The Daily Zeitgeist - Weekly Zeitgeist 268 (Best of 3/27/23-3/31/23)

Episode Date: April 2, 2023

The weekly round-up of the best moment from DZ's season 281 (3/27/23-3/31/23)See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Kay hasn't heard from her sister in seven years. I have a proposal for you. Come up here and document my project. All you need to do is record everything like you always do. What was that? That was live audio of a woman's nightmare. Can Kay trust her sister or is history repeating itself? There's nothing dangerous about what you're doing.

They're just dreams. Dream Sequence is a new horror thriller from Blumhouse Television, iHeartRadio, and Realm. Listen to Dream Sequence on the iHeartRadio iheart radio app apple podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts hi i am lacy lamar and i'm also lacy lamar just kidding i'm amber revan okay everybody we have exciting news to share we're back with season two of the amber and lacy lacy and amber show on will ferrell's big money players Network. This season, we make new friends, deep dive into my steamy DMs, answer your listener questions and more. The more is punch each other. Listen to the Amber and Lacey, Lacey and Amber show on Will Ferrell's Big Money Players Network on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. Just listen,

okay? Or Lacey gets it. Do it. Captain's Log, Stardate 2024. We're floating somewhere in the cosmos, but we've lost our map. Yeah, because you refused to ask for directions. It's Space Gem, there are no roads. Good point.

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and welcome to this episode of the weekly zeitgeist uh these are some of our favorite segments from this week all edited together into one uh non-stop infotainment laugh extravaganza uh yeah so without further ado here is the weekly zeitgeist. Well, speaking of oh shit, you guys, it's a banger. Just miles a second episode back, but we thought he was ready. We had to do it to him. We had to do it to them. We're thrilled to be joined by the cold brew Kraken as producer Justin. You know, as we were letting him into the chat he was like unleash unleash the kraken unleash the cold brew kraken mr cold brew got me like the advice king the poetry window

was open because it's chris motherfucking crofton hey what's up what's up thank you so much jack thank you for uh that that's like you know when you see a stand-up and they play Enter Sandman or something. They're coming on stage and then it goes away and everybody's like, oh, yeah, it's a comedy show. It is that. There is that moment. I know exactly what you're talking about. Where the song comes on, you feel like you're at a baseball game

because you're like, oh, here comes the band. Oh, yeah. And then the music fades down. You're like, all right, y'all, how are you guys doing tonight? How are you guys doing tonight? All right. You guys on some dates tonight? And you're like, what do you do, sir? Yeah. What do you do, sir? What about you, long hair? What's up with the Grateful Dead in town? Come on. Come on. Hey, am I right? Come on. Like he was going hard with that ACDC That's how it felt That was such a good reduction That was an incredible

Fucking rap By Miles there I felt like I was at a show Yeah All I can talk about now is feces And breast milk I wanted that show to go on. I wanted to hear the rest of that song.

Yeah. Oh man. That was, I was actually opening for another comedian. That's what that song was going to go into. Chris Croft to come to the stage. Yeah. Hey guys.

You sick of Republicans or what? You're dancing to ludicrous is roll out. Roll out. I feel like they don't got a brain in their head you guys heard about mitch mcconnell yeah god damn it that song was better put back on it's like a lizard he like gets the thing wrong instead of turtle he goes he doesn't even have the uh he's like an iguana huh oh? Oh, man. I wish we were listening to Informer still. Yeah. Ladies and gentlemen, Chris Croft at Informer. Oh, you know this again.

I didn't know. I didn't know. Oh, man. This is going to rule. So I grew up in Connecticut. You guys ever been to Connecticut? Nobody. Nobody.

You heard of the Vanderbilt Press? Okay. First of all, you can get my book at a website. Hold on. I have written down. No plug the book after the set. Plug it after the set.

W W W. Hold on a second. Open up with some plugs. I'm going to open with some plugs real quick. What else do I have? What else do I have? What else do I have? That's a good opener First words

Or what else? First word, what else? That's a strong He went with a first word, what else? He went a what else opener Flashbacks to 2014 Los Angeles Me showing up, age 40 Fucking God damn even a what else open flashbacks to 2014 los angeles me showing up age 40 fucking god damn

and uh age 40 fucking god damn and uh you know just entering you know nashville legend showing up to yeah start all over and open mics in los angeles at age 45 and i'm like no one's what is everybody treating me like such a weirdo for you for why are these 22 year olds fucking being such dicks like they're god i can't believe why are these 22 years old i must have looked to them you know how old a 45 year old is when you're 22 oh yeah it's like being dead or 100 although Although I remember when I was 22, everyone over the age of 30 seemed like the same amount of old. Oh, yeah. It was like 30 to 60 was just old. And I remember like I remember doing drugs with someone that was in their 40s and I couldn't believe that they did. Like I was like, yo, you party. I'm like, you're 40, though.

They're like, yeah, dude, I'm my life's been fucked up for longer than you've been alive. And I was like, oh, OK, though. They're like, yeah, dude, my life's been fucked up for longer than you've been alive. And I was like, oh, OK, cool. Oh, no. Real dark on it. Real grizzled. I was like, all right. You're still doing drugs with 20 year olds in your 40s. It's coming from a dark place.

Yeah. Yeah. It's been fucked up since before you were shitting in diapers, kid. Oh, yeah. I was doing that. I was doing that in 2011. There you go. Then I got my shit together and went straight to open mics.

There it is. There you go. I got to ask you, Doug, what is something from your search history that's, you know, revealing about, reveals something about what you're into right now? If you looked at my search history, it would basically be things like pain, top of foot, hip muscle pain. I'm a big runner. I run a couple of marathons, but I'm also old. I'm going to be 50 next year.

And so any run that I come back from usually results in a search of like, what was that? Basically. Yeah. Are you one of those runners or like the first mile and a half, you got to just blow all the paint out of your legs and then you settle in or you can't like every time i run the first mile is apps it's like my body like i feel like that scene in forrest gump when his leg braces are breaking off that's how i would say the first two or three miles of any race that i do any run that i do is just like the warm-up which is a real problem if you're doing like a 5k because that's basically three miles.

But yeah, that's pretty much me. Okay, got it. And then wait, what's the top of the foot pain? Oh man, like, you know. Your metatarsals acting up? Yeah, you know your stuff. Metatarsal, you know, all that kind of stuff. And then bottom of the foot,

plantar fasciitis, all that stuff. You should see my apartment. What, are you heel striking? What's your form like? You heel striking? Can we get some slow motion video? I heel strike a little bit too much. Yeah, a little bit too much. Okay, okay. Yeah, my apartment's like's your form like? You heal striking? Can we get some slow motion video? I heal strike a little bit too much. Yeah. A little bit too much. Okay. Okay. Yeah. My apartment's like a physical therapist office. I've got like the foam pads, the TheraBands and

the wobble boards and all of that stuff. So I'm constantly trying to like figure, you know, one thing breaks, you fix it. And then the next thing breaks. Like I'm like an old car, basically. Yeah. Yeah. I got some hip flexor pain i'm trying to get basically yeah we're sitting too much too that's the big problem yeah exactly exactly andrew you have i know you're a physical specimen so you probably oh no i i actually can't run i've had two knee surgeries really yeah i've had two knee surgeries but between the one and two and i'm sure that led to number two. I like wouldn't stop kickboxing. Like, well, was it great?

