The Daily Zeitgeist - Trump’s Make-A-Wish Demands, Will Curiosity Save Us? 08.30.22

Episode Date: August 30, 2022

In episode 1320, Jack and Miles are joined by designer, activist, curator, and CEO of Epic Decade, Seth Goldenberg to discuss… We have a terrible imagination for a better future, WE NEED TO CHANGE THAT, Trump’s Really Desperate and That's Probably Not Great and more! BUY Seth Goldenberg's BOOK: Radical Curiosity: Questioning Commonly Held Beliefs to Imagine Flourishing Futures LISTEN: Por el Suelo by SumohairSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Hey, I'm Gianna Pradenti. And I'm Jermaine Jackson-Gadsden. We're the hosts of Let's Talk Offline from LinkedIn News and iHeart Podcasts. There's a lot to figure out when you're just starting your career. That's where we come in. Think of us as your work besties

you can turn to for advice. And if we don't know the answer, we bring in people who do, like negotiation expert Maury Tahiripour. If you start thinking about negotiations as just a conversation, then I think it sort of eases us a little bit. Listen to Let's Talk Offline on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

I'm Jess Costavetto, executive producer of the hit Netflix documentary series, Dancing for the Devil, the 7M TikTok cult. And I'm Clea Gray, former member of 7M Films and Shekinah Church. And we're the host of the new podcast, Forgive Me For I Have Followed. Together, we'll be diving even deeper into the unbelievable stories behind 7M Films and Shekinah Church. Listen to Forgive Me For I Have Followed on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,

or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Keri Champion, and this is season four of Naked Sports. Up first, I explore the making of a rivalry. Kaitlyn Clark versus Angel Reese. Every great player needs a foil. I know I'll go down in history. People are talking about women's basketball just because of one single game.

Clark and Reese have changed the way we consume women's sports. Listen to the making of a rivalry. Kaitlyn Clark versus Angel Reese on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcasts. Presented by Elf Beauty, founding partner of iHeart Women's Sports. I'm Keri Champion, and this is Season 4 of Naked Sports. Up first, I explore

the making of a rivalry, Caitlin Clark versus Angel Reese. People are talking about women's basketball just because of one single game. Clark and Reese have changed the way we consume women's basketball. And on this new season, we'll cover all things sports and culture. Listen to Naked Sports on the Black Effect Podcast Network, iHeartRadio apps, or wherever you get your podcasts.

The Black Effect Podcast Network is sponsored by Diet Coke. Hello, the internet, and welcome to season 252, episode 2 of Dirt Daily Zeit, guys! Yeah! A production of iHeartRadio. This is a podcast where we take a deep dive into America's shared consciousness. It's Tuesday, August 30th, 2022, which of course means it's getting up. Shout out to my dad. It's his birthday today.

Hey! Yeah, so that's his birthday today. Yeah, so that's his birthday today. Big Todd, shout out to you and also National Beach Day, National Toasted Marshmallow Day. National Beach Day coming late in the summer. I love it. Is it because

maybe Labor Day is like they're sort of saying here's your last kind of... Your last chance, assholes. Get it in. I think that's the voice that my beach day speaks in it's just very it's like a bully yeah it's like an exhausted bully or like a mean gym teacher right all right dipshits enough jackassing around get out there to the beach get out there i know you going to be on the beach chasing girls. All right.

Anyways. My name's Jack O'Brien, a.k.a. Yo Jack Horseman. I think that's going to be a regular one. That's courtesy of Miles Gray. And I'm thrilled to be joined by my co-host, Mr. Miles Gray! You know what? It's Miles Gray. Just still feeling that valley pride.

The Lord of Lancashire, Hideo Noho, is back in the building. It's Fairmount's artist, your boy, Kusama. So thank you for having me. Well, Miles, we are thrilled to be joined by a designer, activist, curator, CEO of Epic Decade, the author of the new book, Radical Curiosity, questioning commonly held beliefs to imagine flourishing futures. It's Seth Goldenberg. What's up, Seth?

Not much. Good to be here. Thanks for having me. Yeah, thanks for doing it. Absolutely. Where are you coming to us from out there in the world? I am in New York City today. Okay, all right. How's in New York city today. Okay. All right. How's the weather? Good.

Buggy. Oh, all right. Oh yeah. I think on Friday are some of our people who work in New York. Like it's a storm right now. Right. Right.

It's a storm right now. It's a storm. Weather report. I like to tune into the weather channel and have them tell me it's a storm right now. Bob, uh, if you're... Back to you. And you tell us, what is Epic Decade? You guys are like kind of a lot of things, right?

We are a lot of things. Epic Decade is a design studio. We are a merry band of biologists and anthropologists and graphic designers and strategic thinkers who take on big, complex challenges. Nice. How'd that all come together? I've read a few interviews with you and a little bit of your book, and I know you talk about the salons of yore. And is that sort of like that was a big inspiration or you also or it seems to me just with how you look at the world you think everything is multifaceted henceforth it's always good to have a diverse palette of opinions to sort of take something on yeah absolutely yeah i mean i i began

as a as an artist as a painter first and foremost i was I went to Rhode Island school of design. I went to art school to be an oil painter and only kind of recently wandered into the field of design. But I think whether you're an artist or a designer, for me, it's all about asking questions. So this book really, for me, was a way to make sense of a very interdisciplinary practice, but kind of simplify it down to say, no matter what kind of craft, what kind of format, what kind of industry we're working in, we are asking the thorniest, craziest, most essential questions of our time.

All right. Well, we're going to get to some of those craziest essential questions. First, we're going to tell our listeners a couple of things we're talking about. I mean, mainly we're going to talk about your book, a different version of how we come together. It's either what we've been given in this sort of status quo of the Western world with a market that kind of dictates everything, or it's a dystopia, like it's Mad Max, and there's not much else. And that's it. Like it's Mad Max, and there's not much else. And that's it. Those are the two versions that we have. So we want to talk to you about why that is,

what you think some solutions are for that, and just generally have a far-ranging conversation. If we have time, we might even get to Breitbart's Hunter Biden movie, which is in no way related to that. But it is. Yeah, I guess it is. It's art. It's great art. And we're excited for it.

