The Daily - A Breakout Moment for Vivek Ramaswamy

Episode Date: August 30, 2023

In the Republican presidential race, the battle for second place has been jolted by the sudden rise of a political newcomer whose popularity has already eclipsed that of far more seasoned candidates ��� Vivek Ramaswamy.Jonathan Weisman, who is a political correspondent for The Times, explains the rising candidate’s back story, message and strategy.Guest: Jonathan Weisman, a political correspondent for The New York Times.Background reading: Surging poll numbers underscore that Vivek Ramaswamy is having a well-timed political moment.Mr. Ramaswamy, a millennial, has a lot to say about his generation.For more information on today’s episode, visit nytimes.com/thedaily. Transcripts of each episode will be made available by the next workday.

From The New York Times, I'm Michael Barbaro. This is The Daily. In the Republican presidential race, the battle for second place has been jolted by the sudden rise of a political newcomer whose popularity has already eclipsed that of far more seasoned candidates. Today, my colleague Jonathan Weissman on the backstory, message, and strategy of Vivek Ramaswamy.

It's Wednesday, August 30th. Jonathan, for the past week, the story of the Republican presidential race has been, quite unexpectedly, the story of Vivek Ramaswamy. Remarkable, huh? Six months ago, Vivek Ramaswamy was, as he says, a skinny little guy with a long name. Nobody knew who he was, but he was out there tilling the soil in Iowa and New Hampshire using his own money, which is copious, and his patented style of saying no to nobody. This is a guy who will be on any TV show, any podcast, any radio show. You ask him, he'll be there. He could do as many as 30 media hits a day.

And that is really his secret. Right. I remember thinking around the end of the spring that this guy was everywhere. There was a kind of vivec ubiquity. And he was rising in the polls. He was actually moving upward while Ron DeSantis, who was supposed to be the great threat to Donald Trump, is going down in the polls. And suddenly you're starting to see some guy named Vivek Ramaswamy, who is about to overtake the second place Republican in the primaries.

It was kind of a jolt. Right. And as if to confirm what we were seeing, these memos leaked out from the super PAC that is trying to boost DeSantis' campaign just ahead of what would be the first debate of the 2024 Republican primary season. And in those memos, that super PAC says, watch out for Vivek Ramaswamy and hit him hard multiple times when you get onto that stage. Right. Nothing could better confirm that Ramaswamy was having a moment than the campaign apparatus around the guy who was supposed to be having a moment saying, you should be worried about this other person and you should be beating him up. kind of sounded like a joke, right? But then all of a sudden, these documents emerged that look like they worry about the rise of this guy, Vivek Ramaswamy. And then we get to the debate, and we're all expecting that Vivek Ramaswamy will take a hit from Ron DeSantis. We're all watching for it. And in fact, Vivek Ramaswamy takes multiple hits from multiple candidates. And every time he

proved deft, he somehow bobbed and weaved and turned the debate back on his opponents. And he got exactly what he wanted from that debate, because he was the guy they were taking seriously. And he was confirming to the rest of the world what he had been saying to himself for months. I'm the guy to beat. Right. And suddenly, after that debate, it felt like we were looking at a bonafide breakout moment in this primary for Vivek Ramaswamy. Of what duration and importance, we can't say at this moment, but a breakout moment nonetheless. And of course, that's why we wanted to talk to you, Jonathan, because you have been covering Ramaswami closely for many months,

traveling with him across the country. You've gotten to really know him. And so we want to talk to you about the full Ramaswami story, not just the momentum of the past few weeks, but a complete portrait of who he is and how he reached this point. So Vivek Ramaswami is the child of Indian immigrants who were Brahmins, the highest caste in Indian society. His father was an engineer.

He was trained at the MIT of India. His mother is a psychiatrist. They settled in a suburb of Cincinnati. His dad, he likes to say, was a psychiatrist. They settled in a suburb of Cincinnati. His dad, he likes to say, was a liberal. And he liked to talk back to his dad and take the contrarian conservative position. And by the time he got to Harvard, he was a libertarian. He actually had a alter ego called Da Vake, who was a libertarian rapper. But his undergraduate degree is in biology, and he got a job out of undergraduate as a stock picker for a prominent hedge fund. He was a biotech guy and told the hedge fund what biotech companies looked promising.

And ultimately, that's how he became very, very rich. When he gets out of Yale Law School, he starts a company, Roivant, with a really smart idea of combing through the patent files of the big pharmaceutical companies looking for discarded patents that weren't abandoned because they wouldn't necessarily work, but were abandoned because they didn't look particularly profitable for a company as big as, say, Merck. And he thought, well, I'm going to buy the patent cheap, and I'm going to develop them cheap. You're saying he's basically selling bargain basement patents that everybody else has more or less abandoned.