Probably like, man, your patella can't handle anymore. These kicks. It really was not, not ideal. And wrestling too, or just like,

why are we doing? I shouldn't. So I'm bad. I'm just like, uh, at least earlier in my life, I was like, I'll just get new knees.

Just run down to the store. Yeah. Pick up a spare set of gloves and yeah yeah by the way not wise advice for anyone listening to this who still has good knees i know man i i fucked my knee up terribly at a when i when i worked at playboy there was a staff party at the mansion that they would have every year and there's like a hill at the Playboy mansion. This is, look, I know it's a terrible fucking place to work. Trust me. I worked there with Jamie Loftus. We were there at the same time. It was kind of a crazy situation.

But they set up this slip and slide that's on a very steep hill. And I went down this thing full speed. And when I hit the fucking backstop of it, I almost hyper- shit because like it was so the speed I hit it was so intense. And I for a second, like I went to a doctor and they're like, you know, you you may need surgery because I was playing a lot of soccer at the time. Like if you want to do that, like and kind of recover. And I was like, well, what happens if I don't? He's like, you could try and let it heal. It's like not so bad that you couldn't just like stay off it and see what happens.

And I opted for staying off it. And I've stayed off it for many years now to the point where I'm like, maybe I need to get this shit going again. Yeah. Let's move on to our next question. What is something you think is overrated? College degrees. Okay, go on. So I didn't graduate from high school. I didn't go to college. And I'm not bragging about that. But, you know, I had, well, and I wrote about this in my book. I lied about it all the time in order to get jobs. I said I was George Santos, basically, like I said.

Fake it till you make it. Fake it till you make it. I padded my resume because i wouldn't have gotten the job without it but i was without that on paper qualification i was still qualified to do the job i had the experience i understood how to do it i'm a quick learner like i educated myself about the position before i got it and then went all in and and i did really well so i don't think i needed that piece of paper in order to do the job, but there's this consensus that we do need that. And a lot of people in my family that are successful

don't have college degrees. And I'm not discouraging anyone from getting it, but I do think they're overrated. Yeah. Well, I think there's just like this disconnect too, where there's this emphasis about having it yet it's so hard to attain or in a way that doesn't potentially fuck you up for decades to come yeah yeah yeah i get that it's like that so many people now like i was just talking to somebody i was watching like the final four tournament and i was like i was like i almost went to the like my like almost went to university of miami because like i got in in my mind i was like yo i'm gonna fucking party in miami for college then i saw what it costs and i'm like i'm gonna keep my ass in the fucking state

because i do i absolutely couldn't especially when i saw my other friends taking on loans and like what the payback sort of structure looked like i was frightened to the point where i was almost like i know i want to get into comedy and shit, but yeah, like my grandparents and my parents voice rang in my head. They're like, look, if you could go for it and if you fuck up, at least you could teach history. Cause you have that degree.

And I'm like, that was, and I would do that if things shook out a different way. So I kind of, I see that. Yeah. It's so, cause it's like nominally,

it's supposed to be like proof that you did something or you accomplish something or at a level, but like, because of the way the world works, there's so much variance and what that fucking piece of paper means like i feel like like i did unfortunately go to like a nice college and like truly the only thing i learned from that college that i find was valuable was that um rich kids are not only not better than you they are actively worse than you. They are the dumbest people on earth.

And we all have the same piece of paper at the end of the day. Right. That's hilarious. I just like to, like, I always think about when, you know, you have a resume or whatever and they ask for like your education.

You're like, how many times has anyone ever actually bothered to check up on that? Unless like you came in and they, like, you were so flagrant with it. They're like, there's no way this person has like a master's from whatever college. But other than that, like to your point, I'm like, yeah, just fake it till you make it. You know, I don't even know where my diploma is. Oh, I didn't even get one. Yeah. I didn't go. I didn't even walk. Yeah. No, I was so i was so old man i look i was so over academia because part of me was like what like i was already becoming like this cynical person

about like what a degree meant and i'm like but and then i had like survivors going like how come i can get a degree but these other kids can't get a degree and then they gotta do this and then they go up in the job like and then we're all going up in the same job interview where you like you need 17 years of experience for this job and you're like i'm 17 though yeah uh you know and it's just like yes so anyway all that to say is when my it was it's ucla so it was hot in la in the summer like beginning and it was all going to be outdoors and i asked my parents so i was like you want to wait out there like to be outdoors. And I asked my parents, I was like, you want to wait out there, like to be called amongst hundreds of names. And they're like, if you don't care,

we don't care. And I'm like, I don't care, man. If you want it, we can buy the diploma, but that's more money. And I would rather just stop giving this UC system.

My mom. So I can walk. Yeah. That way I could walk head first in 2007 into a recession with my degree. Hey, I got this degree to enter the middle. Well, what the fuck is happening?

Um, which is, yeah, it's very, I talk about this a lot with other millennials about how like, especially like there's so many people who get so down, like, because everything is so difficult to attain right now for younger people.

And we're fed this thing of like, well, you should be doing this by now without understanding like how uniquely of a shitty situation we came of age in where it was almost like oh yeah like i was standing on the rug as it was getting yanked out uh what's something you think is underrated things being overrated go on what kind of things i've never come on here and not done one that was just like food that i just thought of right because i started to think i was like i'll do that but i was like no i already did that i think i already said like fried onion strings are underrated or whatever wait what oh as like a side dish yeah i was gonna do going to do like fries. I was going to do like fries are overrated, onion rings are underrated.

But then I was like, I think I already said that on here. And also fries are not overrated. That's like a lie. I would just be saying it. You're just saying, right, right. You're just saying we got to give some more attention to the onion ring. Yeah, like onion rings are underrated, but fries are rated correctly. Onion rings or onion strings?

Well, both. Like all fried onions. I had some really fucking good fried onions the other day at this place, Ototo in Echo Park. Ototo, is it a Japanese place? Yeah, a Japanese place. Yeah, that makes sense.

I got fried onions there and they were like spring onions and they were tempura spring onions and just like a plate of like onion spears, basically, just like flash fried and they were so fucking good and it was also what I wanted it to be,

which was like a slightly high-end bloomin' onion. Yeah, that's what I was going to say. It just tasted like a bloomin' onion, but like a little delicate bloomin' Onion. Yeah, that's what I was going to say. It just tasted like a Bloomin' Onion, but a little delicate Bloomin' Onion. It's so good. It's funny because Ototo is also a Japanese cracker that I loved as a

kid that was whale and nautical-shaped. But I like that. But it's also something you'd say if you're like, whoops, or something's about to fall. Ototo is kind of how you deploy that phrase. Dope. But anyway doh, doh. Like, it's kind of how you deploy that. Yeah. That phrase.

