The Daily - A Conversation With President Zelensky

Episode Date: June 4, 2024

Five years ago, a TV personality and comedian, Volodymyr Zelensky, won the presidency in Ukraine in a landslide victory. When Russia launched a full-scale invasion of the country three years later, he faced the biggest challenge of his presidency and of his life. Despite initial success beating back one of the world’s largest armies, the tide has turned against him.Andrew E. Kramer, the Kyiv bureau chief for The Times, sat down with Mr. Zelensky to discuss the war, and how it might end.Guest: Andrew E. Kramer, the Kyiv bureau chief for The New York Times.Background reading: Read The New York Times’s interview with President Volodymyr Zelensky of Ukraine.Explaining the debate over Ukraine’s use of Western weapons.For more information on today’s episode, visit nytimes.com/thedaily. Transcripts of each episode will be made available by the next workday.

From The New York Times, I'm Sabrina Tavernisi, and this is The Daily. Five years ago, a TV personality and comedian, Vladimir Zelensky, won the presidency in Ukraine in a landslide victory. And then, after three years in office, he faced the biggest challenge of his presidency and of his life. This is only the beginning for Russia on the Ukrainian land. Russia is trying to defeat the freedom of all people in Europe. He rose to that challenge, beating back one of the world's largest armies. But now... We urgently need path-through systems and missiles for them. And you can imagine what

our soldiers feel when they simply have nothing to respond to enemy fire. The tide has turned against him. Please do not ask Ukraine when the war will end. Ask yourself, why is Putin still able to continue it? Today, my colleague Andrew Kramer sat down with Zelensky to talk about the fight of his life and how it might end. It's Tuesday, June 4th. So, Andrew, you've been covering Ukraine for many years, and you first met President Zelensky back in 2020, before Russia invaded. Tell us what he was like back then. There's just an incredible density of events that have filled Zelensky's tenure as president. I had an opportunity to interview President Zelensky in 2020, and this was during COVID,

so it was a Zoom interview. And it was really a different era for Zelensky. He had just come in as president. He was baby-faced. He was a fresh presence in Ukrainian politics. And at this moment, he was trying to reset relations with the United States. There had been tensions with the Trump administration, and he wanted to turn a new page in bilateral relations. And by tension with the Trump administration, you mean, of course, that Zelensky was in the middle of the first Trump impeachment. Zelensky was in the middle of the first Trump impeachment. We may all forget, but Trump made a phone call to Zelensky asking him to investigate not only Joe Biden, but also his son, Hunter Biden. And Trump hinted that the U.S. would actually withhold military aid if Zelensky didn't do that. That's right. The perfect phone call. That's what President Trump called it.

And during this time, Zelensky became briefly a known figure in the United States. But in Ukraine, he was known as a charismatic leader. He was a television personality before becoming president. And he had campaigned on an idea of a new morning in Ukraine. He would crack down on corruption. And a central element of his campaign had been to make peace with Russia. It's pretty interesting to remember, actually, that Zelensky started as someone who thought it was possible to make peace with Russia. It's pretty interesting to remember, actually, that Zelensky started as someone who thought it was possible to make peace with Russia.

That's who he was as a politician when he started out. And he had wide support. He was elected with 73% of the vote, so a lot of Ukrainians believed that he would actually be able to achieve this. But this had really fallen apart, and by the time I talked to him late in 2020, the prospects for these

negotiations were very unclear. And it was, for this reason, more important than ever for the Zelensky administration to shore up support from the United States. So that was 2020. A lot has changed. Clearly, at this point, Zelensky is not making peace with Russia anymore. You sat down with Zelensky a couple of weeks ago. Why did you want to talk to him again now? Well, it's a very interesting and critical moment in the war. The tide has turned in the war. Russia is pressing all along the front. And American aid had been stalled for six months, and it was passed recently in Congress, but it hasn't yet arrived. So it's a moment where Zelensky has his back against the wall. And what Zelensky has really zeroed in on is that the NATO countries in the United States should allow Ukraine to use

