The Daily Zeitgeist - The Continuing Evolution Of White Nationalism 11.07.23

Episode Date: November 7, 2023

In episode 1577, Jack and Miles are joined by the Senior Researcher of U.S. Hate & Extremist Movements at the Institute for Strategic Dialogue, Jared Holt, to discuss… GAZA and Opportunism, Islamophobia, White Nationalism 3.0, Active Clubs, Second Trump Presidency, 2024 Election, Latest D’Souza Film and more! LISTEN: Glamorous Damage by GUMSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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I'm Keri Champion, and this is season four of Naked Sports. Up first, I explore the making of a rivalry. Kaitlyn Clark versus Angel Reese.

Every great player needs a foil. I know I'll go down in history. People are talking about women's basketball just because of one single game. Clark and Reese have

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and I'm Jermaine Jackson-Gadsden. We're the hosts of Let's Talk Offline from LinkedIn News and iHeart Podcasts. There's a lot to figure out when you're just starting your career. That's where we come in. Think of us as your work besties you can turn to for advice. And if we don't know the answer, we bring in people who do, like negotiation expert Maury Tahiripour. If you start thinking about negotiations as just a conversation,

then I think it sort of eases us a little bit. Listen to Let's Talk Offline on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. Hello, the internet and welcome to season 312 episode 2 of Dirt Nightly Psych guys! Yeah! My production of

iHeartRadio. Miles is currently doing the little head tilt that dogs do when they're puzzled by your behavior. Yeah, well some just look like we said in the trending episode daylight savings it comes for us all in some way right yeah anyways hey miles this is a podcast where we take a deep dive into america's shared consciousness do we still want to do that yeah i guess that's kind of the premise of the show i guess yeah yeah well this one's specifically american and yeah yeah yeah we're

going oh yeah we're gonna have to open our eyes to some things today it's tuesday november 7th 2023 oh yeah seven two three this is kind of a bummer day it's international merlot day national canine lymphoma awareness day national bittersweet chocolate with almonds day like that's it that doesn't that's we don't need that international day of medical physics i'm i'm sure that hopefully that's not the pseudoscience but yeah love it all love it all oh a national retinol day for all you skincare people out there i practice medical physics every day, bro. Doesn't that sound like some fucking Aaron Rodgers-ass shit to say? Yeah, I'm immunized. I'm immunized.

I partook in some medical physics, and things are good on this end. But luckily for us, I'm pretty sure it's all about physics, how physics play into patient care. There you go. So, yeah. And from my understanding, physics is a pretty nailed on science. It's not like people are like, nah, not the way I fuck with it. When you drop a rock from a high height on a patient, it hurts them. Exactly.

Thank you, Dr. That's physics. You're welcome. Well, my name is Jack O'Brien, a.k.a. Making my way around clowns, walking fast, faces passing, I'm sure bound. Na. And I pissed them. And I peed them. And now I wonder if I could go back on that ride. Do you think I could convince my wife? my wife because you know i do a thousand trials if i could just keep my pants dry uh that is courtesy of resic on the discord uh thank you for you know keeping this

embarrassing incident from my past top of mind and I'm thrilled to be joined, as always, by my co-host, Mr. Miles Gray. It's Miles Gray, aka I am. Doll bones. Mouse bones. Bat bones. And go to the chorus. Yeah, it is really guano. Okay, shout out Nicole Adrian for that whole rendition.

Doll parts. Didn't do the whole thing because I couldn't. Man, hitting all the Courtney love. I don't smoke cigarettes anymore, so I can't quite get that rasp out. But shout out to you, Nicole Adrian. Plus, I just nailed mine so hard that it would have been hard. Yeah, yeah. That was like, I forget.

It's like, I remember. No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. You know, the musicality involved in that. I did the equivalent of pulling up like during a sprint because I knew I was getting beat and I didn't want to have that L. So I just went, ah, my hammy, my hammy, my hammy. We saw the smoke trail behind my vocals that opened this episode. Miles, we're thrilled to be joined in our third seat by today's special expert guest he is the senior researcher of u.s hate and extremist movements at the

institute for strategic dialogue uh to quote samuel l jackson halt onto your butts because it's the return of haltamania welcome back Welcome back to the show, Jared Holt! Jared! Hey, thanks for having me, guys. I kind of feel like the janitor. When you go see a concert and all the lights come up, and after those musical renditions, it's... Yeah, yeah.

All right, guys. Hey. Hey. Sweeping up around here. Don't have to go home, but you really shouldn't stay here. You guys left a lot of little plastic bags on the ground here. Another one of those shows, I guess. How are you doing, Jared?

Hey, I'm doing alright. Where are you coming to us from? Chicago. Moved here a couple years ago, and it's getting a little cold here, but love this city. Yeah. The old 2-1-3? 3-1-2. 3-1-2. but love this city yeah the old two one three three one two three one two damn it yeah that's so close hey it's okay man it's okay we covered this yesterday yeah literally so jared what's

like because you know when we first started the show we had you on when you're working at like right wing watch i remember yeah yeah and now like there's, like, a whole lane to be somebody who is so well-versed in, like, extremist semiotics and monitoring extremist movements that, like, I just feel like you're always moving up. And I'm like, this is, this is fantastic. I love the glow up, but it's always on the back of having to have your head in some of the dark shit all the time. But you're doing well otherwise, despite this career path. I just want to make sure because the work you do is fantastic. The work that your colleagues do is fantastic. I could never imagine being this engaged with it, even at the level we do.

But shit, the level that you guys do is completely different. Yeah, yeah, I'm doing well. I appreciate all that. It's really interesting because I started doing this kind of stuff full time something like eight years ago. And I felt like when I was doing it then, I was like the crazy guy on the town square being like, here ye, here ye, please pay attention to this shit. now it's just like i mean i guess i'm glad it's recognized but it is really unfortunate that you know in the grand scheme of things that it's necessary yeah yeah but so long as i can help you know that's i it's like a calling of mine i guess and i i don't know there's it's really dark but then there's like a little bit of gallows humor that keeps me coming back sure yeah would you say like just kind of having taking a step back would january 6th be the thing that like made sort of the mainstream

world take right-wing extremism more seriously was it was it happening before that was it charlottesville what what was the kind of overall pattern? I mean, I think Charlottesville was sort of the beginning of it. And then in 2019, there were a few really, really horrible extremist mass killings. That's when you had like the Pittsburgh synagogue shooting. Right. Christchurch was that year. And then I think for, you know, the normies of the world that still didn't get it somehow. Right. It's kind of hard to think of a more powerful image than, you know, QAnon aunts and car dealership uncles radicalized by the Internet, you know. Right. Smashing through the halls of Congress. I think that was pretty hard to, you know, look away from or write off as like oh well it's just some weird fringe you know yeah and you're like and it's right there in your face that's my fucking uncle fuck i remember how recently it was like such a fringe idea like even after right-wing extremism was responsible for the Oklahoma City bombing, it was just like there was nobody looking into it. Even after Trump got elected, like there was still like just people weren't taking it seriously as a threat. It's because we have such, you know, white supremacist reflexes.

