The Daily - How Two Friends Beat Amazon and Built a Union

Episode Date: April 11, 2022

This episode contains strong language. A year and a half ago, the Times journalists Jodi Kantor and Karen Weise began examining labor practices at Amazon.In the process, they met Christian Smalls and Derrick Palmer, two Amazon workers at a warehouse in New York, who had embarked on an improbable attempt to create the company’s first union. Last week, they did it.We sat down Mr. Smalls and Mr. Palmer to ask them how it happened.Guest: Jodi Kantor, an investigative reporter for The New York Times; and Christian Smalls and Derrick Palmer, warehouse workers who led the first successful unionization attempt at Amazon. Want more from The Daily? For one big idea on the news each week from our team, subscribe to our newsletter. Background reading: How Christian Smalls and Derrick Palmer won the first successful unionization effort at any Amazon warehouse in the United States, potentially one of the most significant labor victories in a generation. For more information on today’s episode, visit nytimes.com/thedaily. Transcripts of each episode will be made available by the next workday. 

From The New York Times, I'm Michael Barbaro. This is The Daily. A year and a half ago, my colleagues Jody Cantor and Karen Weiss began examining labor practices at Amazon. In the process, they met two Amazon workers at a warehouse in New York, Chris Smalls and Derek Palmer, who had embarked on an improbable attempt to create the company's first union. Last week, they did it. Today, I spoke with Jody, Chris, and Derek about how, against all odds, that happened. It's Monday, April 11th.

It's Monday, April 11th. So, Chris and Derek, this is my colleague, Michael, who's the host of The Dale. Hi. How you doing? I'm really grateful because I know you guys are in the middle of what is perhaps the biggest moment of your lives, that you made time to talk to us. Oh, absolutely. Thank you.

Thank you, really. Is everybody good to go if we start? Yeah. We got to keep it clean, too, right? I might slip. I think if your emotions take you someplace, you should follow your emotions. Okay. So, Chris and Derek, I want to start by asking you both about how you came to Amazon and to the JFK8 warehouse in the first place. What was it that brought you both there?

Well, I was employed for Amazon since 2015. I was an entry-level worker, got hired as a picker warehouse associate, got promoted into process assistant my first year. Opened up three facilities for Amazon. You know, JFK was actually my last facility. So you're kind of a veteran at this point. Right, right.

At this time, I was already, you know, a PA for over four years. Trained hundreds of their employees, trained management as well that was hired within the company. And so I applied to relocate to JFK, which it didn't open yet. It was still under construction. So that was my plan to get into that building upon launch. to get into that building upon launch. And I knew, having seniority, I should be able to pick my shift in the days and times that I was supposed to work,

especially opening up a new building. But I didn't get that opportunity. They threw me right onto the worst shift, which is 12-hour RT shift. RT. Which is reduced time. Okay. 12 hours Thursday, Friday, Saturday.

They took my whole weekend away. And I live in New Jersey and didn't have a vehicle at the time. So my commute was two and a half hours, three hours each way. Wow. And then had to work a 12-hour shift. So that's how I ended up at JFK 8. Derek, what about you? How did you come to JFK 8, this warehouse in Staten Island?

Well, similar to Chris, you know, I started working at a facility, EWR4. In New Jersey? In New Jersey, yes. Robbinsville, New Jersey. So I started in July 2015. I started off as a counter. So I would like count the inventory. Can I just ask you, what did Amazon mean to you to have landed a job back in 2015 at Amazon? Oh, I mean, you know, at the time, you know, I was unemployed. I was doing like a lot of different temp jobs. And if it wasn't for my mother, I honestly wouldn't be at Amazon. So my mother told me about Amazon.

Same. Yeah, she told me about Amazon. So, you know, at the time, I didn't really know too much about it. I just knew that, you know, a lot of people were getting hired at this Amazon facility. And I said, you know what, let me just try it out and see what happens. So I thought that, you know, Amazon was having workers like best interest. I thought they were just like, all right, you work hard, you move up. So immediately I, you know, adapted that philosophy and I just worked as hard as I could. You were going to move up. So immediately I, you know, adapted that philosophy and I just worked as hard as I could. You were going to move up. Yeah. That's the, in my mind, I was like, you know what, I'm going to move up with this company. I'm going to excel because Amazon is such a big name. So unfortunately, you know, it didn't go that way. Um, but you know, What do you mean it didn't go that way? It didn't go that way as far as like me getting promoted. Um, did you have a theory about why?

