The Daily - A Capitol Officer Recounts Jan. 6: An Update

Episode Date: December 28, 2021

This week, The Daily is revisiting some of our favorite episodes of the year and checking in on what has happened in the time since they first ran.When Officer Harry Dunn reported for work at the Capitol on the morning of Jan. 6, he expected a day of relatively normal protests.At noon, the mood shifted. He received calls over his radio that the demonstrations were becoming violent. When he took up position on the west side of the Capitol, he said he realized just how dangerous the situation had become.Inside the building, after the walls were breached, Officer Dunn found a chaotic scene — one in which officers were overwhelmed and the waves of rioters seemed endless. He also encountered racism from the pro-Trump mob, as did many of his Black co-workers.We hear from Officer Dunn about what happened that day from his perspective.Guest: Officer Harry Dunn, a Capitol Police officer who was on duty during the storming of the Capitol.Sign up here to get The Daily in your inbox each morning. And for an exclusive look at how the biggest stories on our show come together, subscribe to our newsletter. Background reading:“Black officers fought a different battle” on Jan. 6, Officer Harry Dunn said. Here is what he saw and heard when rioters, including white supremacists, stormed the Capitol.For more information on today’s episode, visit nytimes.com/thedaily. Transcripts of each episode will be made available by the next workday. 

Hey, it's Michael. This week, The Daily is revisiting some of our favorite episodes of the year, and hearing what's happened in the time since they first ran. You call me Harry. Hi there. Officer Dunn, good evening. How are you? Good, how are you? Good. We just got instructed to call Officer Dunn Harry, so. Not gonna happen. Well, I'm calling you Mike, so.

You can call me Mike, but I refuse to call a member of the United States Capitol Police anything other than officer. Fair enough, if you insist. Fair enough, if you insist. Today, we return to the experience of a Capitol Hill police officer on January 6th as he witnessed the most shocking events of the year and learn how his life has changed as a result. It's Tuesday, December 28th. Okay. Now that you are ready to tell your story publicly, tell us about yourself. Who are you? I am a father to a beautiful nine-year-old girl. I am a Black man who happens to be a police officer. I am a caring person who wants to see everybody in life live to their fullest potential and treat each other with kindness.

That's who I am in a nutshell. Officer Harry Dunn grew up in the suburbs of Washington, D.C. Maryland, to be exact. Prince George's County, Maryland. As I was looking for different careers to choose, I found out information about the Capitol Police. And once you learn about a little bit more about it, the benefits were really pretty good at the time. And from his first day on the job, he says he was awed by the Capitol. It's a historic place. You know, it's such a monumental place. It's the nation's capital.

It's so prestigious. But mindful of its history. Looking at the Capitol as a Black person, just knowing the history of it and how slaves were crucial in the building standing. They are the reason that building is, they built it. And when you take a step back and actually think about it, it gets overwhelming. You're just like, wow, look at how far we've come. And then you got events like the 6th and you say, wow, maybe we haven't come that far at all. According to congressional testimony, by the morning of the 6th,

the leadership of the Capitol Police were aware of the strong possibility for violence that day. But when Officer Dunn reported to work, he says he was expecting a relatively normal day of protests. Just a First Amendment protest, and people coming up there to express their pleasure or displeasure with Congress, which is people's right. Part of the condition of Officer Dunn speaking to us is that he cannot discuss the conduct of his superiors or describe their communications with him, but he can share what happened that day from his own perspective. And he says that shortly after noon, he started to receive calls on his radio that the crowd marching on the Capitol had turned violent. He eventually took a position on the west side of

the Capitol. And he says that that's when he realized just how dangerous the situation had become. I was out there with a long gun, an M4, a rifle, and you're out there in an elevated position with this rifle looking down on thousands and thousands of people. And these weren't people out there passing out pamphlets. They had bad intentions, and we know they were armed because there were guns found and confiscated and people were arrested. So imagine the ones that we didn't find.

