The Daily - Corroborating E. Jean Carroll

Episode Date: June 27, 2019

Note: This episode contains detailed descriptions of an alleged sexual assault.The writer E. Jean Carroll came forward last week with explosive accusations that Donald Trump sexually assaulted her in the 1990s. Today, the two women she privately confided in after the alleged attack go on the record for the first time with our colleague. Guests: Megan Twohey, an investigative reporter for The New York Times, spoke with Ms. Carroll, Lisa Birnbach and Carol Martin. For more information on today’s episode, visit nytimes.com/thedaily. Background reading: Read more about why Ms. Carroll, Ms. Birnbach and Ms. Martin went public with the allegations against the president.Ms. Carroll alleges in a forthcoming book that Mr. Trump sexually assaulted her in a Bergdorf Goodman dressing room in the mid-1990s.The president denied the accusations by resorting to a familiar insult: “She’s not my type.”The Times’s top editor, Dean Baquet, acknowledged “we were overly cautious” in our initial coverage of Ms. Carroll’s accusations.

From The New York Times, I'm Michael Barbaro. This is The Daily. Last week, E. Jean Carroll came forward with the most serious allegation yet of sexual assault by the president. Today, the two women in whom she privately confided after the alleged attack go on the record for the first time with my colleague Megan Toohey. It's Thursday, June 27. Can I ask you, Megan, are all your various phones on silent mode? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

It's so good to have you back. Oh my goodness. It's been almost at least a year. Yeah, I don't think I've been on since the Weinstein story broke. I think I was actually wearing the same outfit. Oh, actually, I think you were. I think you were, and I took a photograph of it.

Oh my god, I've been in the book leave, living in sweatpants mode. That sound good? Yeah. Okay. Sure. Megan, can you take us back to last Friday when New York Magazine published an article about E. Jean Carroll?

So E. Jean Carroll is a longtime advice columnist for Elle Magazine. And last Friday. There is more breaking news tonight. magazine. And last Friday... There's more breaking news tonight. In an interview published in the latest edition of New York Magazine, a woman claims that President Trump assaulted her 23 years ago at an upscale New York City department store. She published what amounted to a rape allegation against Donald Trump. Today, the president of the United States was accused of rape. She has a book that's coming out on Tuesday, July 2nd. And this was sort of a condensed excerpt of a chapter in the book in which she describes

an encounter with Donald Trump at Bergdorf's here in New York. The idea for this book came to her like around 2017. As she tells it, she's going to set off on a road trip across the country. She's going to go to towns named after women. And she's going to get out of her car in all of these towns and ask women, stop women on the streets and say, why do we need men? And basically, as soon as she has hit the road, it's October 2017. And the Harvey Weinstein story breaks. Your story, the one you and Jodi Cantor wrote. Yes. So as E. Jean tells it, she is spending her days on the streets of these towns interviewing

women about their experiences with men. And then at night, she's going home and she's fielding these, you know, a flood of emails that are coming in to her advice column, you know, all different types of women who are being sort of swept up into the Me Too moment and are turning to her advice column, you know, all different types of women who are being sort of swept up into the Me Too moment and are turning to her for advice. So in this moment, she really kind of pauses and says, I think I have to have my own personal reckoning here before I can really wade into all of these messages that I'm getting and all this sort of help that people are turning to me for. And so for her, the sort of personal reckoning ended up in the form of a list that she called the hideous men list. She says

that she suffered sexual abuse at the hands of like a young boy when they were both children. She talks about an encounter with a camp counselor that she says groped her. She talks about, you know, an encounter that she had in college when somebody basically held a knife to her, like a date ended up holding a knife to her. It kind of continues up into adulthood, her first boss. And number 20 is Donald Trump. So the book sells and it's now scheduled to come out on July 2nd. And in the lead up to that, there's this excerpt that runs in New York Magazine that I and many, many, many, many other people end up reading on Friday. And, you know, for me, one of the things that I was drawn to that I immediately went to in this account was. Now, E. Jean Carroll never reported her alleged sexual assault to police, but she did tell two friends about it at the time, and those friends have confirmed that

to New York Magazine. She told two friends at the time of the alleged attack. Since then, in the news articles that have run about this, they have not elaborated, they have not gone on the record, they have not revealed who they are, they have not shared their perspectives. They have not told their stories. They have not told their stories. And, you know, here at The New York Times, I think there was agreement that if we could get these women to go on the record, to use their names, to tell us about sort of their recollections of this particular moment in time, that would help people assess the credibility of this very serious allegation against the president of the United States. It might change how they view it. It's just more information with which to assess this very serious allegation.

