The Daily - Boy Scouts or Girl Scouts?

Episode Date: August 12, 2022

Five years ago, after decades of resistance, the Boy Scouts of America made a momentous change, allowing girls to participate. Since then, tens of thousands have joined.Today we revisit a story, first aired in 2017, about 10-year-old twins deciding which group to join, and find out what’s happened to them since.Background reading: In 2017, the decision to open up the Boy Scouts was celebrated by many women but criticized by the Girl Scouts, which said that girls flourish in all-female groups.For more information on today’s episode, visit nytimes.com/thedaily. Transcripts of each episode will be made available by the next workday. 

From The New York Times, I'm Michael LaBarre. This is The Daily. Five years ago, after decades of resistance, the Boy Scouts of America made a historic change, allowing girls to participate. Since then, tens of thousands of them have joined today. We revisit the story first aired in 2017 about how two 10-year-old twins were choosing between the Boy Scouts and the Girl Scouts and find out what's happened to them in the time since.

It's Friday, August 12th. Hi, wait, is this actually recording? This is, let me just make sure. Yeah, recording. Okay, hi, I'm Cleo, and this is my room. So, I have a shelf right here with a camera and some books and some Lego stuff and some paper. And then I have a bed with a lot of stuffed animals, bedside table with a book, Play-Doh, gum, a watch, fidget cube, chapstick, and tissues and other more books.

And this is my heater with a bunch of cool little treasures. And then there's my sister. Hi. Hi, hi, hi. Hi. Who's this? This is Elsa. I'm Alistair Mook. I live just outside of Boston, and I have twin daughters, Cleo and Elsa. Yeah. I am Elsa Mook, and I'm 10 years old. I'm almost 11. My name is Cleo Mook, and I'm 10 years old. I'm almost 11. My name is Cleo Mook, and I'm 10 years old and almost 11.

And do you like being a twin? The first thing I'd say about my daughters is that they're very different from each other. They've been their own selves since the day they came out. Elsa has been always much more extroverted. I act a little more, rough, I think. I'm much more hyper. Likes to be front and center, likes to be in the middle of the action. Definitely likes to be with whoever the leader is.

So I have pens, like ink joy gel pens. I have a multimedia sketchbook, another duct tape thing for art. I have touch markers and a hoo-hoo. Yeah, sometimes she's a little hyper. She gets excited about stuff, and I'm more like calm and not as wild. Cleo's always been very shy. She started out very, very shy as a young girl.

Well, I love music. She started out very, very shy as a young girl. Well, I love music. I love to sing and write songs and play piano. I just have to eat some M&M's and then I'm good. Can we do that little white thing? Yeah. This little light of mine I'm gonna let it shine

This little light of mine I'm gonna let it shine Hi, it's Elsa again. I like listening to my radio. I like to listen to some kinds of pop music. I also like rock and roll and stuff. I like Thunder by Imagine Dragons. And I like Thunderstruck by ACDC.

You really know your music. Yeah, but those are only some examples. I don't like the kind of modern modern rappy pop that they have now. It's too weird. But Cleo likes that more. Not really. I wouldn't say so. I like Pete Seeger and Woody Guthrie and stuff.

They wrote some pretty good folk songs. I like Billy Joel. What's your favorite Billy Joel song? Yeager and Woody Guthrie and stuff, they wrote some pretty good folk songs. Mm-hmm. I like Billy Joel. What's your favorite Billy Joel song? Only the Good Die Young. That's a good one. Mm-hmm. When they were babies, we always thought they looked very different from the time they came out.

They're fraternal twins, not identical. Mm-hmm. They also present very differently in how they've chosen as they've gotten older to look. Now that my hair is shorter, we don't look a lot alike. When Elsa cut her hair to the length that she wanted it, it changed a lot of things for her. That combined with her preference of clothing that mostly comes off the boys' racks means that most kids and adults assume she's a boy. I like wearing, like, sweatpants and t-shirts. My favorite color is blue and green, so I wear that kind of color stuff. So your sister is a bit of a tomboy, it sounds like.