So we know they were armed. You're out there, and I'm this big target, and I'm thinking to myself, I am going to get taken out. I am going to get shot. I am going to get shot. As the crowd stormed the barricades below him, Officer Dunn says he left his position to tend to fellow officers who had come under attack. So I'm up there helping officers that have been pepper sprayed and gassed.

And that is where the first initial breaches happened. And that's when we teamed up in teams of two to respond inside the building to assist officers inside that needed help. Once we got word that there were people inside, we had to go because that is uncharted territory. I mean, the whole day was, but you got people inside the Capitol

and Congress is in session. The vice president is overseeing proceedings. So absolutely, we got to go. This is, whoa, here we go, guys, let's go. And describe that scene inside the Capitol as you respond. Well, as we're responding to calls, it was an officer down. It was an officer who was trapped, surrounded by rioters. There was a call for officer needs assistance, holding the doorway. holding the doorway. And then I'll say another officer calls out. They're coming through the windows also. Then there are calls for another officer down, another officer down. We can't breathe. There's gas in here. They're throwing fire extinguishers. There's some kind of explosion that just went off. There's shots fired. It's just, it's chaos. There's shots fired. It's just, it's chaos.

The calls became so frequent and so many that we couldn't do two-man teams anymore because there weren't enough officers to go around for people that needed assistance. So everybody now were just one-man teams. And then you get upstairs and you're looking around. It literally just looked like just a free-for-all. People just running around with their flags out. It's smoke everywhere. It's pepper spray in the air. People are hugging statues

and taking pictures and yelling and screaming all in the Capitol. This sacred place, you know, what represents a pinnacle of democracy. And you're seeing all of this. And in your mind, it's like, I cannot believe what I'm seeing right now.

But you don't have time to process all that because you have to restore some kind of order. We'll be right back. I was watching this live. I think a lot of us were watching this live. I think a lot of us were watching this live. And what stood out was that, yes, there was this huge volume of rioters coming at you all. And you all seem to be making a decision, which I want to try to understand, to not use force. I remember thinking to myself, will they use force? Will an officer raise their gun? Will they shoot their gun, given the dynamics here? And with one exception that resulted in a rioter being killed, that really didn't happen.

That's a very complicated question to answer. I'm going to err on the side of not saying something without clearly thinking it through. And I'm just going to, I'm just going to, I'm not going to address that. Um, I apologize. I wish I could, um, because I know a lot of people want to know why the hell didn't you shoot them? Um, when, And I'll just tease it a little bit. When you say shoot them, which one? All of them? They were freaking possessed zombies.

It was insane. They were just, no matter what, they just kept coming and coming and coming. And there were so many of them. There were so many of them. And it would just wave after wave after wave after wave. And it was like, where does it end? Okay. Again, a question you may find frustrating.

Were there ever any instructions given that day about whether or not or how to use force? No, I'm not going to discuss anything that has anything to do with any instructions we were or were not given. I'm not going to discuss that. Okay. I can only discuss about my specific experiences um what i saw and but that does not have anything to do with talking about my department because i'm just speaking for myself now yeah i'm gonna give this i'm gonna give this one last try and you can avoid this last answer too was there ever was there ever a moment, where as you surveyed this situation, looked at the numbers, the intent, the stubbornness, everything you just described to these rioters, and thought to yourself, I should use force? I, officer, I should use force. I thought that I was going to die, but I did not know who it was going to be by.

So I think that goes back to the point where, who do you, who, who do you use force against? Can't use force against everybody. Can't use force on somebody. Cause you think that somebody is going to do something bad. Who, I didn't, I just, because I thought that it was going to happen?