So we're going to maybe talk about that. But before we get to any of it, Seth, we do like to ask our guests, what is something from your search history that's revealing about who you are or where you are as a person? Well, yeah, I've been thinking a lot about food recently and how I don't know about you guys, but I don't I don't know what to do when I get into the grocery store. It's like there's like one hundred thousand options and I got to get in. I got to get out. It's like, you know, I'm like weaving through like it's a football match. But I've been thinking about nutrition for my own health. And I, I googled how many nutritionists are in the United States? Wow. How many, how many people are in the business of nutrition,

that that is their expertise, They formally register with the government as labor statistics. I identify as nutritious. 66,000. That's a lot. Is that a lot or a little? I'm trying to wrap my head around how comparatively... I was going to guess 12.

It's scary how few. Right. Think about it like this. There's millions and millions of people growing food, but just 60,000 helping us understand what to put in our bodies. Right, right, right. Yeah. 330 million Americans, 66,000 people are actually knowing how to consume food. Good ratios.

Good ratios. Good ratios. I like those odds for our healthcare system, for sure. There you go. I feel like there's not really a great authority, right? Even the nutritional information that we get is pretty contradictory and studies come out that debunk other studies. But I feel like just generally when I see a study that is like dark chocolate and red wine are the keys to a long life, which are the two studies that seem to come up every month since I was born in the 80s. Like that, I don't know, it seems very confusing.

And like there's no real center of gravity when it comes to like our nutritional information. I attribute that largely to the fact that like the government doesn't fund any sort of central nutritional thing. And so it's all just like different people trying to find different ways to make money and like massive corporations lobbying and stuff like that. But what do you, what are your thoughts on like sort of the organization, let alone the, you know, number, the sheer mass of nutritionist in the country? Like, well, how do you feel about like how we get our information on nutrition? Well, I, I think that we know very little about food. A surprising and scary amount of information. And it's not even about information. I think it's food as a whole culture and set of traditions and lifestyles. And, you know, I have no real literacy about my experience of food. Right. You think about it, right? You go to, when you go to school,

we have literacy for reading. We have literacy for mathematics. We have literacy. We have a language for so many parts of our lives, but hundreds of millions of people around the world don't have a language, a kind of health literacy for their experience of food. Convenience and price have become the predominant variables. Right. And it's really, it's really killing us. Right. Yeah. Yeah.

I can remember. It's like the most literacy I have is like eat, eat vegetables at least. I think that's like where my like nutrition literacy sort of bottoms out where it's like, well, I know that. I mean, like you got to balance shit aside from that.

Then you read constantly stuff where it's like, man, you have one serving of dairy that like ups your chances of these kinds of cancers. Like, you know, like what? Huh? I, but I had vegetables. What, what am I? Dairy make bones strong. Come on. Yeah. to some of the core ideas in the book, right? And I love that you open with imagination. I mean, we're raised inside of a variety of what I call legacy narratives. And those legacy narratives about food

or about home or about family or about money, these ideas are, I call them legacies because they're inherited. You know, we're born into them. The decisions about these things happened long before we showed up. And they're indoctrinated. They're institutionalized. They're rooted into many facets of our lives.

And we don't even ask questions about them. Right? Right. Yeah, I feel like nutrition has gone through, like in my lifetime, Right. during that time we have seen like the how healthy people eat just like go in the in the absolute shit like just in terms of yeah i mean like just you know the obesity epidemic people just generally i think feel much worse and like it i think you know michael pollan has written about the idea of like, you know, breaking foods down into these like component parts where it's like, there are these

four numbers that you need to know about each of your foods and how foreign that is from long-term, you know, deep historical information that people had about food that that was just i think somewhat erased erased by our understanding of of culture but yeah yeah that evolution is wild too because it's like food as nutrition versus food as coping mechanism which you know a lot of the times i'll i'll make food decisions be like you know what fuck my health for this meal like i want to eat this and it's not just like considering what like on a continuum how much of this have i been eating is that good do i need to interrupt that but a lot of the time it's sort of dictated by like what i'm feeling in the moment rather than what you're talking about is even like a literacy

around what my body actually needs which occasionally it does and like i go into a full-on craving for like vegetables and things because i think my body actually needs, which occasionally it does. And like, I go into a full on craving for like vegetables and things because I think my body's like, hey, asshole, enough with the Taco Bell. Fuck my health being often the entire thesis statement of a meal for me. I'm going to do some damage here. Let's go nuts.

What is something you think is overrated, Seth? History. History. All right. Just boring? You're like, snooze fest. Well, I say it to be a little provocative. I think we're imprisoned by much of our history. I think that history can be beautiful, history can be critical, but at times I think it holds us back. And I think we need to up the ante on the courage to unchain ourselves from that history and author what the future might look like right so yeah if history is overrated future is underrated i mean as a designer i'm a kind of futurist my job is to help organizations invent the future and the number one thing that holds people back is that comfort with a history that is recognizable.

Right. Yeah. And just like default narratives, right? Like that's something that I feel like I came out of my education feeling like history was pretty settled and that was sort of toxic to my my ability to feel like curiosity about the world was a lot of what i learned in history which was like dates and figures and like this thing happened and that's indisputable and yeah and that's that and that's the tidy explanation for all of this yeah what's uh sets to do you like what sort of like the most insidious way that our sort of attachment to history sort of like undermines like our well-being, our ability to improve life? Yeah, I mean, I think it even even your your gesture there of, you know, that happened. I mean, most of how we retell history is not objective right right so it's it's not as clean as this is what happened right those who win get to tell the story right right so there's a fascinating dynamic about history where it's hard to not imagine that much of the narratives

we embody as we learn from history has an ideological bent or has a particular bias or a point of view, whether that's cultural, whether that's race, whether that's who and what perspective told the story. But I think when you ask what holds us back, it's as though whoever won told the story, and telling the story is a form of power. And so there's a power that holds over us about the particular models that we learn and live by that get passed on as a tradition, right? I mean, I tell a joke sometimes. I saw a great meme that says, you know, history is peer pressure from dead people, right?