Yeah, definitely. She bit of a tomboy, it sounds like. Yeah, definitely. She's a big tomboy. There's no doubt that Elsa has chosen her own path here. When did Cleo and Elsa get involved in the Girl Scouts? I think we signed them up for Girl Scouts when they were six or seven. So there's the Girl Scout promise and then there's also the Girl Scout law. Okay, so it's, on my my honor I will try to serve God in my country, to help people at all times, and to live by the Girl Scout law. I will do my best to

be honest and fair, friendly and helpful, considerate and caring, courageous and strong, and responsible for what I say and do, and to respect myself and others, respect authority, use resources wisely, They both seemed to enjoy it, at least at first. Hi, it's Elsa again. Well, at the time, when I was little, I only wanted to join because, like, Cleo was joining and my friends were there. That's one of the reasons I did it. But then they just got kind of meh. Meh? Yeah.

At every meeting, all they did was do, like, princess coloring pages and, like, make friendship bracelets. Yeah, we mostly just made, like, stuff out of beads and colored make friendship bracelets. Yeah, we mostly just made like stuff out of beads and colored and coloring pages, quote unquote, girlish crafts. I don't like that terms. Where do you think that these ideas come from of what girlish and boyish mean? I think they come from like a long time ago. When girls were assigned to do certain things, more like stay-at-home things, and boys were assigned to more like go out to war and be heroes. In the old days, they like, they were told they were supposed to wear dresses, so people have kind of started to put dresses and girls together and boys and strong together.

Mm-hmm. I always see these on TV, and this always frustrates me. From the all-new DVD Barbie and a Mermaid Pants. Ads where it says, like, girls, play with Barbies, buy pink accessories. Her hair turns pink underwater. She's beautiful. Barbie and a mermaid.

And underwater worlds are friends. Nerf Fest is here with six new blasters. Hit the mark. And then maybe another time, there's an ad for Nerf guns, and the only actors are boys. And it's saying, like, boys, grab your Nerf guns and go. And I'm like, why are there no girls in there? Because this is how we play. It sounds like you've given a lot of thought to this. Yeah.

I wasn't actually as concerned about it until third grade. as concerned about it until third grade. And then I started to think about, like, how I was not being the way people expected me to be. And I've had, like, classmates in school say, like, why are you wearing boy clothes? Or why do you have boy hair? That means you're a boy. Mm.

I think the turning point for Elsa was that we sent, two summers ago, we sent both girls to a Girl Scout camp, a day camp. And Elsa had a really hard time there. It was the same summer that she cut her hair. And some kids asked her, why are you going to Girl Scout camp they thought she was a boy and wanted to know why there was a boy going with them to Girl Scout camp she kind of gotten arguments with other girls she got arguments with the leadership and she was visibly unhappy and that was the end of her Girl Scouting career.

So I just thought, well, if I don't want Girl Scouts, why can't a girl be in Boy Scouts? Hmm. I had heard that there are more activities I like, like archery and whittling and horseback riding, but they don't actually do horseback riding. That's fine, though. So things that were a little more adventurous sounding. Yeah, Elsa came to us last year and said, I want to be a Boy Scout.

And our first response was to say, well, that's not possible. When I asked my dad and he said, well, they probably won't let you in because you're a girl, I said, well, then I can just sneak in and pretend I'm a boy because of my hair. Still, up until just a few weeks ago, the rule in the Boy Scouts was that girls weren't allowed. But as it turns out... We know the guy who runs the troop, so he'll probably let me in.

That means I can get in. Probably. What the scout leaders in our local troop told us was that while they couldn't register Elsa with the national organization, they could sign her up, they would get her a uniform, she could earn all the badges that all the other boys earned. And for all intents and purposes, she would be a Boy Scout. And that's the way it's been.

What's the Scout Oath? Could you say it for me? Um, I can't exactly remember. Can I get, it says it on my scouting book. Can I get that really quickly? Sure. Okay, I'll be right back. Please, please hold. We'll be right back.

Okay, I got it. Okay, oh, thank you. So could you recite the pledge for me? Okay, well, the Scout oath is, On my honor, I will do my best to do my duty to God and my country and to obey the Scout law, to help other people at all times, to keep myself physically strong, mentally awake, and morally straight.

I remember the first day, I was pretty nervous. I walked in, and I was kind of like going going slowly and I kind of had my head down a little. Even though I knew people would think I was a boy at first, I was so kind of shy about it. There are a few misunderstandings. The other boys in the troop were kind of like, oh, they looked at me a little, like a little strangely, just like if you like, like if someone is wearing like a weird hat, kind of like the way you look at them, like, oh, okay. They definitely knew that I was there. So I felt like, well, I have to introduce myself and I'm going to be brave about it and I can do it.