They're right. Them? No, no. They're nice kids. They have khakis on. OK, and they're they're not they don't look that imposing now this group of people with these signs over here i don't know what's going on it may have to do with their complexion i don't know but yeah like i feel like that always has that's always benefited especially like right-wing extremism is their whiteness or just not whether

not being taken seriously or this idea of like oh it's nothing it's just don't worry about that over there kind of shit well i mean it still does right i mean i think about like even in the field i work in which is weird to call it a field now right it's every once in a while you'll catch you know after some mass shooting or or big event in extremism land a bunch of people trying to offer up all these like different competing theories as to why it happened, whether it's, you know, like economic hardship or whatever. And it's like, right. We don't, you know, as a culture, we don't cut this slack or like try to, you know, do

armchair psychology over other stuff, you know, and it's always interesting to me, like where that gets applied because that's one of those i think kind of subtle ways that you know living in a culture defined by white supremacy like comes out even in the field that you know is hoping to try to counteract some of that right right right exactly but how did they grow up though these skinhead kids i was like well it doesn't matter. Hold on. Yeah, exactly.

Let's get to the point here. The point is he's a skinhead now. And that, you know. Ah, you hate to see it, don't you? You hate to see it. I feel like that's like what people would say like in newsrooms. Like, ah, you hate to see it. Just these nice kids going afoul.

But yeah. Got a lot to talk about today. Yeah, we got a lot to talk about today yeah we got a lot to talk about we're gonna get more into this and the rest of the show as it applies to this present moment and the near future yeah but before we get to that uh we do of course jared like to ask our guests what is something from your search history that's revealing about who you are or what you're up to so the revealing one is just me typing in random celebrity names because i don't follow celebrity news at all so anytime there's like some name i don't recognize that people are talking about i just assume it's some celebrity

and i have to look them up and then my reaction is usually either like oh i think i've seen that guy before or like oh no i don't know who that is okay oh wow do you hit us with your latest like who's the biggest person you've had to look up recently uh it's like margo some roger robbie yeah yeah i didn't know who that was jared i know i love this recently like my man is so wild you're like joey gibson i'll tell you when he was fucking born the dude fucking started patriot prayer wait who the fuck is barbie i know i know damn yeah yeah yeah i know i know no no i'm not even saying but just it's just wild though like how much wow in a way that's also it's a blessing to the mbu sir yeah well i i just like

don't watch a lot of movies and i always feel like you know i'm missing out on this big like cultural thing but i i don't know what it maybe the internet has just like destroyed my attention span or i get like or paralysis trying to pick something to watch. But I just don't I'm not caught up with movies. So like these big names, I just don't recognize. Sure. It could be forgiven because you're out here looking at the iterations of third wave fucking white nationalism. Right. Like, yeah, yeah. I'm seeing that coming in from a long distance here right now. But what is what is paw patrol right is that wow and so do you feel what like how because i think there's probably a lot of people out there who

are like i envy you i wish i could be unplugged from all the bullshit maybe not everybody but like do you feel lost in a lot of conversations what like not knowing who margo at least robbie is yeah yeah so i i like to go to like trivia with my friends like every every couple weeks and whenever the questions come around and it's like uh who was the actor of the year from 2018 who starred and then they'll just like they'll just say like the movie right i'm just like i don't know what right right right what movie is that and they're like oh it's transformers dude yeah yeah no i remember yeah actor of the year actor of the year from transformers i just hope isn't there like ever a moment though you can stunt with your like broad sweeping knowledge of like historical facts and like context where like yeah yeah being like what did Ross say as his excuse for going outside of the relationship when he was cheating quote unquote it's like I don't know what that you know the answer that Jerry no we were we were on a break uh-huh okay um just you guys don't need

to dunk on me just let me talk more about it you know apologies that's amazing though no but where does it but does it pay i mean because i dude i know you have such an infinite wealth of like just actual functional knowledge especially when looking at the current hellscape that is like American culture and extremism. But like, tell me that you at least flip it up on switch it up on me like y'all need to come to one of my trivia nights. Oh, so I do well with the historical stuff, but where I think maybe a lot of people watch movies and stuff. I'm really into music. So. Oh, hell yeah. OK okay so i can do music trivia pretty good okay all right all right good good good so i wanted to make sure you have some kind of like creative thing you could look at other than trying to be like what does this peppy the frog mean like yeah which artist let me count

the fingers yeah no i that's great like i honestly much of my brain is just regurgitating, like, pop culture quotes and bullshit. And, like, just at random. Like, you know. We're worried. Someone's like, let's take a quick break. Well, I'm like, you know, my wife and I are running. And she's like, let's take a quick break. And I'm like, we were on a break.

Why? Why? Oh, wow. Did that? Wow. Yeah. That doesn't help. That resonated with me. running and she's like let's take a quick break and i'm like we were on a break why why did that what's wow yeah that doesn't help that resonated with me but jared is like okay and yeah yeah maybe shut up it's my voice you should listen to her yeah what's uh what's something you think is overrated jared ai like what what people call like ai it's going to be the future it's like a lot of the same guys that hawked you know the like bored apes and the nfts and stuff they're all about ai now and um like a lot of that technology is impressive but if you like it still just screws up all the time i think of all the pictures where

it's like oh we used ai to see what what kind of skateboard george washington would have ridden and george washington has like five legs yeah it's like yeah i don't know about that or dude i knew he'd skate alien workshop dude exactly yeah exactly or like news outlets that are like oh we're gonna use ai and it's gonna like generate the shitty clickbait or whatever that actually pays the bills on our blog. And then the article is just like, did you know headphones can help you listen to things from your phone? And it's like, yeah, thanks, man. What's this article about?