Um, at the time I didn't know. I thought that I just had to just keep working hard and that I'll be able to get promoted. But what they did do is they offered me an ambassador position. So ambassador are basically workers who train other workers. So like all the new employees that get hired, it was my responsibility to train them. And Jody, how does all of that fit with your reporting on the company and how Amazon operates? So, what Chris and Derek are describing as their experience, based on our reporting on Amazon, that's actually part of the company's design. of the company's design. Jeff Bezos intentionally created this system where the lower-level warehouse jobs were the lower-level warehouse jobs. Those were expected to have a tremendous amount of turnover. And then the management jobs in the warehouse or the corporate jobs in Seattle,

those were totally separate. And rather than promote people from the warehouse jobs, those jobs he wanted to hire college graduates for. So while Karen Weiss and Grace Ashford and I were looking into this warehouse, JFK 8 last year, we also discovered that Amazon has a shocking turnover rate. This is even before the pandemic, it's 150% among warehouse workers. That's the equivalent of the warehouse workforce turning over every eight months. That's remarkable. So this experience that Chris and Derek are describing, it's actually not only common, but it's part of Amazon's whole business model. And that business model, from what you're saying, doesn't give people like Chris or Derek much of a shot of moving out of the warehouse. Exactly. We actually found out that one

of the times Derek applied for a promotion, he was one of 382 people to apply for the job. Wow. That's how many people wanted it. Right. And just how little chance he had of getting a promotion. Exactly. So you're both, Chris and Derek, initially enthusiastic about Amazon. You see yourself as succeeding in your work, but you start to question that, it sounds, based on your inability to rise. How does that work start to change at this warehouse as the pandemic hits? Well, it was just the fact that we were in the dark. We didn't know what the hell we was doing, what was going on with the virus, because we're watching it on the news, and the company's doing something else. Okay.

We're watching it on the news, and the company's doing something else. Okay. So it was something off in there, something off in the building. With managers, with communication, and I'm like, what the hell is going on here? We're in the break room, sitting shoulder to shoulder. Derek tell you, we were sitting there joking. We're all going to die because we're sitting shoulder to shoulder, and we're're watching CNN and they're telling us we need to be six feet apart with masks. Do you remember this?

Yeah. Yep. What were you feeling in this moment? Same way. Like I was scared. I'm like the energy in the building was just like everyone was quiet and no one knew what the next steps were. We didn't know what Amazon's plans were.

So that was the energy that was going on at that time. And Jodi, what is going on for Amazon at this moment? Well, here you have this massive warehouse. It's serving this huge market. It's serving New York City. And right as the pandemic is shutting everything down, Amazon is recognizing people want and need our services. And so what we're seeing is that right in this period of greatest fear and greatest uncertainty, when every American who can get sent home is going home, Amazon is trying to figure out how to get its staff to work to meet this demand.

Right, this historic demand in the middle of a pandemic. Exactly. They feel that this is their moment. And like Chris and Derek are saying, there's a lot of confusion in the warehouse. Our reporting showed that the information Amazon was providing to workers at this point was pretty spotty.

And workers in the warehouse really did not have a clear sense of what was going on with COVID cases in their own building. Did you try to get some clarity, Chris, from your bosses about kind of clear sense of what was going on with COVID cases in their own building. Did you try to get some clarity, Chris, from your bosses about kind of what is the landscape here? There's a virus. It's making people sick. What's my relationship to work now? Right. So, you know, as a supervisor, you know, I felt it was my responsibility to say something.

So I went directly to HR just by myself asking questions, like, you know, trying to do the right thing, but keep it, you know, in-house, saying like, hey, look, what are we doing as far as COVID? Like, we're coming to work. What are we going to do for people that have children at home, schools are closing, senior citizens at home, et cetera? Their response was, oh, we're following the CDC guidelines.

You have nothing to worry about. If you want to leave, you can leave because they were offering us, you know, they were telling us that we can go home and no time will be deducted. You won't, you know, you can go home if you don't want to, but you're not being paid. Okay. So you can go home, but you're not getting paid. Any money. And they had workers coming to work because obviously they need to pay their bills.

