The Daily - How Affirmative Action Changed Their Lives

Episode Date: July 13, 2023

Two weeks ago, the United States Supreme Court struck down affirmative action, declaring that the race-conscious admissions programs at Harvard and the University of North Carolina were unlawful.Today, three people whose lives were changed by affirmative action discuss the complicated feelings they have about the policy.Guest: Sabrina Tavernise, a co-host of The Daily.Background reading: For many of the Black, Hispanic and Native Americans whose lives were shaped by affirmative action, the moment has prompted a personal reckoning with its legacy.In earlier decisions, the court had endorsed taking account of race as one factor among many to promote educational diversity.For more information on today’s episode, visit nytimes.com/thedaily. Transcripts of each episode will be made available by the next workday.

From The New York Times, I'm Sabrina Tavernisi, and this is The Daily. Two weeks ago today, the Supreme Court struck down affirmative action, upending years of admissions practices at selective colleges. Since then, The Daily has been talking to Americans around the country about that decision. around the country about that decision. Yeah, this admission cycle for college was very tough on me. And there was a lot of speculation that it was because of my race. I've always been pro-affirmative action. It's always maybe a little uncomfortable,

in the same way that I think it makes most people of color who had the benefits of affirmative action a little uncomfortable. I guess we all expected that affirmative action would be a temporary arrangement, but it looks like every time we take a few steps forward, we take three steps backwards. Today, we hear from three people who explain how affirmative action changed the course of their lives, the complicated feelings they have about it, and what they think of a future without the policy.

It's Thursday, July 13th. Dr. Sims, what was going through your head when you first heard the news? Well, I was on, I was pissed, you know. I've been fighting my whole life. I'm getting sick of this crap, you know, because any time it looks like we as a people are getting an advantage, people just freak out. They freak out. They've been given everything they need. I don't see why we need to give them anything else. Oh, I got I got in a discussion with a Trump supporter the other day. That's off the point. Yeah, yeah. No, I'm going to bring you back.

I'm bringing you back. Bring me back. Bring me back, Sabrina. Bring me back. Go ahead. Okay. Let me ask you, Dr. Sims, if you could just introduce yourself for me. Tell me your name, your age, your profession, and where you live.

Okay. Richard V. Sims III, MD, 75 and a half years old, emeritus professor of medicine, University of Alabama at Birmingham School of Medicine. Place of residence is Vestavia Hills, Alabama. Tell me a little bit about your background, where you grew up, what your parents did, and then we can talk about your education. I lived in Summit, New Jersey from 1948 when I was born until 1966 when I graduated from high school. My father grew up in Mississippi and stuff, so he knew what the South was about. He was determined to get out of there.

Do you know if they were descendants of enslaved people? Do you know what their backgrounds were? All of them were slaves. My mother's family, they were all enslaved. They all made a lot of money for the people who enslaved them, and they didn't ever get anything for it. They made a lot of wealth for the people in this country for free. And so they found the North to be less of a terroristic, murderous place as the South and exploitative place as the South,

but they still found that there was racism even in the North. found that there was racism even in the North. And I know my father decided he wanted to be a surgeon. And when he applied to medical school, he was accepted. But when they found out he was Black, they said, well, we can't take you. So, you know, all the other predominantly white institutions, they all rejected him. So he wound up at Howard. And I can tell you, although he was a very smart, very qualified person. But they wouldn't let him admit patients.

And Dr. Sims, tell me a little bit about your own impulse in terms of college and education. You know, you were watching your father doing his practice. How did you think about your education? I was driven. I was driven. I was in the top 10 people in my class when I graduated. Wow. Most of my courses were advanced placement except for math. And I'm sorry, I don't mean to brag, but you asked me. I did.

So then I went to Amherst, which was my number one school. And remind me when you graduated from Amherst? 70. 1970. That's a long time ago. That's a long time ago. And I knew I liked people. I loved science and math and so forth.