Yeah. Right. what's this article about yeah right and you know it's it's just i the technology is impressive but i think the doomsayers and the people that are like this is going to change the world maybe it will but we're not like it's it's not there yet you know i think the biggest risk is this technology getting forced through before it's ready by the people who want to get rich on it you know and uh you know but generally speaking i think a lot of it is like razzle dazzle without a whole lot of stuff to like back it up it's not like ai is actually conscious if we're anywhere close to anything like that you know yeah the razzle dazzle sucks like when somebody does razzle dazzle in sports

it's like man that was a cool like little magic trick they did the razzle-dazzle in sports, it's like, man, that was a cool little magic trick they did. The razzle-dazzle in AI fucking sucks. It's like, yo, the rope is dripped out. Yeah, yeah. That's the AI's one good piece of work, I will say. They're like, yo, that puffer that he was in? Oh, fucking ew. Did you wait?

Speaking of Bored Ape, did you see how they had a Bored Ape convention in Hong Kong? And all the people got their eyes burned by UV lights. Yeah. Yeah. And they put out some statement this morning. That's like, uh, we're aware of eye related incidents. It's incredible. People were like tweeting. I don't know. Did you see this Jack? People went to the dance party and people being like, this is not how I would want to be blinded. And I did not know what they were saying, so I thought they were just like, I don't know. I was like, man, I got to invest in this

so I can get all the inside jokes that these people are telling. Yeah, everyone's like, yeah, you actually have what's called welder's eyes. Like from not wearing a fucking mask, fam. Is that real? Yeah, it's like, yo, this shit is called welder's eye dude can you believe can you believe they only paid a hundred grand to get welder's eye yeah i know wow what a deal it's just it does like i don't take that much joy in it because they're just like no they're getting dunked on while losing so much money and just

tripling down to get welder's eye yeah it's like yeah because you can't feel bad like you've been you got got like multiple times now it's like you got got by buying these board apes and then you go to the thing that's supposed to be with you and the crew and then you're getting welder's eye at the fucking dance oh yeah dude the best reaction i saw to it is this writer that i really enjoy molly white she like pull you know posted a picture of the like avatars of the the apes with like laser beam eyes and she was like you know i totally misinterpreted this i thought the laser was coming out i didn't know you were getting freelance lasik you know yeah ambient lasik happening all around us the most yeah imprecise

lasik you could have it's really just called photokeratosis or keratitis or something like that welder's eye oh that sucks what is there's also like i've seen ads for things that are like i stand with like crypto and various things like that like trying to turn the failure of that product into like a movement where people are i i feel like i saw that right after the the attacks on like october 7th oh really yeah i don't know it felt like you were co-opting that language for some really fucking sad way to be like i stand with crypto okay what anyways i stand with the bag holders it sucks for y'all honestly truly me i stand with jp morgan chase you know there you go there you go that's a beautiful fine that's what i stand

with they've been around guys they've been around so long, they were handling slave money, okay? That's right. So I think they know what they're doing if they've lasted this long. Jared, what's something you think is underrated? I'll say Chicago is a city. I feel like it is underloved, but to me, it's like it has a lot of the stuff that new york promises but you can afford to live there if you you know have a normal job and there's also just kind of like the i don't know i i mean maybe it's how i grew up or whatever but i just really vibe with the midwest spirit of like just being kind

of down to earth and like there's just not a lot of bullshit flies here. And people are pretty straight up and generally nice, passive-aggressive, like any good Midwestern town. But I feel like people can kind of see how it is here, and the city has a lot to offer. I moved here a couple years ago with my wife and love it. So I, I got to rep Chicago. I've lived here just long enough to be able to, you know, call it home. So yeah, there you go. Got to rep it. Yeah. I love Chicago. My, my dad's family moved

to LA from Chicago. So like we, I have, I have those roots there, too. But I really the last time I went was like in 2020, like like in like right before the pandemic started. And I remember having like the same thing where I was like, man, I've been like I would go as a kid, but I hadn't gone as like an adult really who could like go out and like, you know, like like, oh, I'm gonna go check out this restaurant or do other things and i was really like really realizing like man i was fucking sleeping so hard on this shit because i was like i came back being like yeah so we should just move to chicago also i can wear everyone's like you're gonna hate the winter i'm like i want my legs to fucking snap off from the wind okay and i know people are like yeah wait till it happens but allow me that ignorance so i may experience it and then come back and say yeah yeah that was a little too much but we went there like during it wasn't it wasn't the summer like summer chicago make you fall in love immediately yeah we went there oh yeah i forget when it was i think we were there in january yeah it was not i was and then i went back for all when the nba all-star game was that was february so you've seen what chicago has to offer in terms of making your legs snap off. I guess I was like on some like like episode two of Lord of the Rings.

Like I was like, is this all you can conjure, Saruman? Like because it wasn't that bad. But at the end of the day, maybe that was a blessing. All right. Let's take a quick break and we'll come back and get into it. We'll be right back. and Shekinah Church. And we're the host of the new podcast, Forgive Me For I Have Followed. Together, we'll be diving even deeper into the unbelievable stories behind 7M Films and LA-based Shekinah Church,

an alleged cult that has impacted members for over two decades. Jessica and I will delve into the hidden truths between high control groups and interview dancers, church members, and others whose lives and careers have been impacted, just like mine. Through powerful, in-depth interviews with former members and new, chilling firsthand accounts, the series will illuminate untold and extremely necessary perspectives.

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challenge podcast. So join us every week as we break down episodes of the Challenge 40 Battle of the Eras. Listen to MTV's official challenge podcast on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. And we're back. Oh, we're back.

Oh, we're back. Mm-hmm. Your institute has been talking about as sort of some of the opportunism happening from the extreme right. It feels like there are like avowed anti-Semites that are using the current situation in Gaza to like kind of get their message in under the radar to people that are merely trying to learn more about what is happening on the ground. Are you seeing a lot of this kind of opportunistic rhetoric happening both on the side of anti-Semitism and then kind of in other ways on the side of Islamophobia? Yeah, definitely. I mean, any kind of major cultural flashpoint like this is going to be a big source of opportunism from extremist groups. And on the extreme right, we've seen neo-Nazis, white supremacists, all kinds of folks that have these really sort of ingrained anti-Semitic beliefs trying to insert themselves into the conversation. And they've sort, they sort of rehearse these talking

points for so long. They are absolutely obsessed with Israel and that sort of stuff. So now that that is in the news, you know, I think some of them have been able to, you know, get on platforms like Twitter or I guess it's X now. Don't even, don't even. Still Twitter. And, you know, kind of convey this false sense of authority, right? You know, and maybe they get people in by, you know, just kind of sharing news about what's going on or speculation or whatever.

