The Daily - An Interview With George Papadopoulos

Episode Date: September 10, 2018

George Papadopoulos, a former campaign aide to President Trump, was sentenced on Friday for deceiving the F.B.I. about his relationship with a person thought to be a Russian operative who had offered to arrange a meeting between Mr. Trump and the Russian president, Vladimir V. Putin. Guest: Mark Mazzetti, a Washington correspondent for The Times, who spoke with Mr. Papadopoulos before his sentencing. For more information on today’s episode, visit nytimes.com/thedaily.

From The New York Times, I'm Michael Barbaro. This is The Daily. Today. On Friday, a former Trump campaign aide was sentenced for lying to the FBI about his relationship with a suspected Russian operative who offered to arrange a meeting between Trump and Putin. My colleague Mark Mazzetti spoke to George Papadopoulos for the first time ahead of his

sentencing. It's Monday, September 10th. George, thanks for doing this. Thank you so much for hosting me, Mark. So he's never actually spoken about this. That's right. You were an advisor to the Ben Carson campaign. How did you end up with Trump?

I joined the Carson campaign just for a couple months, two or three months. So where do you start this conversation with him? Start at the beginning of how he got into the campaign. The campaign I really wanted to join from the onset of the presidential campaign season was actually the Trump campaign. I saw a winner right away when Mr. Trump came down the escalators and he had a simple message for the voters. Trump was his first choice anyway, but he didn't get really a callback until the spring of 2016 when he's called on fairly hastily to join the campaign. Were you surprised when you got a

call to interview for the Trump campaign? I wasn't really surprised because I let them know very early on. I think my work in the Middle East and in the Eastern Mediterranean, publications I've written and conferences I've spoken at, really spoke volumes about my particular expertise. So I wasn't really shocked, but of course I was honored. I mean, he's someone who certainly exudes a great deal of confidence that it was his right to be on the campaign, that why wouldn't they have picked him, I think. So he says he wasn't surprised, but it was a thrill for him to be joining the campaign. The memo that your lawyers have put together says that you were told pretty early on in the campaign that one of the goals of the campaign was to foster better relations with Russia. And what's his mindset as he begins to work on the Trump campaign?

What's his goal? I mean, I think Mr. Trump throughout the campaign season was very vocal about his desire to have at least a working relationship with President Putin. He's told early on by senior members of the campaign. My supervisor during my interview with him over Skype told me that this is part of what this campaign's about. That one of the big campaign talking points is that we should develop better relations with Russia. talking points is that we should develop better relations with Russia. Did you broadly agree with that theme that the U.S. should try to have better relations with Russia, the sort of Trump view at the time, which was really different than all of his Republican opponents? It was. At the time, it seemed that there were two countries that really wanted to

combat the threat of terrorism in the Middle East. And it necessarily wasn't NATO at the time. It was Russia and Mr. Trump. And he thought that it was a good thing. So I thought that, of course, given that the United States and Russia are the two most nuclear-armed countries in the world. That you had a Republican candidate talking about a rapprochement with Russia, that there were things that they could work on together, specifically terrorism.

And how does Papadopoulos want to fit into this strategy that Trump has for dealing with Russia? So he admits he has, up to that point, almost zero experience dealing with Russia. It was never a focus of any of his work at Washington think tanks, etc. He didn't speak the language and nothing in his background would have set him up for this to be the Russia guy on the Trump campaign. And then sort of fate intervened.

And Papadopoulos saw an opportunity to bring something tangible to the campaign. Pretty soon after you're named as an advisor, you're reconnected with Joseph Massoud. What did you know about Massoud? And who is this person who Papadopoulos connects with? And what's the story there? So I met Massoud for the first time in my life, actually, in Italy, in the beginning of March of 2016, shortly after I understood that I would be joining the Trump campaign.

It's a professor named Joseph Mifsud, who is Maltese, and he had been working in London for some time. You know, he seemed to be somebody that I thought was very well-connected and could perhaps help me expand connections into different parts of the world that I necessarily had no connections in. As soon as Papadopoulos is named publicly as an advisor,

that's when Mifsud takes a particular interest in befriending George Papadopoulos. They set up meetings, they communicate frequently. He decided to present himself as some sort of interlocutor between the campaign and various foreign governments. And then a couple other players kind of come into the picture. The woman's name is Olga. There's a woman that Mifsud introduces him to in London, who is introduced at the time as... The niece of President Putin.