donated Western weaponry to hit targets inside of Russia. Now, of course, firing American weapons into Russia has really been a red line for the United States through the more than two years of this conflict, because Russia is a nuclear armed power. And there have always been fears in the background that this would be provocative, this would be escalatory, and would really raise the risk of a wider war. So we wanted to understand how Zelensky was making that argument for Biden to allow him to use American weapons to hit targets inside of Russia, despite the risks. So tell me about your interview. Start from the beginning. Are we recording now? I'm rolling. Well, we walked into the presidential administration through very tight security. It's always an interesting experience arriving at the presidential office in Kiev. There are sandbags and

anti-tank barriers around the building. Andrew, you'll sit up on the right, closest to the president. We made our way through the compound to a ceremonial reception hall. This was in a 19th century building with exotic plaster moldings on the walls called the House of Chimarras. Okay. Yeah. Okay?

It's okay for you. Yeah. And I went to interview Zelensky with my colleagues, Phil Pan, the international editor, and Bill Brink, the Ukraine editor. We waited there for about an hour before the president showed up. Hi. I'm sorry. I had a little bit of a break. Hi. President Nesimov, welcome. Hi, I'm Soryan.

Hi, Mr. President, nice to meet you. Welcome. When he walks into a room, you immediately notice that he's there, that he's a presence. Mr. President, I believe you know Andrew Kramer. He's our bureau chief here. Well, we had an interview, but it was by Skype in 2020, I think. Maybe, I'm sorry. It was in another life.

And he is a little bit shorter in real life than he might appear on television. And war has changed Zelensky. He looks haggard. And for the last two years, he's been bearded and wearing only military fatigues. In this case, it was a green T-shirt and green trousers. But he did seem to be holding up all right. He looked healthy and he was very energetic. Thank you so much for coming. We can sit? After some small talk in English.

Can we check Ukrainian translation? He switched into Ukrainian and we spoke with him through a translator. The Biden administration has prohibited Ukraine from using American-made weapons He switched into Ukrainian and we spoke with him through a translator. The Biden administration has prohibited Ukraine from using American-made weapons to strike inside Russia out of concern for escalation, including the risk of nuclear war. And our very first question was about this red line. Your government has urged a change to this policy given the situation on the battlefield right now. Why? Thank you so much. Well, first of all, Biden administration was really against the use of the Western weapons. That's important to mention. And he became quite animated.

He was gesturing, he was using his skills as a public speaker to convey what he felt was a very important point. They are striking with the missiles from Russian territory. So how can we protect ourselves from these strikes? And he was saying that it's really not possible for him to fight when the Russians can gather their forces and fly their airplanes in Russia and then attack Ukraine when he is not allowed to strike back as they gather across the border. They are in the closest villages and settlements to the border from Russia, knowing that we will not respond. not respond. He was conveying this sense of fighting with one hand tied behind his back,

and they have to endure the attacks from Russia, the bombings and the artillery strikes, and they're not allowed to hit back. That is their big, big advantage. And then he talked about the northeastern part of Ukraine, near Ukraine's second largest city, Kharkiv. It's been a target of Russian attack. It's bombarded almost daily. And it's now one of the focal points of the war. To defend Kharkiv, Ukraine has been forced to divert soldiers from elsewhere to fight this Russian incursion with the city at their backs. Russia is piling up the troops.

They are... Росія пілає вороги. І Зеленський казав, що його інтелігенція може бачити росіян, які відправляються з рейнів, військових і оборони, просто протягом кордону з Росією. Але він не може стріляти, через оборонну рестрикцію. І тому він сказав, що не має вибору, але бачити їх, щоб приготуватися до атак. Це значить, що завтра з квітами вони не приїдуть.

Вони приїдуть зі смертю до нас. Так? Так. І він мав дуже вибітну імідж для цього. Він бачив росіян, які збираються на цьому біді. Це означає, що завтра вони не дадуть нам квітів, вони дадуть нам мрію. І він знає, що вони не приїдуть з квітами, але з мрією. Якщо ми знаємо, що завтра вони не збираються з нами, але вбивають нас, And that he knows they aren't coming with flowers, but they're coming with death. If we know that tomorrow they are not celebrating with us, but they are killing us, why can't we use our weapons to demolish them in the point of collection of the arms? In other words, what he was saying was that they're basically sitting ducks. And if he could only use these big, powerful American weapons to shoot inside of Russia, you know, to take the war to Russians, then that could turn the tide of the war. But the Americans were just not letting him do that.