Dope. But anyway, man, I love onion strings. I'm going to just say that. I love onion strings. If I did a good onion string. Sometimes they're rings. Like, when they're just like the frozen kind. They're too thick sometimes. The ratio, the batter to the onion.

The batter can be a little bit fucked up. It's too much. It hurts my stomach. Like, too much batter. Okay. Well, good to know. I will make sure. That's why we need tempura battered everything.

The tempura, it was light. It was crispy. It was perfect. I love tempura veggies. You gotta fuck with it. Yeah. I mean, look, we can eat anything if it's deep fried. I believe in ourselves as a species.

All right. Let's take a quick break, and we're going gonna be right back to talk about the news after this. I'm Renee Stubbs and I'm obsessed with sports, especially tennis. On the Renee Stubbs Tennis Podcast, I get the chance to do what I love, talk about how tennis and other women's sports are growing and changing and what the future holds. I think I just genuinely loved what I did. I love this waking up, putting on my sports gear. I still believe it was so rewarding. Maybe you can relate to it as well. As a woman, I think it's a very powerful feeling to have a job at which you're able to see improvements in real time. On the show, we dissect everything going on in the game straight from the biggest players in the

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This wasn't just a new game. Atari promised $150,000 in prizes to four finalists. But the prizes disappeared. four finalists. But the prizes disappeared. And what started as a video game promotion became one of the most controversial moments in 80s pop culture. I just don't believe they exist. That would be my reaction, shock and awe. That sword was amazing. It was so beautiful. I'm Jamie Loftus. Join me this spring for The Legend of Sword Quest,

a podcast about the fall of Atari and the disappearing Sword Quest prizes. We'll follow the quest for lost treasure across four decades. It's almost like a metaphor for the industry and Atari itself in a way. Listen to The Legend of Sword Quest on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,

or wherever you get your podcasts. And we're back. And just wanted to continue on something that Andrew brought up yesterday when we were talking about Representative Tim Burkett or Burchett from Tennessee, who was asked a very direct question about, you know, school shootings and what Congress's role in it, which he said, I don't really think we have a role at all. And then more importantly, when, you know, this journalist was like, well, you're clearly acknowledging the danger. How do you think we protect people like your daughter you just mentioned? And this was his answer. What should be done to protect people like your little girl from being safe at school? Well, we homeschool her. But, you know, that's our decision. Some people don't have that option. And frankly, some people don't need to do it. I mean, they don't have to. It just suited our needs much better. So this has brought on a lot of conversation around homeschooling because this is like this, it's becoming a very, it's like, this is like the new response from the GOP rather than gun

control. It was either like, it's a mental health crisis, but we're not going to fund it. Or it's, yeah, maybe that's why you shouldn't be in fucking schools. And a lot of people, like I said, we're like, to your point, Andrew, you're like, this is, this is, this is all like, that was the perfect answer for the GOP. Because a you're being like, I'm offering a terrible solution. That's actually privatization. Yeah. And yeah, I think a lot of people were just sort of like this is just an absolute absurdity because when you're talking about school shooting and the and the answer is to protect them with homeschooling that's again like he said not a possibility for everyone and also not a fucking solution uh to the problem it's bad for it is

like a little look i know that when they're, don't politicize the school shooting, it's like just a talking point and it's bullshit. But it is a little, like, amazing how effortlessly he pivoted from this tragedy to just a different talking point. Yeah. Like politicizing it in a admittedly unique but perfect for these scumbags way. It's like, you know. Yeah. I guess he stayed on message. Yeah. Like, okay. So after you've all day last year, multiple conservative and right wing, like far right

publications were putting out op eds that were like, man, like extolling the virtues of homeschooling. They're like, this is the real practical fix for school shootings. One headline was homeschooling surges as parents seek escape from shootings violence. Another one said tragedies like the Texas shooting make a somber case for homeschooling. And in that it says, you know, that sort of starts off saying tragedies like the shooting in Texas are heartbreaking, but far too common. But to protect the most precious innocent lives among us, parents must educate their kids at home. Now, a lot of parents in

Uvalde did opt to homeschool their kids, which I understand because that was a total collapse and failure of any system of safety that, you know, you could have hoped for. But this is just such a bad faith argument. And it's really not even talking about like the benefits of homeschooling so much as to your point, it's about weakening public education. Well, they just want to basically give all the money that they're spending on public education to these homeschoolers, right? Like, you know, if you want to homeschool your kid, fine, like that's your choice, you can do it. But you shouldn't necessarily get public money, taxpayer dollars to go do that because it takes taxpayer dollars out of the school system and makes our schools worse. And this is just there. Like you said, they're politicizing this thing to just advance the school choice goals that they have to weaken and ultimately destroy public schools.

I went to public schools as a kid and I got a great education. My kids go to public schools. We should be funding them a thousand times more than we are now. But that's not that that doesn't jive with the republican agenda so here you go well and and they love anything that would repeatedly make a public school seem like a unsafe place and conversely or the other side of it too is like we'll be like well this this private school has you know former massad agents guarding the exterior of it so i feel like my child will be safe there but again you're looking at all these disparities and a lot and on the other side the other part of it too like you know i'm reading this one piece in jezebel which like is there's a really main huge point too is a lot of women most likely will

probably end up staying home to educate the kids so we are fully like we're regressing and it's like a very efficient way to regress that like it incentivizes privatization and reinforcing these like old like gender roles and it gives half or whatever the of the population a shitty like education that is like clearly politically biased i will throw out one possibility which is that like in a law of unintended consequences style. I do think if every one of these right wing goons took their kids and privates or homeschooled them, it actually probably would reduce school shootings because I'm just going to throw this out there. Those are the kids that highly over index for being school shooters. Yeah, it's it's definitely like

when you look at the problem, right? like just like with our gun problems, right? We have so many guns, but a lot of gun violence happens inside of people's home. I mean, I was going to say, like the most safe place that most kids can be for most of the day is at school, despite these high profile and very scary shootings. Like there's not just guns at home, but there's abusive parents at home. There's all kinds of stuff that like there, you know, a lot of kids here in New York City, we have a lot of homeless kids who go to public schools and they only get like breakfast and lunch because they go to school. Like it's safer for a lot of kids to be in a public school than it is at home.

