The Daily - At the Super Bowl, It’s Nice Guy vs. Underdog

Episode Date: February 8, 2026

For football fans nationwide, this year’s Super Bowl between the New England Patriots and the Seattle Seahawks is inherently exciting. For non-football fans like the Daily host Michael Barbaro — not so much.In this episode of “The Sunday Daily,” Natalie Kitroeff — who is a big Philadelphia Eagles fan — makes it her mission to draw Barbaro and other non-football fans into the excitement and drama of this year’s matchup through storytelling. She talks with two reporters who cover the teams for The Athletic: Chad Graff, a senior writer covering the Patriots; and Michael-Shawn Dugar, who covers the Seahawks.On Today’s Episode:Chad Graff is a senior writer for The Athletic, covering the New England Patriots.Michael-Shawn Dugar is a staff writer for The Athletic, covering the Seattle Seahawks.Photo Illustration by The New York Times; Images: Greg M. Cooper/AP; Steph Chambers/GettyFor more information on today’s episode, visit nytimes.com/thedaily. Transcripts of each episode will be made available by the next workday.  Subscribe today at nytimes.com/podcasts or on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. You can also subscribe via your favorite podcast app here https://www.nytimes.com/activate-access/audio?source=podcatcher. For more podcasts and narrated articles, download The New York Times app at nytimes.com/app. Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

Michael. Hey. Welcome. Take a seat. Happy to have you here. This is not a chair I'm used to sitting in the one opposite. I'm the host. The host.

Welcome to the Sunday Daily. I'm Natalie Ketrow-F, which you know. I do. I'm saying that for the people at home. And you are... Michael Barbaro. You're Michael Barbaro. That's right.

You may know that I'm a sports fan. You know that one. I like all of them, but football is my... absolute favorite sport is something I've loved since I was little. Do you know what my favorite team is? I don't. You don't? No. Even though I incessantly talk about it all the time, you just don't listen. Okay, the Philadelphia Eagles. Wow, okay, that's a surprise. The Philadelphia Eagles, I am obsessed with the Philadelphia Eagles. I think about it constantly. Football is just a really big part of my life. you are not a big football fan.

That's a true statement. I have never heard you talk with passion about football. No, you haven't. My passions lie elsewhere. Okay, so today is Sunday, February 8th. I assume you're aware that the Super Bowl is tonight. I am. Okay.

Seahawks versus the Patriots. Oh, good. I was going to pop quiz you on that. Yeah, sorry. I will say... Sorry to disappoint you with my knowledge. Look, I'm happy. We're not starting from zero.

Let me ask, are you planning to watch this game? I wasn't, but I have been invited to a kid-friendly football watching party with the asterisk that it's being advertised as also a K-pop Demon Hunter sing-along. Oh, okay. So the game's going to be on. Uh-huh. And it's going to be kind of in the background for me. Okay.

So I want to try to change your relationship to this game on Sunday to make it less about K-pop Demon Hunters and more about the football. What I know about you is that you love stories. Am I right about that? Yes, that's where my passion lies. I knew it. Okay. So I have this idea because I know you're not the only person with a kind of tepid relationship to the game on Sunday to get you to care by. telling you stories.

Speak in my language. To use your love language, which is daily episodes, we all know. This is smart. So we want to tell you two stories today about the two teams

that are involved in the game, the Patriots and the Seahawks. And to help me tell those stories, I reached out to two writers from The Athletic, which is a sports publication owned by the Times Company. Chad Graff writes about the Pats.

Now I'm teaching you slang. Yep, no one of Patriots. Patriots, love it. And Michael Sean Dugar covers the Seahawks. And I am feeling pretty confident that we can get you, Michael Barbaro, to care about this game,

to engage with it, to actually enjoy it. Mm-hmm. What do you think? I think it's entirely possible. You will achieve these ends. Some skepticism. No, no, I can get there.

Okay. Completely. Good. Well, we're going to check in on that at the end of the show. I look forward to that. You should hit the theme music now. That's what we're doing.

