The Daily - Friday, March 23, 2018

Episode Date: March 23, 2018

For decades, Americans have believed that the best way to end racial inequality is to end class inequality. But a landmark 30-year study is debunking that logic. Guests: Emily Badger, who writes about cities and urban policy for The Upshot; William O. Jawando, who worked in the Obama administration on My Brother’s Keeper, a mentoring initiative for black boys. For more information on today’s episode, visit nytimes.com/thedaily.

From The New York Times, I'm Michael Barbaro. This is The Daily. Today. For decades, Americans have believed that the best way to end racial inequality is to end class inequality. How a landmark 30-year study is debunking that logic. It's Friday, March 23rd.

One of the most important principles, I think, of America is that no matter who you are, no matter what you look like, if you work hard, you can get ahead. Anyone who wants to work can work his way out of poverty. Because the only way to get out of poverty is to have a job, to show up, to work really hard, and to be positive within the environment in which you're working. That's how you lift people out of poverty. You can make it. America will provide opportunity. I think we have these fundamental ideas about fairness in the economy in the United States. Emily Badger writes about cities and urban policy.

If you try really hard, you can pull yourself up by your bootstraps. If you pull yourself up by your bootstraps, your children will benefit from that too. If children start from having the same advantages, they will have the same odds of success in life. Ladies and gentlemen, the president of the United States. 50 years ago, we were much more willing to talk about race explicitly in this conversation. You do not take a person who for years has been hobbled by chains and liberating, bringing up to the starting line of a race, and then say, you are free to compete with all the others, and still justly believe that you have been completely fair.

And this is the next and the more profound stage of the battle for civil rights. You know, the Civil Rights Act was about race. The Fair Housing Act was about creating equal opportunity in the housing market for blacks and whites, people who'd been discriminated against. But one of the things that's happened over the last 50 years is that, you know, we talk less and less about race. And we've come to assume in a lot of our policymaking in our public conversation that the problem is not really race anymore. The problem is class. What was the bigger hurdle? class or race? Oh, no question, class, poverty. Well, look, there is a foundational issue here that is not even about race relations. It's about poverty.

You know what's holding Americans back? It's not just race. What's holding Americans back is poverty. This is not a race thing. It's just a poor thing. Poverty knows no racial boundaries. So the consensus in America today is that problems of racial inequality are really problems of class inequality. And the follow-on thought to that is the solution to this is if we target programs that benefit lower class people, that will also benefit blacks. that benefit lower class people that will also benefit blacks. The idea is that we do not need to create solutions specifically tailored to a problem about race because if we design policies that help lower income people, it will help blacks too and that will solve this problem.

Why doesn't government just stop treating people anyway, good or bad, on the basis of their race? We're all American citizens and it's immoral for government to take account of your race in the way it treats you. If you truly want to lift people out of poverty, stop separating them by class and race and especially lumping class and race together as one thing. If you work hard, if you get educated, if you're an honest person, you can make it in America. It's all relative. Yes. It's harder if you're a ghetto kid.

Yes. But can you do it? Yes. So if everyone is lifted up by the bootstraps, it will lift up blacks as well. Right. Has this philosophy actually worked? The idea that if we get people on equal footing, regardless of race, if we get everyone to the same starting line, equality will be achieved. There have unquestionably been improvements

in equality over the last 50 years, you know, since the civil rights era. There's less discrimination in the housing market. College attainment rates are up. But despite the kinds of improvements that we've seen, the thing that we're learning right now that comes from this new landmark study from researchers at Harvard and Stanford and the Census Bureau is that all of those fundamental ideas about fairness that we were talking about really do not apply to Black boys and Black men in particular. So here's what these researchers did. They tracked the lives of 20 million children in America, virtually everyone who was born between 1978 and 1982. So me, you, and they got access to government data that comes from the census and the IRS and other government sources in a way that enables them to look at these 20 million children and look at their parents and say, you know, how much did your parents make when you were growing up? And then how much do you

make by the time you're in your mid-30s? And the researchers are able to compare black and white children raised in identical circumstances. A black boy who is raised in a wealthy family is far more likely to become poor in America than a white boy raised in a wealthy family. A black boy raised in a wealthy family is far more likely to become poor as an adult. A white boy is likely to stay rich. A black boy is much more likely to become poor. Even if they start in similarly well-off circumstances. Right, right. So if we take an upper-class black family and an upper-class white family and we look at the two sons raised in those families, what happens to them over the course of their lives?