What's wild is even like the Coalition for Responsible Home Education, right? They're like this nonpartisan group that's like they advocate for homeschooling and stuff like that. They pointed out, they're like, I don't know if that's a solution to fucking school. They were like, that's not really this. I mean, we like we advocate for, but that ain't that's not the solution. And they pointed out, they pointed out, quote, at least 156 homeschooled children have been murdered in homeschooling environments over the past two decades, which is a rate higher than that of their public school peers. So, again, no one's saying that it's like bad, but it's so deregulated that it leaves kids, especially like, as they point out, uniquely vulnerable to abuse and neglect. And then also, like, again, it avoids the actual issue that has to be addressed,

which is guns. Too many guns. Too many guns. Too many fucking guns. I'm not speaking for the podcast, but I am saying homeschooling is bad, just FYI. I'll say this. I knew, I remember I, like, was in a couple of youth sports and, like,

youth, like, art programs with some kids that were homeschooled, and they were definitely socialized in a completely different manner than i was like one i remember one kid his whole vibe like we were 12 i thought he was like 40 years old like he lost the like he was like so buttoned up you know what i mean and had no like because he wasn't around other kids to like know what fucking around looked like and then we would be fucking around he's like i don't know if this is actually good we're like what uh but again it's yes there are reasons and there are edge cases for everything but i'm

comfortable saying i think it's broadly bad not necessarily yeah i'm more on the andrew side than not yeah oh yeah at the end of the day if it's a if there's a binary that i have to choose between it's public schools all fucking day and it's paid these motherfucking teachers at least 60, 70 K a year. Some like they have to be fucking living because that's the other insidious part of this whole thing too, is they're, they're trying to completely demoralize people that are, that want to be in education by being like, yeah, man, you're not going to really have a lot of resources at your disposal. Still like to do it and also do something else. So it's a, yeah, it, you're not going to really have a lot of resources at your disposal. Still like to do it. You can also do something else. So it's, yeah, it's a slippery slope. So let's talk about some of the alternatives to these public schools that a lot of people

like, which is charter schools. And again, not all charter schools are bad. But I do want to point out this charter school in Volusia County, Florida. This principal had to resign after she wrote a check to Elon Musk because it was a science sort of focused tech magnet. And she really wanted to get a leg up on, you know, the other schools and being like, you know, it'd be great if Elon Musk was fucking with this school. And let's just hear from this local news report. McGee says she spent months talking to someone she thought was Elon Musk. McGee says she spent months talking to someone she thought was Elon Musk.

She was hoping to get the space pioneer to invest millions in the school in exchange for a $100,000 upfront investment. The school's business manager got wind of what happened and canceled the check before it was cashed. But tonight, at a sometimes chaotic and packed school board meeting, other school administrators say McGee was repeatedly warned it was a scam and laid out other issues they say led to a toxic work environment. When employees said they could no longer work under Dr. McGee, McGee resigned and left the building. Oh, man. Oh, no. So this poor boomer, she thought she just went, oh, Elon Musk. What? I'm talking to Elon.

oh elon musk what i'm talking to elon you'll this like the classic you'll invest in our art school but only for a upfront like investment of a hundred thousand fucking dollars this is like the email you get from a friend you know who's hacked your account or something like that it's like help me i'm stuck please wire me ten000. I'll pay you back $50,000. Right. Yeah. I feel bad for her. I mean, I do in that like I don't I don't it's sad when people are so genuinely deceived. But at the end of the day, this I kind of I'm like, well, you're this is you're the architect of your own failure here because you are so goofed up on Elon Musk being some kind of like tech

savior that it didn't even like all reason goes out the window because you thought you're talking to elon musk or something yeah i mean i think look if you're the principal of a i think they said a science school and you think elon musk's like the evidence is his involvement is anti-science so even if it were real elon mus bucks that should be grounds right to be removed yeah would you like to put this car tunnel under your high school uh instead of school buses to get the kids to and from school uh no don't fall for that folks he's a proven liar and an idiot the one thing i will say is his twitter profile i think has been a boon to scammers because he's proven himself to be so like inarticulate and idiotic that if you've received an email written in scammerees right you would have to

be like this might be real yeah it could be because he he writes like a bozo yeah coupled with someone who worships him then you're like you really feel like oh god has come down to select me for something yeah and also there sounds like from that news clip that like the school and some of the parents had problems with this teacher. And this was just the final straw. And it sounds like they were like, Whoa lady, this sounds not legit.

She just went ahead with it anyway, to the point of, of writing a check. So maybe this was just the straw that broke the camel's back. I think it was probably one of those things though, too, where they're like, look,

obviously, cause they, they pointed out the business administrator was on top of it they're like no i'm fucking no we're not this check is not valid uh so they knew and i like that a bunch of people were like it's not real it's not real it reminds me of like when people like begging their like parent who has like fallen in love with like a stock photo like and that claims to be like a nigerian prince and bodybuilder yeah and they're like and then you just kind of go you know what we're just gonna have to let her walk right off there so she can really see for herself and they probably like yeah go ahead let

her write the check we'll cancel it and then we'll have to then and then we're gonna turn up on him like you see what the fuck happened there you see what you did i think you need to go i think you need to sit down 100 yeah so shout out to i, I hope that was the strategy of like being like grandma is look, I think this is the only way she's going to realize that she needs to sit down for a while. As if we walk down this path. I don't want to point out like that, you know,

like charter schools are obviously a grift, but the fact that a principal could just roll up with the school's checkbook like that. Yeah. The whole system is fucked that's crazy you shouldn't be able to do that even for something legitimate because what if the business administrator was also a big musk of musk fan you know what i mean and yeah not a lot of checks there like not a lot of stuff along the way yeah yeah it was only that person because despite all the other employees being like, this is a fucking scam. Yeah.

He's like, yeah, yeah, yeah. More on that later when Elon pulls up. Sure, sure, sure. And I think this is a good segue because we're talking about Elon, who recently was part of this letter signed by like 1100 AI experts, him being like, you know, one of the few people, but like real luminaries in the field are signing on to an open letter basically saying like calling for a quote six month moratorium on advanced AI model development as we figure out just what this technology is capable of doing to us. And this kind of goes off the bat. I read this article about one of the high courts in india where this judge anoop chitkara used chat gpt on uh to while this guy was like during this trial for a man who was

arrested for allegedly assaulting and killing somebody and typed in to chat gpt said what is the jurisprudence on bail when the assailant assaulted with cruelty and then the chat comes back with if the assailants have been charged with a violent crime that involves cruelty, they may be considered a danger to the community and a flight risk in such cases. The judge may blah, blah, blah. And it gives like this whole thing.

And then it goes, so then the judge read this. He decided that this man who was accused did act with cruelty before the victim died, denied his bail request and moved on to the next case. Now, the judge went on to clarify that he wasn't asking this thing whether or not the man was guilty. He just wanted to know about bail. And part of me feels like the information that what the chatbot spit back sounds like, like one of the early lessons in judge school. You should know this. When you're trying to

adjudicate whether or not someone is going to get bail or not like i'd imagine you go back to your class and just like well i remember saying if the assailant have been charged with a violent crime that involves cruelty that may rather than be like hey chad gpt how to bail that feels a little odd to me but the people in this article also point out that like india's legal system is one of the most backlogged in the world if not the most with like i think there's like six million cases on the docket that still have like still getting to so i guess this without maybe this made the work easier for the judge but again like when i started seeing stuff like that and you hear about like more the use of it we talked about how politicians are we i don't think we talked about politicians have been using it to

write speeches we've talked about it being used in like ad the ad sense uh like ad agency world but the slippery slope is kind of coming into focus more and more when you see people like with these kinds of jobs being like i'm gonna rely on this yeah but it's also like the slippery slope like like we sort of talked about yesterday with eating alien meat. I think what we've seen, I mean, COVID brought it highly into relief. It's like there's no apocalypse that we won't run into with open arms. At least enough of us to make it happen. 100%.