Okay. Chad Graff, thank you for being here. Thank you for having me. You cover the Patriots for the athletic. How long have you been covering football? I've been covering football for a decade. Perfect. Okay.

We came to the right place then because I have been on the hunt for a story about the Patriots, a character, an event that could make somebody who does not care about the Super Bowl, care about the Super Bowl. I've looked at their quarterback. I have thought about Patriots history.

I've looked at a lot of places, and I think the guy that we should talk about today, the main character of this game on that side of it for me is the Patriots head coach. I'm proud to be your coach, fellas. Mike Vrable. Let's have some fun. Let's communicate, celebrate together. What you guys have done is you believe and you trusted in the identity. My sunglasses are too big. Does that mean that my face lost weight?

I can't wait to tell people I get to coach the Patriots. It's always about the team. Team on three. One, two, three. So what do you think of that, just to start out? I like where your head's at. And I think what's interesting here is Mike Vrable has absolutely remade not just the culture of the Patriots, but the personality. He has remade who the Patriots are and how we perceive them.

Yes, and I would say somehow that is what I am experiencing. The thing about Mike Vrable is that I think I like him, which I am kind of. kind of shocked about because I, like, I think much of America do not like the Patriots as a general rule. But there's something about this guy that has me questioning that. So I want to talk about how that shift may have happened for me and maybe for other people. Just to set the scene, and I know this may be a lot, but I want to ask you to summarize the story of the Patriots over, like, the last 25 years or so. Okay. So to appreciate this flip that the Patriots have made with Mike Vrabel,

I think you need to go all the way back to the start with Bill Belichick. I'm just telling you now, seven games isn't going to win anything in this league. Okay, it's just not enough. It's not anywhere near enough. We got a long way to go. For the last 25 years, the Patriots essentially were run by one person, Bill Belichick. Look, fellas, I am sick of this. Okay.

What Bill Belichick did was incredible in terms of the success. that he brought to this team. I can't stand it. Run it again. Hold up and run it again, Brady. For Patriots fans, he was unbelievable. Six Super Bowls brought them so much success over two different dynasties. They won so much.

But the national perception for the last 25 years has essentially been that the Patriots are the evil empire, run by this gruff, no-nonsense person where nothing was fun and nothing was enjoyable. It's good to win. You know, we've got a long way to go. Yeah, he's like Darth Vader. Darth Vader just in a cutoff hoodie on the sideline,

arms crossed, scowling, looking miserable, until or unless the Patriots won the Super Bowl. Can't relax, sir. Can't relax. I mean, they went about winning in such a kind of cold way. Like, it was like a machine was running when they were winning. It didn't feel good when they won. We need to make a lot of things.

We've got to clean up. Like five wins. isn't going to be enough this year. Okay, it's not going to be anywhere near enough. So we still got a long way to go. Under Bill Belichick, the Patriots were a machine. That's exactly what they were. Those Patriots were only interested in success

when it came to winning that final game, hoisting the Lombardi Trophy as Super Bowl champions. I will say, as a person who is not from New England, it was a big part of the reason why the franchise was so easy to hate. I mean, it wasn't just that they were so annoyingly unstoppable for so long. But that the guy that was in many ways defining the team's brand, defining what you thought of when you thought of the Patriots was Bill Belichick, the most gruff, unrelatable person that you could imagine being the face of your team. Well, and sports are supposed to be fun. Like, half the reason that you get into it and you watch these big games is because it's fun.

And instead of sports being fun, it was only winning as fun. Nothing else mattered. nothing else was to be celebrated. They would go in the locker room after these wins in October and November and December. Belichick would stand at the front of the room and say in front of everybody to Tom Brady. This throw that you missed right here, the quarterback at Foxborough High School up the road could make this one. And so it was total tough love. There was not a big celebration of what you just accomplished or, oh man, how fun was that game?