And my dad was my hero. I said, okay, I'm going to med school. So I just applied to a bunch of places, some places I didn't think I had a chance to get into. I wasn't one of the top students in the class. I mean, I was a solid B plus student. I was up in my class. I graduated with honors, but I wasn't Harvard category. I mean, I'm convinced that affirmative action got me into Harvard because they hardly even talked to me before I got my acceptance. How do you understand that? I mean, how do you feel about that? What was your kind of thinking? I feel fine about it. I mean, everybody who was there had some kind of, you know, it takes, you use a lever to move something large.

Everybody there had a lever, you know, where the legacies, where the parents went to the medical school. You had people who were big donors whose kids were coming there. And that sort of thing. So why should I feel badly about my little lever? Because I didn't have nothing else. So remind me what your Harvard experience was like. So you walk onto campus the first time, fall of 1970.

Well, I got dazzled. I mean, you know, Harvard Medical School. Right. I mean, I was like, there were stars in my eyes. What'd you think? I got hypnotized by the name. And I said, oh my gosh. Do you have a memory for me, Dr. Sims, of being in med school and kind of just like.

I took a rotation in pediatrics at Austin Children's Hospital. And the whole time I was there, I would, as was my way, I would ask the supervising residents and the attendings about how am I doing? Is there any way I can improve my presentations? Is there anything I need to know in terms of feedback? And they said, oh, no, you're doing fine. You're doing fine. And I wound up with a D in the course, which told me that they didn't expect anything better. And I was in the top half of my class.

And I was in the top half of my class. I wasn't near the top ten or nothing like that, because there were some really, really outstanding, bright students there. There were also some of those legacies. There were nothing impressive at all. But people had low expectations for you, would sometimes say things that would indicate that they didn't think you belong there and that it was unlikely you were going to be successful and you were taking the place that somebody else should have had. And I mean, there's no question

the name on my CV has opened doors. It has opened doors for me that ordinarily, I think, would not have opened. But that just made for a terrible experience. I didn't even go to my graduation. I was just so angry. I just said, I'm not going to graduation. F this thing. I'm getting out of here. But that was probably short-sighted on my part.

I mean, I should have done it for my parents. Yeah. You know? So that they could see that their sonny boy had actually got through the place. Hi, Professor Harper. Hi, how are you? Tyler's fine, but thank you. I'm very good. I'm very good.

Nice to meet you. Nice to meet you, too. So why don't you do me a favor and just ID yourself for me. Tell me your name, your age, where you live, and what you do for a living. Sure. My name is Tyler Austin Harper. I'm 31 years old. I live in Scarborough, Maine, and I teach environmental studies at Bates College.

So, let's talk a little bit about your background, Tyler, and where you grew up. Tell me about your family and your parents. Yeah, absolutely. So I was born and raised in Mechanicsburg, Pennsylvania. For better or worse, central Pennsylvania is a pretty rural place. Right. So, you know, I grew up really close to the Abolition Trail. That was a great and quiet place to be a kid. Mm-hmm. Particularly when I was growing up, it was a very colorblind place. You know, being a good person in that area meant not talking about race, not asking people about their race, and pretending it doesn't exist politely.

And so, I'll be honest with you, I was pretty naive about race. It was not something I ever spent much time thinking about, which I think surprises people because I grew up as a brown person in a very, very white part of the country. My biological father, who is black, split when I was pretty young. So I was raised by a single mother until I was about 10. My mother remarried to my adoptive father, who's a wonderful man. And just because we're about to be talking about affirmative action, Tyler, your mom, is she white? She is, yes. Got it.

My mother had a year or two of college, but had me very young, and finishing a four-year degree was not in the cards. And I think she really wanted me to do what she hadn't been able to complete, which was a four-year college degree. So she was always really clear, hell or high water, I'd be going to college. You'd be going to college. I was a curious student, I would say. Not always the most motivated, I'll be honest. I spent a lot of time fishing and playing guitar, but, you know, I did okay in terms of grades. Like most high school students, I was required by the school to take the PSATs, you know, the precursor to the SATs, and was very shocked to find when I got my results back that I had done really well. And at that point, the guidance counselor and some other folks were telling me

that I should think about a different caliber of institution than I think I previously had in mind. So I applied early decision to Haverford, and that was sort of all she wrote. So at the time that you applied to college, how did you identify yourself in terms of your race at that point? I don't recall how I specifically checked boxes on my Haverford application form. When available, I generally have checked black and white if you can check both. A lot of times you can actually only check one. In those cases, I've always, since I was young, just checked the black box. So you said you had excellent scores going into college, but was there an element of going into college. But was there an element of race as well? Was affirmative action also at play there? Do you have any sense of that? Oh, yeah. Yeah. I remember really clearly my