That's right. And he's also asking for very specific weaponry to do this. And it really sort of speaks to Zelensky's life over the past two and a half years. His country depends on an arsenal of weaponry from allies who have often been reluctant to provide it. And he finds himself often coming with what amounts to a shopping list to these Western nations, describing what his military needs in any particular circumstance.

We can get, in the end of the day, from NATO countries and what he told us, seven Patriot systems. Seven. He needed seven Patriot anti-aircraft missile systems. Our analysts told us we need 120, 130 F-16s. And 120 to 130 F-16s. And 120 to 130 F-16 airplanes. And these kind of requests, well, understandable.

His soldiers are engaged in combat. They're suffering casualties and civilians are being killed. So it's of dire importance to Zelensky. But these type of requests have sometimes graded on Western politicians. So much so that last summer, the British Minister of Defense had said in response and really in frustration that Zelensky, we're not Amazon, don't come with a shopping list. And this, of course, has been the view

of the US administration as well. Like, hey, guy, we just gave you $60 billion. Have some gratitude. Exactly. Okay, so it's clear why shooting American weapons into Russia would help Zelensky. But how is he viewing the risk of Russia retaliating and potentially setting off a nuclear war? Because of course, that's why the US drew this red line in the first place, right? Well, this is really the question of the hour on escalation. What do you say to the

people who argue that it is too risky to allow Ukraine to use these weapons inside Russia because of the risk of escalation? There are no risks of escalation. And when we asked about this, Zelensky asked us, in a sense, to get inside Putin's head a little bit and understand how he sees this playing out. to get inside Putin's head a little bit and understand how he sees this playing out. He was saying that Putin is an irrational actor, so obviously somebody to be feared.

He could use the nuclear weapon then, when he failed to conquer us during the first year of the war. But if he were to use nuclear weapons, he would have used them in the first year of the war, when Russia was down and Ukraine was up. And he was also saying that... He did not use it because he really loves his own life. Putin, he's irrational, but he would also fear for his own life.

And he understands that that's it. The door will be totally locked to Russia, fully locked, if he uses nuclear weapons. It's a fact. And no one will be able to do anything with that. Even his fans among the politicians, they won't be able to do anything because the use of the nuclear weapon is not the red line. This is a totally different level. That's it. This is the World War III.

Using a nuclear weapon would obviously be risking World War III, and Putin would understand the consequences of this. So these were Zelensky's explanations of why he felt the Russians were bluffing on the nuclear question. So Zelensky's conclusion was that the nuclear threat really isn't real, that it's not that much of a risk then for the West to let Ukraine cross that red line, use those American weapons to shoot at Russians inside Russia. Yes. And then last week, apparently Biden was convinced by Zelensky's arguments. The Biden administration, administration officials announced that American weapons could be used to hit targets inside of Russia. The decision to shift was weighing the risk of losing Ukraine's second largest city, Kharkiv, or having it bombed

into oblivion against a very small risk of a nuclear war, a large risk of losing a city and a small risk of nuclear war. But there were caveats. The American permission only allowed the use of American weapons on the border and in response to Russian military attacks across the border on Ukraine. And it didn't cover the most powerful rocket in the arsenal that the United States has provided, the Atakums guided rocket. So we won't see Ukrainian attacks on large Russian cities using American weapons such as rocket attacks on Moscow. But it is evidence that the Biden administration has shifted red line. And it seems significant, even if it's limited.

So the red line maybe isn't actually so red. What do you think this tells us? It tells us that Zelensky has been persuasive with his style of public performance, with his style of reaching out directly to voters in the countries that are allies with Ukraine, he has pushed Western leaders to shift on red lines and to continually provide more military support for his military and change their policies on how they assist Ukraine. But Zelensky has another challenge. It's something he doesn't talk about nearly as much, but it's just as important to winning the war. And this is a challenge inside Ukraine, in Ukrainian society.

We'll be right back. We'll be right back. So, Andrew, you said that there was another big potential problem for Zelensky, and that was a problem in Ukrainian society. Tell me about that. In short, it comes down to this. Not enough men want to fight, and Zelensky doesn't know how to make them. He has been drafting men in relatively small batches throughout the country.