And then, you know, if they get people along for the ride, then, you know, that's when the real shit comes out. You know, this is, and these kind of opportunities, you know, I think back to when I started and, you know, was is in these kind of opportunities. You know, I think back to when I started and, you know, I was hanging out on 4chan during the Trump movement and

whatever. And, you know, to this day, there's this obsession with like red pilling. Not a lot of people like call it that explicitly anymore, but just seeking these little opportunities to like plant these little seeds and try to take these social movements that have a lot of emotion, you know, that are maybe debated or less clear on facts in some cases, like in this one where there's like both a time zone gap and also just a disparity between like the amount of reporters on the ground that are able to get good information and like have it bounce through and then wind up in a U.S. audience, you know, in that gap, that's where they're trying to leverage things and get people, even if, you know, they're not going to go to like a pro-Palestine protest and walk away with a crowd of 2,000 neo-Nazis, and walk away with a crowd of 2,000 neo-Nazis, you know, they want to at least get some of their ideas even just slightly more popularized

because that has the effect of sanitizing them, right? When they come out, maybe they're a more extreme version of it, but if people are acclimated at the very least, even if they don't totally believe it, it still gives them an advantage in the discourse and like being viewed as legitimate or being viewed as you know being reflective of how people secretly really feel right it's like the greatest gift in the world to extremists because i feel like who's

that was that one guy benny johnson like oh that clown clown yeah like i felt early on he was like tweeting things that seemingly like appeared objective like about like policies of the israeli government and then people were like dude this guy is fucking a trash racist like like hold on these people that do this getting a ton of retweets right now know that this person has like his does not have their head in this for the right reasons he's purely here to like insert himself to get an audience that is eventually going to switch a certain way but like when you when you guys do an analysis you were obviously you're saying like you're seeing like an uptick in both islamophobic posts and anti-semitic posts but you're also very you're careful to do the thing which because right now I feel like we're in this environment where people are conflating Israel with the entire religion of Judaism or conflating a call for a ceasefire to be anti-Semitic.

So in that analysis, what were you on social media, there's no like totally perfect methodology. Sure. So these are like approximations based on like collections of keywords we put together and then sort of culling and refining, you know, getting the trash out of the data and that sort of stuff. the trash out of the data and that sort of stuff. But we're seeing increases to the tune of something like 400% or like two and a half times fold when it comes to anti-Semitism. But yeah, we try to be really careful in doing exactly what you just said. You know, people criticizing the government of Israel is not like inherently anti-Semitic right so that should not qualify and and again like you said calling for a ceasefire or you know that sort of thing is not necessarily like pro Hamas right I think the powers that be like these militaries and stuff right would like love for us to just be like

at each other's throats you know and failing to see this like middle humanitarian ground of being like what if killing innocent people is bad right right period yeah what if we're just against that yeah what what if like children didn't have to die indiscriminately right like that's but you know, in these situations that sort of headbutt that's happening is just like producing these huge rises in online rhetoric that's like very specifically Islamophobic, very specifically anti-Semitic. And those trends are also reflected in some of the early like offline data we're seeing you know leaders of synagogues getting targeted people showing up to pro-palestine protests with weapons like just

north of chicago and skokie someone showed up with like a it's like a paintball gun it's like a less than lethal gun type thing but it still managed to like terrorize the crowd and all that right so it's you know that conversation that's happening online is also reflecting itself in real life. And, you know, if you're a member of either one of these communities, maybe rightfully so, you would feel a little bit on edge.

Right. Yeah. And I'm sure adding to that, the utter lack of moderation on Twitter, it's just like, it's just a free-for-all. And I know you guys were pointing out that there's a 422% rise in the use of anti-muslim language on x since the start of this and yeah like that's why like when i first reached out i was like i'm really curious to get your perspective on this because i can i already was seeing like at the start of this that there were these like people

i'm like i'm pretty sure i know that handle but for bad reasons like i'm pretty sure this person is a scumbag like neo-Nazi. And then those just like kind of sanitize their avatar to be like, oh, I'm wearing a suit. And I have this like I have an Israeli and American flag in it, but I'm also doing this like really like really opportunistic shit. of how charged the entire situation is, it must be like, like, like extremists must be just like rubbing their hands together to be like, oh, we can really take advantage of this in either direction, really. Yeah, definitely. It's like if, I mean, if you look at the, you know, explosion at the hospital in Gaza,

for example, that was, that was like a really good example of the information gap that they're exploiting in this situation where there's reports of this explosion, you know, some initial remarks, both from, you know, government over Gaza and Israel. Newsrooms in the U.S. are trying to figure out what the hell is happening. A few of them fall like flat on their face. A lot of details still aren't clear. But that gap you know which can be several hours if not days and you know i mean we don't we still don't have like the most insane like if you're taking this position of being like inherently skeptical of like government claims right like as far as hard concrete this is one, what happened? We still don't have that, right?

And that gap is where the opportunity lies for these folks because they can come in and say, you know, you should listen to me because X, Y, Z. And while you're here, I've got all this extra shit to say. And then that's when they're getting sort of their, they're coming in this with ulterior motives. Right, right, right. You know?

Yeah, yeah. The conflating of anti-Semitism and criticism of the Israeli state is where a lot of these extremists are thriving. And then on the side of Islamophobia, as Miles mentioned, your organization found a 422% rise in the use of anti-muslim language on twitter since the start of the conflict but it's like it feels a little bit different there because so much of the u.s government and like mainstream media's official default position like since 2001 has had a lot of islamophobia baked into it so like how are guys, it seems like that this is metastasizing, Islamophobia is metastasizing in real time as this conflict is happening. How do you see,

how do you kind of track that? And how are you seeing it change currently? Yeah, so the numbers are, you know, an analysis of data that we're pulling off platforms using, you know, both third-party tools, tools we have, methodologies we have in-house to do this kind of stuff. But when it comes to, I think what you're speaking to, Jack, is like the mainstreaming effect of this stuff. Yeah. And that's a lot harder to track. streaming effect of this stuff yeah and that's a lot harder to track we are like actively at the drawing board on that like how can you quantify or like illustrate in a unobjectable way or undisputable way a mainstreaming effect so that's kind of a work in progress but i will say generally to see this kind of stuff also reflected in institutions and from individuals statements you know condemning this sort of thing

discouraging people from engaging in violence and that sort of stuff it actually does have an effect on people yeah so it's to me it when i see that kind of stuff reflected i just think it's like a forfeiting of a certain moral responsibility that as a leader in a society i think you should be compelled to right yeah rather than like yeah we're seeing people resigning from the new york times for expressing opposition to the killing of innocent palestinian people so yeah it's a it's a crazy time your organization recently released a report about white supremacy 3.0 which got me excited because i thought there might be some crypto that i could purchase involved with this because web 3.0 you know you gotta strike while the iron's hot those prices

are low you gotta buy the dip you know what you're saying you lost so many you, you lost so much money on the apes, you know, you got to find it. You got to figure out how to make that. I told him, I said, there's some racist imagery in that shit too, Jack. I don't know. I said, I'm blind right now. So how am I supposed to see this shit? I got welder's eye, man.