And I think part of what we're going through right now is information and knowledge is flat, and there's never been a shorter distance between information and the power to invent and alter. we can author new histories in real time and that what we're seeing in some ways a great deal of the kind of friction and kind of birthing pains that i believe our culture is going through right now is a as an expression of a legacy narrative that history kind of dissolving right and new challenger narratives new ways of seeing and inhabiting the world are being born and that's like stretch marks to society right like when you see a protest i mean when you see an event when you see black lives matter that's not just a protest of that city's encounter. That is a symbol of an old narrative and a new narrative in collision. So the past and the future are constantly kind of pulling and tugging up against one another. And it'd be interesting if we understood what's happening in contemporary life in that way so we could detangle ourselves

from narratives that frankly aren't working for us anymore like functionally like i mean like what's something specifically right like if you're taking something like i feel like you talk about these legacy narratives i think one that's like really eroding is this idea that like after world war ii the united states was one of the most fantastic places on Earth to be, you know, and it's like, look at everything they had. But then most people were like, wasn't like that for my family back then. It wasn't like this for this. this friction of people saying like well if it's so bad you should leave are these people not wanting to let go of this idea that it was so clean cut that this was prosperity experienced by all then something just went wrong you know i'm curious like in looking at things like that how how is it you know i guess just keep it to like american popular american society or cultural

history like what's the thing that you feel feel Americans should very quickly let go of? Well, I think it's, for me, the idea of narrative, it's not so much that, it's not like the American dream, although that is, of course, a narrative, a story we tell ourselves. It's kind of like even just the basic idea of of uh you know maslov's hierarchy of needs like we're very occupied at epic decade with how we will live learn work play and sustain ourselves like the five big questions of human existence right so if you took health, live, right? If you took learn, education, I mean, an example I often give is

if you ask anybody in America, is K to 12 public education working for every child and is the most beautiful, most innovative, most glorious experience on the planet? They'd say no. But at the same time, we throw you in prison if you don't go. Welcome to truancy. So we have these kind of ideologies that are kind of in conflict,

these paradoxes that we've adopted and kind of just put on autopilot, like the hospital is a place to get healthy. Actually, maybe maybe maybe not right food is food all food is good it will give you energy maybe maybe not right we were just talking i think you know it's and it's not that it's like yes or no or like we need to let go of something it's like you know the idea of radical curiosity is simply to ask questions about things that we just assumed are on autopilot right yeah and it's more for me what i would advocate for is things that seemed unbreakable are kind of dissolving around us in my lifetime

banks that were untouchable dissolved in front of our eyes through the financial crisis. In my lifetime, questions you couldn't ask out loud. Are there 57 genders? Holy shit. My grandparents grew up

it was unconceivable that there was anything other than a male or a female. These aren't just like American ideas or even Western ideas. Our whole world is revisiting what it means to be human right now. So core, core things like gender, how long we live. You know, it should, should all society be capitalistic? Welcome to presidents running on universal basic income platforms where we give away money for free. These are small, little, what I call upending indicators, but they're not small. We're in the process of rebooting the operating system of the human

condition right now. It's a fascinating time to be alive. You know what questions to ask. Right. All right. Let's take a quick break. We'll come back and we'll kind of keep this conversation going. We'll be right back. thing. Hey, I'm Gianna Pradente. And I'm Jemay Jackson-Gadsden. We're the hosts of Let's Talk Offline, a new podcast from LinkedIn News and iHeart Podcasts. When you're just starting out in your career, you have a lot of questions like, how do I speak up when I'm feeling overwhelmed? Or can I negotiate a higher salary if this is my first real job? Girl, yes. Each week, we answer your unfiltered work questions. Think of us as your work besties you can turn to for advice. And if we don't know the answer, we bring in experts who do,

like resume specialist Morgan Saner. The only difference between the person who doesn't get the job and the person who gets the job is usually who applies. Yeah, I think a lot about that quote. What is it like you miss 100 percent of the shots you never take? Yeah, rejection is scary, but it's better than you rejecting yourself. Together, we'll share what it really takes to thrive in the early years of your career without sacrificing your sanity or sleep. Listen to Let's Talk Offline on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Jess Costavetto, executive producer of the hit Netflix documentary series, Dancing for the Devil, the 7M TikTok cult. And I'm Clea Gray, former member of 7M Films

and Shekinah Church. And we're the host of the new podcast, Forgive Me For I Have Followed. Together, we'll be diving even deeper into the unbelievable stories behind 7M Films and L.A.-based Shekinah Church, an alleged cult that has impacted members for over two decades. Jessica and I will delve into the hidden truths between high-control groups and interview dancers, church members, and others whose lives and careers have been impacted, just like mine. Through powerful, in-depth interviews with former members and new, chilling firsthand accounts, Thank you. never happen again. Listen to Forgive Me For I Have Followed on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Keri Champion, and this is season four of Naked Sports, where we live at the intersection of sports and culture. Up first, I explore the making of a rivalry, Caitlin Clark versus Angel

Reese. I know I'll go down in history. People are talking about women's basketball just because of one single game. Every great player needs a foil. I ain't really hear them. Why is that? Just come here and play basketball every single day, and that's what I focus on. From college to the pros,

Clark and Reese have changed the way we consume women's sports. Angel Reese is a joy to watch. She is unapologetically black. I love her. What exactly ignited this fire? Why has it been so good for the game? And can the fanfare surrounding these two supernovas be sustained?

This game is only going to get better because the talent is getting better. This new season will cover all things sports and culture. Listen to Naked Sports on the Black Effect Podcast Network, iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. The Black Effect Podcast Network is sponsored by Diet Coke. This summer, the nation watched as the Republican nominee for president was the target of two assassination attempts separated by two months. These events were mirrored nearly 50 years ago when President Gerald Ford faced two attempts on his life in less than three

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And Seth, you were kind of talking about your overrated being history and, you know know future as an underrated like how as a futurist how do you think about the future and like you know it is interesting to think that like we have an entire class and major almost every university that is history but like nothing about the nothing really about the future i guess science would be the realm of the future and the traditional understanding of how this stuff works. But how do you think about the future and how kids should be thinking about the future, how we should be teaching people to think about the future? Well, I love that question. I mean, I love that you brought up the Mad Max example earlier in the discussion, right? There's a section in the book where I talk about the big business of dystopian filmmaking. 50 in the past 10 years that have made tens of billions of dollars all in, right?