Haverford interview where the interviewer is asking me about my hobbies. And I mentioned I used to do competitive bass fishing tournaments really seriously all over the Northeast. Yeah. And so I was actually, to my knowledge, the youngest person to go to the state championship when I was 16. And she thought that was delightful. But she said a number of things along the lines of that's very a curious hobby for someone of your background. I don't really know what she meant by my background because I'm from an area where a lot of people fish, so I thought I had the exact background for someone who would do this kind of thing.

Yeah. And I gradually came to realize she meant my racial background. A Black fisherman was not something they ran into a lot. And she really fixated on that, asked me a ton of questions about it, and I think it was one of the reasons they were into a lot. And she really fixated on that, asked me a ton of questions about it. And I think it was one of the reasons they were interested in me. She thought I had a curious background, she kept saying. Based on the tone of my conversation with the admissions officer,

it was very clear to me that they were very excited to be talking to a person of color, especially a person of color that had scores they were excited about. Well, how did that make you feel? What did you think about that? I've always had mixed feelings about affirmative action. I'm very grateful for it. I think it's important. I think it's necessary. But it's also just uncomfortable to realize you are somewhere, whether you deserve to be there or not, because of the color of your skin. As I left Haverford and went on to my PhD program, I began tutoring the first summer after grad school as a way to make extra money during the summers. And it was really once I

started tutoring that I became fully aware of the extent to which affirmative action seemed to have gone off the rails in really problematic and quite disturbing directions. You know, I was somebody getting a literature PhD. My bread and butter was helping them with their writing and their college essay in particular. And I came to realize very swiftly that this intense concern about leveraging, minimizing, or maximizing one's identity in ways that would be legible and beneficial in the admissions process was something most of these students seem to have in mind. Do you remember, Tyler, the first time you started encountering this?

Yeah, absolutely. The first student I encountered who had this mindset was a Chinese-American student who I tutored in Queens. And I arrive and she has all our materials. And she wanted me to look through them. And she asked me to read them to make sure they didn't seem too Asian. Huh. And I laughed because I thought she was being ironic. And she was like, no, I'm serious. And she pulled out her CV and was like, I've been wondering, can I keep chess and math club on here or do those seem too Asian?

Like, are those too stereotypical? And so we ended up having like a 20-minute conversation about whether or not chess and math club are too stereotypically Asian to put on her CV or if it would actually be better for her just not to mention that she had done those. I thought it was kind of odd, very sad, a little strange and slightly amusing. I thought this would be a one-off kind of thing. But these kinds of conversations were basically the norm throughout my tutoring. And these were not cynically conspiring students that desperately were just trying to rig the system.

It was very clear to me that they felt that this is what was expected of them. This is what was wanted from them. And they were just trying to do it as best they could. So the Supreme Court hands down the ruling that overturns affirmative action. What do you think? What was the first thing that came to your mind? I think what I thought is that things are just going to get worse. And, you know, I think there's going to be some efforts to figure out ways to maintain the current level of diversity in ways that are compliant with the

law. I think some institutions will do this. I think I work at an institution that will do this. But I think a lot of the negative externalities of affirmative action are going to get worse. And get worse how, Tyler? Tell me about that. I think it leads to an atmosphere in which race and value are deeply intertwined in these students' consciousness as they're entering these institutions. And I don't know that that leaves once they're there. And why does the decision, though, make that more the case? Sure, because colleges are still going to want to diversify, and the options they're going to

have for identifying diverse students is going to be through the prism of the college essay. There are not going to be some of the other mechanisms available to identify students of color. And so students of color are going to be forced to or feel compelled to lean more caricaturishly into their racial identity, right? And to present, you know, versions of their racial identity that will be the most legible to admissions officers. Other students might find creative ways to be racially ambiguous, right? Make it a little harder for colleges to read what someone's racial identity might be.