I don't know what I bought. I got welder's eye, bro. But yeah, I mean, like this is, it is wild because yeah, like seeing this idea of white supremacy, white nationalism 3.0, like was like, OK, wait. So we're talking about third wave racism, basically. So 1.0 being what, like skinheads like that era, which was that what we call 1.0. So 1.0 is, yeah, kind of the old school before people started doing point O's. Right. Yeah.

the old school before people started doing point O's. Um, right. Yeah. Yeah. Uh, you know, the 1.0 or I guess like, Oh,

like alt right. 1.0, that would be like the counter currents blog, VD air, Richard Spencer's of the world. Cause that was like, you know, these kind of like older folks,

a lot of them were writers and whatnot. 2.0 would be, you know, sort of like Charlottesville and what happened after that. And a lot of 1. writers and whatnot 2.0 would be you know sort of like charlottesville and what happened after that and a lot of 1.0 types were like part of the 2.0 it's not like these are completely distinct groups or movements or whatever and then like a 3.0 now is you know kind of its own mess i i think it maybe makes sense to think of it less in terms of like generations and maybe more in terms of tactics right right like this is the version one was all about like propaganda you know small groups on local levels whatever 2.0 was you know that big

attempt to go mainstream really soaking in the internet using that to full advantage and this 3.0 is almost like a little bit of return to form going back to that local model but with like a whole host of baggage that came from like the years before right because like even the term right is coming from their movement it's not something you guys like yeah this term yeah it's not like we came up we came up it's like for their own internal purposes like we need a white nationalism 3.0 for lack of a better word and like for them the aim is sort of to be able to make this their their ideology basically palatable to normal people is like

kind of like a huge part of this 3.0 push right yeah yeah and you know you would think that but actually it's you know our it guy called us and, hey, we've got the latest update for white nationalism. We have to refresh your computer. point like the tactic now is like okay maybe that didn't work what we really need is to be able to just kind of blend in and seem normal so this becomes an acceptable kind of ideology to subscribe to and they have very like their tactics are different now too even for recruiting right yeah yeah i i mean so uh the report we're talking about is about something called active clubs which we can talk about in a second but more generally in the white supremacist movement and just far right movements overall, they've kind of realized something that the evangelical right has known for decades, that like any effective organizing in the last few decades has understood very acutely, which is that

in the last few decades has understood very acutely, which is that winning a national office is hard. Running a candidate for president is hard. You know, even state government positions can be tricky. But school boards, city council, you know, like trying to get a sheriff in, like a lot of these are local elections that are won by, you know, in a lot of places, Right. there. And then, you know, by harassing these low level governments and threatening people, showing up at all these meetings, you know, going nuts, creating a hostile environment. A lot of these folks that ran for these local offices didn't sign up for that shit. They don't have resources to like be safe when that shit's happening. Right. So a lot of them resign, like a lot of election officials on the county level have resigned, you know, over the last few years. I just saw a report about that recently, about how there's a lot of election officials that are resigning. People like buckle up for 24 then, because this is exactly the kind of situation like extremists want.

Right. And if these offices are easier to win, if it's easier to get their policies through, like their dream vote policies or at the very least smacking down policies they don't like, you know, that if. It starts to become more feasible, right? It's like the most time-tested way to gain political power, which is start at the bottom and work your way up. Right. All right, let's take a quick break and we'll come back. We'll keep talking about this strategy

and we'll get into active clubs. We'll be right back. I'm Jess Casavetto, executive producer of the hit Netflix documentary series Dancing for the Devil, the 7M TikTok cult. And I'm Clea Gray, former member of 7M Films and

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wherever you get your podcasts. And we're back. And so a lot of what we're talking about is like this opportunism to try and like show up at these Flashpoint media events and where they think cameras will be to, you know, make themselves appear more numerous. Like we've talked before about what's the mothers group? Mothers for Liberty. Yeah. Moms for Liberty. Yeah.

Moms for Liberty that like oftentimes, you know, they're not very numerous, but they show up at other people's school board meetings. And that happens at a lot of these. Like people are showing up at protests who don't have kids going to that school. Yeah, or they don't even live in the county. Yeah, but they're spreading that ideology around to make it seem like it's more common, right?

Yeah, yeah. I mean, part of the calculation there is that they think maybe I'll inspire someone else to do this, too. Right. Yeah. Yeah. And then a lot of it is just like bolstering influence because it's it's about creating like a certain perception. Right. Because if you're maybe less so on like neo-Nazi groups, for example, but like if you're a moms for liberty you can maybe get the ear of a politician a little bit easier if it's just like look we're the ones that actually show up and do stuff look everyone's scared of us they've got you know we got all this media coverage we're looking at all these clips of whatever like we could we we can do that for you but we need

some you know classic political power broken right But but creating sort of this larger than life perception is extremely common on the far right. Because if you look at polling on what they actually believe, it's not popular. So you have to like create the perception that you are more acceptable than you are generally. And then use that to try to leverage your way to like get into more rooms or have more of a lane to run in politically. huge clashes with people who were merely just trying to be like uh let's not criminalize like curriculum that acknowledges like lgbtq people and you had all these like extremists out there with their like protect our kids nonsense but a lot of people who like locally monitor like the extremists right here like it's the same like 7 to 12 people who just change shirts show up at another thing and scare the shit out of people because they're like damn like there's a group for this there's a group for this but a lot of it to your point is just to sort of project this sort of like idea that it's like they're there's they are numerous and they are legion they're everywhere yeah yeah yeah that like to the and

that like which is frightening because you think like holy shit even where i live but on the other side to make it bittersweet you're like okay, OK, this is a tactic, obviously, because that is it's all about the perception because perception is reality. And if they have they're perceived to be this like larger than life group, then maybe the reactions that they're going to get from people is like, I don't know. I don't know if I can fucking fuck with this or step to this kind of kind of shit. Yeah. Yeah. And I also just want to say all that with the caveat that one person can be dangerous. Yeah, yeah, of course. Like, even if these people aren't actually, like, under the sewer grates, like, ready to jump up and snatch you off the street or whatever, like, it's, these groups can still cause a lot of harm. Right.