And those who have signed up in the beginning, they are still serving at the front and have been fighting continuously for two years. So there's fatigue of soldiers who are fighting and in the Army, and there's also reluctance of those who have not yet been drafted to be drafted into the military. So, Andrew, I'm really thinking about this with you and remembering back to those early days when you and I were walking around the streets of Kiev and going into draft offices and seeing everybody who signed up, right? History professors. I think you even interviewed a male stripper at some point that we were kind of remarking on. Everybody wanted to fight. But that is very different now. What happened? What changed? It's now been two years, and there's been a lot of dying. If you look at the number of men serving in the Ukrainian military now, including some units like the National Guard and Border Guards, it's about one million men under arms.

Out of that one million, about 10% have died so far. We don't know the exact number of casualties in the Ukrainian army, but estimates are in the range of about 100,000 Ukrainian soldiers who have been killed over two years of war. Wow. One thing that I've found really remarkable when you travel around in villages and towns is that there are almost always dry flowers all over the roads because there are funerals so often and they put these flowers down and then they have processions. So military vehicles will come very slowly carrying the body in a hearse and people will get out of their cars and they'll kneel on the side of the road while this procession goes by. kneel on the side of the road while this procession goes by. And it's these sort of scenes that are really frightening to men who are eligible for the draft and who know what it would mean to be called up and sent into the trench fighting. And how many men are eligible for the draft? In Ukraine, there are three to four million men who could be drafted and could be serving in the military.

So they could be fighting a war of attrition with Russia. With a larger army, were they able to mobilize and equip these additional soldiers. But they haven't done this. And there's been quite a bit of reluctance. So they're at a moment now where they need soldiers. But the patriotic wave from earlier in the war, it has really washed over. And at this point, they're going to have to use the power of calling up men against their will in order to continue fighting this war. What does that look like in Ukraine now? Well, the call up of men from villages in some areas of Ukraine has been so great that

there are villages without men. There are villages where women, when they see the draft officials coming into town, they have swarmed these vehicles and are protesting to protect the few remaining men in these areas. There have been roadblocks put up in Kiev and other towns to stop cars and check draft registration documents on the street. And sometimes men are asked to report to basic training within a little of a week after being stopped at one of these surprise checkpoints. within a little of a week after being stopped at one of these surprise checkpoints. And this has been disruptive, and men are fearful of being caught in one of these roadblocks and approached by draft officials. And there are even social media apps that track where they're moving around town. For example, in Kiev, there's an app called Weather in Kiev,

and it'll say it's raining on a certain intersection. And that would mean that the draft officials are there and men should avoid that area. Interesting. And is Zelensky acknowledging this challenge? I mean, the challenge of trying to get men to fight in the war? Politically, Zelensky has disassociated himself from the challenges of the draft. He's said this is a problem for parliament or for the military. It's politically very unpopular. And he hasn't, for example, given major speeches calling on Ukrainians to sign up Це також дуже складно. Суспільство починає ділитися, хтось у війні, а хтось... Some people are at war, some people are not. That there had been some rift in society between men who are fighting and men who are not fighting.

It is really serious because the society begins to divide. And for somebody trying to steer a country in a war, this could be a problem. Divide. And for somebody trying to steer a country in a war, this could be a problem. This separation in the society, this division, at this moment, the enemy can use it. So given that fewer and fewer people want to fight, and war is obviously fundamentally about fighting, where is Ukrainian society's head right now on this war? And what is their appetite to stop it? I mean, do people want to call it quits, agree to just, okay, lob off a third of their territory and give it to Russia

and finally be done with this? Or is a full draft kind of mass mobilization finally going to be on the table? Well, this is what makes Zelensky's situation now so interesting, is he's in a bind. He's ruling a country that on the one hand, there's massive support for continuing the war. There's incredible anger at Russia, still seething anger at Russia over this war and no desire to negotiate. On the other hand, you have fewer and fewer people actually willing to fight. So Zelensky is caught between these two positions, and it's a difficult moment. Okay, to summarize here, Zelensky's been pushing on these red lines abroad. He's getting stuff. He made some progress last week, but it seems like it's not enough to