So what happens? So starting last weekend, I set about trying to convince these two women to sit down with me and share their perspectives and go on the record. And that involved phone calls, text messages. Both of them were pretty reluctant. They didn't want to necessarily be pulled into the spotlight. But ultimately, today on Wednesday, I finally had the opportunity to sit down with E. Jean

and these two women that she had told her story to 20 years ago. two women that she had told her story to 20 years ago. Yeah, well, thank you guys for your trust and for this. I think it's, I think it's really important. I think it's... So how did this conversation start? Tell me a little bit about yourself and, you know, can you just sort of give me your full name and a little bit of your background and how you guys met. Carol Martin, C-A-R-O-L-M-A-R-T-I-N. And I have been living in New York about 45 years, I think now, hard to believe.

I came here in 1970. So this conversation started really as kind of a trip down memory lane. Wonderful studio audience today. Thanks, everybody, for being with us here on Martin Luther King. These are three women who have worked in the New York media world for decades. They gave you a lot of shows. Yeah, well, so you too. One was a longtime TV anchor, Carol Martin. Of course, we want to hear from you in the next hour. We've got some interesting topics.

At the time of the alleged attack, she and E. Jean were both hosting shows on the same network. Hi, E. Jean. How you doing? Hey, man, look at that. It's a cool car. Carol Martin, she had a show, like a health and wellness show. E. Jean had an advice show. Your show, for all of us anyway, was sort of the front runner. And they let us do whatever we wanted. They kind of did.

They just gave us these shows. It was nuts. And did you guys hit it off right away? Kept us going. It was really good. But do whatever we wanted. They just gave us the shows. It was nuts. And did you guys hit it off right away? Kept us going. But yeah, we did. The other woman, Lisa Bernbach. Mostly, I was a contributing editor of Parade. She's an author. She wrote the Preppy Handbook. I wrote for everybody at least once or twice.

She worked for Spy Magazine. She's written pieces for all the glossy magazines. Remember her? She was on written pieces for all the glossy magazines. Remember her? She was on Merv Griffin all the time. So they were just swapping stories of the people that they covered and he wrote the Dick Van Dyke show. The circles that they moved in with TV

writers and other journalists and Chris Matthews had a show on there. They were just dropping names left and right. You came to his birthday party. Oh, Lord. Thank you. Thank you. This is all true. You almost felt like you were kind of stepping back in time. It was a glorious experience in its own way, that little patch of time, you know. When the New York media world was just kind of at its peak.

And if this is the heyday of the New York media world, we know that Donald Trump very much figures into it. He does. In fact, they all had Trump stories. She actually did a story on Donald Trump. Didn't know this. I know. Lisa had actually written a story about Donald Trump in 1996. He did call me regularly.

His assistant, Norma, would make the call and say, Donald Trump is on the phone. Are you still into it? Because I said it would be a cover story. She had gone down to Florida with him and done a big story for New York Magazine about Mar-a-Lago. I think my story is one of the reasons you thought to call me. That is a high possibility, but I don't remember it. I just called that, you know, you were the one. It really started to segue into the phone call that she had received from E. Jean that same year. I know you've discussed this before, but can you walk us through

what happened this particular day? You had been at the studio where you and Carol worked. Yes, and I wanted to shop for something. I can't remember what it was. Drove across the George Washington Bridge, came up the West Side Highway, parked across the street from Bergdorf's, shopped for whatever it was, didn't find it because I didn't have bags. So the conversation then takes a more serious turn, where E. Jean then starts walking us through, kind of beat by beat,

what happened the moment of the alleged attack. He was standing outside and it was dark. So it must have been 6.30, maybe 7. He went like this when he saw me through the door. He was like, stand there and stop me. Made a gesture, like held up his hand. Yeah, held his hand like that. And he came to the door and he said, you're that advice lady.

