wouldn't want to mine it. So, I mean, I think there's also something happening there.

But I think that, you know, with this kind of rush for minerals and these this kind of like valorization of and like becoming critical of these metals, which is something that I am documenting in this in this book that I'm writing. It has also kind of put into place some of these really complicated, complicated questions around sovereignty and who owns what. Right. Yeah. So I think when I first heard that, okay, and these things that people view as a solution are actually polluting, my initial instinct was exhaustion and being like, instinct was exhaustion and being like so there's like no no it's no win we're just we're fucked no no matter which way we go and i think there are two ways to respond to that and i i don't think that's right right but i think i'm just trying to like get my mind around what people's response is going to be to this information. And I think one way people might respond is just like, you know, the Marxist critique of this consumption engine will not stop until the world is empty and like just like a spent husk. And the problem is not in the

specifics. It's in the DNA of the system. And like, you know, just the software is corrupt, like one way or another. But then you like hear and specifically like in your reporting, like how badly and obliviously the people involved are acting. There's a detail in the story about Apple catching some heat for some of their supply chain practices, exploiting underage workers, I think, going away from that specific supplier for a moment and then going back once the heat died down. So it presents, I guess, this second solution of a version of the system where companies and the actors within the system are actually held to account and like forced to work within the rule of law. And I don't need your answer on this necessarily like up top, but just want to lay out like kind of the big picture question in people's minds as we've been on this show talking about, you know, the global climate crisis and how we move forward and what the future looks like. And, you know, we did an episode on ministry for the future and all the different

solutions kind of put out in that book. But I think before I dug in a little bit and read your reporting, I think it seemed a little more bleak to me because it was like, well, there's no win here, right? There's no scenario here. And then to read that it's basically like nobody's trying, like to, you know, that like the companies are just acting without impunity. And it's trying like to you know that that like the companies are just acting without impunity and it's this like version of capitalism that's completely unregulated like maybe gave me a little sliver of hope that like there is something that can be done on this front yeah Yeah, I mean, look, I've got this five-volume work on how to restructure the world

that I'm currently writing. That's a joke. I was going to say, yeah, when's that manifesto? I was like, it's giving manifesto vibes, Nicholas. No, no, no. Look, this thing with Apple

saying that they don't use hand-mined cobalts and then they went back and started buying off of HUAYU again. I mean, that's a really important point. It's a point that they will argue. And since I've written the piece, it's been true and not true. So it's quite interesting. And I don't know why that is. That's one of those sort of questions that's hung there.

So if any of your listeners do know why, please get in touch. Know why what's true? That Apple uses... To know why companies will make pledges to say, we're not going to use hand-mined cobalt, which is cobalt that comes from these very rudimentary mines where there are a lot of human rights issues yeah and then they sort of renege on that on their promises but but but

you're totally right jack i mean i think it's it's an issue that kind of frustrates me because we know how to mine this stuff effectively now a lot of people will talk to me, somebody talked to me the other day about deep sea mining and say, oh, well, it's the solution because you're sucking these things off the bottom of the sea. And now there are some environmental problems with that because people say that you're killing forms of wildlife that we know very little about and so on and so forth. But at the same time, there's just an economic argument. There's this kind of, you know, how come we can't actually get a mine on the surface

to operate correctly? How come we're in a situation in which these mines, which are, you know, only a hundred or a couple of hundred meters meters deep are so difficult to work out the financing for and so forth. And people in the mining industry have told me that. So I think there should be more focus on mining correctly, mining ecologically, and making sure that a significant portion of the revenues from mining go back to the people in the areas where that mining happens and you know improving the life the lives of those people it's not that complicated but it is complicated in places in which corruption has unfortunately become very very entrenched and it's also complicated in which it's in industries where people are always striving to be you know ten dollars cheaper