Who do I shoot? Who do I shoot? If somebody knows, tell me. Please, please tell me. Who was I supposed to shoot? It's so striking to hear you say that even with a powerful rifle in your hands as a member of the united states capitol police force you are terrified it's problematic when you start talking about using deadly force against people and using the fear for your life thing because that's an emotion just because i was scared isn't a reason for why i should have taken somebody's life i know i said i wasn't gonna go into force and that that's all i'm gonna say say about that. I'm going to move on. I'm going to move on from that. I'm struck by this image that you're describing of you up against so many people, and it reminded me of that now viral video of Officer Eugene Goodman, one of your colleagues. He's running up the stairs of the Capitol on his own with what feels like dozens of riders chasing after him.

I will stop you real quick. I'm going to say more than dozens. I feel like hundreds. I mean, I, you just watching that, you just have this overwhelming sensation of how outnumbered you all seemed. There were people around me, but you felt like you were alone because there's so many people, you know, I've had a buddy coworker come to me who at the time couldn't see a thing because he got blasted with bear spray to his face and he can't see anything. But he told me he was comforted

once he heard my voice and I say, Hey, I got you. He was comforted at that moment, you know, but it was, we were extremely outnumbered. I want to ask you a sensitive question. How present was your identity as a Black man, a Black officer, in all of this? We know that there were people in that crowd who espoused hateful, racist, white supremacist point of views. So be direct, because I don't understand what you mean, how present was it? What do you mean? Were you encountering people who were explicit in their views about race? Absolutely. Absolutely. And I didn't realize that until after I told

my story, a couple of my co-workers who are Black shared with me their racist experiences that day. And while I wasn't surprised, I was just like, wow, I didn't know. My experience happened when I encountered a group. It was a tactic used by me because I was exhausted. I can't fight nobody else. I can't. I'm tired.

And it's like 30 or 40, 50 people. I can't fight y'all. Like, let's talk, man. So they started talking about how Joe Biden didn't win the election. And I was like, all right, let's,

okay, good. We're talking. We're talking now. That means I'm not fighting and I'm not being exhausted. And I'd said, I voted for Joe Biden.

Does my vote not count? Wow. And then, and then that's when the girl said, you hear that?

This N-word voted for Joe Biden, guys. And then the whole 20, 30, 40, 50 people that were there said this N-word voted for Joe Biden. Boo! Boo! that were there. Say this N-word, voted for Joe Biden. Boo!

I said that I got called a couple dozen times, but it was one instance by a couple dozen people. So. What was your reaction to being called a racial slur in that moment when you were being outnumbered? You were physically threatened. It didn't register with me as I'm being demonized for my race.

It didn't register with me at that time. Why? Because I'm exalted and I'm trying to just survive. I don't have time to process being called names i have time to process that but finally once we got an opportunity to get the building secure and it's finally a little bit of normalcy starting to restore itself starting to restore itself, I saw a familiar friend face, a close friend of mine, and we just looked at each other and we sat down and you kind of just like locked eyes and you're just like, what the hell happened?

What the hell just happened? And I told him my experience throughout the day and my experience about what happened, me being called a racial slur. And that's where the whole freaking phrase is this America? That's that's my phrase, you know, but I wasn't trying to say no damn catchphrase like whatever. You know, I didn't know that that was going to be used in the impeachment trial. I didn't know that. One of our Capitol officers who defended us that day was a longtime veteran of our force. For several hours straight, as the marauders punched and kicked and mauled and spit upon and hit officers with baseball bats and fire extinguishers, cursed the cops and stormed our Capitol, he defended us and he lived every minute of his oath of office.

And afterwards, overwhelmed by emotion, he broke down in the rotunda. And he cried for 15 minutes. And he shouted out, I got called an N-word 15 times today. And then he recorded, I sat down with one of my buddies, another black guy in tears, I sat down with one of my buddies. Another black guy in tears just started streaming down my face, and I said, what the F, man? Is this America? I wonder what it was like for you the next day, January 7th. You wake up.