That's kind of what I thought. My name is Dylan Bates. I'm 10 years old and I'm from Melrose, Massachusetts. My name is Harry Kregelski. I'm 10 years old and I'm from Melrose, Massachusetts. Harry and Dylan are in Elsa's troupe. Not to be that mean, but she usually is the boss for things, and something that she's really good at is, like, one week there was this thing where you would go to this camp, and there was this one day where we would make these forts with sticks, and Elsa, basically, she was she was like the director for everything because there was this one part where we would take moss

and put it on the bottom of the fort and it would act like a cushion. It was her idea. Do you remember a moment, Elsa, where you felt like the boys in the troop accepted you? Well, I was, this is actually something very recent, just the last PAC meeting. I was actually elected patrol leader, kind of like the leader of the troop for the rest of the year. And I was really happy when they decided me.

That's a big deal. Yeah. Hello, this is Dylan. If anyone is just secretly telling her, like, why are you a boy scout? Just why? Why would you do that? Because, you know what? Elsa can do lots of things,

and it takes lots of bravery to step up and be a leader because lots of people do want to be a leader, but it takes true bravery to be a real leader. Well, Dylan and Harry, thank you both for your time. I really appreciate it. Oh, you're welcome. So Elsa, how important do you think it is for someone like you to have the choice between the Boy Scouts and the Girl Scouts? Well, I think it's important for me to have a choice

because I know if I didn't have a choice, I would be stuck with something I didn't enjoy. And if no one had ever had a choice, bad. We wouldn't be where we are today. I probably wouldn't be the way I am now. I probably wouldn't be the way I am now. And I enjoy the way I am now, so I think it's very important that I had that choice. Cleo here. This is my sash. It's pretty nice. I got some of them badges. So, cookie sale, which is what the Girl Scouts always do, which is one of my favorite things about Girl Scouts. Cleo, when your sister joined the Boy Scouts,

you chose to stay in the Girl Scouts. What do you like about it? Well, I don't, like, hate boys, but I do like to get away with just girls for a little bit because boys do fool around a lot and sometimes it's a little annoying and sometimes they're a little distracting. So I like doing stuff with just girls and just my friends that are girls. But I'd really like to do some more cool stuff because like the Boy Scouts get to do

like wood cutting and obstacle courses and the Girl Scouts doesn't really do much of that. Boy Scouts goes out and does like really like cool like crafts like they rock they launch like mini rockets and stuff like that. Five, four, three, two, one. Uh-oh. Oh, that one is a higher one. Cleo, you seem a little envious of what the Boy Scouts do. Am I sensing that? Yeah, I am a little envious

because they get to do slightly more exciting stuff than us, and they get to have, like, a pocket knife. Do you want a pocket knife? Yeah, I'd say so. That would be cool. Do you think it would be better to bring in the activities that boys do into Girl Scouts instead of girls feeling like they have to leave Girl Scouts in order to do those activities? I do think that because I do think girls can concentrate more around regular girls,

but they would like to do the stuff that Boy Scouts does. So I think it would help if that stuff was brought into the Girl Scout troops. So do you feel like you can be more yourself or that you learn more when it's just girls? Well, I think I can sort of be more myself because I feel like not as embarrassed around girls sort of like they're more comfortable to talk with and stuff. of like, they're more comfortable to talk with and stuff. Sometimes girls just need to concentrate, and they should be able to just be themselves when they're with their own gender.

How do you sum up daughters? They're a whole bundle of things, aren't they? We have two very different girls, and they're completely their own kids, but to the extent they represent other girls, I think they do leadership in different ways. I'm sure that the girl-only spaces has been helpful to Cleo to some degree. I can see times when she gets a little over overshadowed by boys. And I think having a time and it doesn't happen very often. She's in a co-ed school. So the that little bit of time once a week or whatever it is to hang out with just girls and to be doing activities with other girls. I think it's probably been good for Cleo and she seems happy with it. For Elsa,

been good for Cleo and she seems happy with it. For Elsa, she wanted to be in the Boy Scouts and she has her own reasons for that. It really comes down to what feels empowering to them. Hey, Cleo and Elsa, can you hear me? Yeah. Okay. Boy Scouts won't start accepting girls until next year, but you two have been able to think about what this decision might mean earlier than most people. You're kind of a glimpse into the future of what a lot of other girls across the country are going to get to think about soon. If you could give advice to girls who are deciding whether to stay in Girl Scouts or join the Boy Scouts, what would you say to them?