than the competition because they think that it makes a huge impact on somebody's likelihood of buying an iphone versus a samsung or whatever it is and i was at a product unveil by stelantis for one of their new evs and actually citroroën, which is a Stellantis company. And they were talking about the EV being 23,000 euros, and it's much more likely that people would buy it at 23,000 rather than 24,000 and so on and so forth, because European consumers are very price conscious. But I think that the question is, wouldn't consumers be happier, especially if they're buying EVs, especially the type of people who want to buy EVs, who are presumably concerned with what's happening in the environment, wouldn't they be also happier to know that the resources in their battery have

not come from situations in which there's conflict or human rights abuses? I will note very quickly that that citroen uses something called a lithium-ion phosphate battery, which some people call it like iron-powered batteries or something like that. I was reading an article today which called them that. But they also contain phosphate, which is a mineral which is linked to a conflict in the Western Sahara as well. So, you know, there are all kinds of supply chain issues. is key and also just kind of a commitment to improving the lives of the people around those minds is also key yeah the question is where that comes from does it come from regulation does it come from the companies themselves does it come from pledges there are plenty of like ngos that do try and enforce this stuff but um i think they often get either sort of pushed out on the outside

or they get kind of sort of brought in by industry in order to provide a kind of a reason for them being there. And they say, listen, we're doing all this wonderful stuff through these alliances and NGOs. But actually, you know, those alliances allow for other kinds of abuses, for example. Right. It feels like kind of similar to sort of like when there's conflict diamonds where people would be like, and we can proclaim these are 100% conflict-free diamonds, but a lot of experts are like, it's a very difficult thing to be able

to like guarantee people a lot of the time. And it sort of becomes this way to, uh, you know, calm people's fears around like a problematic product or, or, or material or whatever, while also continuing to be able to just sort of continue with like business as usual. So I completely understand that like part of this too, and you've said yourself, like a lot of the reason why this issue is important to you to report is because there needs to be more scrutiny to be able to kind of create these sort of safeguards around how to make these supply chains a bit more equitable. But is that, you know, like, like, as we like, look at everything, it's like, where does that will come

from? Because I've read that some people are like, well, why don't they nationalize all of the mines? But then there's a whole issue of probably companies that have had their operations taken away, how to pay them for their loss and things like that and everything it feels like it's so many complicated like that doesn't seem to be like a clean solution so is in that sense is there even anything that seems like an efficient way or is there like what's like the most important thing to consider first not saying that there's a silver bullet but like what's one dimension of this issue around corruption and these terrible like child labor practices that at the very least to begin sort of begin to put people's attention towards that in a way that feels like it can maybe render some kind

of change look i think it's about it's about seeing people in other parts of the world as people i think that's the key uh okay sorry i'm american so yes so that's uh i do have trouble with that at times yes and understanding that they have needs and that they have wants and desires and that they feel that they should benefit from the land that they live on. Also recognizing the really, really complicated history in these parts of the world is key. But the nationalization argument to me doesn't really hold much water because if a country like the DRC were to have full control of its government without these issues of corruption and so on, maybe there would be a case for nationalization. But the fact is that there've been just so many, so many examples of people abusing the system there. And it's made

worse by the fact that there are tons of international interests, not just US interests. I mean, there are actually very few US interests that I mean, they, US interests start buying sort of later in the supply chain. And that's not right, they're buying like enriched cobalt, like at the end of the series, like American, yeah, customers come into it. Exactly. But, you know, I mean, it's really an issue for the Chinese to think about as well, because they're, they're the mining companies and they have a lot of refineries, they do a lot of the trading, so on. So I think it's an issue that is incredibly knotty and complex and there is no solution to it. It's just something that on a mine by mine basis needs to be worked on diligently.

And I think that there are just so many examples of mines these days that do provide for the local population. And I think that in the US, for example, there's a robust series of regulations that people say, oh, it's very difficult to build a mine in the US. But the mines that do operate, operate very well. So, you know, they don't have major, well, we hope they don't have major environmental issues and they don't have major issues around labor rights and so on. But I think that, you know, you've got to both regulate and put pressure on business to improve their practices because at a certain point, everybody's going to lose out and it's going to lead to all kinds of issues. again, the renewal of these separatist movements, which are gaining in popularity and power in different parts of Africa or in Indonesia, the kind of these sort of Chinese company towns where Indonesian workers don't, you know, don't really have the right to, you know, the unions are treated incredibly poorly and there are very few labor rights.