You're angry. How are you feeling? You're angry. You're tired, but you're angry. Like I was. I was. You know, hell, it's probably people that haven't really processed what happened even now, two months later. It was a traumatic, traumatic,

historical event. You know, like, I don't think people realize the magnitude of this. So at this particular time, I had it at the 7th of January. I didn't have time to process my hurt, you know, my pain. I didn't have time to process my hurt, my pain. I didn't have time for that because it was right back to work and do your job. Let's keep this place safe. Y'all come back today if y'all want. Did you come back? Yeah, absolutely. And you know what? My co-workers did too. They fought their asses off and they was ready to do it again the next day. I'm sure you've given some thought to the fact that two of your colleagues ended up in so much pain after January 6th that they took their own lives, which would suggest that the psychological scars from that day are very, very deep. How do you make sense of that? Or is it not something anyone can make sense of?

You, I think it would be almost selfish to try to make sense of that. try to make sense of that. I can't say what somebody felt. I don't know. Just like somebody can't tell you what I felt. Right. Everybody fought their own personal hell that day.

Well, Officer Dunn, I know this has been an exhausting couple of months, and I really appreciate you spending so much time talking about this with us. And I want to thank you for your service. Thank you so much, Michael. I appreciate you. Thank you for having me. And anytime you want to talk, just give me a shout. There's no therapy like a good interview. Shoot, that might need therapy after this interview. Well, I'll talk to you soon. All right, Mike. Take care, man.

Bye. Bye. When we come back, an update from Officer Dunn. There we go. Officer Dunn, can you hear me? Hey, are we going to go through the Officer Dunn thing where I said, call me Harry? Are we going to go through that again? Yeah, we are.

Yeah, we got to go through that again. That's fine with me. That's fine with me. Well, how are you? How have you been since we last spoke? You know, I'm doing all'm, I'm doing all right. I'm different, but I'm okay though. You know, I am, uh, I'm definitely different.

What does that mean? I kind of remember like, you know, the last time we talked, I was telling my story and I was still confused and trying to process what happened, you know? I mean, hell, I still am. There's still a lot of unanswered questions about that day. The main difference I noticed in myself is I've transformed from this, you know, depressed. I was sad. I had a ton of anxiety, PTSD, which I guess that still exists.

But it's transformed to anger now. And that that anger is like fueling me even more to press on for accountability. This mission that I'm on to seek justice answers and accountability for what happened that day. Well, what does that look like this, this new phase of your experience and your journey here, the part where you're looking for justice and accountability? You know, I'm able to see members of the January 6th committee daily as I work at the Capitol. I'm able to tell them while I appreciate their hard work for this and seeking the truth. There has been nothing that's happened, that's been done, that's been assured that makes me feel comfortable that this will never happen again.

I mean, hell, you look at some of the sentences that these guys are getting. I just saw one sentence that was issued today. A guy's got 20 days in jail. This was a guy that was in Nancy Pelosi's office with his feet on her desk. He got 20 days in jail, but those 20 days are to be served on the weekend. So it sounds like you have been monitoring two things

as you've been trying to understand what justice might look like for the people who participated in January 6th. The first is the prosecution of those who actually stormed the Capitol. And the second is you're closely watching the January 6th investigation that's being conducted by Congress, which, among other things, is trying to understand who organized it and is responsible for it. So let me talk about that, because that committee actually called you as

a witness and i want to understand what that was like to go inside the building that you are paid to protect and become a participant in one of its proceedings and a witness yeah uh i mean just like the way you framed that it's's like, wow. When I got the request to testify before them, I, without a doubt, said, hell yeah. Yes. Because, you know, I felt like I was in a position to tell my account. And I also had questions which I asked the committee to get to the bottom of. also had questions, which I asked the committee to get to the bottom of. So one, I took it as a honor, and I took it as my duty to do so, you know? Well, that investigation, the January 6th committee, as I'm sure you know, because you're monitoring it, has become profoundly partisan. All but two House Republicans refused to participate in it. Yeah.