And what the data shows is that the white boy will earn substantially more than the black boy will in adulthood. will earn substantially more than the black boy will in adulthood. And this pattern, the gap between them, is remarkably consistent, whether the starting point between those two boys is in poverty or in the middle class or in the upper class. There is something that is happening in the lives of these black boys all across class that is disadvantaging them in the economy relative to white boys who grow up in the exact same circumstances. So the researchers know where all of these children lived. So that makes it possible to look at neighborhoods all across America and say, you know, what happens to black and white

boys who grow up even in the same neighborhood on the same block with all of the same advantages that we've been talking about? And they find that there is virtually nowhere in America where black and white boys who grow up with the same advantages in the same place, where they have equal outcomes. The white boy does better in 99% of America. So then the question becomes, okay, well, what about that 1%? Like, where are those places? What is going on there?

What can we learn about what's happening in those places? What is going on in the communities where Black boys do well and where they appear to achieve something like equality? One of those places that's identified in this research is downtown Silver Spring, Maryland. Silver Spring is a suburb of Washington, D.C., right over the D.C. line in Maryland. And there's a lot of racial diversity there. There's a substantial immigrant population there as well. Yeah, I grew up like a lot of kids do in Silver Spring, the son of an immigrant

parent. My dad came from Nigeria, met my mom in Kansas, of all places. You know, it's a middle class to upper middle class community, but there's a fair amount of income diversity there. They split when I was six. We were low income before, but when we split and we were on one income with my mom, we were very low income. And we lived in a one room efficiency. At night, I used to not want to go to the bathroom if I had to because there were roaches and mice and things running around on the floor. So I started to figure out from an early age that we didn't have everything maybe we should have had.

But my mom worked really hard and so was able to make it. And as we start to try to drill into what's happening in the places that work, you know, that raises all of these questions about, you know, what do they have that 99% of neighborhoods in America don't have? You know, Silver Spring's a great place. It's my home. It's where I was born and raised. It's where I'm raising, along with my great wife, our three daughters. One of the people I met in Silver Spring is this guy, Will Jawando. I've really dedicated my life to improving life outcomes

and closing opportunity gaps between boys and young men of color and their white peers. He worked on policy around the very issues that we're talking about in the Obama White House when they were crafting, for instance, the My Brother's Keeper initiative, which was designed to try to create new mentorship opportunities for Black men. Not only have I dedicated my life to working on these issues, I'm also a data point in the study. And I'm one of those Black boys that started at the bottom of the economic ladder and was able to

defeat the odds and move to the top. We know in this study that neighborhoods that appear to have this rare quality have a few things in common. You know, they are more likely to have low poverty rates. They're more likely to be in areas where it appears that there's less racial discrimination going on. But they're also more likely to be these communities where there are a lot of lower income Black fathers present. That doesn't mean you grew up with a father in your own home. It means that you grew up in a community where there were other fathers sort of around. And what did that look like for you? Who were the figures in your life who served this role that the study says is so essential?

Yeah, I had several key ones. When I went to Oakview Elementary, which is the public elementary schools in Silver Spring, my fourth grade math teacher was Mr. Williams, African-American male, first person I ever saw that wore a suit every day and a tie. He actually taught me how to tie a tie. And Mr. Williams showed me what it was like to be professional and to be successful, even if I didn't know that's what he was showing me. You know, even though I only had him for one year, had a very, very dramatic impact on my life. And so he was one, I had one of the men at my mom's job, a guy by the name of Jay, took me to my first play as a mentor, exposed me to the arts.

So I had a network of folks, especially at a critical time when my parents had divorced and I didn't have as many male influences, that stepped up and looking back really either exposed me or helped keep me on the straight and narrow. And that was important. And I think that is a testament to Silver Spring as well, that there are more of those people around. And what does that tell us? that there are more of those people around. And what does that tell us? This piece in particular really requires sociologists to like dig deep into what's going on here.

There are two plausible mechanisms for what could be happening. You know, one is that if there are a lot of other lower income Black fathers in a community, those Black men are literally playing an important role in your life as a child. You know, maybe they're a role model. Maybe they are mentoring you. Maybe they're just, you know, sort of making it clear to you in the

environment around you. So one possibility is that they are literally performing an important role in the lives of children. The other possibility, and these two things may be true at the same time, is that the fact that they are present suggests that this is a good environment that supports Black men, that economically supports them, that helps them to be good, stable partners and fathers to their children. And so Silver Spring appears like a place that meets all of these definitions. You know, the poverty rate there is relatively low. There are a lot of lower income Black fathers present. It's in an area where it seems as if there's less discrimination. The way I got my scholarship to go to the private high school was that my mom's boss, the head of her company, paid for me to go. So I certainly benefited from the generosity and

I think the progressive leanings of this area. And that was made manifest in my mom's boss, you know, helping give me a scholarship to a private high school. So in summary, the presence of Black men in the community, it correlates with the success of Black boys. And we can't quite say what the cause of that is. But this is a very important indicator. And a place like Silver Spring is a rare place where this indicator can be found. His being there is one of the strongest predictors that we have of the fact that you are going to be successful as a kid in your adult life.