So I think that there's this kind of sense that if you're buying these minerals, you have to kind of see it through from the bottom to the top, but also be putting pressure on companies that are buying and doing the refining. Right, because they have the most gravitational pull when it comes to these sort of operations. Yeah. And I mean, for the companies, isn't it more profitable for things to remain chaotic and like abusive on the ground because that allows them or the companies or, you know, China, whoever it is, who is the buying side of this or the extraction side of this like it just it feels like that force for regulation is going to need to come from outside of the people who are doing their best to get these resources as cheaply as possible right which seems to be yeah i don't think i don't actually't actually think it's going to obviously require much more

investment and probably more time spent thinking about these things but actually I think that there's plenty of evidence that once you sort of put in good governance and people feel like they're being listened to and

interacted with, you know, you get rid of a whole bunch of other problems which do, I think in the long run, balance out some of the negative effects. And again, things can only get so bad. I think that you have so many people down in Katanga or the ex-Katanga province, which is south of the DRC, or south of Congo, who are just so dissatisfied that the sense that one gets when one's down there is that something at some point is going to break. And at best, there will be mass disruptions, which can never be good for a company doing business down there.

Right. Right. Right. Yeah. That's the other, because I mean, I think, you know, backing up, you were talking about just the legacy of Congo, right? And I think for people who aren't aware, like, you know, it was a huge supplier of slaves to Brazil and, you know, then it became like rubber and, you know, which is another, you know,

we needed those for tigers. Copper, diamonds. Yeah. And yeah, and now we're at cobalt and, you know, which is another, you know, we needed those for tigers. Copper, diamond. Yeah. And yeah, and now we're at cobalt. And, you know, for, and I feel like maybe I should have said, we should have said this earlier, but, you know, the big reason why cobalt has become so popular is because it's such a, such a massively important material in creating lithium ion batteries and makes it sort of, you can't get the same energy density without cobalt.

So we're kind of stuck in this place where we're relying on this material that is extracted problematically, but also it's in literally everything around you that, you know, for the most part that has any kind of battery, you know, and when you for people who haven't seen what the conditions are, you know, and some of these mines, you know, especially with child labor, you're looking at kids just from the moment they are able to walk and carry something are working barefoot, not using sometimes like you're saying, we're using their hands, not using tools. And the amount of suffering that's just why I mean, it's just sort of, it's just mind boggling to think of all of these things that are so essential or seen as so essential, has this massive human cost behind it. And like to what Jack was saying at the beginning, the thing that we're all, you know, seems to be the most popular sentiment when talking about like, how do we, you know, how are we going to combat the carbon emissions? Like, we'll just swap out gas burning cars for EVs. And that makes sense for people who are running these industries, because it's just essentially saying like,

hey, buy this new thing. This is the answer answer you give a shit about the earth this is the big thing that you can do to help buy this your way out of the problem yeah buy this thing and it comes at a time when many analysts and experts alike are saying just switching engine types or combustion types is not the like the end-all be-. We also need to plan our cities better. We need to make public transportation more effective. We need to create infrastructure for things like bicycles so people don't necessarily have to rely on vehicles. That's one sort of column of this. Then there's the energy generation part. We talked in the past about how the fact that the United States electrical grid is one of the reasons why we can't get a lot of cleaner sources of energy sort of distributed or transmitted to more people.

But then, and there are municipalities that are beginning to engage with these ideas, but it still feels like the main theme around the world is still EVs and efficiency just sort of isn't as profitable than creating a new product for everyone to buy. So we're just caught like in this thing, like to Jack's point, even like it feels like we're sort of stuck where if, if, okay, that if we're burning dinosaur farts to move our cars around, then the other side of it is the human suffering on all of these technological goods that are supposedly going to help us out of it. And I don't know, am I, does this, that, was that overly cynical? But it does feel like just kind of where sort of the discourse is taking us is like, what's the new thing to buy rather than like a more holistic response to this that isn't just sort of emphasizing like,