I mean, that's my prediction, yeah. I think we're going to be left with all of the negative externalities of affirmative action without the benefits of actual structural redress and opportunity that accompanied a system that was admittedly imperfect, but better than the alternative. We'll be right back. So when the Supreme Court decision came out, I was like a lot of Asian Americans celebrating. My family was actually very happy too. Just saying, oh, this is good for us. Like this is kind of like a win of Asian Americans celebrating, my family was actually very happy too. Just saying, oh, this is good for us. Like this is kind of like a win for the community. And I kind of felt that initially too.

And was that in part because of your college admissions process? Yes. Yeah. So my name is Jia Shin. I'm currently 18 years old. I recently just graduated from Tenafly High School, so that's in Tenafly, New Jersey, and I'll be attending Boston University to study journalism in the fall. My parents are immigrants. They immigrated from South Korea when they were in their late 20s. It took a long time, a lot of hard work for them to get to where they are today. Right now, my mom is an accountant and my dad works as a bank examiner.

I grew up in a pretty affluent town with a lot of resources. My parents had done everything to provide me with the best opportunities possible. The reason why we live in the area that we do with a good public school education is because they want me to get the best education possible. That was at the forefront of our family values and what we wanted most for us. And when you were growing up, did your parents talk to you about what your goals should be in terms of education, what their expectations were of you? what your goals should be in terms of education, what their expectations were of you? So a lot of expectations were placed upon me at an early age to be a gifted child, to study hard, and definitely to attend an elite college. And that was always the priority. My mom used state school as a threat. She'd say like, you're either going to an Ivy or Rutgers,

there's no in between. I'm not paying for your tuition if you don't get into an Ivy. GPA was always first. That was just the kind of pressure I grew up under. And it made me feel like my self-worth was tied to a school or tied to my results, even though that's completely not the case. even though that's completely not the case. What do you think was behind your mom emphasizing elite schools in particular, you know, Ivy League schools? What was she trying to say there? I think she was saying this coming out from her own

lived experiences and insecurities and the hardships that she's been through. She honestly like works harder than anyone else I know. She can't go out because she's working. And if she's not working, she's taking care of me or my brother or she's giving rides or she's cooking. So she never really had a life

outside of her work and her family. And she thought that me having an elite education at an elite institution meant that it would unlock a lot more opportunities. And in the end, it comes down to money. She didn't want me to be tied down to just working, working, working, just like she did. But rather, she wanted me to have financial freedom. She wanted me to have the freedom to pursue what I'm passionate about. And at the end of the day, I think that's a very noble dream.

It's very selfless. But that's kind of why she pushed me so hard to achieve success at an Ivy League institution. So tell me about your high school experience. What was it like at high school? Okay. So yeah, throughout high school, I was very ambitious as a student. And I was very dedicated and committed to extracurriculars. What's an example, Gia? Tell me what you did.

So for two years, I worked as co-editor-in-chief for my newspaper and my school's literary magazine. I self-published a book talking about the different challenges that we as Gen Z face. Created a nonprofit organization for youth mental health. I did varsity cheer and martial arts. I also play the violin. I've been playing for 12 years now. I was the concertmaster of my school's orchestra. I had a 4.56 GPA. And after my junior year, I attended a creative writing summer program at University of Pennsylvania. I loved just all the instructors and the assignments. Connected so well with the people.

Loved the culture. For me, UPenn felt like somewhere that I could call home. So I applied early decision there. So I applied early decision there. And the day before my decision came out, people around me were saying like, oh, you are going to get like they were already making their Instagram stories posts to like say like, yeah, you got it. My friends were like, they had cake prepared. They had all these things prepared. But they said, if you don't get in, who is going to?