Okay, Cleo here. If I were trying to persuade someone to stay in the Girl Scouts, I would probably say, well, like there are a lot of really, really nice girls in the Girl Scouts. And it's just like, I've always felt comfortable with these girls, especially since they're my friends and it's just we like the activities aren't always as cool as the ones in boy scouts but we do do some pretty fun activities and we have good times together so that's fun okay elsa responding to the question so i think a top reason why wait is it why like a girl could join the boy scouts yeah okay is because she wanted to because she can you can so it's perfectly fine if you want to.

I want to tell you both that I think you are really cool. You're great, you're smart, you're sensitive, and you're caring, and I'm really glad to have met you. Thank ya. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.

Ogie pogie. We're going to go downstairs now. A few days ago, we reached back out to the twins and asked them to give us an update on what's happened to them over the past five years. Hi, my name is Cleo Mook and I'm 15 years old. Hi, I'm Elm and I am 15 years old now. I legally changed my name in 2020. old now. I legally changed my name in 2020. And the reason why I changed my name is because in about, let's see, sixth grade or so, I realized that I was trans. I now identify as genderqueer.

So I'm not a girl. I'm not a boy. I'm using they them pronouns. Yeah. Okay. So I quit Girl Scouts when I entered middle school. So around sixth grade. I'm not in Scouts anymore. I haven't been in a while. I honestly probably would have felt more inclined to stick with Girl Scouts if I had found the trips and activities we did more interesting. When I look back at my experience as a Scout, it's something that I'm glad I did. Part of that was because I preferred the activities they did in the Boy Scouts, but also looking back at that, I'm just now like, oh my God, how did I not realize I was trans? As a teenager now, my thinking around gender has definitely changed.

I've gotten a lot wider of a perspective on it. And also the kinds of activities that I want to participate in has changed. I love to draw. I still love doing art. I also love watching cartoons. I watch a lot of Cartoon Network. Also streaming and playing games like video games. I love to play stuff like Minecraft, Five Nights at Freddy's, etc. Oh, and I've started actually getting into a little bit of sewing recently. So that's fun. My main thing is musical theater. I love to sing and act and perform.

I play piano. I really like to read and write. I sing probably way too much ask elm i personally have always felt pretty confident that my gender identity matches my assigned sex at birth but being elm's sister and having trans friends i've learned a lot about gender and what gender means these past few years and i think that exposure has sort of cemented the idea I've always held, which is that kids should be able to express themselves however they want and do what they want, not just what society tells them they should want. Overall, I just, I think I've grown a lot since the last piece was made.

You know, I've discovered a lot about myself, and definitely being in Boy Scouts was kind of a gateway to, you know, being able to explore my identity the way I have, and I do really appreciate that. my identity the way I have, and I do really appreciate that. Um, I think that's all for now. I don't really have anything else to say, so yeah, thank you. Bye. We'll be right back. Here's what else you need to know today.

Just now, the Justice Department has filed a motion in the Southern District of Florida to unseal a search warrant and property receipt relating to a court-approved search that the FBI conducted earlier this week. That search was of premises located in Florida belonging to the former president. During a news conference on Thursday, Attorney General Merrick Garland moved to make public the warrant used to search the home of former President Trump and said that he had personally approved the search after Trump refused to return sensitive presidential papers.

The department does not take such a decision lightly. Where possible, it is standard practice to seek less intrusive means as an alternative to a search and to narrowly scope any search that is undertaken. In his remarks, Garland sought to counter claims by Trump and his allies that federal agents behaved inappropriately by searching his home. I will not stand by silently when their integrity is unfairly attacked. The men and women of the FBI and the Justice Department are dedicated, patriotic public servants. Department are dedicated, patriotic public servants. And in a major shift, the CDC has loosened many of its recommendations for dealing with COVID. Schools and businesses, for example,

no longer need to screen people for the virus. Unvaccinated people exposed to the virus no longer need to quarantine at home, and the public can stop observing the six-foot rule for social distancing. Many health experts praised the new guidelines as a practical way of learning to live with the virus. Today's episode was produced by Lindsay Garrison, with help from Franny Carr-Toth, Rochelle Banja, and Rob Zipko. It was edited by Lisa Tobin, with help from Anita Bottigio,

contains original music by Brad Fisher, and was engineered by Chris Wood and Corey Schreppel. Our theme music is by Jim Brunberg and Ben Landsberg of Wonderly. That's it for The Daily. I'm Michael Barbaro. See you on Monday.