And I said, you're that real estate mogul. He said, come advise me. I want to give a gift. I was like, this is charming. Oh, boy. I said, yes. I asked him who it was for. He said, a girl.

And I am just having such an engaging time because I have Donald Trump in tow. And he is asking for my advice. I'm like thrilled that this is happening. Why are you so thrilled? Because it's Donald Trump and I've got, it's a thing. It is a thing. It's like, it's just delicious because he's stopping. He asked me for my advice. It's for a girl right up my alley. I'm just thinking this is it and at that point he said lingerie or he's maybe said panties he may have said underwear but I had the impression we started to go up the the escalator we went to whatever for the lingerie was on and we walked in there was a counter on the

left and there was nobody there and there was a counter on the left, and there was nobody there. And there was a, it looked like a filmy, sort of see-through grate, and when he picked it up, I could see it was a bodysuit. And he said, go put this on. I said, you put it on. And then the scene really started, I'm thinking, this is terrific. This is terrific. He says, it looks like it would fit you. I said, no, it goes with your eyes. And there was a little bit of banter back and forth, which I was loving, and I was laughing. And he went like this towards the dressing room. And I'm thinking, I'm actually laughing out loud thinking I'm gonna make him put these

body suits over his pants that is the scheme and I'm thinking this is going to be the funniest thing I have ever seen him I've got a picture in my head as we're walking him going like this and putting it on that's what I'm thinking and we walk in the dressing room. I'm in front of it. I pass in front of him. He shuts the door and just pushes me against the wall. Boom. And kissed me. And I was continuing to laugh. And that's when I started to push him back.

And that's when he started to lean forward. And that's when he put his weight against me. And I must have started to stamp at this time and he has two free hands because his shoulders here the shoulders leaning into you yeah holding me against the thing and one of his hands went under in between the flaps of my coat and pulled down my tights not off but way down and he ran his fingers around looking anyway whatever he was doing he was looking for my vagina I guess assuming that hurt and so it had to be with the other hand as he held me he unzipped his pants now he could have unbuckled him I don't know he could have unbuttoned him but pretty soon he had the tight stem his penis in this hand

and inserted it briefly I don't think it was all the way I I don't and it was not long I'm yet let's not put a time limit on it. I'm struggling. How long could it be? It couldn't be long. And what did you do next? I may have tried to hit him with my purse. I don't know.

I don't know what I did with this hand. I have no idea. The thing I clearly remember is this. That's what I clearly remember. Trying to stomp his knee? Well, I have to get my knee up to get him off right i got i got this knee up just slightly enough to back up were you talking was he talking no i didn't say a word

anyway so push him up backed up and then down the house, either went in the escalator or the elevator. I don't know. Got to the ground floor. E. Jean describes running out of the department store onto the street. Went out through the building, got to 5th Avenue, had my purse because I picked up my phone. Reaching into her purse, picking up her phone, and calling Lisa. And Lisa, what do you remember about this moment?

Well, in 1996... And that's where Lisa's account of that night begins. We'll be right back. Let's start at the beginning. So you go out, you run out of the store, you stop, you reach into your purse, you pull out your phone, and you say, I'm going to call... Lisa.

And what does Lisa say? Lisa is home. She's on the Upper East Side. That would have been dinner time for me. She's home alone with her two children. I had a six-year-old and a three-year-old. And she says that at first, both women sort of describe this phone call starting with E. Jean laughing. She's breathless and laughing. Why laughing?

This is going to be the funniest thing I've ever thought of. This is hilarious. So I came out with this, I got to tell somebody, so I told Lisa. You know, she had adrenaline coursing through her body. She was just looking for a release from what had just happened. And in her mind, as she tells it, she'd gone into this exchange with Trump, sort of seeing it as, like, good material, like a great story.