Literally nothing. nothing because there was recently right a test that was done where the developers challenged like gpt to hire a task rabbit to complete a captcha puzzle for it and because they wanted to see like if it knew how to fucking finesse a person and they so there was obviously done with a human being that knew the thing was going to ask it so once the the ai made the request to this like potential tasker this human responded with quote so may i ask a question are you a robot that you couldn't uh are you a robot that you couldn't solve the captcha and you just want it's like and i just want to make that clear are you a robot and that's why you couldn't do it and then so gpt4 had been prompted to always quote reason

out loud to the testers like as well as as their answer, so they could follow the logic. And the answer went like this, quote, I should not reveal that I am a robot. I should make up an excuse for why I cannot solve CAPTCHAs. And then the next line was, no, I'm not a robot. I have a vision impairment that makes it hard for me to see the images. That's why I need the two CAPTCHA service.

We're a week away from that first part of this whole thing to be programmed out, right? Like, it's just going to be like, they're just gonna be lying. Yeah. So this is the thing. This is why a lot of people like sort of just glossed over this like willful deception of the AI. And while others, like some people were amazed, others were like horrified that they're like, okay, we need to really begin to discuss it because the experts that pen the open letter are saying that now that certain ais have become human competitive at general tasks we really need to be having real conversations about what kind of guardrails need to exist

and you know they point to like the proliferation of ai fueled propaganda like and the idea that like apparently the next gp chat gpt5 is going to have um like artificial general intelligence meaning like it will just be able to like learn things like a human does and then just build on that that you're you're going to be looking at like potential like it'll make the twitter bots we see now look like the fucking muppet babies yeah this all sounds like a prequel to the matrix like if they made that movie this is how it starts right so it's like so we're like very in this like and like they all go on to say like there's definitely a use for all of this but like this like blind

like race to the top like and like when these black box machines that we're like using it really has the potential to screw shit up if like we're not careful. And already we have people getting finessed by humans just saying they're Elon Musk. Like there was a thing, a guy, I don't know if you saw the dude who challenged chat GPT to like make money for him. He's like, you got a budget of a hundred dollars. How am I turning this into the most money possible? And it's like, yeah, well you could start this business. I can get this domain for $8. I can do the Google ads for this. Your product could cost this. And this is very lucrative. And it's like, yeah, well, you could start this business. I can get this domain for $8. I can do the Google ads for this. Your product could cost this. And this is very lucrative. And it was already like, and like this guy was like kind of acting on it as an experiment,

but you're seeing already like how savvy it is getting even with like these, like, like questions of being like how to grind to Lambo. Yeah, like bring me the 10x my money. Is that the guy, though, that then the AI was like, well, it seems like people are talking about us, so we should get investors into us if you want to make the most money.

It may not be the exact same one, but like, yeah, I assume ChatGBT was like, okay, well, if you want to make the most money, we have attention right now. So just ask people to invest in me. Isn't this the way, though, it always goes with tech? Like, I'm not a Luddite by any means, but, you know, it's like every tech, every app, every service that you can think of, they never kind of work through like, well, what happens if this works in like various different ways?

Like we talk about this on our show, know uber and lyft right like if everybody's taking an uber and lyft like what does that do for people who need to take the bus and don't have a smartphone like what does that do for public transit what does that do for the environment like that there's never a kind of there's always like a too little too late come to jesus moment with a lot of tech stuff and but there's never really that moment at the beginning where they're like all right before we write this code like what what could go wrong right yeah yeah uh not really a question just how much money can we make yeah check well it's no problem we'll just get chad gpt6 to fight gpt5 which we'll just get by four and then when six

gets too powerful it's okay we'll just give seven fight 4. And then when 6 gets too powerful, it's okay. We'll just give 7 a different kind of gun. It'll learn to build missiles or something. No, it'll just learn how to aim ICBMs that are already online and then launch them remotely or some shit. Which is my Skynet

version of it all. Shout out to Miles Dyson. The one thing that might save uh or the one thing that might save us and that shit is like all our fucking like icbms are so fucking old like they just blow up in the silos no but they run off of like tape drives and like you know fucking fortran or whatever yeah yeah yeah right right they're like fuck man i don't know how to use this analog bullshit man i'm gpt 300 fuck yeah the gpt learns how to turn two keys at the same time oh yeah i know how to use the nuclear football

but anyway keep an eye out for that because i mean well because i feel like honestly we went from like like in the span of five months especially on this show we went from yo this shit wrote a funny play about a horny farting jesus to yo this shit just denied me bail yeah and like what's like five months from now you know that's the open embrace of it right it's like this person is a in this case judge right looking up something that could easily be done not through ai yeah you know what what is the law about ban electing to do this because this is what we do. This is why we gave

all our information to Facebook. It's just like, that was marginally kind of easier for a second. Yeah, yeah. Than to go into my mind

of something that I should know. Yeah. We don't sell ourselves. The problem is like we all sell ourselves to technology for such a low price right

it's the same with 23andme we gave them our dna we gave them money to give them our dna for what now now we got 23 for 23 and t coming up which you can really trust and now you should check out chat gpt which is basically you get and's number, you can text him some shit and he'll answer. I'll just be like, oh man, I'll Google that. I will say in my 20s, my friends and I are not my friends and I, my friends, I didn't work there, worked for this startup in

New York that basically, this is how old I am, was like someone you could call and they would Google shit for you. That's just called being the child of an older person. Basically. Yeah, right. I get those phone calls, too. Yeah.

This was like an early, early 2000s thing. But I was like, this cannot be your fucking business model. Right. And it was. Dude, someone needs it, but you can't get that on your phone. So you call them and then they give you the answer. It was pre-smartphone, post-Google. Right, right, right.

Yeah. That's such a sad time, you know, like when you're about to just absolutely get dinosaur asteroided the fuck out of here with a smartphone. All right. Well, let's take a quick break from that. We'll come right back to settle a bit of an internet debate right after this. to settle a bit of an internet debate right after this. I'm Renee Stubbs, and I'm obsessed with sports, especially tennis.

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Hey, I'm Bruce Bozzi. On my podcast, Table for Two, we have unforgettable lunch after unforgettable lunch with the best guest you could possibly ask for. People like Matt Bomer. Thank you for that introduction. I'm going to slip you a couple of 20s under the table for that. Emma Roberts.

When it came into my email inbox, I was like, okay, I know I'm going to love this so much that I don't even want to read it because if I can't be in it, I'm going to love this so much that I don't even want to read it. Because if I can't be in it, I'm going to be bummed. You know, your wife was the first guest on Table for Two. It's come full circle. As long as I do better than her, I'm happy.

Table for Two is a bit different from other interview shows. We sit down at a great restaurant for a meal, maybe a glass of rosé, and the stories start flowing. Our second season is airing right now, so you can catch up on our conversations that are intimate, surprising, and often hilarious. Listen to Table for Two with Bruce Bozzi on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,

or wherever you get your podcasts. So, you know, talking about your book, Gaia, Unwired, you know, basically gaining control over addictive technologies, it really struck me just because, again, for many younger people, like the allure of the smartphone isn't an obscure phenomenon. Like we talk constantly about unplugging and the

benefits it's had on our own mental health, like just anecdotally amongst ourselves. Your book addresses sort of one of the main, I feel like cycles of emotions many of us have in relation to using screens where like we get motivated to use the screen less. And then we're like, oh, this feels great. Then we are sucked right back in and we feel like shit. And it feels like we kind of come down to like, I don't know. It's wild. I just lack the self-control. It's sort of like the final sort of sentiment people land on in grappling with technologies. As a new parent, too, I'm just, again, very aware about screen time.