Exactly. And he had a lot of success. He was involved in bringing about five different drugs to market, which in the biotech world is a pretty good track record. But the drug that really put him on the map was in fact a failure. Mr. Ramaswamy, welcome to Bad Money. Good to see you, sir.

Very good to see you. A drug to address Alzheimer's. Tell me why Glaxo kind of wrote this drug off and yet you have such great hopes for it. I actually think the potential opportunity here is really tremendous for delivering value to patients. Ramaswamy just went everywhere in the biotech world and pitched this idea that he was going to bring an Alzheimer's drug to market.

Actually, we believe we're only one additional phase three study away from the approval of this drug on a global basis. He pumped up the stock price of his company and its subsidiary, Axovent, way high. When I see a red hot stock, I don't want to get people hurt. You know that. Absolutely. You got one drug and, you know, everyone hopes that it works. I think you're asking all the right questions. Exactly. Fair enough. Okay, well, we're going to be following the situation. And then, lo and behold, it didn't work. It failed. The subsidiary collapsed.

A lot of people took a bath. But the way this structure was set up for his company, Ramaswamy did fine. In fact, by the time he's 35, he's made $200 million. Wow. So that sounds a bit like the story of a charismatic salesman telling people what they want to hear, which doesn't seem like that big a stretch or leap from politics. No, exactly. In fact, he was in some ways born to politics. This is a guy who knows how to sell himself. And why does he eventually turn his attention to politics? It goes back to 2020 and the Black Lives Matter protests that erupted after George Floyd's murder.

George Floyd's murder. Remember, at that time, CEOs from companies large and small were speaking out in favor of the Black Lives Matter protesters and against systemic racism, against police violence. And Ramaswamy wasn't insulated from those trends. In fact, he was under pressure from employees of his company, Roivant, to be out there, to speak out. And he said, no, it is not the role of a chief executive officer of a company with fiduciary responsibilities to its shareholders to get involved in politics at all. Now, joining me, Vivek Ramaswamy, big corporate entities embracing woke politics whole cloth. Why? Big business in this country decided to enter an arranged marriage with the new woke left. And it's more like mutual prostitution because each side gets something out of the trade. He started appearing on Fox News. But

these woke values are really easy. They love anti-racism because they could applaud diversity and inclusion, put some token minorities on their boards. He alienated a lot of very big-name Democrats who were advisors to his company. And he also alienated some of the employees of his company, so much so that within months of his first commentary in public, he had stepped back, left as CEO, and was writing a book called Woke Inc., a Jeremiah ad against liberal politics in corporate board suites. He follows up his first book, Woke Inc., with two other books and translates that to a lot of appearances on Fox News, on Fox Business. He starts making a name for himself in conservative circles, and he decides, I want to run for president.

And he seems to be driven by his fear of wokeism from the left, that society's under assault from liberal activism. And when he finally announces his run for president, he does so with a vision for this country and its society that is extremely dark. We'll be right back. We'll be right back. So, Jonathan, tell us more about this dark message at the heart of Ramaswamy's eventual presidential campaign.

Well, nothing captures that message more than the video that launched him. We're in the middle of a national identity crisis. Faith, patriotism, and hard work have disappeared. He speaks of a hole in our soul, a darkness in the American society. We hunger to be part of something bigger than ourselves, yet we cannot even answer the question of what it means to be an American. Today, the woke left preys on that vacuum. They tell you that your race, your gender, and your sexual orientation govern who you

are, what you can achieve, and what you're allowed to think. This is psychological slavery. And his message is that he can bring the country back from this morass. And that is why today I am announcing my run for president of the United States. This isn't just a political campaign. This is a cultural movement to create a new American dream for the next generation. Jonathan, some of this candidly feels a bit familiar for the Republican Party in the era of Donald Trump, who has long railed, for instance, against political correctness and woke culture.

So what, in your mind, and I guess in Ramaswamy's mind, makes this distinct? You know, it's not just his diagnosis of what Donald Trump called American carnage. It's his remedy. It's the details to actually do something about it that pulls his agenda much farther to the right of Donald Trump. Hmm. Explain that. Well, for instance, remember Donald Trump kind of invented the notion of the deep state. Well, Ramaswamy talks about the

administrative state, and he says that he would do things that Trump never dreamed of. The people who we elect to run the government ought to be the ones who actually run the government. He's talking about cutting 75% of the federal workforce, eliminating the Department of Education, the IRS, the FBI. He's talking about gutting the administrative state, not just railing against it. We will shut them down. And that's just the very beginning of his agenda. So on the first day of my campaign, I pledged to do something, which is to use U.S. military force if necessary to address the Mexican drug cartels, who, yes, are terrorist organizations. This is a guy who talks about taking U.S. troops and actually attacking Mexican cartels in Mexico.