Vladimir Putin's niece. Now, Putin doesn't have a niece, but Papadopoulos didn't know that. And he and Olga start communicating. She was detailing how she had high-level connections and that she would be in touch with everyone from Moscow to London to have this meeting occur. He's getting to the person who can get him to the person who can get him to the person who can ultimately get him to Putin, where he can then arrange a meeting

for Putin and Trump. Then there's a meeting in Washington. Yes. And this is the first meeting of the foreign policy team. During that meeting, what happens? The first big meeting of the group is at the end of March 2016. And during that meeting, Papadopoulos speaks up. And elucidated that I could potentially organize a meeting between candidate Trump and President Putin. And then he starts looking around

to sort of see how everyone's reacting. The reaction was mixed. I mean, you know, of course, there were some scholars from conservative think tanks at the time and the Heritage Foundation and others that, you know, nodded in disapproval. They shook their heads.

But for the people he was most focused on... But it seemed at the meeting that candidate Trump was at least open to this. He wasn't committed either way, but he nodded and deferred to Jeff Sessions, who I remember being actually quite enthusiastic about a potential meeting between then-candidate Trump and Putin. You clearly left that meeting with the signal

that you were to pursue this. That was my impression. And that's what you did? That's exactly what I did, yeah. In his telling, he was given a clear message after that meeting that he should pursue this and try to set the meeting up. And in late April, you meet again with Nefzad. Yeah.

Was Olga there? No. It was just the two of you? Just the two of us. So now we get to a point in the story that is the most significant parts of the Papadopoulos narrative and one of the things I most wanted to talk to him about. At that infamous meeting is where he told me that he had information that the Russians had thousands of Hillary Clinton's emails. I never heard the word Podesta, DNC.

I just heard Hillary Clinton's emails. They said actually her emails. Her emails, yeah. He stated in a categorical fashion that the Russians have thousands of Hillary Clinton's emails. Is this, to our knowledge, the first time that someone on the Trump campaign was told about these hacked emails? Yes. So what's your reaction to that? So, of course, I was shocked. He's talking about a potential crime, or it was a crime. But

I had also heard rumors in the media at the time. I think even somebody on Fox News the same day or the day before was talking about it. On one hand, he says that it was sort of in keeping with some of the rumors at the time. But he certainly, you know, he said it was somewhat shocking because we are talking about a criminal act here. And maybe that's a little bit of in retrospect now that it's so many months later that we're all talking about this as criminal activity. So you suspect that there's something not above board about what he's talking about? No, of course it's shocking. Not above board about what he's talking about? No, of course it's shocking.

But like I said, there were rumors at the time. Of course, rumors are rumors. But when you hear somebody state clearly that he has intimate information, it's quite different than to hear a rumor. It sounds like it didn't quite sink in for him when he first heard this, that if the Russians have emails, that that means they might have stolen them and that means that that might, it sort of didn't put together all the pieces. That's right. So you meet with Mifsud, he tells you this, and what did you do with the information? you this? And what did you do with the information? One of the things I really wanted to hear from him was, who did you tell about this? You know, this is right around the time you're helping craft a foreign policy speech for Trump, etc. You're constantly talking with campaign officials. You're emailing with Stephen Miller. You're emailing with Corey Lewandowski, who was at the time as the campaign chairman. This is a young foreign policy advisor trying to

gain prominence inside a sort of freewheeling campaign. And then he's told that the Russians have a lot of damaging information about Trump's opponent. And so I want to know, did he tell anyone in the campaign? Did you ever mention to anyone in the campaign about the emails? And I have no recollection of ever discussing emails with anyone on the campaign at all. Zero. He said he has no recollection of telling anybody. He's not saying he did or didn't tell anyone. He's saying, I have no recollection.

That's right. But, you know, so you don't remember. You don't remember ever telling anyone, emailing anyone, messaging anyone, hey, there's some bunch of dirt about Hillary Clinton. And I, you know, pushed him on this. But he said. Anything like that. I have no recollection of that at all, no.