Immediately it was, if you don't improve, if you don't turn things around, we are not going to get where we want to go, which is the Super Bowl. Right. So you're saying it wasn't just external. Internally, inside the locker room, the way that Belichick related to his players, it was all about tough love. It was tough love.

And for a long time, that was perfect. Like, I don't want to scratch over this part of it. The Patriots won so many games because Belichick was the perfect coach in that moment for that team. Tom Brady was at his best with a chip on his shoulder, and Belichick took a shovel to that.

Settle down, buddy. Step into the third. bro. Okay? You're going to right of hands. Throw to Kevin out here? I got drilled when I threw it. And that worked.

It was so good for them for so long until it wasn't. Brady started to feel like, all right, man. I've won MVP's in Super Bowls. Like, get off me to the point where in Brady's last season, the team's off to this great start. Tom, Tom, Tom, how's it going? What's going on? And what does Tom Brady say?

I'm the most miserable 8-0 quarterback in the NFL. And so that's a little window into how everybody was feeling toward the end of the Bill Belichick era. Okay, so Belichick is all over Brady, despite the fact that he's arguably the best quarterback ever. I mean, he couldn't beat the Eagles backup quarterback in the Super Bowl, but he's still probably the goat. I can understand how, given Brady's record, that kind of coaching style would wear

him down. It obviously did wear him down. Totally. And to that end, Brady eventually said, I'm out of here. I loved my time with New England. I can't do this anymore. And he went to Tampa Bay where they've got this fun coach

and it was like a fun atmosphere. And what happened? And when the Super Bowl ended, the ball would be on the hands of Tom Brady. He went on to win a Super Bowl and I think that kind of proved this way that Bill Belichick did, it's not the only way to have success.

Right. And at the same time, things change in New England for the worst, right? The Patriots start to struggle. Their record gets worse and worse. And we know that eventually, the team decides to move on. So they move on from Bill Belichick after the 20-23 season. Robert Kraft, the owner, pivots to his handpick successor,

which is Gerard Mayo. He's this former player of Belichick, grew up under Belichick. Everything about him screamed Belichick, and it does not work. May, rolling, throwing back. It goes horrendously bad. They win four games, and that is when the owner, Robert Kraft, makes this, frankly, bold and startling decision and says, I know who the right guy is.

It's my great honor to introduce you all to the next head coach of the New England Patriots, Mike Vrable. It's Mike Vrable. I'm excited, energetic, positive, looking to build and get to work. Thank you. And what do we know about Vrable when he steps up to this position? So Mike Vrable was, he comes from Northeast Ohio, stays there, plays at Ohio State,

goes on to the NFL. At some point in the NFL, in the middle of his career, he joins the Patriots and who's the coach of the Patriots, Bill Belichick. Oh, wow. He actually played for Belichick. He played for Belichick and won three Super Bowls with Bill Belichick. He caught touchdown passes. But he was also a physical, intimidating linebacker.

Mike Frable, the Patriots Sack leader. When his playing career is over and he determines, I want to be a coach, Bill Belichick now. naturally offers him a chance. Hey, Mike Vrable, come work for me and I will teach you how to be a coach. But Mike Vrable looks at it and says, I play for Bill Belichick. I saw what that's like. Now I want to go elsewhere and see if there's another way that better fits my personality. And what does that look like for him? So this is where things get fun.

That's some fun. Enjoy it. Mike Vrable does not do things like Bill Belichick. At the end of every game where Bill Belichick would, you know, tell his team, you didn't do a good enough job, even though we won. You suck, basically. Kind of, yeah, even though they were winning. Mike Vrabel sprints after every game, and you might see this after the Super Bowl, and it might look a little weird.

He sprints as fast as he can, so that he can be the first one back to the Patriots locker room. He stands there outside the locker room so that he can give a hug and a handshake to every single player walking off. Oh, my God. He's doing chest bumps, and they're jumping up and down, and he's got secret handshakes with different guys. This is the fun part of the Patriots.