We'll be right back. So even the good news in this study is precarious, and it comes with caveats. If you are a black boy and you grow up in one of these really rare neighborhoods... Like Silver Spring. Like downtown Silver Spring, it is much more likely than just about anywhere else in America that you are going to do well as an adult and you are going to do as well as the white boy who grew up next to you. But if you make it as an adult, if you reach the upper middle class or the upper class, like Will Giroir has, your children are much less likely to remain at the top than a white guy's children. To be Black in America and to be a Black man, you always know that things could be taken away in an instant. I think that's part of the psyche.

But it was one of the saddest parts of the data and research that even if you started off in a high income bracket, we're much more likely to have dropped. You know, if you're a white boy anywhere in America and you lift yourself up by your bootstraps and you become upper class, you are much more likely to have dropped. You know, if you're a white boy anywhere in America and you lift yourself up by your bootstraps and you become upper class, you are much more likely to stay there. Your children are more likely to stay there. If you are a black boy and you pull yourself up by your bootstraps and you make it to the top,

even when that happens, your children are more likely to fall down to the bottom. And Will talks about this. You know, my children were born when I was working in the White House. You know, they call the president Uncle Barack. And so they have this whole, what I think is the right expectation, that the world is their oyster and they can do anything. But we were marching in a parade in Tacoma Park,

which is right next to Silver Spring. And I was holding one of my daughters, and we were told to go back to Africa, you know, and even in this place. And so it's one of those things where you think about it long and hard how you best protect your children and ensure that they continue to move up, which is what every parent wants, regardless of race. Well, what do you think when you hear people say, as they have for decades now, that this is really about class? Because this study, as Emily has told us, has really challenged that notion. Well, I think this study has more than challenged it. I think it's blown it up. I think it's discredited it. This is not surprising to many in academia, to many sociologists, to many that have been in policy, or many Black men or Black people who have seen these differences over a long period of time, over generations.

those who are involved in trying to address these challenges. Of course, it matters if there's a poor white child in Appalachia and we should provide help to them. But this shows clearly that those folks are getting help and are moving up the economic ladder faster and at a more dramatic rate and their Black counterparts are not. So we have to ask the question, look in the mirror and ask ourselves why that isn't the case. And it's staring right back at us. There are a lot of sort of conventional wisdom about what drives inequality between blacks and whites. You know, some people think it's about marriage rates. You know, whites are more likely to be married than blacks. And so perhaps this is disadvantaging blacks.

You know, we think it's about sort of family wealth. We think it's about sort of family wealth. We think it's about education. And the authors of this study looked at every one of these explanations that people commonly throw at this problem and said, actually, even if we account for all of those things, there is still a substantial gap between black and white boys. You know, even if we look at a black boy and a white boy, both of them had married parents. Both of them had parents with college degrees. Both of them had parents with similar levels of wealth.

Both of them even grew up in the same neighborhood. They had access to the same public school. Even if we control for all of those things, there is still a gap between them. And when you look at that, what else is left? What else is left? What else is left is, you know, it's the thing that we don't like to talk about. Structural and institutional racism that is exacerbated by individual racism. So I'll give you an example. When I was in sixth grade, I was a bright young student and a question was asked by my sixth grade English teacher. And I raised my hand and was very eager to give the answer to the question, you know, so you can imagine me squirming in my seat.

Ooh, ooh, ooh, I know the answer. Ooh, you know. And one of my white male classmates, Tom, who sat next to me, was doing the same thing, you know, trying to raise his hand and getting out of his seat. And I know, I know, I know. And the teacher stopped the class and said, William, you will not disrupt this class again. You need to go see the principal. And I was asked to leave the class.