I've got no recollection of it. But we do now know that there were others he told. Shortly after that, you're in a upscale bar in London talking to Australia's top diplomat in the UK. How did that come about? In May of 2016, so shortly afterwards, he was in a meeting, the top Australian diplomat in the UK, a man named Alexander Downer. This meeting was supposedly about the US-Australia relationship, which of course I had no background in whatsoever. The Australian wanted to meet him, in part because, you know, at this point, the foreign

diplomats were still trying to figure out who's on this Trump campaign, who are these advisors, who is George Papadopoulos? So they meet in a bar. What were you guys drinking? I think I had a gin and tonic. They start drinking gin and tonics. So in interviews, Downer has said that you brought up the Russian dirt on Hillary Clinton. We now know over the course of that meeting, Papadopoulos told Alexander Downer what Mifsud had told him, that the Russians had

all this dirt, damaging information, emails of Hillary Clinton. But... I don't remember talking about that with him at all. So you don't remember at any point in that meeting talking about Russia dirt, Hillary Clinton? I don't have, no, I don't remember that at all, actually. He says he does remember other aspects of that meeting, but doesn't remember the part where he told Downer about this information. It was quite shocking when I read it, actually, in the New York Times for the first time. Our own reporting first revealed this, that Downer's information made its way to Australia,

and then eventually to the Australian embassy in Washington and eventually to the FBI. And that was the reason why the FBI launched its investigation into possible connections between the Trump campaign and Russia. He writes cables back to his government describing the meeting. And in the cables, he gives specific information that you guys discussed, not only that the Russians have dirt on Hillary, but that Mifsud had actually offered help in coordinating the release of the emails. That this is what came up in the meeting, that you told him everything Mifsud had told you. And that it was not just, hey, we've got some emails.

It's, hey, let's work together to release the emails. Is that an accurate description? I have no recollection of talking about that at all. And then... I had a meeting with the Greek foreign minister in Athens. And this is particularly interesting. He says that sometime later he did tell the Greek foreign minister. And you tell him what?

You tell him what? Something along the lines, as far as I remember, that they have dirts or they have her emails, something like that. They have her emails, something like that. One of the things that seems the most puzzling out of this whole Trump-Russia story is that you're told about this pretty explosive information. It is information that would no doubt help the Trump campaign. You wanted to help the Trump campaign you wanted to help the Trump campaign You were very eager to gain a cement a place in the campaign And yet you say you didn't tell anyone about it

But you did tell this Australian diplomat and the Greek foreign minister seems strange for people to sort of I Allegedly told the Australian and I certainly told the Greek foreign minister. But let's not forget, though, at the time, I was shuffling between Europe quite frequently. I wasn't at a campaign headquarters where I would have the opportunity to sit down and probably talk with campaign heads. So actually, I don't find it that shocking that I wouldn't have told them something like this, considering my interactions with the campaign was, as I stated, probably 99% done via email.

And Mark, just to be clear, what would be the significance if he had told the Trump campaign that would be different from telling, say, the Greek foreign minister? Because then you go more directly into the central question of the Mueller investigation. Did the Trump campaign know what the Russians were doing,

know that the Russians had an effort underway to damage Hillary Clinton, to disrupt the American election? And were they coordinating with the Russians? Maybe if the call between myself and Stephen Miller occurred that day. I mean, what was interesting in this interview I had was he said he was supposed to have a phone call that day with Stephen Miller, the senior Trump policy advisor for the campaign now in the White House. And, you know, the call ended up not happening.

And he says, I would have told him, but the call never went through and you never know. And as he put it, you know, sort of fate intervened. It's how fate works sometimes, I guess. I guess. So a couple months later, it's now January of 2017, and Trump's in office.

That's seven days after the inauguration. You get a knock on the door at your mother's house, I believe. What happened? The FBI comes knocking. So I had, I was in D.C. for the inauguration. I had, you know, attended a couple parties there with Anthony Scaramucci and Reince Rivas. You know, I had been in touch with the transition team, with Michael Flynn, KT McFarland, Steve Bannon. So the night of January 27th,

in my mind, I was expecting to prepare myself for what I would be talking about to gain an administration position. So they knock on your door. What do they say? Can you come downtown? Yeah, you know, they tell me something along the lines of you're helping national security,

we need your help. You know, in my mind, I had nothing to hide. You know, I never felt that I did anything against my country's interests. Eventually, the interview turns towards his interactions with Joseph Mifsud, the Russians, and questions about what he may or may not have been told about dirt. So why didn't you tell the truth? Let's see. The meeting, the interview, there was the interrogation. In his recollection, what does he tell the FBI when they ask him about this?