After a recent playoff win that helped get the Patriots to this Super Bowl, he goes in for this big hug with one of their top players, Milton Williams. And Milton Williams popped you into lip. And the face mask of Milton Williams smacks into his nose, cuts up his lip, and he's bleeding out of his lip after the hug. And look how happy Mike Frable is. And what does he do? he kind of goes over and taps it and shows it to the player and gives him another big hug.

He'll come over there. He knocked the living shit out of it. Like, you see what I'm willing to do for you. But I am afraid to spill a little bloody. God, damn. Okay, but I want to tell you this. This is like a full contact guy. He's like willing to get in the scrum. He's hugging so hard that he's literally bleeding.

I mean, I have to ask, like, did Bill Belichick ever hug another human being on camera ever in his entire career? I'm not joking. I actually am wondering, do we know? He was not hugging after a week five win over Kansas City the way that Mike Vrable is. With Mike Vrable, the Patriots have celebrated every step along this magical journey that has them now in the Super Bowl today. And I don't want to give you the impression that this guy is just like all hugs and handshakes either. You get him out on the field on the sidelines and his coaching chops have actually been really impressive too. Around the league, everybody considers him a game management.

which is part of the reason that the Patriots are going to the Super Bowl. And, of course, that's another reason why his players love him. So I want to ask you about something that you raised at the beginning of this conversation, which is just the way in which Vrable may be changing America's relationship with the Patriots. I think a lot of people, maybe by default, are resistant to rooting for the Patriots to win yet another Super Bowl. They have won so many of them. And yet, if I'm honest, I find it very, and I want to choose my words carefully here, compelling. It's compelling that this version of them has made it to this point. They aren't the joyless, mechanical patriots that they once were. And

it seems like this new iteration of them, this new, and I can't believe I'm saying this, more lovable iteration of them, that seems to come down to the influence of Mike Rabel. Look, if people want to look at this and say, the Patriots have won more than anybody, screw these guys. I get it. All of that makes sense.

But this is so different than the Patriots you would think of in your head. This team does not have the big stars. The Patriots have a lot of guys that most people just couldn't recognize, And that little rag-tag bunch because of Mike Vrable and because of so many things is now here in the Super Bowl today. It's New England's version of Ted Lassau, I have to say. It's impossible to not think of this guy as someone who, even though it pains me, you actually might want to root for. So you've made me more Pat's curious than I've ever been, Chad. It's this brand that has won so much and has been so hateable for.

for so long, suddenly being, dare we say, kind of fun. I love it. Chad, thank you so much. Thank you for having me. We're going to take a short break, and when we come back, what everybody loves, a classic underdog story. We'll be right back. I'm here now with Michael Sean Dugar, Mike.

Thanks for coming on. Thank you for having me. I really appreciate it. Okay. No one can argue with. rooting for the underdog. And my feeling is there may be no bigger underdog in the NFL than the quarterback of the Seattle Seahawks, Sam Darnold. Throwing. Throw it in zone. Tarnold throws. Cornel, nine of nine on the night.

Touchdown Seattle. Touchdown. Darnal on the move. Darnal throws and he's got him in. Touchdown. Yeah. Sam is without question the biggest underdog in here because everyone has seen him fail. Yeah, just too many mistakes on my end. That's the story. He's the guy getting off the mat. That's just a terrible throw by Sam Darnel. And we saw him all get knocked to the mat.

Sam Darnold been struggling the last two weeks. Five interceptions in the last two games. Let's talk about how Sam Darnold, this perennial underdog, this person who has been vulnerable in front of us, in front of America for so many years now, ended up in the Super Bowl and why? Talk to me about the beginning of his career. Yeah, so the thing about Sam's story arc is that there legitimately is an arc, right? Sam was the quarterback of USC.