Well, I don't think citizenship should be something that anybody automatically takes for granted, born here or not. citizenship should be something that anybody automatically takes for granted, born here or not. He talks about ending birthright citizenship, which would mean that the children of undocumented immigrants born on U.S. soil would no longer be American citizens. Why are you against supporting a decree? Because it does not advance American interests. And as the U.S. president, I'm not running for any other role other than looking after the interests of Americans. And then, if anything, his foreign policy is even farther to the right, certainly a swing toward isolationism.

He talks about not giving another dime of military aid to Ukraine, but he even goes farther. I would freeze the current lines of control, and that would leave parts of the Donbass region with Russia. He says he would give Vladimir Putin eastern Ukraine. Our engagement in Ukraine is further driving Russia into China's arms. So my foreign policy centers on weakening that alliance. He says we need to make friends with Vladimir Putin. He doesn't trust Putin, friends with Vladimir Putin. He doesn't trust Putin, but he wants to woo Putin away from China. And to do that, he's willing to give up the sovereignty of a would-be ally, Ukraine. And if we rediscover who we really are, then we can actually stand up to the actual threats we face on the global stage. And the top of the list, it isn't in Ukraine. It is communist China. And he talks about that the most important piece of his foreign policy

is to confront China and to break the United States' dependence on China. That is our number one threat that we face in the next century. Similarly, he seems ready to give up on Taiwan. We are dependent on a tiny island nation off the southeast coast of China for our entire modern way of life in the United States of America. He's actually said out loud many times that he would spend the first four years of his presidency building up the domestic semiconductor industry so we would no longer be dependent on Taiwan for semiconductors. And then at the end of those four years, he would no longer defend Taiwan, basically signaling to Beijing, take it, it's yours.

And we will not take the risk of war that risks American lives after that for some nationalistic dispute between China and Taiwan. Wow. And then that leads to actually perhaps maybe his most controversial position, at least in Republican politics. He'd like to further the bilateral peace agreements that Israel is pursuing with its neighbors so he can stop giving military aid to Israel. Now, aid to Israel is sacrosanct in the Republican Party, but he's saying, you know, eventually we don't need to do that either. Huh.

Jonathan, you started to hint at this, but these are extremely unorthodox views of American foreign policy, period. And especially for a Republican when it comes to Taiwan and Israel, defending those two have been pillars of modern Republican foreign policy. So what do you make of that? Well, it's not only radical, but if you just look under the surface, some of this doesn't make a lot of sense. I mean, he says that we're going to confront China in every way, but that somehow we will, you know, have four years to build up a semiconductor industry so China can have Taiwan. That doesn't make a lot of sense for a confrontation. But also, how does he know that in four years we'll be able to build up a semiconductor industry that's

totally independent of Taiwan? How does he know that China won't invade before four years? It's like the world doesn't work the way he wants it to, but he's almost willing it to work the way he wants it to. Right. You're saying the arguments don't add up, they're flawed, and they are not representative of someone who's really understood geopolitics. I mean, this has led foreign policy experts, including conservative foreign policy experts, to say that Vivek Ramaswamy is just engaged in bizarre, magical thinking. Remember, on the debate stage, Nikki Haley looked at him and said, you don't know what you're talking about. You've never conducted foreign policy, and it shows. If ideas like this don't make sense,

why is Ramaswamy even articulating that? I mean, it's not clear to me that Republican voters need him to make a four-part argument around Taiwan that results in it being given back to China. So why is he even treading there? What you need to know about Vaik Ramaswamy is that he has this quality about him that anticipates what people want to hear and gives them what they want, whether it's the truth or not. I remember being in New Hampshire and a woman stood up and said that she really didn't like all this anti-wokeism that seemed beside the point to her. And he said, oh, I'm not really into that stuff anymore. But in the back of the room, they were giving out little buttons that said,

stop wokeism, vote Vivek. Wait, how could you not be into wokeism? That's his whole campaign. That's his whole campaign. And yet he said he's not into it anymore. He says these things a lot. I remember following him to the South side of Chicago. He was there to talk about his immigration policies because

they were settling migrants shipped up from Texas in the south side, and the community was getting upset. He thought he was going to be able to stir the pot with black Chicagoans about this, but they were much more interested in really peppering him on his opposition to affirmative action, on his belief that there's no such thing as systemic racism. And then nobody asked about immigration, just nobody. And I was in Iowa just a few days ago, and he had this shtick where he said, nowhere were they more interested in my immigration policies and my promise to go after the cartels than in the south side of Chicago

in an all-black audience. I remember writing in my notes, this is a lie. Wow. So it's clear that his message has a radical quality to it. The content of what he's saying can at times strain logic and practicality. You're spending all this time with him out in the field. How are voters that you're talking to and watching receiving all of this messaging and content? The thing about Vivek Ramaswamy is that he exudes confidence so much that whatever he says sounds correct. He speaks with such clarity that he doesn't invite you to analyze whether what he said was logical or not. And I remember everywhere I go,