He admits he lied. George said he lied about, in part, the timing and the content of his interactions with Mifsud. He downplayed them when, in fact, the FBI knew that they were extensive and that Mifsud had approached him because he was part of the Trump foreign policy team. And why does he say that he lies to the FBI? Because as far as I could remember at the time, it's hard to pin exactly what was going through my mind over an FBI interview. I wanted to distance myself as much as possible and Trump himself and the campaign from what was probably an illegal action or dangerous information. He said he did it to protect Trump and he did it to protect the campaign,

to distance the new administration from Russia and the Russia investigation. And does that signal to you that he thinks the Trump campaign did something wrong when it comes to Russia? I asked him, do you think that the Trump team did anything wrong? Do you think that there's something to the bottom of this investigation? And he said, I have no idea about anything about that. Like, I can only speak about myself. And I'm paying the price for my mistakes. And if anyone else made mistakes, then they're going to have to pay a price too.

So you wanted a job and you wanted to protect the campaign you wanted to protect the new president is that something you regret my biggest regret actually is not telling the US intelligence community what myths had told me that actually the minute after I left that meeting in London with him. The stupidest thing I did was actually gossiping about it with foreign diplomats, allegedly the Australian and for sure with the Greek, and not telling the U.S. intelligence community until I was interviewed. Looking back, we all make mistakes in life, you know, and that's, I really hope for, to redeem myself in the eyes of my, you know, fellow countrymen here in the United States,

but I do really regret not telling the FBI immediately after that, because I probably would have saved a lot of problems for the world at this point, considering I was perhaps the light that created this conflagration. Mark, when Pompadopoulos says, I have no recollection of telling the campaign about the emails, do you believe him? Do you buy it? On one hand, it's hard to believe. If you have been given this information and you're clearly trying to make your name in the campaign,

it seems that it would be something you would certainly pass on to your bosses in the campaign because it might, you know, raise your stock. That being said, there is no public evidence that he told anyone on the campaign about the dirt that he had learned about. What is not in dispute is the fact that he played this sort of outsized role in this whole episode, and the fact that it was this information, when passed in a bar in London to an Australian diplomat, that ultimately was one of the chief reasons that the FBI, and now Mueller, are in the middle of all this.

George, thanks very much. Mark, thanks so much. Appreciate it. On Friday, George Papadopoulos was sentenced to 14 days in prison for lying to the FBI, becoming the first Trump advisor to be sentenced in the special counsel investigation. This is an ambitious guy who wants to be a player in the Trump campaign. Trump had chosen him as part of his foreign policy team. On Sunday, in an interview with CNN's State of the Union, Senator Mark Warner, the ranking Democrat on the Intelligence Committee,

said he found it hard to believe that Papadopoulos did not tell the Trump campaign about Russia's possession of damning emails from Hillary Clinton. It just stretches, I think, most people's credibility that if Papadopoulos had this knowledge and he wanted to try to further ingratiate himself with the campaign, that he wouldn't have shared that with somebody on the campaign. We'll be right back. Here's what else you need to know today. The chairman of CBS, Les Moonves, resigned on Sunday night amid new allegations of sexual assault by six women in the TV industry,

which followed similar allegations by six different women in July. On Sunday, the New Yorker's Ronan Farrow reported that the six new women came forward in part because of their frustration with how slowly CBS has been responding to the original allegations. And the Times reports that the Chinese government

is detaining thousands of Muslims in a system of internment camps, in what former detainees describe as an attempt to strip them of their faith. China has long sought to restrict the practice of Islam in the Western region of the country, where there are millions of ethnic Muslims. But the internment camps represent a new chapter in that crackdown.

In response, the Chinese government said that the camps are mild corrective institutions that provide job training. That's it for The Daily. I'm Michael Barbaro. See you tomorrow.