well, how many EVs can I sell the United States government kind of thing? Well, I mean, I think the electric car is a response to smog. It's a response, I think, you know, there's this guy Bob Aronson in the US who's this kind of forgotten pioneer of the electric car in the 60s and 70s. And he was a newspaper boy and he used to sort of cycle around, I think Los Angeles. I'm not 100% sure. I need to double check. But he used to cycle around the city that he lived in in California and get sort of stuck behind vans and trucks and things like that and be sort of

with smoke. And obviously, California, the Clean Air Act really was pushed by a lot of activists from Los Angeles and California, who in the 60s and 70s had it with the levels of toxic smog. So a lot of the impetus for at least early electric cars, and also electric cars in China, because you have to remember that China is really the country that is pushing this and has pushed electric vehicles to where they are today as much as any Elon Musk or whoever else, Rivian or whatever in the US. And these are issues of localized pollution. So if you think about, if you're going back to the Indonesian example that we had, these big smokestacks in these kind of pristine environments you're thinking about displacing pollution from a city

to a rural area and oftentimes a rural area that is heavily heavily under underdeveloped so i think that there's this kind of interesting kind of reasoning behind the electric car. Now, I do think that it is something that would be beneficial if it was done correctly. I'm sure it would be something that would be beneficial in the climate fight. But as you say, Miles, there are all these other issues that need to be sorted out. I mean, you know, transport, there are issues of power generation and construction and so on, which are not going to be solved with lithium-ion batteries alone. And so I think that needs to be taken into account. And yeah, I think that people who see it as a silver bullet are unfortunately misplaced. Yeah. Let's take a quick break.

We'll come back. We'll talk about just a little bit of what cobalt mining looks like on the ground and kind of what your overall goal is for once people know about this, what are you hoping the future looks like? So we'll be right back. I'm Jess Casavetto, executive producer of the hit Netflix documentary series, Dancing for the Devil, the 7M TikTok cult. And I'm Clea Gray, former member of 7M Films and Shekinah Church. And we're the host of the new podcast, Forgive Me For I Have Followed.

Together, we'll be diving even deeper into the unbelievable stories behind 7M Films and LA-based Shekinah Church, an alleged cult that has impacted members for over two decades. Jessica and I will delve into the hidden truths between high-control groups and interview dancers, church members, and others whose lives and careers have been impacted, just like mine. Through powerful, in-depth interviews with former members and new, chilling firsthand accounts, the series will illuminate untold and extremely necessary perspectives. Forgive Me For I Have Followed will be more than an exploration. It's a vital revelation aimed at ensuring these types of abuses never happen again. Listen to Forgive Me For I Have Followed on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Hey, I'm Gianna Pradente. And I'm Jemay Jackson-Gadsden. We're the hosts of Let's Talk Offline, a new podcast from LinkedIn News and iHeart Podcasts. When you're just starting out in your career, you have a lot of questions. Like, how do I speak up when I'm feeling overwhelmed? Or, can I negotiate a higher salary if this is my first real job? Girl, yes. Each week, we answer your unfiltered work questions.

Think of us as your work besties you can turn to for advice. And if we don't know the answer, we bring in experts who do, like resume specialist Morgan Saner. The only difference between the person who doesn't get the job and the person who gets the job is usually who applies. Yeah, I think a lot about that quote. What is it like you miss 100% of the shots you never take? Yeah, rejection is scary, but it's better than you rejecting yourself. Together, we'll share what it really takes to

thrive in the early years of your career. Without sacrificing your sanity or sleep. Listen to Let's Talk Offline on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Keri Champion, and this is Season 4 of Naked Sports, where we live at the intersection of sports and culture. Up first, I explore the making of a rivalry, Kaitlyn Clark versus Angel Reese. I know I'll go down in history. People are talking about women's basketball just because of one single game. Every great player needs a foil.

I ain't really near them. Why is that? I just come here to play basketball every single day, and that's what I focus on. From college to the pros, Clark and Reese have changed the way we consume women's sports. Angel Reese is a joy to watch. She is unapologetically black. I love her. What exactly ignited this fire? Why has it been so good for the game?