I remember her saying repeatedly, he pulled down my tights. As Lisa tells it, she at first was laughing along. He pulled down my tights, which got me to think that was as far as it went. But as the story continued, she stopped laughing and started to realize that what E. Jean was describing sounded to her like rape. Honestly, you did say he put his penis in me. And I said, my face just did it.

What? He raped you? Oh. And you said, he kept pulling down, he pulled down my tights, he pulled down my tights. And Lisa was emphatic. She said, what you're describing is a rape and you should go to the police. It just, it was horrible. We fought. And I said, let's go to the police.

No. Come to my house. No, I want to go home. I'll take you to the police. No. It was 15 minutes of my life. It's over. Don't ever tell anybody. I just had to tell you. E. Jean, while I think at this point had stopped laughing,

was not seeing this within a criminal framework. It was an episode. It was an action. It was a fight. It was not a crime. I had a struggle with a guy. Well, you felt you encouraged it, probably. Oh, yeah, I know I did.

I know I did. Oh, advise you? Fabulous. Lingerie? Great. It was getting better and better. It was getting better and better. So you felt responsibility for what had happened?

100%. So what does E. Jean do after getting off the phone with Lisa? As she tells it, she drove home. I had a big yellow Cadillac convertible, gorgeous, 1964, and I drove home. And crawled into bed.

And at what point does she tell her other friend, Carol, about this experience? So they can't be sure of the exact timing of that conversation. E. Jean has described it as like between one and three days after the alleged attack. And what is the conversation? From what I could sense of you, A, you were handling it as you handle things, you know, and so she doesn't break down easily on anything. And there was none of

that, as you told me. It wasn't like she started crying or nothing that was a frantic kind of response to it. It was like, I can't believe this happened. As they tell it at that point, you know, E. Jean is not laughing anymore about this, and she's piecing it together,

kind of slowly sinking in what she's describing. And Carol ultimately had a different response than Lisa. I said, don't tell anybody. I wouldn't tell anybody this. Her instinct was to say, listen, Donald Trump is a powerful man. He's got numerous lawyers. I would not tell anybody about this. And whose advice does E. Jean take?

As they tell it, after these two separate conversations, these women never spoke of the alleged attack again. They kind of went on with their lives and their friendships. And even during the presidential race, when these women were coming forward and the Access Hollywood tape is coming out, as she tells it, she does not feel compelled to talk about this either publicly or even privately. I mean, a question would be why you chose not to say something in 2016. I didn't think, yeah. Shocking as it sounds, I thought it would help

him. And shocking as it sounds, I was correct. Why did you think it would help him, the women coming forward with allegations of broke bank? Because it is a masculine, powerful, leader-like thing to do to take what you want, to have as many women for your own pleasure as you can take. So for 20 years, E. Jean does not talk about this allegation with either these two friends who she told right away

or with the public. Not through the campaign, not after the campaign. Just now in a book form. I wonder if that's raising some skepticism because she is now selling a book. Sure, I think people are entitled to skepticism. But I think that if you sort of step back and dissect this a little bit more, you're looking at somebody who got, as we understand it, a very modest advance for this book.

I don't think that the people who were involved in it were expecting it to be a big seller. Otherwise, they probably would have paid her more money. This is not like a tell-all book about her experience with Trump. Her account of this alleged attack takes place within a sort of 11-page chapter in a book that weaves together the stories of many men she's encountered over the years and the voices of other women. this was designed to be a big public hard swing against the president, it was packaged in a really unconventional way because for all of this kind of vivid description that she provides of this alleged attack, she doesn't call it rape. It is pretty well established, at least under criminal law, that forced penetration without consent is considered rape and yet you yourself even all these many years later after you've chosen to you know finally come forward with this account of what happened and write

about it in in your book that you yourself have not used the term that lisa used back in 96 when she first heard your story that you even now will not describe it or don't consider it rape or? Every woman gets to choose her word. Every woman gets to choose how she describes it. This is my way of saying it. This is my word. My word is fight. My word is not the victim word. I have not been raped. Something has not been done to me. I fought. That's the thing. So I actually really tried to press her on this. In addition to sort of writing a good book

and having your own personal reckoning over these incidents that you've experienced, was there a broader reason now to put this, specifically this allegation against Trump out into the world at this moment in time? Did you have any intention and any other intentions in terms of going public with this particular account at this particular moment in time? Do you want or expect it to have an impact? And if so, what would that be? I had no expectations. None. I've learned as a woman of 76 years to have absolutely no expectations because if you have even a half of expectation, you will be disappointed.