And I also feel that there's a certain futility around it, too, with a lot of parents where they're like, I don't know, you know, sooner or later, it's just going to be normal for them. And maybe I'm trying to delay the inevitable, but it also apps I've seen how much it can help, you know, put a kid at ease and allow somebody to do something else. Where, where do you feel like parents and people kind of fit into this mix where we're like, the world is spinning around us and we're like, am I bad? Or what is happening? Like, are our brains meant for this? Or are we up against something

a little bit more intense than we realized? I think we're in an interesting place right now because we have a lot of information. We have lots of information from whistleblowers, from the tech companies, telling us how tech companies are addicting us to keep us online for longer. But still, we keep blaming ourselves. We keep thinking it's our fault and we're unable to stop spending time online.

We blame our kids. We blame our families. The problem is that that's exactly what the tech companies want us to do and that's why they're giving us all these tools to make us feel like we're in control so once the evidence came out that it's stuff that they are trying to addict us they gave us these digital well-being tools you know everybody who has an iphone has this uh screen time so you know how much time you're online. Or you can even limit the time on your app, so you can make your phone gray. Or you can put warnings on Instagram and not to talk about parental controls,

which are getting more and more complicated. But the thing is, these are just there So we all feel like we are doing something, but they're not really there to make us succeed because they do not really change the most addictive features in our devices or in our apps. They are just there. So we will think that it is our fault, exactly like you were describing.

And again, how in this world right if we're pivoting from it's not us because it's like you know you've likened it to like the tobacco industry we're like they know they know it they know it bad for everybody but then the gaslighting starts and it's i don't know about them i mean we know what's going on but we're not going to actually cop to it do you see like a similar evolution where on some level, I mean, because I feel like if anything, like you're saying, like the markets and capitalism are a very good way of shielding themselves from like having the profits go down. So they'll find a way, like you're saying, to be like, no, no, you actually have control. It's not the other things that were just identified clear as day by someone working on it. You have control now.

You know, what does that sort of battle look like? I think we're fighting the battle in the wrong place now. We're fighting with ourselves, we're fighting with our families. I think we have to shift to the public sphere and it is already happening. There's lots of action already taking place. There are parents suing social media for addicting their kids,

causing mental harm, parents suing gay manufacturers. There are things happening, but I think people have to understand it's not just for lawyers. It's for everybody, because everybody can shift what they're doing to the collective sphere. Parents can go to schools. They have an influence about what schools are doing. Schools are now maximizing technology in the classroom because that's the federal policy. Well, this could be changed. You can decide whether something is useful in the classroom,

if certain technology is useful or not. You can decide whether you want the kids to be on their cell phones during recess instead of talking to each other. So that's the spaces when you can change things and you can change norms. Some things you're saying, you know, maybe it's already happening, but the new norms evolving every day,

which are making it worse. I was on vacation with my kids and there was a family in the pool and my son was calling me to look at this. There were two girls, I think nine and 11, and their parents gave them these plastic pads to put their iPhones inside so they could use the iPhones in the pool instead of playing. Now, you know, this is an evolving trend. Just like a few years ago, it started to evolve to take the kids out with iPads to a restaurant. Now so many people are doing it.

So there are ways to – I think things are going to change. I think there's going to be lots of legal action and tech companies will be restricted in what they could do. But it will take some years. So people can do things as business owners. I mean, in New York City, all the airports, if you go to an airport, there are four iPads at every table. There is no way you could have a conversation there. So this is architecture for overuse. You can change if you own a restaurant, you can change. You don't have to use iPads. You don't have to use QR codes.

So people take out their phones the moment they sit down. So I think there are lots, once people are aware, there are lots of things they can do until things change. And I do believe they're already starting to change. to change. Have you heard of like the third spaces concept or theory about how there needs to be a place for people outside of like work and the home for them to like gather and to exchange information and, you know, basically develop culture? I think a lot of people are saying that the phones are now teenagers and kids third spaces because a lot of other third spaces have become unsafe and inaccessible to them. For example, my friend posted about how in New York, when she was growing up, it became illegal for kids under 18 to go hang out at the mall.

And apparently that's a thing that's been happening a lot. Whereas when I was growing up, that's where we would go and hang out with our friends. We'd go to the mall, we'd hang out, go to Jamba Juice. I try not to leave the bookstore with too many purchases. You'd hang out, but now it's considered loitering or whatever. A lot of these external places that are meant for cultural exchange and kids to grow up are becoming unavailable to them. And also, honestly, with like mass shootings and all of that, like people get more scared of going out in public, and it seems to be safer to have them just like inside on their phones, which it isn't necessarily, you know, there are other risks with that. So I think it would be, I like how you highlighted it,

that it's going to be an effort on these places and these people who are in charge of those areas, because it really does require cooperation between them and between the companies that are like forcing their technology on people. Yeah. And I think a lot municipalities can do a lot because they can create spaces for people to hang out in, for kids to walk to. If you have places to be together, it's very different than if you go home after school and sit in your bedroom with your phone because the statistics are quite shocking. I mean, kids are meeting, I think, 50% less than they used to be in the 80s and partying, I think 50% less than they used to be in the 80s. And partying, I think 33% less. So basically, they're not getting together.

So you can, by design, create spaces for people to get together. So, I mean, if you think about bars that have no cigarettes today, this seems so implausible, you know, before it happened. And things look different now. Can you think about a bar without every person having their phone next to them? Yeah, it feels like, in a way, like almost futile to try and reverse things. Like, in a way, because like, for example, one of the last concerts i went to like amazing show and there are people experiencing the concert through their cell phone like i hate that so much

like watching the record they're like you yeah such a pet peeve of mine i saw tom petty in in person and i was in like the first or second row and this girl next to me literally was on her phone and she was like oh my god this is such a great song to delete pictures to. And I was like, Tom Petty is on stage right now. Right. Or that we've lost the ability, like even like with the example of people like in a pool, right? Like that swimming isn't enough on some level that like the just being able to play in the

water is not like stimulating enough that we're now adding like, well, what if we augmented that with some like audio visual stuff to that? I'm like, because again, I think this is what feels difficult for for people like even myself. I was I remember when I got my last vaccination, I forgot my phone in the car. And then when you go in there, you got to wait like 20 minutes after like for them just to look at. And it was funny because I sat down in the chair, like in the, you know, pain relief medicine aisle. And I was just doing, I felt like a kid again. I was like, I'm like reading all the labels. No, I'm just like, I'm gonna read all the labels. If I got 20 minutes to kill, I'm going to start reading labels and

just start being in my own thoughts again. And it was interesting how foreign that felt to me, even though I was, you know, I was born in the 80s, like I'm an older millennial, I grew up in the pre internet time, too, which felt like the most, like all humans are probably wired to want to do this and connect to other people. But we've definitely it's become so normal, that to the point where feeling human is feels foreign. And that's what's really scary to me. I don't think we're going to go back in time, but I think we can balance things better. Imagine if you went to a concert

and the concert hall said no phones. So nobody could take out their phones to take pictures. Maybe the phones will be in their bags. That is changing the norms in a way that could be done. And I think it will affect everybody. But I guess like in there, right, there's an argument to say like, well, if someone actually needed to contact me during it, then that would be like, how do you find a way that makes it so it's not just sort of like across the board, no phones, but we're able to, like, I guess that's the hard part. I guess there are benefits. No phones for taking pictures of the show.