I talk to people after his events and they always say he is so brilliant. They are convinced that whatever he said had to be right because he said it so well. Hmm. I mean, it sounds like his success as a politician, but I can bring my business smart. Well, Vivek Ramaswamy says the same thing, but he says it in a much more convincing way. He sounds like he has all of the answers. Well, speaking of Trump, Jonathan, I'm curious if Ramaswamy is running a campaign

that's basically to the right of Trump. How does he think about his relationship to Trump as a rival in this campaign? He doesn't want to challenge Trump. He doesn't want to alienate Trump's voters. I think his whole theory of the case is that there will be some event that takes Trump down. Maybe he'll be convicted. Maybe he just can't make it through all of these court cases. And that Vivek Ramaswamy will be in the position to gobble up all of those Trump supporters because after all, he is more Trump than Trump. You know, a lot of people think Vivek is running to be Donald Trump's vice president. I think he only wants to be president.

This is a guy who was a CEO in his early 30s. He only wants to be the guy on top, and he thinks that's his destiny. What you just outlined, that Trump can't run for some reason, can't end up being the nominee, that has been the presumed strategy of other candidates in this race. Most notably, of course, Ron DeSantis,

whose policy positions, it would seem, overlap a fair bit with Ramaswamy. He too, DeSantis, is running as an anti-woke isolationist. But Ramaswamy is farther to the right than Ron DeSantis, is running as an anti-woke isolationist. But Ramaswamy is farther to the right than Ron DeSantis. He is more personable than Ron DeSantis, just a much more natural candidate on the campaign trail. And unlike DeSantis, he never criticizes Donald Trump.

In fact, he said on the debate stage, he is the greatest president of the 21st century. He has said he will pardon Donald Trump for any convictions or any charges regardless. His only criticism perhaps would be that he can do what Donald Trump wasn't able to do, but that Donald Trump will always be his inspiration. I want to talk about what it means that Ramaswamy is having this breakout moment with the really important caveat that it's just a moment, that it could change, that he could plunge in the polls as so many hot burning candidates do in crowded Republican fields. But knowing that he's doing this well now,

it feels very telling that the two most viable candidates to be the number two in the Republican field are so Trump-like, right? I mean, one, Ramaswamy, so Trump-like that he's to the right of Trump on many issues. And DeSantis a little less so, but likes to see himself as the electable Trump, the Trump without the baggage. If you put all the supporters of Trump, Ramaswamy, and DeSantis together, you have a really large chunk of the Republican electorate. And what that seems to suggest is that Trumpism might not just be about Trump at all at this stage, but about just how far rightward the entire Republican Party has shifted over the past few years. When that many candidates are all this conservative, you're clearly no longer just

talking about Trump and his base. The Republican Party is now the party of right-wing populism. The old Republican Party of George W. Bush conservatism is gone. We have candidates trying to run that way in Chris Christie or Asa Hutchinson or even Mike Pence. But I'm at these events. I talk to these people. They want somebody who is going to reflect their own skepticism and cynicism of where this country is, that sense that they are under assault. and the candidate who really grapples with their own negativity is the one that seems to be getting their allegiance. Right now, that's Donald Trump,

but it could be Vivek Ramaswamy, who's willing to push dark visions of society into places we never dreamed of. Well, Jonathan, thank you very much. You're welcome. Thanks for having me. We'll be right back. back. Here's what else you need to know today. This storm is very strong and is expected to strengthen to a major hurricane by the time it makes landfall. Hurricane Adalia was expected to become a category four strength storm by landfall this morning, delivering potentially catastrophic winds, rain, and flooding to Florida's northern Gulf Coast. Residents in at least 28 counties

were ordered to evacuate their homes, mostly because of a storm surge that could reach up to 15 feet. During a news conference at the White House, the head of the Federal Emergency Management Agency warned that the hurricane's strength should not be underestimated. This storm will be deadly if we don't get out of harm's way and take it seriously. So I ask all Floridians to be vigilant and heed

the warnings of your local officials. If they tell you to evacuate, please do so immediately. Today's episode was produced by Mary Wilson, Diana Nguyen, and Summer Tamad. It was edited by Rachel Quester with help from Paige Cowett. Fact-checked by Susan Lee. Contains original music by Marian Lozano and Dan Pell and was engineered by Chris Wood. Our theme music is by Jim Brunberg and Ben Landfork of Wonderly.

That's it for The Daily. I'm Michael Barbaro. See you tomorrow.