Somehow we have gotten a little more pessimistic and we don't embrace the skills and the conversation to develop the future. So if your question's about, you know, how might young people, how might kids, how might universities, you know, it's interesting that you frame science as a possibility. I think a lot of content areas, a lot of expertise, whether it be science, I myself, I'm a designer, right? Design has a whole domain about speculative fiction, speculative futures, scenario modeling, I think we do need to invest in the skills of future crafting, articulating new models. And there are several disciplines that are in that business, if you will.

Maybe they'll think about it or talk about it that way. But I think that I love the idea of even younger people, whether it's higher ed, but even children. I mean, one of the seven narratives we focus on in the book is about youth. And youth has just this kind of the classic wide-eyed wonderment of engaging something new for the first time. And somehow our pessimism eradicates wonder from our youthful spirit. And I think it's worth making utopian work a part of our national narrative. I mean, the World's Fair is still strong and thriving, but the U.S. doesn't participate so much anymore, right? Somehow we've kind of eradicated the practice of civic imagination of the future out of our lifestyles and maybe we need to make a whole new space and

time in our lives to be in the practice of writing the future together right and i think like we look at you know the current state of our worlds and you have absurd wealth juxtaposed with horrific inequality. And we're told like, everything's okay. Line going up. The economy's doing great. And most people just on a very human level are like, no, that doesn't something feels terribly off with every single thing I look at. I'm looking at a very clear solution to a problem, yet we're told like this absurdity of an option is actually the way we get out of it when it's just so clear and we keep falling into these same patterns. And it's like as if all of these long held ideas and belief systems that sort of allowed humanity to sort of flourish to this point

are absolutely not useful. Like you're saying this, we're sort of like at this tension point where these legacy narratives aren't serving us as well. And in fact, are probably becoming the cause of a lot of dysfunction. So and because of that, you know, you're we talk about this ability to have the curiosity, right? And what do you see the current state of our ability to sort of reckon with our problems? And how does that sort of tie into the lack of curiosity or the need for radical curiosity that you advocate for? Yeah. I mean, I would say one of the kind of thesis or hypotheses that led to the book was my concern that curiosity is becoming an endangered species. And it's a big idea, right?

Curiosity is one of the core defining characteristics of what makes human beings human. And there's a concern that as I've been privileged to work in almost every sector with leading organizations, that we're really just administrating the knowledge we have, we're managing the models we know, but the inquiry to ask really essential questions about what we don't know, or to challenge what we think we know, and to, as you suggest, imagine alternatives, is like a rare unicorn that you just kind of never see in the myth and the clouds. And so in part, I wrote the book as a kind of manifesto to challenge

and call attention to how rare the art and practice of curiosity is. I would say one of the things in your question that I really like, but I would almost challenge and enjoy a little dialogue with you on is in some ways, part of that, when you say we're told the numbers are good or this is happening, and we just kind of get fed information, I think we seek solutions and we're not so comfortable not knowing, right? So it's not so much that I believe that there's just an easy or even difficult hidden answer and we just need to uncover it. Curiosity is really a lifetime practice. So, for example, I would love a senator or a president to run for office who doesn't have a health care plan.

So we put all the talking heads on stage and they say, look on my website, here's my healthcare bill. Here's my education reform bill. Why are we so obsessed with answers? Like they are static destinations and we're just choosing in a playbook the answers. I wonder if part of what we just need

is what if a leader stood up, the CEO of a corporation, the leader in government, whatever it might be, and said, follow me, I don't have the answer, but I would like to launch a process for all of us to experiment with possible solutions together.

We're obsessed with having the answer. I don't know what we have all the answers, and maybe we need some humility to admit we don't know all the answers, and we need to commit to the space and time to figure things out together. Yeah. and time to figure things out together. Yeah. Yeah.

And I think the, uh, when I, when I talk about my education and I think a lot of the blame, probably most of the blame is on my ass, like for just being like, yeah, whatever. Okay. This is what, this is what science is. This is what math is. But like one of the, and then kind of taking a step back and I, I had the opportunity to like be the editor in chief of a website that where we could really like just kind of taking a step back and I had the opportunity to like be the editor in chief of a website that where we could really like just kind of follow sort of underlying assumptions that i had made and was like sort of in the process of unlearning after my process of like being educated was like for instance in in the realm of like science and math like i think i the assumption I went in to my education with and like kind of had reinforced was like, well, science and math have figured everything out.

Like we know how everything works. I feel like, you know, that's and then the thing that got me interested in again as an adult was the idea that like just learning about all these basic things that science doesn't understand you know like instead of having it be a long story in which people are finding finding out the right answer over and over again like focusing on what just like the philosophical aspects of like quantum physics and quantum mechanics like we don't understand or you know things about human health that we don't understand you know why we sleep what sleep is why like every animal sleeps like what what what is that like why you know there's just a lot of like really interesting stuff if you look at the questions instead of the answers but i think

i think our educational system and like there's an inherent narrative impulse we have to focus on the answers and people people crave the questions actually i love that example that's great is there something i because i've also heard you know like this idea of we have to put like we're really focused on the answers right and i think is there's probably something about our humanity That's great. It sort of we're just in a pattern to just go, well, what's the answer? Rather than this might be something a lot more complex than what the fuck do we do and what's the answer? Right. And I've heard you talk about like Obamacare. Right. How was that really a bill that was about being like, well, how do we pay for this? And what's who? Where did the cuts come? And what what point did the insurance company pay for this? Who's taking a hit here? Blah, blah, blah. Or is it a larger conversation about what does it mean to be in this country? What health care even is? And what's how are we defining that? Because right now we're using a lot of wonk legislative speak to sort of talk about something that I feel like is much more is much broader and more integral to human life than something we can, you know, go through like a line by line policy argument. Absolutely. Look, I study social systems. So health is a social system. Learning is a social system. Most of business is a social system.

a social system. Most of business is a social system. We have accidentally, inadvertently, over time, made all of our systems so complicated. We don't understand them. We don't know how to make them work. We've kind of lost the plot. I think to your point, the example I give on Obamacare is what was really going on there for all of the airtime it took up, for all of the focus on that Supreme Court decision and all the anxiety that came after it. We weren't even really asking the question, what do we define health to be in our nation? What do we want a good, healthy life to look like? We were talking about who gets the invoice, who gets the bill, right? So when we talk about healthcare, often we're talking about the plumbing. We're talking about the infrastructure of how the economics move back

and forth. And I think what I'm really interested in and why I talk about questioning is it's a way to go further upstream to the real core stuff that matters and kind of peel back the layers of the onion and kind of, okay, yeah, yeah, that's adorable. Like that's the People magazine surface version. We're still just moving the chairs on Titanic. Let's get to the real stuff. Do we want to live to 100? Do we want all of our resources to pay for the last six months of our lives?