And that's exactly what was happening. People were coming to work sick at the time. And Jody, what do you come to understand about how Amazon is communicating to employees? Well, the company was essentially contradicting itself. We have proof that they told people that they could have unlimited, unpaid time off, and at the same time, JFK8, this warehouse, is sending notifications to workers of mandatory overtime. Right, which is not at all consistent. Workers were just confused. So what do you do as your anxiety and it sounds like frustration is growing here? I just kept applying pressure on HR.

Like every day I would go in there and like, what are y'all going to do? Until March 24th when I came into work and one of the supervisors that worked the front half of the week, she was walking around sluggish. She had her own mask. And I looked at her, I'm like, yo, what's going on? What's up with you? And then she was like, I don't feel good. I went to go get tested yesterday. I said, wait a second, you got a test? They tested you? And you're here. Right. So I'm like, wait a second. And I was watching the news and then, you know, obviously they said in order to get the test, you had to be showing severe symptoms.

Bloodshot eyes, rosy cheeks. She was showing all of them symptoms. So I said, you probably need to go home. As a friend. And a colleague, she did. She went right home. I said, I'll take care of your assignments. I'll do all your engagements.

league she did she went right home i said i'll take care of your assignments i'll do all your engagements but she's already been there for several days in a row for 10 hour shifts around hundreds of people and she tested positive wow and i was like am i i'm looking around like am i crazy like yo it's i'm. I'm clocking out. Go home. And that's exactly what I went right downstairs. Got Derek because I ride to work with him. It was like noon. I said, yo, we need to get out of here.

You're just walking out. We walked out. Whoa. So the next day I came back to work. Derek came with me. We went straight into the break room at 7 o'clock, 7.15. And at the top of our lungs, we yelling around, yo, we need to do something. In the break room, telling the workers, like, somebody's been in here positive.

And now workers are panicking, like, oh, my God, yeah, I seem such and such sick. Oh, I don't feel good. Even somebody was like, yo, I'm sick right now. We had one woman that was like, I'm sick. Like, stay away from me. That's what she said. Like, stay away from me. And where in your mind, Chris, is this going at the time? What are you hoping is going to happen when you go in to tell other employees that there is COVID present in the warehouse? I wanted to just tell the truth and have workers, you know, have that information and stand with us

because me and Derek, we marched into the general manager's office along with a group of 10 workers, 12 workers, 15 workers, every day, every morning. He didn't even get a chance to sit down and have his morning meeting because we was at his door at 9 a.m. As soon as he got comfortable,

we was like, nope, this is your voice of associate board right here. The VOA board is right here. You look around the room, you got women of color, you got women that were pregnant, women with small children, you got, you know, fathers, parents. We all just wanted the building to be closed and clean. So just to be clear, what you're asking for is a shutdown of

the building because you know people have tested positive who are working inside of the warehouse. That's your request. Yeah. We just wanted it to be closed for 14 days, incubation period, clean, and we would have came back to work. And we probably wouldn't be sitting here today. That's as far as you could see at that point. At the time, you know, at the time, that's all we wanted. Meanwhile, the virus is just getting worse and worse, spreading. And I had enough. I said, you know what? Everybody stay back.

And they stayed outside the general manager's office. I went in there by myself. And that was the last time I had a conversation with them because I said, if y'all don't close this building, there's going to be something done. And I didn't tell them. I pretty much warned them about protests that I didn't even plan yet. I was just pretty much bluffing. But I said, you know what? I would just say that to scare them a little bit to kind of give us a decision.

And their decision was to quarantine me the next day. After I left the office on that Friday, we came back, me and Derek, next day at 7 a.m. to sit in again. And that's when Zachary Mark, at the time, he was just a senior ops. He came. Pretty senior official in the warehouse.

Yeah, and he's like, I'm sorry, we're going to have to put you on quarantine. I said, yeah, I know. Yeah, Barbara's been positive. I know that. And I pointed, like, what about Derek? I ride to work with him. What about you? I was like, yo, what about you?

His answer was like, nah, it's just you for right now. That's when I was like, fuck that. I was like, nah. I'm like, you know what, man? We saw an article about an uproar, and it was Kentucky. Oh, yeah, yeah. Yeah, Kentucky did a walkout, and their governor closed their warehouse. And I saw that in the article.

And I'm like, why the hell? We can't get that. So that's when I said, all right right let's plan a walk out here and now the media started to call i'm like oh all right all right i'm picking up telling them like yeah at noon march 30th it's going down and i just kept telling the media that over and over yes we're planning to walk out how many people and i knew the media wasn't going to come if I would have said five people. So, of course, I lied. Of course, I lied.