And can the fanfare surrounding these two supernovas be sustained? This game is only going to get better because the talent is getting better. This new season will cover all things sports and culture. Listen to Naked Sports on the Black Effect Podcast Network, iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. The Black Effect Podcast Network is sponsored by Diet Coke. and we're back and the world of cobalt mining is kind of a strange one that does not look like anything that i had really conceived of in my mind you open your new yorker story with the story of a guy who goes to dig an outhouse and finds cobalt in his backyard. And then he goes into his house and starts digging this underground local mine into the floors of his house and under his neighbor's house to kind of conceal that he's struck gold, struck cobalt.

But it's just this more kind of one-off, unregulated, kind of reminds you of the old-timey, like, gold rush, where you use the word artisanal a couple times, where it's like just, you know, one person finds a chunk of this and then kind of starts digging and then there are these one-off people who are unaffiliated mine workers and it just i guess it makes sense to me why this current system would appeal to people who want to exploit cheap labor because it's really the least unionized like a workforce can be it's really just these like one-off actors in a lot of cases but can you just talk about what it looks like on the ground what cobalt mining looks like on the ground yeah i mean there are various different forms of cobalt mining. And when we say cobalt mining, we have to remember that cobalt is usually a byproduct of the Belgians to take copper out of the ground

in Congo. And some existed since about 400 AD as copper mines because copper was a very important trading good for the people in that area. People found copper from that area all over Africa because it was used to make these crosses, which were used as currency. So in a way, what we're talking about specifically, there are two types of mines. About 80% to 90% of cobalt mining is done in big industrial mines these days. Those industrial mines look like mines basically in anywhere else in the world. There has been a report recently by a UK-based NGO called Raid Rights Accountability in International Development. I think that's what it stands for. And they have talked about polluting practices that some of these big industrial miners have engaged in. It hasn't been studied particularly well, but basically you have to think about these industrial

miners as large companies which come in, some of them even like London Stock Exchange listed companies, and some of them are the biggest companies in China and so on. And so these are large companies that London Stock Exchange, in some cases, and listed companies. There's also another company called China Molly, CMOC. And those companies generally adhere to international standards. Again, there are a lot of big Chinese companies. So again, we know a little bit less about those companies. I was actually denied a visit to one of those mines, Chinese-owned mines. But I have been to the Chinese-owned mine north of a city

called Lubavashi, and it's a sort of modern feeling work environment. And then you have on the other end of the spectrum, the artisanal mines, which are, as you say, people digging into their backyards, they're essentially neighborhoods with big holes in the ground. And people will be digging and mining at all hours of the day, apart from sometimes miners don't mine on Thursdays for some reason, and they have a sort of superstition about it. And you'll see all kinds of people going down in very unregulated ways, people who don't even have shoes going down to mine. And that's really where the kind of worst human rights abuses seem to congregate. Not to say that there aren't human rights abuses in other parts of the supply chain. And then there's this huge sort of gradation between the two mines.

You'll have sort of semi-artisanal mines. And the reason I use artisanal mine is it's a term that's become adopted by industry to describe these small-scale miners. It is not the best term, but it is the generally accepted term and it is the term as well used in congo they also use the word diggers which is closer um which i use quite a lot in the piece yeah right yeah it's artisanal definitely takes a bit of edge like for someone who's like oh it's an artisanal mine and it's like no it's actually unregulated and yeah there's not a lot of you know structural support for the actual minds that are being dug

and it's literally very very scary yeah yeah just in terms of like we've noticed a like overall the mainstream media will occasionally like pick up these stories that are overall like counter profitability but eventually we'll get the story of how oh like dei or like environmental investing ideals are now like a bad word on wall street or you know they've they've become less popular like over. And it feels like it's a little bit harder for stories that go against the grain of profitability and consumerism to get picked up. So I'm just curious, from your perspective as somebody who has been reporting on this for a while, how have you been happy with the the pickup from the mainstream media have there been specific challenges and sort of what what do you ultimately hope are the effects of your reporting on on this story yeah i mean one of the people that i interviewed quite early on