Do we want our decision to be when we live and when we die? Do we want it to be our doctors? Do we want it to be the states? There are real moral questions that we seem, to your point, I love the way you're framing it, almost afraid to really get to the courageous space of talking about the real stuff. Yeah. Right. Yeah.

I mean, like the more I just start, you know, looking at the book and your interviews and things like that, it does make I'm always sort of asking myself, OK, look, what he's saying is sort of like we need this malleability. Right. asking myself like okay look what he's saying is sort of like we need this malleability right is that we're sort of a little because of our reliance on these legacy narratives we've become very rigid so it's just like question comes in only one of two answers comes out like and there's no room for anything else and what we need to advocate for is like breaking the fuck out of that sort of very rigid paradigm and to say, well, what is what are we talking about? Because for everything we're talking about, like in the news, it's like Trump and stealing documents or student debt relief and things like that. We're avoiding these very

simple questions, which a lot of activists are the ones sort of carrying that conversation. What do human beings deserve? And what, what is our, how are we interacting with each other in terms of how we're defining these things? Yeah. And it's, yeah. And I find that sort of really fascinating that like, we're like this, this, the questions seem really simple right now, but we're completely, we're muddying them up in like the most absurd, overly complex debates. So one of the things i looked into as part of the book that has been a personal passion of mine i think it gets to one part of your framing there is the idea of awe right a w e awe like the spectacle of awe seeing the grand canyon you know seeing

a gorgeous piece of artwork and we're only really recently understanding the psychology and the science of even literally what happens in our neuroscience, our brain, when we experience awe. So the version, the kind of interpretive definition that I really latched on to was you experience awe when you encounter something that is such a vast or big idea. So sometimes the Grand Canyon, the scale brings you awe or an idea that conflicts with your previous understanding of the world. So either scale previous understanding of the world. So either scale reminds you of your scale or a concept, an idea that literally disagrees with like how your head has been programmed. And we go, whoa, that blows my mind, right? We say that colloquially, but blow your mind really means actually, it's almost like a neuroscience, literally your mind is having to

accommodate and acquire and reprint, almost like code in a computer, how to expand your mind, how to reorganize your perception of how the world is. And so awe has this fascinating way to both be a result of curiosity and spur and grow a greater sense of thirst of curiosity. And what I like about it is that, kind of like what you were saying earlier, that it's not like there's, to your point, there's like two, there's a question and there's two things that spit out on the other end. We need to kind of physiologically and through other kind of sensory experiences and put ourselves in uncomfortable context to let us experience awe and stretch our perception of the way things are. You know, we're creatures, you know, you hear that colloquial thing, oh, I'm a creature of comfort, I'm a creature of habit, right?

We're kind of on autopilot until we put ourselves in physiological, sensory, or intellectually uncomfortable, unrecognizable context. We just think we know it all, to your earlier point about math and science, Jack, right? Yeah, yeah. And I feel like that was the version of history that also turned me off to history was, well, we know the story and this is the story.

And, you know, there's we've been talking in recent episodes about the opportunity to discover new ways of living and experiencing human existence through like non-Western histories that like we haven't explored or begun teaching in high school or core college curricula like that that stuff could fill libraries and there's just this assumption that no this is the only one that we need to know. And I think there's opportunities there for sure. But I think the chasing awe is a good motivating sort of thesis of just like to chase the awe

is you're always going to be moving in the right direction, right? And I'm curious, Seth, like what do you see out there now? Or maybe there's examples in your book that you'd want to talk about of how you're seeing sort of what you're advocating for actually being put into practice and what those outcomes look like. Because I think right now we've had a very sort of much more like sort of 10,000 foot view of this. But if you drill down and zoom in a little bit, how do you see this sort of adoption of radical curiosity taking shape? Well, I think it's hard not to acknowledge the arrival and the impact of the pandemic as a part of that question.

I do think that for as terrible as the pandemic was and how many people passed and got sick because of it, people in my family including, one of the long-term positive legacies is when you go through an existential crisis like a pandemic, you have to ask those big questions those hundred thousand foot questions right like when you can't go to work you begin to question what work is when you can't enable your kids to be at school you have to question what school is so finally by constraint we are confronted by what did i think these models were and what were they not? And I think to answer your question, just as that's like a little context setting, I do think that the businesses of the past are not going to survive. I think we're still healing from the pandemic.

I think there's a lot of repair that's going to need to happen. And I think I'm rooting for a genre of social entrepreneurs that maybe have been kind of pushed aside and they're like, oh, that's cute. That's activism. That's citizenship. That's some other thing. But, you know, I think we need to, like, stop, like, making the 913,000th app of the year, of the month, of the week. Swipe left for more bullshit, please. It's like, you know what? I'd like someone to work on water and on food. And I think, you know, to your question, Miles, I think I started with nutrition because I'm really starting to get interested in food. I think there's a lot of legacy narratives getting shaken to the core.

I look at vertical farming. I look at the problems with soil and what nutrients were accidentally eradicating by farming at scale. I look at seeds that are never coming back. I'm looking at indigenous wisdom that is not being honored and is suddenly being brought into the mainstream. I just think there's such, it's almost like we're kind of back to the basics. Like, I don't think it's, I don't know if you've heard this phrase, like, it's not the great resignation, it's the great simplification. I think we kind of just need to say like, how do we do like, you know, wake up in the morning shit again. You mentioned sleep, like, you know, there's a lot of ways to deal with sleep, different parts of the world. You mentioned sleep.

Like, you know, there's a lot of ways to deal with sleep. Different parts of the world. Sleep is managed very differently. Like, I think we're kind of ready to get back to those human things. And so it's not so much. I don't want to name. I love your question. I don't want to name like this brand or this person. But I mean, I could certainly go there.