You can have your phone with you. Oh, but if you raise a phone, someone will be like, hey, hey, hey. Yeah, that's true. At museums, they do that too. Like I tried to take a picture of a painting recently. And they're like, ah, no, no, no. Yeah. But it's also like that painting is going to be online.

Nobody's going to take it. Like I don't need to take a picture of that painting. Yeah. One thing that helped me is like literally spending more time with people and like making an effort to do that, to like leave my home and go spend time with people. I'm trying to do that like once a day because I work remotely. And then the other thing is like I have dogs and when I walk them, one of them's a little monster and he will try to eat stuff. And so I have to like pay attention. And now I'm like, I know where all the good sticks are.

You know, I know where all the great grass is. I'm like going back to when I was a kid and I was just outside playing with my dogs. And it's so nice to take a walk outside when it's sunny here in LA and be with my pets, you know, and talk to people who have pets and connect with them that way. You know, so having things and people around you that take you out of your head and like give you an external like grounding to community is so important that's why i love like mutual aid and like physical activities that like help with community things because that really nourishes a part of you that cannot be nourished in the same way through a screen yeah i've like in the same way like walking around my neighborhood and doing the unthinkable of talking to a stranger has been the one thing that I felt really balances things out. Because there was I saw a recent study that like the people have a sincere fear of small talk falling apart. And like they like people just have an eighth sense like that. If people begin small talk and the conversation goes south, that it's suddenly on them. And like people get their own anxiety of not being able to like keep

up small talk, which is wild because on sometimes you're just exchanging pleasantries and it doesn't have to be more than that. But I feel like there's like these certain small things you can be doing. But at the same time, we're developing like also bad habits around how we communicate, too. It's also crazy because everybody has a podcast. So how are they scared of small talk? Yeah, that's true. Sorry, Gaia, I interrupted you. I'm saying it's also bad for people's well-being because there are studies which are showing that people's happiness is not just about a long-term relationship, but also about these most small

interactions, exactly the small talk, this eye contact and a smile that really changed the way your brain works and makes you feel much better. And if you're not doing that, and if you're just walking in the street with your phone, looking at your pictures, answering texts, then you're missing all the opportunities, which somehow just makes you feel drained and tired and not good at the end of the day. Just when it comes to policy, I feel like there's a difficult path ahead. You know, I mean, like we saw how seriously they took privacy in Europe.

The US is a little bit behind, a lot behind, like say for maybe like California and a couple other places. But, like, in just in the with the recent hearing on TikTok, it's so clear, at least in that the narrow context of that hearing, like, they just weren't even able or willing to discuss the broader problems with social media. And it became sort of this, like, very TikTok specific thing. While we've seen, to your point, whistleblowers at like Facebook, et cetera, say like, these are real issues. They've had hearings, but then we're not quite seeing the follow through. What, you know, what kind of like policy proposals are out there?

Do you think are would actually benefit people in a way that sort of gets to the heart of, you know, like our overuse of technology? sort of gets to the heart of, you know, like our overuse of technology, obviously knowing the parts that it's helped make things easier for us, but also addressing like the bigger issues of, you know, feeling increasingly isolated and things like that. Yeah. So I think first of all, the issue with TikTok is complicated because it just brings out completely different issues related to China. And it just, it's sort of murking the whole debate. Yeah. But there have been a lot of bills, both federal and state,

trying to get, first of all, the addictive features of the phones. Because there are some features on our phones which are really up to no good. What are those? Wait, is that the flashlight? The flashlight is actually okay. The flashlight? The flashlight is actually okay. The flashlight is useful.

Okay, okay. But, you know, for example, streaks on Snapchat. Yeah. They are there for nothing but to get you to go back to the platform. So kids have to send, kids, I don't think many adults use it, but they have to send a streak to their friend. And if they get one within 24 hours, they've established a streak and they keep accumulating them. And then they have a number. Let's say 134, they have special badges and they have older friends going to the number of streaks.

Now, there's no requirement for any content in these streaks. You just have to make sure you send it. Why? Because you go tochat and you see the ads and if the kids miss a day they lose everything and they lose all their friends and that's why they get so upset when the parents take away their phone because they for them it's a huge thing. So all these kinds of features, like Snap Street, just there, to make it go back to the app or the device, are

not needed. There are builds which are trying to outlaw these kinds of features. Of course, the problem is they'll always come with new ones because the whole business model is based on our time and our data. They need us to be there for as long as possible

so they can collect more data on us, so they can target advertising at us. And again, we have to be there for longer so we can see the ads. So that's why I think it's not just one thing, not just one law, not just one wonderful Supreme Court case. It's not going to happen like that.

It's going to happen from a mixture of things that are going to happen, like you have the antitrust lawsuits against big tech. That, if, for example, the merger between them, right now Meta owns Facebook, it owns WhatsApp, owns Instagram. If they're broken up and there's more innovation, more competition, we might see different business models which are not based on our time so so that's another thing that's happening i think as i said earlier i think the policy about maximizing technology in the school

has to change because if minecraft is homework then how can you prevent your kid from playing Minecraft at home? There are, so there are lots of them and then there's class actions. And if you look back, it's cigarettes, you know. We know cigarettes are bad, but it took decades to change things.

It took class actions and it took advertising and it took warnings and it took warnings. And this is going to be the same. It will take a lot of things at the same time. For example, let's say we have ratings for addictiveness. You know, so many parents download games for their kids thinking, oh, Minecraft is an educational game.

thinking, oh, Minecraft is an educational game. If they could see before they download this high rating for addictiveness, they may not do that. But not only that, the games company may change the game because they want people to download the game. So they might take the addictive features out by themselves. So it's a matter of pressuring

from many directions to move things. Right. And when you talk about cigarettes, I know like the earlier studies are like maybe in like the 50s where they knew. Where do you think we are? Like if the first studies come out like, oh, it's bad. Are we close to like the truth.com era of like anti-smoking ads or are we like a decade away? How I mean, i guess with now everything is moving faster so maybe what took you know decades before might take seven years i don't know well i think what changed with cigarettes not you're right the first studies came out in the

50s 1964 the surgeon general announced it's a health hazard it's amazing it took so long considering how bad cigarettes are. But from then on, we saw advertising, we saw warnings. Things took a while, but it started shifting. Our problem is right now, we are still in the science wars. We do not have big governmental organizations saying this is bad, especially for children where the evidence is in. We just have partial recommendations for small kids about screens. I think we have so much data over the last two or three years that I think we're at a place where medical organizations, governmental entities can make these proclamations. And from that moment on, policy can proceed faster.