So I have no expectation. Megan, I've been thinking, as you've been talking about another woman who came forward just before the 2016 election with an allegation against the president, Jessica Leeds. You and I ended up both meeting her in our reporting in 2016. And I wonder if you've also been thinking about her, too, in relation to this story. She was one of the first people who came to mind. And she actually sent me an email this week because she's tracked the various allegations that have come out since she went on the record in a story in The New York Times with us. And it's interesting. I heard echoes of Jessica Leeds in my conversations with E. Jean. She and E. Jean Carroll are around the same age.

I mean, their stories are different. Jessica Leeds describes a moment when she happened to sit next to Donald Trump on an airplane and him reaching over and, as she tells it, groping her during the course of the flight. But you can hear echoes in the way that they talk about these encounters. You know, these two women being working women of an earlier era in which, as they've described it, their encounters with Trump were among many encounters of bad behavior that they experienced at the hands of men. For somebody who was born during World War II, I don't think it's that unusual.

Just kind of being out in the world and that their encounters with Trump, they didn't forget them, but they kind of got woven into the fabric and experience of being a working woman out in the world in these earlier years. If you think all the men that a woman can encounter in 76 years on a planet that has men everywhere. And when you think of all the men who can grab you, pinch you,

pummel you, throw you down, Roger you. The amazing fact about the book is that there are 21. And the surprising thing is that there are not double or triple that. And yet, if you look at what E. Jean is describing, this is by far the most serious allegation that's been made against the president ever. most serious allegation that's been made against the president ever. So I know that the way that you describe this sort of clever idea for getting rid of men is a clever idea, in many ways a clever story. Is there something about this particular book and these particular allegations at this particular moment that go beyond a good story?

Or do you still see it in the context of that? I see it in the context. I had this list. You dropped the Weinstein bomb, and the memories started coming back. I hadn't remembered being raped as a 5-year-old girl until this trip. I hadn't remembered being raped as a five-year-old girl until this trip. I hadn't remembered the babysitter.

And boy, when I got this list, that list just took over the book. It just took over the book, and I was driven to get this book down. He was just a part of that. Just a part. Okay, a big, golden, shiny part, but just a part. Okay. A big, golden, shiny part, but just a part. Megan, thank you very much. We appreciate it. Thanks so much for having me. Later today, Megan Toohey and our colleagues,

Jessica Bennett and Alexandra Alter, will be publishing a profile of E. Jean Carroll and her allegation against the president. We'll be right back. Here's what else you need to know today. Who is the geopolitical threat to the United States? The biggest threat to the security of the United States is Donald Trump. In the first Democratic debate of the 2020 campaign, the candidates attacked President Trump's management of the economy and immigration, but differed on how aggressively to transform the country.

When you've got a government, when you've got an economy that does great for those with money and isn't doing great for everyone else, that is corruption, pure and simple. and isn't doing great for everyone else. That is corruption, pure and simple. Senator Elizabeth Warren of Massachusetts set the tone for the party's liberal wing, declaring in her first answer that the system was rigged. We need to call it out. We need to attack it head on.

And we need to make structural change in our government, in our economy, and in our country. The candidates clashed over whether to provide free college education, decriminalize illegal border crossings, and abolish private health care. Just two of the 10 candidates on stage, Warren and Bill de Blasio, said they supported an exclusively government-run health care system. I am just simply concerned about kicking half of America off of their health insurance in four years. A second Democratic debate featuring 10 additional candidates will be held tonight.

We'll cover both of the debates on Friday's episode of the show. That's it for The Daily. I'm Michael Barbaro. See you tomorrow.