And I remember turning back before I could even get out of the door. She turned to Tom, who was doing the same exact thing, and asked him to answer the question. You know, I thought I was doing the right thing. I thought I was answering the question like I should be in school. And it was confusing. It was hurtful. And it's something that stuck with me for a long time. The way I think about this study is that they're saying that even if we control for all of these important characteristics about your household,

your parents' income, your parents' education, your parents' marital status, your parents' wealth, you know, even if we account for all of that, there is something else going on. And to me, that says that, you know, that something else impacts you when you walk outside your door and out into the world and you interact with schools and with teachers. A lot of this stuff sort of looks invisible to those of us who do not experience it. But it is, of course, not invisible to people who do experience it. So there was a young man in my office just a few weeks ago, actually, goes to high school here in the area. And he was telling me about a disagreement with one of his white counterparts at the school. In his high school, he had gotten in a fight.

He was immediately thrown up against the wall by the school resource officer, searched for a weapon or any other paraphernalia and taken in a room and asked to take his clothes off, which is probably not even legal. And nothing happened to the other student who was in the fight who was white. And so I think, you know, the young man started crying when he's telling me the story. And it's just, you don't feel like you matter. You feel wronged. You feel embarrassed. Like you matter, you feel wronged, you feel embarrassed, you feel not listened to. He's just an example of the many, many young black boys that are trying to climb this mountain and as the data lays out and get out and do well. And it's just there's a lot of things that are set up that make that very difficult to do. There are very few African-American men in this country who haven't had the experience of being followed

when they were shopping in a department store. That includes me. And I mean, this is true of Obama. Obama talked about this at one point. There are very few African-American men who haven't had the experience of walking across the street and hearing the locks click on the doors of cars. That happens to me, at least before I was a senator.

There are very few African Americans who haven't had the experience of getting on an elevator and a woman clutching her purse nervously and holding her breath until she had a chance to get off. That happens often. You know, what it's like to feel, you know, that the world perceives you as a threat. When Trayvon Martin was first shot, I said that this could have been my son. Another way of saying that is Trayvon Martin could have been me 35 years ago. And when you think about why, in the African American community at least, there's a lot of pain around what happened here, I think it's important to recognize that the African

American community is looking at this issue through a set of experiences and a history that doesn't go away. It's just there's too many examples of that. Take a hard look at what we're doing as a society to have such a place where 99% of our communities and most of our Black boys are facing these types of dire odds. Will, you said that you've known this to be true for your whole life, the role of race in dragging down the economic fortunes of Black men. But I wonder what it's like to have it written down and researched this thoroughly in a peer-reviewed 30-year study. Does that make this any different for you? You know, it's vindicating in some ways. You know, for those of us who have, again, known this to be true, either from personal life experience or from looking at the data or people that we know in our lives.

You talk about the 1%, so many communities and so many young Black children and young Black boys are facing these steep odds. And it is kind of surreal to see it laid out so thoroughly and so many of the myths debunked and so much of the data laid plain and made bare. Because there's literally no other explanation in this case for these long persisting income gaps other than race. Will, thank you very much for your time and your work. We really appreciate it. Thank you. Here's what else you need to know today. In a tumultuous day at the White House, President Trump replaced his national security advisor, H.R. McMaster,

and lost his top lawyer, John Dowd. Dowd resigned Thursday morning after reportedly concluding that the president was ignoring his advice. He had repeatedly urged Trump to cooperate with the special counsel, Robert Mueller, and strike a conciliatory tone with his team. But instead, the president has begun to attack Mueller,

mock his investigators, and call for an end to the investigation. Hours after Dowd resigned, Trump announced that McMaster would step down following months of clashes over policy and temperament and would be replaced by John Bolton, a conservative former U.S. ambassador to the United Nations. Bolton will be the president's third national security advisor in less than 14 months, following the departures of Michael Flynn and now McMaster.

And to the gun manufacturers, who count on sales to go up every time kids are killed in their classrooms. We see you. Tens of thousands of students are expected to travel to Washington on Saturday for the March for Our Lives, a massive demonstration led by survivors of the shooting at Stoneman Douglas High School. The demonstrators have laid out three demands. A ban on the kind of assault weapons used in mass shootings.

A prohibition on high-capacity gun magazines. And the creation of a universal background check system for all gun buyers. And to the people marching this Saturday, the people saying, Never again! We'll see you there. Ike Srees-Kanlaraja, Claire Tennesketter, Paige Cowett, and Michael Simon-Johnson, with editing help from Larissa Anderson. Lisa Tobin is our executive producer. Samantha Hennig is our editorial director.

Our technical manager is Brad Fisher. And our theme music is by Jim Brunberg and Ben Landsberg of Wonderly. Special thanks to Sam Dolnick, Michaela Bouchard, and Jacob Gorski. That's it for The Daily. I'm Michael Barbaro.

See you Monday.