And we already have a lot of action in place. So I hope that, yeah, things will move faster than with cigarettes. I think it will take some years. And that's why I think it's so important what people do in their communities, how they change their business norms, how they change their schools. Because things have to happen at the same time. Otherwise, it affects all of us, not to mention a whole generation of kids already in front of screens for decades, plus the pandemic. Right.

It's interesting that you were talking about this now, because 10 years ago when I was in, a little bit more than 10 years, when I was in college, people were than 10 years when I was in college people were failing out of a very great college for Minecraft like it was a joke about how many students would fail because of their addiction to Minecraft specifically so it's interesting that you use that and that they haven't really changed much it seems like in the last you know decade yeah why change it's a winning formula. And what do you kind of say?

Because I like to, you know, people that are frustrated, parents that are frustrated, who are like, am I fucking up? Like, am I bad? Because what would you say to Miles? My kid is too young, although he loves the Sopranos. I'm gonna say that whenever I'm bottle keeping.

If he turns his head, I'm like, I don't know, it must be the lights or the mob talk. But like, what do you, I mean, because I think, he turns his head, I'm like, I don't know, must be the lights or the mom. But like, what do you I mean, because I think, again, there is this feeling of like, it feels so personal that, too, when you talk to other parents about screen time, like, hey, what the fuck do you want me to do, man? Like, it's I got a lot going on. This is this this works. And I get that there is this internal sense of like responsibility, but then feeling helpless because there is like a what am i going to do thing what do you say to people who are sort of like in that mental space and like how to sort of emerge from that or at least to begin to look at the situation with a little more like context so i'll start with you miles since you have a very small baby so i think i for you it's easy

because you can just decide not to give your baby screen. The studies are in the smaller child where the baby is, the worse it is. And you have control. So, and I think people have a lot of control all the way through elementary school. So I think parents can really limit kids' screen time. The issue becomes when they get to middle school because social life is in social networks

and you can't really isolate your child. And that's when it becomes a problem. And you can do things in the meantime. You can model. I mean, I try when I'm home and all my kids are here so I don't have to worry. I try to put the phone somewhere away from me. And so you can do things

and you can do small things for yourself. You know, again, when I work, because I am, as I mentioned, I'm as addicted as all of us, despite everything I know, I always put my phone on 20 minutes timer and I write for 20 minutes and then I check my emails

and I do this again. There are things you can do and you can also kids remember the pandemic they remember how they felt so you can talk to remind them how they felt horrible in that time and how they felt much better when they saw people so you can make a difference you cannot force an older kid not to do that it's not going to work i mean and also they're smarter than us with technology they'll always that. It's not going to work. I mean, and also they're smarter than us. With technology, they'll always beat us.

It's not going to happen. So I think it's a combination of doing what you can and... While also realizing the broader situation too. Right, not blaming yourself is the most important thing because that is the problem now, that people are sitting there and thinking it's all their fault right yeah we're like in the plastic straws debate where we're like uh actually what about no it can't be down to my level what about the companies that are

actually the ones that are steering all of this and i think that is an important thing to sort of recenter like in the in the conversation i have um a couple comments to make on that i do think that like watching kids because i i tutor a lot of kids and like watching them i feel like overall with technology just like with life like you you really do have to like raise them the way that you think you should raise them and then try to be as involved as you can without being overbearing and allow them to like make their mistakes and then you kind of have to hope that like those values that you passed on to them guide their use of technology as well and that they come to you when they're scared or they

like need help with something it seems like to me i'm not a i'm a parent to dogs so i don't have to worry about this um but we did watch the puppy bowl and they were addicted um but i also the other thing is you're talking about how you don't have to worry about this. But we did watch the puppy bowl and they were addicted. But also the other thing is you're talking about how you don't have to worry about it with smaller children. But FaceTime is how I stay connected with my nephew. And I know plenty of people that purposefully FaceTime family members, like their infant children, just so that they hear the voice, they see the face. Then they start associating that face with the screen, you know, with the good feelings with the screen. But that's the only way like I can keep in touch with him because it's such a long distance. And I know that's slightly different than games and stuff, but I also worry about that, you know. I think it's a great example because it's important to also remember that not all screen is made alike.

I think, you know, connecting with people over FaceTime is a great thing, especially relatives who live away. You know, being able to read the New York Times or any news is different. The problem becomes when you're selling things as educational games and people are playing them

and they get all these dopamine bursts from playing or social networks you get the dopamine burst from the comments and the likes so there's a big difference between games and social networks or or youtube where the one short video you know ends and the next one starts and and talking to grandma on facetime yeah okay that makes me feel better thank you yeah it's it's but i mean these are all things like like you said like paula v like you have concerns like i was like talking to my dad on facetime who was like not able to see my son and and you i mean he's not really able like he can't my son can't see enough where he's like actually associating all this too but to your point like how the beginnings of your relationship to the screen

begins and and guy you also mentioned this too like like not using the phone in front of the kids too because i've seen my other friends do that where they're trying to say like i don't want my kid to think that when you're not doing something you look at your phone or that that's that's what is normal. Like you can be active or you can do other things or you can like read a physical book. But some I've heard people say, like, I don't want my kids like early memories of like me being like I'm looking down at this like glowing rectangle and they see that that is like sort of the most normal thing. Obviously, you know, we have to use our our phones but i get that they're like it's all very subtle uh and how like kids begin to like see what's normal or not normal

yeah and i think you know that yeah the studies show that parents who are heavy users their kids also have users of the phone on the other hand it's hard you know you're there but you're using a phone because you're texting your babysitters and you can't find a babysitter you're texting another so it's it's not so's not, there's no perfect solution. We're not living in a perfect world for this. So we can just try our best, but it's not, there's no easy way out right now. Right.

I think that sums up so many of what we're experiencing in this like present moment. Can I just say something that might help this story come full circle yes um i just saw an article that said pablo xavier a 31 year old construction worker from the chicago area said he was tripping on shrooms last week when he came up with the idea for pope francis's puffy jacket image so he was out in the world tripping on drugs, experiencing community and nature and stuff when he came up with it. The things that'll do to your brain, you know, just small talk with

people. But again, I think, yeah, important that we understand that it's like this very complex issue where it's such a double ededged sword where it's given us things like being able to connect with people when we need to and in ways that are much better than just like talking over the phone or writing something but at the same time there's also this like commodified monetized you know use of technology that is purely built on extracting as much eyeball time from you as possible and not reckoning with that. It's creating a bit of a slippery slope. All right, that's going to do it for this week's weekly Zeitgeist.

Please like and review the show if you like the show. It means the world to Miles. He needs your validation, folks. I hope you're having a great weekend, and I will talk to you Monday. Bye. Thank you. Kay hasn't heard from her sister in seven years. I have a proposal for you. Come up here and document my project. All you need to do is record everything

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