What did you say? 200. I said, it's probably 200 people outside. And I knew that it wasn't going to be. But I knew. I checked the weather. I, you know, played chess. I checked the weather.

I was like, oh, it's going to be 60 degrees. I know as an Amazon worker myself, we outside eating lunch. So I said the perception is everything. And so what happens on the actual day of the walkout? Oh, wow. On the day of the walkout, we got up real early because I don't even think I slept the night before. I think I was like Slim Shady, Mom's Spaghetti, and my stomach was turning. Derek came to get me.

It was like we was going across the bridge, and I'm like, in my head, I'm like, damn, we're about to do something. I don't even know what it's going to look like. You're nervous. I don't know what's going to happen. Yeah. All these emotions are going through. And, you know, we get to the building, and I knew it was real when we saw a helicopter hovering,

and we saw, like, a row of media vans. I'm like, oh, shit. Yo, look what we did. That's what I said out there. I was like, yo, look what we did, yo. So that gave me a little bit of confidence and it was funny because i when we first started at uh it might have been 12 12 30 you know it takes five minutes to get to the time clock so media was looking around like nobody's coming out and i seen it on their faces i said give me about five minutes. Today, workers at Amazon's Staten Island warehouse walked out,

demanding the facility be shut down and cleaned after a worker tested positive. Five minutes, see 60 workers, 50 workers, 100 workers coming out. Staten Island Amazon workers walked out of the fulfillment center warehouse on Gulf Avenue. But it's really like the handful of us that's in the parking lot holding the signs. Dozens of workers walked out today over safety concerns about the spread of coronavirus, demanding the facility be closed for at least two weeks and sanitized. And then I was fired. I got fired the same day the walkout.

They called me over the phone a few hours after the walkout around like 4.35. And what was the rationale for you being fired? What did the company say? I didn't give them a chance to finish. Didn't even give them really a chance to explain it. Jody, what do we come to learn is behind Amazon's decision to fire Chris? Because it will turn out to feel quite fateful. Chris, because it will turn out to feel quite fateful.

So Amazon's official explanation always has been and is to this day that Chris was violating quarantine. However, I'm going to read you text messages that were sent between two Amazon HR officials on the same day Chris was fired. They're saying things like, come on, they were social distancing as requested. It was a peaceful protest. His right to organize is protected. This is going to be perceived as retaliation, not a good look. These are HR officials within Amazon expressing some real reservations about Chris being fired.

Yes. They're saying, this is crazy. I don't even know what to say. So this is proof that even on that day, there were HR people at Amazon who thought this was a very bad idea. there were HR people at Amazon who thought this was a very bad idea. So then Amazon's chief counsel sends an email. In it, he describes Chris as not smart or articulate.

He mistakenly sends the email to like a thousand people at Amazon. And what he's recommending in the email is that Chris become the face of all organizing at Amazon. So I just want to make sure I understand this. An Amazon executive, a senior executive, is saying in a very dismissive way, Chris, let's make you the face of all unhappy Amazon workers who might want to take their grievances public, because in his estimation, that will undermine their efforts. I have to ask how that felt to read that. I'm just, you know, obviously I had the same nonchalant, cool, calm, collective attitude, cool, calm, collective attitude.

But, you know, of course it infuriated me. You know, I just say, okay, note it. Not smart or articulate black man. You know, that's the stigma. That's how they try to stigmatize us. We're not smart enough to be on the same level. Derek, what are you thinking at this point when this email from company leadership goes around about your friend? I was just appalled at that. Like, how can you thinking at this point when this email from company leadership goes around about your friend?

I was just appalled at that. Like, how can you guys sit down in a meeting? You know, you guys are making billions of dollars and you worried about Chris and he's only making, what, $25 an hour. So I just, I knew that they wanted to pretty much silence the whole efforts. Like, anyone who spoke out, that's how they were going to treat them moving forward, including myself. So because you've held this walkout,

you've been fired. This email has gone out about you that's pretty derogatory. What happens next? What do you decide to do? At that moment, that's when we decide to continue to advocate for workers. We founded an organization, the Congress of Essential Workers.