Like, who's going to get in? So it was kind of like a no-brainer that I would go to, not even just an Ivy, but at least a top 20, an elite institution. Overall that day, I was like so nervous. I couldn't eat. I could barely sleep that night too. And when it was time for me to open my decision, my family was behind me looking at my laptop. They were all excited to check. And then it was 7 p.m. when decisions were supposed to come out. I still remember it was

7.02 when it came out because I had to wait two whole minutes, which felt like forever. But when I opened my letter, said like sorry we regret to inform you dot dot dot oh wow and that was not even a possibility in my mind actually I think that was probably the biggest shock of my life I mean I've only lived 18 years but it was still a huge shock for me and my family, you know? But I got rejected, not even deferred. And what happened? What did you do? Well, after that, I was just still in shock. I wasn't really feeling anything. I was really numb, but I was also so upset that I didn't even know how to react. I decided to just stay up all night working on my other applications

for my other schools. And I added a bunch more to my college list because I was scared that if this is how it's going to play out, then I better try out everything possible and giving my all to all these schools instead of attaching my dream to one school. Right. So I applied to 19 schools in total and it was just one rejection after another. Even the schools that I was confident I would get into, they were just no's. And by the end of it, I ended up only getting into two, one of which was my state school Rutgers. of it I ended up only getting into two one of which was my state school Rutgers um the other one was Boston University and I realized that these two options are my options and I should be grateful for them but I had never expected anything like this to be my reality and no one had an explanation for why like we couldn't attribute it to anything I just felt really horrible about

myself I felt like I couldn't really show my face really in public I felt ashamed like I was having this like big sticker in my head that said like loser I didn't make it but my mom also said that she couldn't meet with her friends she felt felt embarrassed too. And I totally understood because in my community, there's also a culture of a lot of gossip and seeing if your kids didn't turn out this way, then it means you didn't really succeed as maybe a parent or something went wrong, like what went wrong there. what went wrong there. In the days and weeks after you got your admissions decisions, what were your family members and friends and community members saying to you?

One thing that kind of stood out to me was people said you just got affirmative action, like as a verb. Oh, wow. What did that mean, you just got affirmative action? It was people telling me that I was disadvantaged because of affirmative action in my race. It was people talking about the race box and how big of a deal it was. That's what people have said either as a joke or passing comment. So just thinking about all of this was kind of what informed my beliefs about affirmative action at the time. And Gia, what was going through your mind when you heard that the Supreme Court had overturned affirmative action? It was actually a lot of conflicting emotions initially. Part of me was like very happy that this would be the

future. Also part of me was feeling bitter because I felt like I was wronged in some senses or screwed over as a lot of people were buzzing around me saying if you just apply to a year later you'd end up at an elite institution. But also I want to say that my view changed since then. Tell me about that. Yeah. You know, a lot of Asian Americans wanted affirmative action to be overturned. But then on my social media feeds, I was seeing a lot of discourse, a lot of the side that I wasn't really familiar with. And that was Asian Americans for affirmative action. And I was thinking, is my opinion wrong? Like, am I misreading something? And after I've consumed some media

and talking to a few people who have differing opinions about affirmative action, one thing that I mainly agree with is that I think the misconception within the Asian American community is that our spots are being taken away by Black and Brown students and those minorities, although they only make up a very tiny percentage of actual population in classrooms in elite colleges like Harvard. And in this Supreme Court decision, it seems like Asian people are being pitted against black and brown minorities. But that conveniently ignores the fact that legacy and trust fund and donations on all those things exist. And even though that's not the focus of the case, it still is like the underlying major player at hand that is being ignored. So there's a misunderstanding in the Asian American community

about the culprit. Yeah. So what exactly is your position on race conscious admissions policies now? How would you describe it? Can I not answer this? Because I'm not exactly sure yet. So I'm trying to figure it out. I can't say for certain, like whether I'm one side or the other, I still have like feelings of both sides kind of just mixed all together. Could you talk through some of the uncertainties? Because I think that's a very natural reaction, right? This is a complicated thing