It's a pretty premier program, particularly... And this is the University of Southern California, big college program, right? Yeah, on the West Coast, about as big as you're going to get. Darnold on the rollout, wide open burnet, easy touchdown, USC. The NFL draft order works in reverse of final standing. So if you win the Super Bowl, you get the last pick in the first round. And if you have the worst record in the NFL in the regular season, you get the first pick. So Sam was so good in college that his reward was going to one of the worst teams in the NFL.

And that year, it was the New York Jets. The New York Jets select Sam Darnold. It's just the idea like, you are going to save us. They were looking for a guy who could change this franchise and Sam Donald would do. And we should just say that the Jets are obviously a big market team. Like there are a lot of Jets fans in New York and New Jersey. So this would be a lot of pressure on any quarterback playing for the Jets. And it's really just unfair in general because Sam is one of 22 guys who are on the field

at any given moment. He could be the best thing since sliced bread. But he's not going to save you guys if all those other guys aren't doing their part as well. So there's already this kind of. unfair expectation on any quarterback. And we know those other guys weren't doing their part, right? Coaching, offense, defense, none of it was really working for the Jets. Who does he have? What does he plan with? Look at his coach.

Look at his coach. You want him coaching you? No. Okay. And on top of that, in the NFL is a TV show, right? So what are they going to do? Put the best programs on television that get the most eyeballs. What does that mean? That means the New York Jets are going to be on national TV, whether they're good or not. So if you stink, you're stinking it up when everybody's got home from work and watching you on Monday night football. And it's going to be a pick six for Kwanre Diggs on the very first play of Sam Darnold's debut. Just a huge amount of pressure and visibility bearing down and not a ton of support for Sam Darnold.

So how'd the season play out? Oh, it was very bad. Sam threw a bunch of interceptions. He threw four interceptions against the New England Patriots, and a camera captured him saying that he was seeing ghosts. Seeing ghosts. Yeah, I remember this moment when he said that he was definitely seeming very overwhelmed in that game. And it sounded like he was saying, like, straight up,

I don't know what I am seeing. I can't handle this defense. He just was not seeing the field very well. And again, if that happened at 1 o'clock Eastern on a Sunday, maybe people don't care, million cameras for that game because it was nationally televised. Now you're the seeing ghost guy. Maybe, you know, it's close to Halloween.

Maybe he saw some spirits fly around. Maybe watched Poldergeist. He also missed games his second year in the league because he had mono. You know, he was an adult that had motto, which came with its own set of jokes. The old kissing disease. I knew he was a young quarterback, but geez. So not only is he playing very badly, not only is the. team playing very badly. But Sam is getting this reputation as like a joke.

So, yeah, Sam played very poorly. The team stunk. People got fired. Everyone got cleaned out. And eventually, when a new regime came in, Sam got cleaned out. Coming in as a Carolina Panther, I'm very excited. Very excited for this opportunity. And there were people who were like, oh, well, Sam just got free from the shackles of the gangrene. The gangrene being the jets. What a... Yes, yeah, being the New York Jets. Okay, and then in Carolina, does anything go better there? Initially, initially.

But the problem with Sam is in the NFL, when you're these young quarterbacks, he spent so much time deciding whether you're good or you're not good right away. You know, so I remember he had a really good, I believe, like a month-long stretch in Carolina. But so when Sam had that run in Carolina, though, it already felt like he was in NFL Cinderella in the sense that, okay, yeah, You're playing well now, but the clock will strike 12 on you eventually, and you will go back to being Sam Darnold. The joke quarterback of the Jets that football watchers already knew, you mean? The Sam Donald of the New York Jets kind of became the default in everyone's mind. With the Patriots defense once again, leaving Sam Darnold looking like he's never played football before, the jokes of him seeing Ghost return to Twitter.

But here's a real deal. So basically what you're saying, Mike, is that Sam kind of earned this reputation and this brand. at the Jets that he couldn't shake, which was as somebody who was an underperformer. And this sense that he was going to underperform that followed him to Carolina. Oh, yeah, absolutely. Yeah, he played well in Carolina for a stretch, and then it basically just wind it down.