for the new yorker was rick ross and uh i think that's how you have to be as a as a journalist every day i'm hustling yeah because it's like uh you know you have to just you have to be um constantly pitching and going after editors and so on it is an immensely time consuming thing on this specific topic i was really lucky to have the interest of amazing editors at The New Yorker who were very supportive and also got picked up as a book idea. So that was great. And I've had quite a lot of interest specifically on this what you call a counter profitability story. Again, I don't think it's necessarily a counter profitability story. I think it's just, I mean, if you think that cowboy capitalism

is the only way to make a killing in these industries, then yes. But actually, so many of the people at mining companies that i've spoken to and so many of the people who work at electric vehicle farms and battery firms and so on are actually concerned about these issues and they are trying to slowly work to make them better i think that like the question is, do the very, very large corporations care about these things? And that's a very good question. And sometimes, yes, and sometimes it doesn't seem to be of particular concern. But again, you have to look at it within a geopolitical context as well. People are vying for control of these resources between the US and China and Europe as well.

Don't forget Europe. Yeah. Because it seems like even through the Cold War, this place has always just sort of unfortunately been at the center of this kind of geopolitical tug of war where in a way like i think just in western media there's just this thing where the exploitation especially on the african continent is just seen as a norm yeah and with this kind of like historical momentum of what's been happening in the drc just over centuries now it's just kind of it's like this one spot where like even the Pope is like,

this is a, I think he called it a forgotten genocide. And it was like, like suddenly people were like, oh, what's happening there? That, yeah, I think on some level, just the awareness around it is obviously like the first step. But there's part of me that's sort of just cynical about what that enthusiasm is

to create something a little more equitable because as we've seen that those sort of values don't seem to intersect especially with this region of the world and especially when it comes to things like you know technological supremacy that countries are vying for via these materials so it's like it feels very multi-leveled and yeah like it is it feels like something that the biden administration only recently was like oh that's a ah that maybe we need to actually focus on this as well because for it seemed like this has been something that's been emphasized at least in china and other places and to a much larger extent and now like the americans are like oh oh, are we falling

behind here? Then now this is another place for us to figure out how we can vie for some kind of supremacy or advantage. And yeah, it's at the cost of people. So it's like, yeah, there's this consumer level, there's a geopolitical level, there's an ecological level. And it's just so multifaceted that, yeah, I think it's just, it's, it's a story that I think most people, we really do have to keep in mind because they're, whether or not we like it, we are, we are intersecting with just sort of this practice, obviously not directly, but something for us to keep in mind as we think about like, what are the, the outcomes that we're looking for and what makes the most sense? Because certainly right now, the way things are going, it's not the ideal.

Well, Nicholas Niarchos, thank you so much for joining us on The Daily Zeitgeist. Where can people find you, follow you, all that good stuff? You can follow me on Twitter at PerninAgile, which is P-E-R-N-E-I-N-A-G-Y-R-E. And on Instagram at a postcard from the volcano, which is as it sounds. Those are two poetic references. Sorry. I created that. And I of course got them, but I'm not going to take the time to explain them to anybody. Yeah. You'll just have to look them up yourself,

guys. Come on. You should get those. And then you can always find me on the Trump train, you know, cool. Yeah. Nice.

Nice. Yeah. What are you a Patriot? What was it? A Patriot live stream uncensored. Was that the, that was your phone number? Viral,

viral. Yeah. Viral. Yeah. Find me at viral Patriot. Yeah. Hell yeah, brother. Love to hear it. Uh, stream uncensored was that uh that was your viral viral yeah viral yeah finally add viral patriot yeah hell yeah brother love to hear it uh great work on that on that front amazing uh is there a work of media that you've been enjoying yeah actually there's a really good piece by james pogue that was published in granta magazine recently about uh mercenaries in Central African Republic. That's really interesting from the geostrategic angle in Africa. And also, I've been watching with