And beyond that, the Republican officials that the committee has subpoenaed to show up and provide testimony and materials, many of them have just refused those subpoenas. Some are now being held in contempt. I don't necessarily know. I don't necessarily know, though. How does that make you feel? So there you go. So I was, you know, they interviewed close to 300 people. But how many, you know, contempt charges have there been voted on? It's only been like three. So if you're looking at like three out of the 300 people they talked to, they're in perspective. The reason why the people not cooperating are a big deal. It's because it's Steve Bannon and Mark Meadows. Everybody knows those names. So of course, that's going to be a huge story. It could take away from what is actually going on with the committee's work. You know, I, so I, I'm not, I'm not discouraged by three people.

So it sounds like you have faith that the January 6th committee will deliver some meaningful report and that that will mean some form of justice? Maybe. I have no clue where I'm getting this hope from. There's nothing that's been done or said that gives me hope or faith or anything, but maybe that's just the kind of person I am. that gives me hope or faith or anything, but maybe that's just the kind of person I am. I do believe that they're doing their due diligence, not just because of their job, because they're personally invested in this also. They were close to being victims that day. If they investigate this and it turns out they say, hey, you know, the president said some incendiary things or, hey, these people did this, but everybody was within their rights to do this. After they investigate it and the truth is all out and there's no

punishment of it or something, I will be extremely disappointed because I disagree with that. But I cannot live with it not being investigated at all. I imagine that you have heard from a lot of people about what you have said about January 6th to us, to other journalists, to Congress in that testimony. And I wonder if you can describe some of the feedback that you have gotten over the past almost year. I'll focus on the positive.

Okay. But there was some negative things. But I'm gonna focus on the positive. The outpouring of love and support that I've gotten from people has just been overwhelming. It's great that you know, I get hundreds of messages on Twitter, in my inbox, and I get handwritten letters written to me and just do yeah oh it's been thousands and thousands of letters i've gotten i talked to michael finon uh the other day and he told me that he's who who's michael who's michael finon is the police officer who was dragged out into the crowd on january 6th and michael finon told told me that they stopped counting at 500,000 pieces of mail that they've gotten. And they stopped counting there.

But just the overwhelming support of people saying, don't listen to the haters. Hey, majority of Americans stand with you. And that's what I got to focus on. As you know, and this is part of the reason we're talking to you, it's been almost a year. Yeah. Since January 6th, it's kind of hard to believe it's been that long.

Yeah. And I am curious how present this feels in your day-to-day life. It feels very present. Mm-hmm. I mean, do you think about this every day? Do you think about it every hour? How big does this loom in your life? every day at the crime scene, you know, that's where I work. So yeah, it's fresh on my mind. And even without that, take that out of it. You said I've been following this and monitoring this. A lot of it ain't been by choice. Every day there's a new indictment. Every day there's a new batch of subpoenas that came out. So I couldn't escape it if I wanted to. Officer Dunn, after your experience on January 6th, you told us

something that I think about a lot. You asked yourself a question about what was occurring that day. And that question was, is this America? Yeah. And I'm wondering whether you've gotten any closer to answering that question. Was that America? And is it still America? It's a part of America. Reasonable people, majority of the people will say that that was terrible and that shouldn't have happened. But yes, it is a part of America, but it's not who we are as a whole. And I'm encouraged by that, you know. who we are as a whole.

And I'm encouraged by that, you know. Well, I very much want to thank you for your time once again. Thank you. And wish you the best. Happy holidays to you. Thank you. I appreciate it. Yeah.

Yeah. Harry, not Officer Dunn. Harry, happy holidays. Thank you. You too, not Officer Dunn. Harry, happy holidays. Thank you. You too, Michael. Thank you. Today's episode was produced by Jessica Chung, with help from Diana Nguyen and Luc van der Ploeg. It was edited by Michael Benoit, Lisa Tobin, Anita Bottageau, and Mark George, and engineered by Dan Powell and Corey Schreppel. That's it for The Daily. I'm Michael Barbaro.

See you tomorrow.