Carolina was just such a bad organization, fired coaches, players not liking the setup, that it just wasn't a place where Sam could thrive. It was very clear that even if you were very high on Sam, he needed to be in a place with good infrastructure. And that's kind of how he became this NFL journeyman after that. You know, he leaves Carolina and then signs with San Francisco. Playing quarterback's a special privilege.

The 49ers, a team that at the time was very good, had great infrastructure. They already had their franchise quarterback in Brock Purdy. They had just traded for, you know, it was probably the first time. That's Sam coming on to be a backup then. Yes, yes. I think that's notable pivot point in Sam's career as well in this story because it's the first time someone signed Sam and didn't expect him to save them. You know, not to be Superman or, you know, the Black Panther. You just pick whatever guy is tasked with saving the city, world, town, whatever.

You know, Sam didn't need to be that in San Francisco. It's also just kind of a fall from grace, though, no, for a former starter to become a backup? Yeah, no, absolutely. Sam did have that fall, but it's exactly what. he needed, I would say, is to go be somewhere where he was not asked to save everybody. And then when he got to Minnesota, he didn't need that either. Great opportunity, great organization. Just ready to get to work, man, talking to...

If I'm counting right, this is his fourth team that he's been on since being drafted, which is kind of amazing to imagine. If you've started your professional career and you're immediately, you know, in four different companies, not totally comfortable. How does it go for him in Minnesota? Yeah, Minnesota was very interesting because although they did not sign him to be the savior, by August they needed him to beat

because they drafted a quarterback out of Michigan, J.J. McCarthy, the Minnesota Vikings did. J.J. blows his knee out in August. And now it's, uh-oh, Sam, can you save us? And then he did. As Darnold airs it out. Jefferson has it. Darno looking for his fifth touchdown pass of the day.

Addison gets his third. This is his fourth team now. He's been savior guy. He's been backup, learn guy. And now he's more equipped when they say, hey, JJ just tore his knee up. Can you go run this team? And then Sam was the best version of himself. Darnold, end zone Jefferson touchdown.

And can I ask, Mike, at this point, after the season in Minnesota, where he does well, after all of these years of not doing well, what are people in the league thinking about him? Is there suspicion that this might just be like a flash in the pan, a fluke, you know, can you trust it? Kind of a vibe. People in the NFL, fans, media, coaches, executives were really bad at factoring in new information. Like our past evaluations just stick in our mind so much. Like, I saw Sam see ghosts in New York, so that's Sam.

And that's just a really hard thing for people to shake. There were some people who just could not see past New York. And there were some people who were. Like the Seahawks, right? I mean, this is the exception, is the team that you cover. Yeah, so the Seahawks saw Sam Donald

as a guy who had been written off too early by the rest of the NFL. So when they were in need of a quarterback, they felt comfortable signing him. And what was the vibe in Seattle around that? Because I have to say, I think I, along with many people, was like, wait, what? This is the washed up former Jets quarterback. Really?

Yeah, so I wasn't as that far on the spectrum, but I definitely was like, ah, this isn't going to work. I just actually turned out to be very, very, very wrong about that. I love when people admit to being wrong, especially on the air. So why did you turn out to be wrong about that? Quarterbacks generally need three things to be successful. They need good skill players around them, the guys who run and catch the ball. They need five big guys who can protect them, and they need a good guy on the headset,

calling the plays. The Seahawks checked all three boxes relatively quickly. The Seahawks nailed all that in one off season. And because of that, Sam was able to be much closer to the Minnesota Sam that, than the New York Jets, Sam. Huh. The Seahawks soar to Super Bowl 60. You described the journey it took to get here, Sam.

Oh, you know, I haven't really thought about that much, to be honest with you. Obviously, there seems to have been a vibe shift around Sam Darnold from the kind of feeling that I think a lot of people had that was skepticism, let's say, about him, to now where you really do see a kind of belief in this guy. And I think a sense among a lot of us

that is kind of like, I can't believe it, but I believe in him. Yeah, I mean, Sam earned that. Sam earned that within this season. He's showing us each week, which eats performance, that this is Sam. You know, like sports fans really love resonating with their. own version of the little engine that could, right? Everyone loves that.