and there are a lot of different groups with different views on it as you've laid out. I mean, is there something that you're grappling with? So part of me, especially initially, feels like my results could be different if I was applying in the next mission cycle, but also like majority of me and another part of me feels like, you know, that's not the case. Let's be real. It's not just about race. It's about so many other factors. And it makes me feel frustrated that I can't attribute one thing to all of my rejections and the way that my college results played out. Because like, there are so

many other underlying factors that are not revealed. So I can't say for certain that it was my race that didn't get me into these schools. but part of me feels like it did play a role. However, I also am sympathetic to the argument, and I very much agree with the argument that we still need to have diverse classrooms. We still need to maintain race-conscious acceptances. And I think that the Supreme Court case ruling was also not to make admissions colorblind. Like, in reality, we still have so many other things like legacy and recruited athletes that are still being given an advantage. And at the end of the day, that harms Asian-Americans, too. And that's what I believe. How do you feel about starting Boston University in the fall?

There's a lot of nervous energy, I think. I'm, of course, very excited to start. I'm excited to take classes that I want to take and have opportunities that I didn't have in high school. But I also feel like this is not in any way an indicator of my potential. It's just a matter of what I make of the college experience. How does your mom feel about you going to Boston University? Now she feels very proud actually. Like Boston University is something to be so grateful for

and the tuition thing is it's not going to happen. Like she is 100% willing to support me. She still has some dreams for me and some expectations for me. Like she wants me to go to grad school. But it's more like what is the person that I will become in college and not so much like what is her dream that I will achieve, you know? I mean, to that point, Gia, your mom had really valued these elite schools, right? And now she's saying what matters is who you become as a person. What has changed her viewpoint on all of this? I think it's just realizing that college admissions is very arbitrary nowadays

to the point where it's almost comical how my results turned out because not a single person I can think of would have expected this for me. And foundationally, putting up all of our dreams and all of our goals into a school is very silly as well. So I'm very happy that I'm the person who I've become throughout high school and the person that I am today. And my parents also know that going on, I'll make the most of my resources and environment.

And I don't see your school name as an indicator of success or anything to indicate your self-worth. Well, Gia, I really, really thank you for taking the time to talk to me. Thank you so much. And congratulations about getting into BU and good luck there. It's a really, really good school. I appreciate it. Thank you so much for your time. We'll be right back.

Here's what else you should know today. NATO is stronger, more energized, and yes, more united than ever in its history. Indeed, more vital to our shared future. It didn't happen by accident. It wasn't inevitable. On Wednesday, members of NATO concluded their two-day summit in Lithuania, pledging unity in their support for Ukraine, but declining to invite the country in to the alliance. NATO leaders said that Ukraine, quote, belonged in NATO, but they refused to spell out when or how Ukraine would eventually

become a member. And inflation slowed significantly in June, with the consumer price index climbing 3 percent, far below its 9% peak last summer. The numbers offered some of the most hopeful news for consumers since the Federal Reserve started trying to rein in price increases 16 months ago. They were also a potential sign that the economy might yet avoid a recession. avoid a recession. Finally, Milan Kundera, the Czech-born French author who became one of the most influential figures of 20th century literature, died on Tuesday in his home in Paris. He was 94. His best-known work was his 1984 novel, The Unbearable Lightness of Being. He won fame for depicting oppression in Central Europe under communist rule,

and for exploring issues of identity and totalitarianism. His writings were banned in communist Czechoslovakia, and he went into exile in France in 1975. and he went into exile in France in 1975. Today's episode was produced by Stella Tan, Sydney Harper, Asa Chetravedi, and Nina Feldman, with help from Rochelle Banja. It was edited by Liz O'Balin, with help from Lisa Chow and Paige Cowett. Fact-checked by Susan Lee.

Contains original music by Marian Lozano, Dan Powell and Rowan Nemisto. And was engineered by Alyssa Moxley and Chris Wood. Special thanks to Amy Harmon. Our theme music is by Jim Brunberg

and Ben Landsberg of Wonderly. That's it for The Daily. I'm Sabrina Tavernisi. See you tomorrow.