dig himself out of the hole he's in. And at home, there's kind of a similar dynamic. He's done these small batch drafts of men, but that also seems like it's not enough to really win. And now he's in this very hard place. And, you know, to put it very bluntly, it seems like a losing place. Well, this is probably the moment of most uncertainty for Zelensky and for Ukraine since the beginning of the war. There's no popular decision for Zelensky. Drafting more soldiers is unpopular. If he doesn't draft soldiers and settles in a ceasefire negotiation, that will also be unpopular. Zelensky is really squeezed between two fires. And this is all against the backdrop of Russia escalating an offensive that's expected to continue through the summer. How is he coping with this? This is a lot on his shoulders. Well, this is something that we asked in the interview. I just wanted to ask if you could say a few words about your own life as a wartime president.

And we talked to him on what was the 817th day of the war. I'm not afraid of working for many hours and to do my work and many other works. But the hardest is the emotions you understand that emotions he doesn't tell jokes like he used to one aspect of the war is that his life as a comedian has really come to a close and he's become a much more serious public figure and i wake up very early and he said that he deals with some of the the stresses of leadership by working out in the morning. I can see my wife more often. She's in the office. But I see my children not that much.

And he was most expressive and went on at some length about his family. He said that through the course of the war, his children have grownиться. Вот такой релакс. Он сказал, что в течение войны его дети выросли, его дочь сейчас 19 лет, его сын 11 лет. И он сказал, что он будет проводить время с сыном, работая на испанский домашний. Я не знаю испанский, но мне интересно, чтобы он проводил время с ним, что бы то ни было. to spend with him whatever he does. And these are the happiest moments, and here I can relax.

Andrew, how did you end the interview? I asked him what he would do after the war, and I thought his answer was telling. So, what are your plans after the war? So, what are your plans after the war? I would like, after the war, after the victory, because those are different things. He said there's a distinction between the end of the war and victory. I think that my plans depend on that. And then he described what would happen and victory. I think that my plans depend on that. And then he described what would happen after victory.

He would spend time with his family and his dogs. But what he left unsaid was what his life would look like if Ukraine lost the war. And what would it look like? One scenario is that he could die at the end of this. He's been the target of 10 assassination attempts, according to his government. Another possible outcome would be that Ukraine could lose a large chunk of its territory in a settlement agreement. So it's understandable why he didn't go into the details. But it was still remarkable that he acknowledged just for a moment this vulnerability,

this idea that there could be an outcome for Ukraine other than victory. Andrew, thank you. Thank you, Sabrina. We'll be right back. Here's what else you should know today. On Sunday, Mexican voters elected the country's first woman and first Jewish president, Claudia Sheinbaum. I will become the first Mexican president. It was a landslide victory for the 61-year-old climate scientist and former mayor of Mexico

City. Sheinbaum, a leftist, had campaigned on a promise to continue the legacy of Mexico's current president, Andres Manuel López Obrador. Gracias a la felicitación del presidente Andres Manuel López Obrador. Un hombre excepcional. Under Obrador, millions of Mexicans were lifted out of poverty, but he was also criticized for failing to control rampant cartel violence.

The election was the largest in Mexico's history, with the highest number of voters taking part. And it puts a Jewish leader at the helm of one of the world's largest, predominantly Catholic, countries. at the helm of one of the world's largest, predominantly Catholic, countries. And President Biden is expected to sign an executive order on Tuesday, allowing him to temporarily seal the U.S. border with Mexico when the number of migrant crossings exceed a certain threshold. The order would suspend protections for asylum seekers in the U.S.

and represents the most restrictive border policy instituted by Biden, who is under intense political pressure to address illegal migration. Polls suggest that there is growing support, even inside the president's own party, for more aggressive border measures. The executive order is likely to be challenged in court. border measures. The executive order is likely to be challenged in court. Today's episode was produced by Nina Feldman, Claire Tunisketter, Rob Zipko, and Diana Nguyen,

with help from Michael Simon-Johnson. It was edited by Lisa Chow, contains original music by Marian Lozano and Alicia Baetube, and was engineered by Chris Wood. Our theme music is by Jim Brumberg and Ben Lansford of Wonderly. Special thanks to Sashko Chubko. that's it for the daily i'm sabrina tavernisi see you tomorrow