People find it because that's what they want. They want a Sam Donald. And if I know you've been knocked down, I just feel stronger rooting for you because you are more like me. Even though you can run and jump and do all these other things that are extraordinary that I can't do, the one thing I resonate with is getting knocked down. And because we've all seen Sam do that, he is the hero of our story, you know, for the Super Bowl.

No, and it's completely irresistible. Mike, thank you so much. Oh, no, thank you for having me. I really appreciate it. After the break, we're going to check back in with Michael Barbaro, and we'll find out if we did it, if we got him invested in this Super Bowl. Michael, he's back. And he looks engaged.

I have listened to your little episode. Okay, wow. I heard you listen. I'm breaking the fourth wall. Yeah, yeah, yeah. We sit across from each. We do, and I heard you listening to it, and I heard enjoyment. I enjoyed it a lot.

Well, let me just ask you the question first. What is your impression of these two teams? I want to start. Let's do it one by one. Yeah. Well, if you'll permit me to, I think the virtue is the parallels between these two characters, the underdog and the nice guy. Okay.

In Sam Darnold, you have some one. who needed to go on this journey. He needed to be seasoned. He needed time. He needed a second chance. Or I guess a third chance. Or a fourth or a fifth chance. And then he gets there. In the case of Raeball, he needed to leave the paths, right? He's a player under Bill Belichick. He needed to leave the paths and learn how to coach not in the shadow of this kind of mean spirit. boss. Bill Belichick. He had to do that in order to become himself, right? Just in the same way, if Darnold had stayed where he was having all this trouble, then he would not be in the Super Bowl. If Rabel had stayed at the Pats under Belichick, he would not now be in the Super Bowl. And he wouldn't

be the joyful lip blood-spurting hero of this story. And so those are, I think, the parallels. I mean, these are people who took some real chances in their career, without which they wouldn't be where they are this Sunday on this field. You're saying both of them had to kind of leave their home base in order to go on this journey that led them to this point. Yeah. And what do you take from that? I think in so many cases of great careers, there are great acts of humility, humiliation, and courage. to leave the place you call home, to believe in yourself enough

that you can step way outside your comfort zone and try something new. Mm-hmm. And that seems to be something these two characters here share. Okay, and now, I think, the most important question, who are you rooting for? Who won?

Who won the Michael Barbaro sweepstakes? It's hard not to root, above all, for Donald. Because? Because he's known the low as still lows. You know, there's just nothing like public humiliation. That's a very, very dark place to be in. So the idea that that player gets the ring... Yeah.

That's beautiful. Okay, we were going to get you a jersey, but they didn't come in time. So we don't have a jersey for you. Oh. But we do have two apples. that I brought in. One is red and one is green.

I could use it an apple. You get the green one now. Yeah, I like the grass. You know why, right? Because it's the Jets? Seahawks. My God. We taught you nothing.

But the great green machine was the Jets. I mean, there's a reason why you said it, but it's fine. It's fine. Michael, I'm going to text you on Sunday. I'm going to make sure you're watching the game. I will be. I'm going to ask what you think. I think you made a beautiful episode.

Well, thank you so much. Thanks for having me. This episode was produced by Alex Barron with help from Tina Antalini. It was edited by Wendy Doer and engineered by Sophia Landman. Our production manager is Franny Carr Toth. This episode contains original music by Dan Powell, Diane Wong, Alicia Etup, Corey Shreppel, Marion Lazzano, and Sophia Landman. And if you want even more Super Bowl coverage,

check out our episode from Last Sunday, in which we talk about the upcoming halftime show featuring Bad Bunny. That's it for the daily. I'm Natalie Kittrow-F. See you tomorrow. I'm talk.