I think there are a lot of pioneers who are just really shaking things up that the domains that they're shaking are things we thought we were done with. Like, no, we don't know how to feed people at scale, actually, not in a healthy way, not in a sustainable way. So, you know, I'm rooting for those guys. So, you know, I'm rooting for those guys. Nice. Seth, thank you again so much for joining us on the show. It's been a really fantastic conversation. I would love if you could just leave us one bit of feeling of optimism, because as you talk about, you say the future can be so filled with different possibility and positivity. And just if you could leave us with a sentiment from your perspective on what that, what that is or hands on the button to redesign everything. And how fun is that, right? I mean, we have in our pockets entire Hollywood film studios that used to take up a thousand acres.

We have more tools, more technology, more everything than we ever had. It's just in our hands to decide what we want to point those towards. And I don't see that as a bummer. I don't see that as heavy. I see that as worth waking up in the morning for. We have more authority to write the story of what comes next than ever. And so it's just deciding, what are you going to ask? Well, Seth, I know you have to leave, but it's been great having you. Thanks for joining us. Absolutely. Thanks for having me. Where can people find you, follow you, find out more about what you're doing? Yeah. Thanks for that. I appreciate the dialogue. I love you guys' honesty and directness. So it's refreshing. Yeah,

the studio and the book can be found on Curiosity and Company. It's curiosityand.company. So Curiosity and Co. is really the name of my portfolio of businesses that are experimenting with questioning in all different domains. So it's a good place to find us and connect and cause some trouble. Nice. Is there a work of media or social media you've been enjoying? A work of media. It's not going to be anything that is about a fiction of Hunter Biden by Breitbart News. It's not going to be that. All right. I mean i i think it looks pretty cool but you know you're entitled to your opinion riveting stuff man i can't believe that guy all right seth goldenberg thanks for joining us miles and i are going to take a quick break and we'll be back to uh wrap things out i'm jess casavetto executive producer of the hit Netflix documentary series,

Dancing for the Devil, the 7M TikTok cult. And I'm Clea Gray, former member of 7M Films and Shekinah Church. And we're the host of the new podcast, Forgive Me For I Have Followed. Together, we'll be diving even deeper into the unbelievable stories behind 7M Films and LA-based Shekinah Church, an alleged cult that has impacted members for over two decades. Jessica and I will delve into the hidden truths between high-control groups and interview dancers, church members, and others whose lives and careers have been impacted, just like mine. Through powerful, in-depth interviews with former members and new,

chilling firsthand accounts, the series will illuminate untold and extremely necessary perspectives. Forgive Me For I Have Followed will be more than an exploration. It's a vital revelation aimed at ensuring these types of abuses never happen again. Listen to Forgive Me For I Have Followed on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Hey, I'm Gianna Pradente. And I'm Jemay Jackson-Gadsden. We're the hosts of Let's Talk Offline, a new podcast from LinkedIn News and iHeart Podcasts. When you're just starting out in your career, you have a lot of questions, like how do I speak up when I'm feeling overwhelmed? Or can I negotiate a higher salary

if this is my first real job? Girl, yes. Each week, we answer your unfiltered work questions. Think of us as your work besties you can turn to for advice. And if we don't know the answer, we bring in experts who do, like resume specialist Morgan Saner. The only difference between the person who doesn't get the job and the person who gets the job is usually who applies. Yeah, I think a lot about that quote. What is it like you miss 100% of the shots you never take? Yeah, rejection is scary, but it's better than you rejecting yourself.

Together, we'll share what it really takes to thrive in the early years of your career without sacrificing your sanity or sleep. Listen to Let's Talk Offline on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Keri Champion, and this is season four of Naked Sports, where we live at the intersection of sports and culture. Up first, I explore the making of a rivalry, Kaitlyn Clark versus Angel Reese. I know I'll go down in history.

People are talking about women's basketball just because of one single game. Every great player needs a foil. I ain't really near them boys. I just come here to play basketball every single day, and that's what I focus on. People are talking about women's basketball just because of one single game. Every great player needs a foil. I ain't really in here. I just come here to play basketball every single day, and that's what I focus on. From college to the pros, Clark and Reese have changed the way we consume women's sports. Angel Reese is a joy to watch. She is unapologetically black.

I love her. What exactly ignited this fire? Why has it been so good for the game? And can the fanfare surrounding these two supernovas be sustained? This game is only going to get better because the talent is getting better. This new season will cover all things sports and culture. Listen to Naked Sports on the Black Effect Podcast Network, iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. The Black Effect Podcast Network is sponsored by Diet Coke. This summer, the nation watched as the Republican nominee for president was the target of

two assassination attempts separated by two months. These events were mirrored nearly 50 years ago when President Gerald Ford faced two attempts on his life in less than three weeks. President Gerald R. Ford came stunningly close to being the victim of an assassin today. And these are the only two times we know of that a woman has tried to assassinate a U.S. president. One was the protege of infamous cult leader Charles Manson. I always felt like Lynette was kind of his right-hand woman. The other, a middle-aged housewife working undercover for the FBI in a violent revolutionary underground. Identified by police as Sarah Jean Moore. The story of one strange and violent summer.

This is Rip Current. Available now with new episodes every Thursday. Listen on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. And we're back. And yeah, that was a very interesting conversation. If people want to check out more, you can find Seth's book wherever fine books are sold. But yeah, man. I mean, that's radical curiosity.

I feel like this kid's on to something. It's a double-edged sword, you know, because sometimes you think of really cool stuff and then other times you could be Donald Trump and just make up whole new realities. Well, that was one thing that like when he was talking about the how close we are between like all of the information like the flattening of information it's like yeah but like i i really think a big part of the problem that we have with our ability to like think freely and use our access to information and the flatness of you know information and ability to just like share thoughts is like that, that has been used to, you know, it's been weaponized to like make fascism popular again. So it's people have an instinctive sort of aversion to the idea of like being creative and questioning notions because

we're like, news is real, democracy dies in the dark. That was me as Kevin citing the New York Times. Kevin from The Office. Oh, wow. Shout out Brian Baumgartner. Yeah, that was Brian Baumgartner. We should have him on, but ask him only to do Kevin Malone.