Like, especially violence committed in the name of hate or whatever it can really really impact communities and like very profound ways right so i don't want to like say any of that to minimize sure sure the risk or threat here right but like it also is important if we think about like what to do about it to realize that like the source of these problems that might seem really big like you said the same 12 guys right right so just taking us off topic for a second wait like what they believe is not popular but then when you look at the polls for the and obviously we don't like put a ton of stock into polls but the polls for the 2024 presidential election would have trump like winning again i guess possibly partially because biden is so unpopular but like how do you square these small numbers of people who are thinking

very strategically but like using you know basically smoke and mirrors to make themselves seem more popular more mainstream to people who are willing to vote for Trump at this point when he has gone like fully down the rabbit hole of being, you know, just buying into his own conspiracies and steering into the death cult that wants him as its sort of messiah figure. Yeah. I mean, the way I think about it is and i have to remind myself this all the time which is that like not everybody is like terminally addicted to news like sure right like like the same way that i like know jack shit about movies and hollywood it's like what a lot of people are like towards politics

where they're just like oh yeah who's like you can put like lindsey graham on the screen and people be like yeah he he's like a politician is that john lithgow you know so like yeah yeah yeah so i think that you know kind of the stories that the campaign tells is going to be a lot more important sort of the vibe they generate and you know i heard this like political pollster consultant guy i forget his name but he said something that sort of stuck with me a while ago which is that like a lot of times presidential elections are just reflections on who's currently in office if people are unhappy with like biden that's you know just as likely to push someone to vote for trump rather than you know versus like a really deep committed thing where he's like oh you know trump said he won all 50 states and you know what

i think that's true and that's why i'm gonna vote for trump you know i think it's i think a lot of people just don't get that deep into it, which is kind of, you know, I'm not saying everybody has to get as deep as me. God, no, please don't. But like, you know, I do wish there was maybe like a little bit better political, it's not political, civics, like just more engaged civics in the US, you know? Sure. Because there's more of us in them.

Right. And yeah, and like to this point, it's people are like oh i mean i don't know i don't know what half of these policies are i just like that i don't know i just like trump more like i couldn't tell you what systemic oppression looks like and so i'm not necessarily like explicitly signing up for that i just i just don't care but also i like the vibe here i think is yeah definitely one way people are voting um like i guess in terms of like recruiting now because like obviously on its face some of like obviously a lot of most if not all of their ideology is like repugnant to most like normal people what's like now the way they're

like okay shit it didn't work when we're wearing like nazi uniforms in public what is the how can we bring more people into this in a way that seems more palatable like that's is this all sort of like this is kind of why this active clubs movement is like on the rise yeah i mean that's part of it like the whole white supremacist movement isn't doing this but they all seem to be like kind of generally like curious or at the very least like kind of indifferent to it. It's long been a recruiting tactic of white supremacists to kind of pick out like guys and usually men specifically that, you know, are maybe kind of like down, if that makes sense. You know, they just their life just kind of isn't working out, whatever. And they're looking for something to fill it.

And they say, check it out. I got something to fill it. It's hate. So, you know, along comes active clubs, which have been around for a little bit, but really, really seem to have taken off in the last year. And active clubs, part of it sounds fine, right? You meet up with your bros. You work out. You form these strong male friendships and bonds sounds cool right not so fast uh you know and essentially

like all these guys get together they get that sense of camaraderie they get you know, some level of self-improvement and then they are just bludgeoned and like indoctrinated and also with very intense white supremacist or, you know, just outright fascistic philosophy and outlook. you know, felt emboldened by that, you know, gotten to a point where they're kind of feeling themselves and they're going out and getting involved in, you know, there was a mayoral election in Tennessee where one of the active clubs got like really plugged into it. A lot of them are showing up alongside other white supremacist groups for protests and, you know, dropping banners down the sides of highways and waving signs around and whatnot so you know it's it's really kind of taken off in the last year and uh it's it's very it's like some of the nazis are getting buff now right right so it's like a simplistic way to put it but yeah i remember there was like a simplistic way to put it. you know, attack people, but like using like those skills that they're cultivating as this group to

explicitly deploy against people like the LGBTQ community or like against Jewish people or whatever their, their targeted group is. And yeah, like it's now like it's to the point where it seems like from the report that came out from ISD, it's like, it's really blowing up in the Pacific Northwest, New England and the Southeast now. Yeah. Yeah. And they are trying to get it to replicate everywhere else too, but it's, um, it's really caught on in those areas. A lot of those areas have, you know, these sort of historical contacts with the far right. I think maybe they have a little bit more like social space to operate in. And, you know, part of it is also just like the people doing this, where do they live?

You know, they all ride this certain area. But yeah, there's like a few parts of the country where they're sort of concentrated there. And then just generally recruiting like the active clubs do this the same way other groups do and movements do. Right. the same way other groups do in movements do right like because not everybody in the far right is in some like group where they have a membership card and like show up to meetings or right most of them aren't i would say it's just this portrayal not necessarily initially is like you have to come come be a white supremacist because white supremacy is awesome right a lot of it has to do with you know othering and then projecting hate and grievances onto uh out groups which are often minority groups in these cases so it's you know

essentially the argument is like the world is just so fucked up that what are you gonna do if you go along with this you're gonna get destroyed come with us we'll help you out you know we'll we're going to fight back against this and we're going to do you know counteract this modern grievance that we have. spectrum generally to get people in the movement it's like it's all centered on like the like what you're opposing rather than like a very clear and coherent like direction forward do you see this working to the extent of like that there we're in danger of seeing this thing just like take off in a second trump presidency because i think a lot of people are coming to terms with the fact that like a second trump presidency is a real possibility we feel like there's going to be more shamelessness like more just open aggression on his behalf and on behalf of his administration. But how do you see

these things interacting with that possibility? I mean, we saw extremist groups get really bold during the first Trump administration. And I think a lot of that had to do with things that Trump was saying. It had to do with stuff that was happening behind the scenes, like, you know, defunding task forces, looking at domestic extremism and that sort of thing. Right. That essentially gave like a longer leash to these folks. They were kind of feeling themselves thinking, you know, OK, we're really getting somewhere. We have a popular political movement on our side here we go

some extremists like some of the more like really really hardcore ones are not huge on trump but kind of still dig a little bit what he represents i i definitely think it's possible that you know a lot of these movements just kind of go buck wild, you know, if it's like a gloves are off moment. Right. Cause if you look at the Trump campaign, how it exists now and sort of like how it looks like it's about to manifest ahead of next year, the whole theme is like, you're mad at the state of the world. Well, I'm your retribution, right? Like come with me, come on the journey that I'm on.