absolute horror at what is happening in Sudan. In Darfur, there is an ethnic cleansing and a potential genocidal attack about to happen. And a very good friend of mine at Human Rights Watch has been producing some very good reports with his team there. And I have been following that sort of quite carefully because, of course, there are many depressing situations in the world. Yeah all right well thanks again for joining us not to end on a low low note sorry sorry guys yeah no i mean it's yeah but these are part of i mean that's the thing is to be aware in this world and like its current state is to have to intersect with these things but i think at least for me and i think for many of the

listeners it helps to know because you can you, you can try and make decisions in the best way you can when those opportunities arise. So, yeah. Otherwise, yeah, pretty much everything could be a fucking bummer for sure. You can find me at Miles of Great on Twitter and Instagram and Jack and I on our basketball podcast, which is definitely not as much of a bummer. Well, depending on which NBA team you support. Miles and Jack on Madboosties. Definitely not as much of a bummer. Well, depending on which NBA team you support.

Miles and Jack got mad boosties. And you can also find me talking about frivolous reality television on 420 Day Fiance. Talking about 90 Day Fiance. A tweet I like. Just so much of this Kendrick Lamar and Drake beef. There's a picture of Steve Karnacki at the board on election night. If you watch CNBC or NBC News coverage, he's always at a board. And it just says it's him gesturing to like this map and says drake has no path to 270 um and it's just a stupid

meme um and i'm hopefully i can put these memes to bed after this yeah i mean yeah mostly most of my likes on twitter are just about that feud. Andrew Marzoni tweeted, a literary feud involving two men named Kendrick Lamar Duckworth and Aubrey Drake Graham is giving 19th century. Chase Mitchell wrote, mostly jealous of how well Kendrick can write on a deadline. So, yeah. Rohit Takadambi tweeted,

Kendrick should do Netanyahu next. So, yeah. Anyways, you took a Dom B tweeted. Kendrick should do net and Yahoo next. So yeah. Anyways, uh, you can find me on Twitter at Jack underscore O'Brien. You can find us on Twitter at daily zeitgeist. We're at the daily zeitgeist on Instagram. We have a Facebook fan page and our website daily zeitgeist.com where we post our episodes and our footnotes. We're going to link off to the information that we talked about in today's episode,

as well as a song that we think you might enjoy miles what song do you think people might enjoy uh let's just vibe out on some psychedelic rock from down under uh this is like you know it's an old king gizzard and the lizard wizard track but still a banger nonetheless it's called hot water uh if you i feel like for a lot of people who may listen to likeCRW kind of morning comes eclectic radio, you probably heard this song there. But anyway, Hot Water, King Gizzard, and the Lizard Wizard. All right. We will link off to that in the footnotes.

The Daily Zeitgeist is a production of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. That's going to do it for us this morning. Back this afternoon to tell you what's trending. And we'll talk to you all then. Bye. Bye.

I'm Keri Champion, and this is Season 4 of Naked Sports. Up first, I explore the making of a rivalry. Kaitlyn Clark versus Angel Reese. Every great player needs a foil. I know I'll go down in history. People are talking about women's basketball just because of one single game. Clark and Reese have changed the way we consume women's sports. Listen to the making of a rivalry, Caitlin Clark versus Angel Reese,

on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Presented by Elf Beauty, founding partner of iHeart Women's Sports. Hey, I'm Gianna Pradenti. And I'm Jermaine Jackson-Gadsden. We're the hosts of Let's Talk Offline from LinkedIn News and iHeart Podcasts. There's a lot to figure out when you're just starting your career. That's where we come in. Think of us as your work besties you can turn to for advice. And if we don't know the answer, we bring in people who do, like negotiation expert

Maury Tahiripour. If you start thinking about negotiations as just a conversation, then I think it sort of eases us a little bit. Listen to Let's Talk Offline on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Jess Costavetto, executive producer of the hit Netflix documentary series, Dancing for the Devil, the 7M TikTok cult. And I'm Clea Gray, former member of 7M Films and Shekinah Church. And we're the host of the new podcast, Forgive Me For I Have Followed. Together, we'll be diving even deeper into the unbelievable stories

behind 7M Films and Shekinah Church. Listen to Forgive Me For I Have Followed on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.