We're joined by Kevin Malone today. Legally, he can't. I've asked him before. So the front page of Drudgeudge the only page of drudge drudge report has like a big headline that's like donald trump the don calls for an uprising the fbi which doesn't quite seem that dramatic but it seems like he he he might former president donald trump might be going through something. What's the latest there? Look, we've been checking in on the Mar-a-Lago Sweatfest. We like

seeing the moments where they're trying to play it cool but clearly sweating through their suits. But now, I mean, I think we're, change your name to Antonio Banderas because you are desperados. You are very desperate right now. I don't even know if that's the same word in Spanishanish but i'm calling you only which also might be true because yes

thank you fewer people who have legal degrees are backing them up see i'm sorry i'm using desperate like a 90s middle school bully would right calling somebody desperate that's what's happening but truly i the this is now i think we're about to start to see then the fucking weird shit go down because it's clear now that the back is getting closer to the wall and the explanations and things are getting less elegant or even make sense you know ever since that affidavit came out that was redacted, it just became a lot harder to just sort of try and spin away. Like, like having documents that merely having them is a crime. Like, yeah, if you have them, it doesn't even fucking matter.

Like, you shouldn't have them. That's a fuck. You're these are the statutes that have been violated. A lot of people like, yeah, like you can't really. I don't understand all the classification shit, but like I did, I did think it was instructive that everybody on that side got real quiet. Once, once the thing was declassified.

Yeah. And you had more people just kind of be like, yeah, I, uh, I definitely, I would not take those documents home with me. Uh, but yeah, I mean, it it's it's a it's like roy

blunt i think was the latest senator to be like yeah that would not be me and you know the legal team has had trouble like that even a trump appointed judge was like bro you did not submit like anything that like resembled a legal filing like can you go back and do that shit like like i can't even do this for y'all so it is getting a little wacky uh lindsey graham meanwhile his words have been amplified across the internet and media because he basically came out and with all just chest out all caps basically being like if trump is indicted there will be riots in the streets and you're like oh that's not a legal strategy sounds like a really sloppy thread okay and then trump went a step further on pay less twitter to say his thing this man went full make a wish foundation on us with his like blue sky treatment

of what the future should be because he is facing a possible indictment. This is from Payless Twitter. At Real Donald Trump said, quote, So now it comes out conclusively that the FBI buried the Hunter Biden laptop story before the election, knowing that if they didn't, quote, Trump would have easily won the 2020 presidential election. What he's talking about, he's referencing zuck's appearance on joe rogan where he talked about how intelligence was like telling facebook like hey man watch out for that misinformation bro don't be just fucking pushing that shit out and because he considered that and was like yeah well we didn't think it was going to be a good look he's basically saying

like look what they did to me uh and also pointing to this very convenient concept or idea that people believe, which is like, if they heard about the laptop, Trump would have won in a landslide. That's what actually happened. It wasn't actually stolen. Now, the new explanation is the Hunter Biden story got buried. That's why Trump lost. So I'll continue his rant. His solution is, quote, this is massive fraud and election interference at a level never seen before in our country remedy colon declare the declare the rightful winner or and this would be the minimal solution declare the 2020 election irreparably compromised and have a new election immediately hell yeah all right bro all right bro all bro. Uh-huh. Declare the... My man said,

say I'm the fucking president or we need to have a do-over election right meow. I do recognize my own feelings when I was in my Russiagate bag and being like, well, they should do a do-over because they cheated. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And that's just not how it works. feelings when i was in my russia gate bag and being like well they should do a do-over because they cheated yeah yeah yeah and that's just not how it works unfortunately uh it is much more fun

to be on this side of the uh bet shittery yeah well this one is definitely like a this guy's trying to be like yo i didn I didn't commit crimes. Call me the president now. What? That's literally like the most if you distill this down, this is such a fucking weird, weird moment. And it goes along with more reporting from the Trump whisperer, Maggie Haberman, who is talking about just how some of these documents were like schlepped around when he was in office. This quote boxes of boxes of documents even came with Trump on foreign travel, following him to hotel rooms around the world, including countries considered foreign adversaries in the United States. Quote, there was no rhyme or reason. It was classified documents on top of newspapers, on top of papers, people printed out of things

they wanted him to read. The boxes were never organized, Stephanie Grisham said. Quote, he'd want to get work done on long trips, so he just rummaged through the boxes. That was our filing system. Wow. Man, I thought I would be sloppy as a politician, but this dude is really...

Wait, where's the box? Where's the box with this stuff? Papers. Okay, what's in here? Nope's the box with this stuff? In my box. Papers overflowing from the top. Okay, what's this? Nope, that's a bill. What's this? Okay, this is a cable from an intercepted.

Nope, that's another bill. Give me the other box immediately. What did he think he was doing? Like he just like just the the proximity, like the fetishization of important president, like important presidential documents was such that he he just thought a box full of random documents would be like he could just reach in there and be doing official presidential business. Is that kind of I think or it's just like his safety blanket, like to know, like if she ever goes down, I got that thing on me. Right. Which maybe it's like if I'm if I got the docs, then I can maybe flip them abroad if I need to to do whatever. I don't know. It's really hard to to see into his mind. white supremacy and his privilege has completely destroyed his sense of reality and what is or is not how to how to act in a situation like this they also wrote that like people at doj are like the like the attorneys at doj are like he's talking to merrick garland like he's just some political foe rather than like the attorney general. And like, he's also like,

they're like, you're using tactics that just do not apply in this context. They may have worked when you were in office, but surely like now you're, you're just, you're just Donald with the loose papers. Donald with the loose papers. I mean, yeah,

it's he, he's been an escape artist who uses those tools of white supremacy and privilege and you know america's hidden class system to get out of you know trouble over and over and over and over again and lie and you know use those lies to perpetuate his career yeah so who knows i mean he he used to he at any time he somebody threatens to tell the truth about him he threatens the lawyers with like lawsuits and stuff that always scare lawyers because they're they're a flighty bunch they're yeah not working so well now i don't't know. I mean, this motherfucker could skate anyway, so don't hold your breath folks.