And then this is how we're gonna get those motherfuckers right and that's the same i'm gonna fuck them up for you like vote for me right that is the same message these groups send to people they're trying to recruit so i think even if it does you know will there be an active club on every block probably not right um like things are trending away from like really tightly like hierarchical groups and the extremist movement at the moment but the general like energy of them and the general like tactics and to some extent like vision or shared enemy that they perceive like that i could see that getting really energized so i think you know while active clubs are like a

important piece of this equation they're getting bolder and showing up at you know city councils and and kind of getting out in the wild a little bit more and posing you know specific you know really immediate threats to people in the broader schemes of things i I think that, you know, in a second Trump presidency, unless things just radically change overnight, we could see a lot of sort of the animating forces behind this stuff really just like scream out and burn bright. Yeah. Happy stuff. Yeah. And that's so horrifying. Yeah. And that's so horrifying. And I think as we all look towards next year and being like, oh, fuck, man, like And I feel like there's a there's probably something we can learn right from this Dinesh D'Souza piece of trash work of media

that's come out that is maybe a little bit instructive, or at least can indicate sort of where rhetorically this like movement is headed, at least into next year. Can you like just sort of talk about that? I mean, I know broadly what this thing was about, but unlike you, I did not actually do the work to subject myself to watch the whole two hours of it. This is a police state, right? Yeah, yeah. To be clear, the work was spending $20 and giving up two hours of precious time. And you won't get those two hours back.

And I apologize but yeah yeah but now make it worth something for us i'll have to explain that to my grandkids one day yeah right right your grandpappy spent two hours watching this i saw your credit card statements are you sure you weren't into like right wing stuff no i was monitoring ah i can't keep telling you kids this shit but yeah what what is police state kind of showing us like what what kind of glimpse is it giving us so police state was put out by danesh sisuza dan bongino biggest head in the right wing commentary game literally in a literal sense yeah and it's like the name suggests it seeks to answer the question, is the U.S. becoming a police state?

It answers the question for itself, like the first five minutes of the movie, where they're just like, is it becoming a police state? And Dan Bongino's like, hell yeah, brother, it sure is. And it's like, okay, cool. All right, cool. Thanks for the 20 bucks. There's another hour and 50 minutes to go.

So it kind of goes around talking to all these different cranks some are just like weird internet personalities some are like one of them is a guy who got fired from the trump white house for speaking at a conference with white nationalists which like you know had to be bad to get fired out of that trump administration for that you've got people like julie kelly in there who have made a shit ton of money and fame doing like January 6 revisionism. And it's all kind of trying to put together this argument through different stories of conservative activists getting punished by law enforcement, Trump getting investigated by federal law enforcement and charged with crimes you know the way that some january 6 uh defendants you know experienced arrests and stuff to all say that the united states yes is becoming a police state and it's you know democrats that are doing

it and republicans are actually opposed to it and trump oh he is he's the biggest victim of it all right now and it's a very american thing to be like scared of your government and to like i think just in your heart a little bit hate it and i i do think that you know it's the stuff that was said in the movie, like is stuff that's been said in the pro-trump movement, like ad nauseum for the last year and a half, at least probably the last two years. online i'm thinking of the people that actually like show up to shit in your local republican party office or your like local you know remnant of a tea party conservative group that has a lot of sway in the state elections or whatever they watch this stuff right they're getting their talking points from this stuff and dinesh d'Souza is like very close to Trump world Dan Bongino is very close to Trump world so I when I was watching this it wasn't necessarily that I was just like oh my god where are they

getting this from right I've heard all this stuff like forever but or it feels like forever anyway but the way that it was packaged right I thought was, I hate to say it, but it was like one of D'Souza's better movies in terms of just sheer production value. And I do wonder like what, if you're like a Republican that hasn't fully drank the Kool-Aid, will this resonate with you at all? Or is this like a movie by cranks for cranks right right yeah yeah because it seems like at the end it's sort of like these people are getting like in trouble with law enforcement for breaking laws it's a police state it's kind of like the distillation of it but i can see how some people who are clearly like sort of on the like rhetorically they're like no whatever trump does isn't a crime this is actually this is just they're they're coming for us because i'm in that i have that worldview is that they're coming for us and i feel like that probably very neatly overlaps with that especially to have people who are they're like no i'm like it happened to me and that's why you the viewer should also be tuned into this yeah the world is changing in ways you

don't like but if you do something about it the police are going to come for you and the only way to fix this is electing republicans it's kind of like the message of this movie and yeah like you pointed out like a lot of the retellings in this movie of people that were like supposedly targeted by the deep state really don't explain why it's just they came after me and attacked me because i i was a mom who's vocal in my community no because hard cut i was a mom who no i'm sorry actually you were involved in a like you were implicated indirectly in a plot to like steal voting machines that's right fbi showed up at your house right you came with someone who like presented themselves as law enforcement to gain access to machines and now you're like i didn't know well and now i guess it's my turn but yeah how could they do that yeah yeah for real it's uh yeah all of it adds up you know for a very very you know i feel we're just we just

gotta buckle up again it's like i thought 2020 just happened and i was like this is going to be a fucking nightmare but we're we're we're fully stepping into another one now between just everything that is happening online in physical space and like even with trump's trial you can see how much it's energizing people too because he fully now gets to be like here it is folks they're trying to do everything to me while most of us are like is it is anything gonna happen to be like, here it is, folks. They're trying to do everything to me. While most of us are like, is anything going to happen? Will it? Who knows? Yeah.