I mean, the riots have prosecuted thing like that does seem to be the, like that. That's what I've heard. Lots of places. And I was just from Lindsey Graham of like, well, this is why you never,

you can't like prosecute a former president because then you become like not america or something or something above that just like that hey i'm no lord of the rings i'm no sauron fan right but like i'm not worried about what's our the reaction that people are you throw the ring of power in the fucking mad uh-huh uh-huh uh-huh but yeah i mean this is like everything like even like those psychologists who study extremism and stuff and like uh gangs and things are like you have to show that there are consequences or the thinking goes even further spirals further and further and further can't just keep being like well america american exceptionalism prevents us from prosecuting a former president. It's like, well, the former president is doing crimes openly. So at this point.

And if that's the cheat shit, then I'm running for office in 2024. I'll show you all some fucking lack of moral scruples. Not for that reason, but. I'm the new King Ralph of America. All right. Well, that's been an episode. Yes. That guest has already left us, but I have not asked you where people can find you, follow you, and what's a tweet that you've been enjoying.

You honor me. Yo, Jack Horseman. You can find me on Twitter and Instagram at Miles of Grey. Also, check out Miles and Jack got mad boosties. The fucking NBA season draws closer and closer. We're, we're feeling optimistic, cynical,

best, everything all at once. It's a fantastic time. Also come check me out on four 20 day fiance. Also, if you like reality TV, some tweets that I like. First one is from at Blair Saki.

And it's at Blair Saki. She just tweeted every single time with a single teardrop cry emoji. And it's like her in a dating app. And someone just, this dude's messaging her. First message from this guy is stand up. Blair responds. Yes.

The guy responds. That's awesome. Everyone tells me I should do stand up i winged an open mic night one time and almost got attacked by the woke mob and then like the three dots in typing progress things below it it's like oh no no nope nope nope nope nope nope nope i winged one i'm pretty funny actually uh it's just a woke mob yeah oh jesus and then uh at young titty tweeted okay i'll bite what's a warrant for my arrest uh yeah a lot of that isn't going around right now also shout out lacey mosley uh anna posted a picture of her doing a keynote uh showing some love all love to lacey

always good to see her growing and also oh shout out to nile holden on twitter who sent me that tweet about the john spartan like cryogenically frozen figure from planet hollywood ended up in an estate sale in the australian outback oh would have loved to see that terror like that yeah it's it's the nude sylvester Stallone in ice from Demolition Man. And it is, but like up close, it appears to be melting. It's very lifelike, but also, you know, real uncanny valley shit. Yeah, like he's like tied to a hand truck, like a weird S&M torture device or something. It's very odd. Anyway, shout out to y'all for knowing my interest in treating them at me which is demolition man a couple tweets sarah york tweeted i love how

barista is the job conservatives bring up as a lazy slacker job when one shift at a moderately busy starbucks would have them crouched between stacks of milk crates sobbing in the back room the janagee tweeted has it occurred to thomas that he might be the problem and it's this picture of like a section at a bookstore and all the books so it's this guy thomas erickson is the author surrounded by setbacks next book thomas erickson surrounded by narcissists or how to stop other people's egos from ruining your life next book surrounded by psychopaths how to protect yourself from being manipulated and exploited in business and life thomas erickson and then finally by thomas erickson surrounded by idiots the four types of

human behavior or how to understand those who cannot be understood so yeah maybe thomas needs to look within. And then finally, Noah Garfinkel tweeted, I wish room temperature water was as cold as room temperature coffee. You can find me on Twitter at Jack underscore O'Brien. You can find us on Twitter at Daily Zeitgeist. We're at The Daily Zeitgeist on Instagram. We have a Facebook fan page and a website, dailyzeitgeist.com,

where we post our episodes and our footnotes, where we link off the information that we talked about in today's episode, as well as a song that we think you might enjoy. Miles, what song do we think people might enjoy? I was listening to Sumo Hair, who is an Afro-Mexican artist from Guerrero, Mexico, but then grew up in Long Beach. He passed away tragically earlier this summer i had no idea and i was listening to his album tropical gold but this is a track from that album por el suelo which is i mean his his he's just very dancey sort of like

sample based uh like music using like sampled like afro-indigenous swing singing or percussion and things like that it's got really good like texture and heart to it i mean like a really just inelegant way to compare his music is like if moby had some swag to him a little bit and was like sampling other shit i only say that because you're kind of like mixing electronic with like really good samples and things like that but this is sumo hair with poor el suelo i don't know what you're talking about moby has the most swag of anyone find a new angle find a new angle the daily zeitgeist is a production of iheart radio for more podcasts from iheart radio visit the iheart radio app apple podcast or wherever you listen to your favorite shows that's going to do it for us this morning.

Back this afternoon to tell you what's trending. And we will talk to you all then. Bye. Bye. Hey, I'm Gianna Pradenti. And I'm Jermaine Jackson-Gadson. We're the hosts of Let's Talk Offline from LinkedIn News and iHeart Podcasts. There's a lot to figure out when you're just starting your career.

That's where we come in. Think of us as your work besties you can turn to for advice. And if we don't know the answer, we bring in people who do, like negotiation expert Maury Tahiripour. If you start thinking about negotiations as just a conversation, then I think it sort of eases us a little bit. Listen to Let's Talk Offline on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

I'm Jess Casavetto, executive producer of the hit Netflix documentary series app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. we'll be diving even deeper into the unbelievable stories behind 7M Films and Shekinah Church. Listen to Forgive Me For I Have Followed on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Keri Champion, and this is Season 4 of Naked Sports. Up first, I explore the making of a rivalry. Kaitlyn Clark versus Angel Reese. People are talking about women's basketball just because of one single game.

Clark and Reese have changed the way we consume women's basketball. And on this new season, we'll cover all things sports and culture. Listen to Naked Sports

on the Black Effect Podcast Network, iHeart Radio apps, or wherever you get your podcasts. The Black Effect Podcast Network is sponsored by

Diet Coke. I'm Keri Champion, and this is Season 4 of Naked Sports. Up first, I explore the making of a rivalry. Kaitlyn Clark versus Angel Reese. Every great player needs a foil. I know I'll go down in history. People are talking about women's basketball just because of one single game. Clark and Reese have changed the way we consume women's sports.

Listen to the making of a rivalry. Kaitlyn Clark versus Angel Reese on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Presented by Capital One, founding partner of iHeart Women's Sports.