And when it does, they feel like this sort of propaganda seems like it has him positioned to actually benefit from when he actually faces consequences. Because then they'll just be like, see, we told you. It's all part of the conspiracy if they can put a president in jail for doing crimes think of what they can do to you when you do crimes that's right yeah law and order though wait i always thought that people got in trouble for doing crimes it is kind of a brilliant strategy because they get to star in a spy movie that isn't really happening so they just like get the fun and none of the consequences like they're like there's this anecdote from mother jones

article like who somebody who went to see the film in theaters because it was out for like two days and uh the author yeah police state the danesh desuza film the author says perhaps the most unsettling part of the film occurs at the end when desuza calls on the audience to sing a national anthem in solidarity with the january 6th political prisoners one of whom is portrayed by an actor wearing an orange jumpsuit all around me so this is in the theater all around me people jumped and chanted usa usa and then they sang along as we exited the theater i overheard a guy urging his friends to cover their faces on the way out because obviously the deep state would be there watching they'll be taking pictures he warned to which his friend replied i'm surprised

i haven't gotten a knock on the door already oh boy but it's like yeah so this allows them to like cosplay as as a spy. Yeah, but also a victim. You've got to be a victim, but also a cool spy. Yeah, cool spy. Simon in True Lies, you know. Yeah, for real. Well, Jared, I wish I could say it's been fun,

but it's been very enlightening. We really appreciate you doing the work of kind of monitoring this stuff and letting us know what's happening. Because it feels like we're on the precipice of some other bullshit this time. So thank you for helping fill us in. Where can people find you, follow you, all that good stuff? I'm on Twitter and Blue Sky at jared l holt but what's way more important is that you go to instagram and follow my dog at pierre turbo he's a 9.8 pound pomeranian he's way cooler than me and if you've listened to this point in the show you've heard enough of this shit so like

definitely go check out my dog for a little bit check out pierre pierre you can catch up with me later somewhere else yeah i thought you're gonna be like it's more important that you go follow the institute for strategic dialogue i love oh that's that's probably that's probably what i should have said nah fuck that i'm following your dog that's helpful uh is there a work of media that you've been enjoying one of the shows that i did watch was on netflix the like get john gaudy docuseries that was really good and that was really entertaining that's like classic you know new york mob history and i'm i have like a i'm always like fascinated by that stuff so it's yeah yeah recommend that that was Awesome. Miles, where can people find you? Is there a work media you've been enjoying?

Find me on the at-based platforms at Miles of Gray. And also find Jack and I on our very not news politics, our news and politics podcast, Miles and Jack on Mad Boosties, where we talk about the game of basketball uh and also you can find me on uh what is it uh 420 day fiance check that out um let's see a tweet i like uh this is from lucas febraro at lucas febraro uh was like uh replying to just like a like someone was showing how a new york times headlines is how like the passive voice is just so wild.

Because like it's a New York Times explosion. Gazan say was airstrike leaves many casualties in dense neighborhood. Like, I'm sorry, what explosion they call air. And then Lucas did a Photoshop looks like a New York Times cover on September 12th, 2001 with the Twin Towers. It says, explosion happens. Twin Towers damaged. Witnesses report planes flying overhead. And that's what that looks like.

But yeah, it feels like a very, it's kind of what we're dealing with now. If we look at some of the headlines. How could the planes do that? Yeah. Right. How could the planes do that? Yeah. Right. What were they thinking? How could the explosion do that? Yeah, like just the lack of clarity.

It's just so passive. So insidious, man. And when you learn journalism in school, like they teach you not to do this. There's really no good excuse for this. Truly. Tweet I've been enjoying. Mariana Z tweeted,

Did you know if you lose a sock in the dryer it comes back as a tupperware lid that doesn't fit any of your containers that explains fucking everything wow in my adult life do you keep them you keep those lids oh yeah you're talking about i i rage quit them i got a shed full of those motherfuckers that storage unit filled with it can't even open the door yeah i also liked this tweet from dave itzkoff he retweeted an a still image from the new york marathon and it had helen obiri uh who's one of the runners and it says born on december 13th 1989 parentheses same day as taylor swift and davis cuff was like work your angle myc marathon which it's just like all the sports are

like how do we relate sport to taylor swift right find a runner who has the same birthday anyways you can find me on twitter at jack underscore o'brien you can find us on twitter at daily zeitgeist we're at the daily zeitgeist on instagram we have a facebook fan page and a website dailyzeitgeist.com where we post our episodes and our footnotes where we link off to the information that we talked about in today's episode what's a song we think you might enjoy miles what song do we think people might enjoy uh i was listening so you know tame impala is obviously kevin parker but everybody in that band they're also in like a ton of other bands so if you like tame impala there's a chance that one of these offshoot bands you would also like

case in point is gum which is led by i believe he's like the guitar like one of the lead guitar players in tame impala and this track is called Glamorous Damage. And if you like the Tame Impala vibes, you're definitely going to fuck with this track. So this is Glamorous Damage by Gum. G-U-M-D-A-M. All right. Well, The Daily Zyka is a production of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.

That is going to do it for us this morning. We are back this afternoon to tell you what is trending. And we will talk to you all then. Bye. Bye. I'm Jess Casavetto, executive producer of the hit Netflix documentary series, Dancing for the Devil, the 7M TikTok cult. And I'm Clea Gray, former member of 7M Films and Shekinah Church.

And we're the host of the new podcast, Forgive Me For I Have Followed. Together, we'll be diving even deeper into the unbelievable stories behind 7M Films and Shekinah Church. Listen to Forgive Me For I Have Followed on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Keri Champion, and this is season four of Naked Sports. Up first, I explore the making of a rivalry. Kaitlyn Clark versus Angel Reese. Every great player needs a foil. I know I'll go down in history.

People are talking about women's basketball just because of one single game. Clark and Reese have changed the way we consume women's sports. Listen to the making of a rivalry. Kaitlyn Clark versus Angel Reese on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Presented by Capital One,

founding partner of iHeart Women's Sports. Hey, I'm Gianna Pradenti. And I'm Jermaine Jackson-Gadsden. We're the hosts of Let's Talk Offline from LinkedIn News and iHeart Podcasts. There's a lot to figure out when you're just starting your career. That's where we come in.

Think of us as your work besties you can turn to for advice. And if we don't know the answer, we bring in people who do, like negotiation expert Maury Tahiripour. If you start thinking about negotiations as just a conversation,

then I think it sort of eases us a little bit. Listen to Let's Talk Offline on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.