The Congress of Essential Workers. Yeah. And that was just, you know, at the time, I'm getting emails from people from all over the country, Amazon workers, non-Amazon workers that just want to help advocate as well. And so you being fired has turned you into a kind of magnet for lots of people. Right. And I just say, you know what, we need to, you know, form something that's going to, you know, just bring us in collectively as sort of like a coalition. And we formed this organization and we traveled the country starting in New York at Jeff Bezos mansions and penthouses that we can Google. We couldn't find all of them. Obviously we missed a couple. We missed the one in Miami, but, um, we, we started in New York and York, and then we went to D.C., then we went to Beverly Hills, then we went to Seattle, and then we, at that time, that's when they started to unionize in

Bessemer. And Jody, remind us what's happening in Bessemer, Alabama at this moment. Well, it's an important period to note because it really seems like Chris and Derek did not have a lot of momentum. They had had this initial burst of publicity around Chris's firing and the walkout, but that had really faded at this point. It just feels like the company has the upper hand. The pandemic is progressing. Americans are very reliant on Amazon. The company is reporting record gains, and it's hiring like crazy. Like in three months, it scoops up 350,000 workers. That's equivalent to the population of St. Louis. There's almost no equivalent for that kind of hiring in American history. They're offering healthcare on day one and really solid wages.

So the idea that this small band of workers are really going to be able to significantly challenge the company in the midst of all this, it seems really unlikely. But then, like Chris says, comes Bessemer. Right, which is this much more publicized and much more organized, nationally-led effort to unionize another Amazon warehouse in Bessemer. Right, which is this much more publicized and much more organized nationally-led effort to unionize another Amazon warehouse in Bessemer. Yes, this one has the support of national labor groups and eventually some big-name politicians like Bernie Sanders, Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez.

And Chris and Derek, what are you thinking as you watch Bessemer start to heat up? I was like, okay, sure, I support it 100%. And I supported it so much that we decided to drive 16 hours down there. And trust me, we had no intention on that. So when I went down there, I'm expressing to them, like, I'm here as an actual worker, former worker, trying to make that bridge, saying this is the reason why you need to sign up for the union. I thought that would be helpful to their efforts. Instead, they said, no, we want to do this the Alabama way. And I said, whatever the hell that means. What's the Alabama way? I don't know. But I know now what it is because they didn't allow us to rally.

They barely wanted us to talk to workers. They told us like, no, we don't really want you to talk to the workers because it's going to intimidate them even more because you got fired. It was frustrating because if you're an organizer, his story is a goldmine if you're talking to workers and convincing them why they need a union. It makes no sense for you to say that, oh, if you talk to these workers, they're going to be even more scared. Your job as an organizer is to lay his story into why it's important to have a union. They just didn't want anyone else, especially from the North, because the South and North, for some reason, don't get along sometimes. So I felt like it was like, oh, you guys from New

York, y'all can leave. We don't need y'all. So it felt like it was like, oh, you guys from New York, y'all can leave. We don't need y'all. So it sounds like you don't think the organizers in Alabama are handling this effort correctly. What do you think that they should have been doing? Well, what we were doing, well, we were at the Circle K gas station talking to workers at the Alabama facility. And we noticed that some of them didn't even know about the election coming up. So if this union is so strong, then how come you have workers who don't even know what's going on? When this, the biggest story that's going on in Alabama, you need to talk to these workers. They need to understand why it's important that we need a union. We've had thousands and thousands

of workers sign support cards. And so, you know, we believe that those workers will turn out and they'll have their voice. They were so confident that they were going to win. And I didn't get that type of vibe. Workers were not on board the way the media was portraying it as if this union was doing this amazing campaign. That's not what we saw. We saw something totally different. Right. And the reason this matters, and correct me if I'm wrong, Jodi, is like, when it comes to a union vote in a place like Bessemer, every single workers' vote counts. Absolutely. And they were using a more conventional model. This was a big union, the retail workers' union. But I think that part of the question in retrospect about Bessemer is how much of this was coming from the Amazon workers inside the warehouse.

Some of it was, absolutely, but not all of it. So the vote is over and it was fairly one sided. I'll give you the final numbers. One thousand seven hundred and ninety eight votes against the union numbers. 1,798 votes against the union, 738 votes for the union. It sounds like Chris and Derek, Jody, you're all saying a version of the same thing. Chris and Derek, what you saw was organizers not really connecting with workers, organizers from a big national union, and that they were taking a top-down approach. And Jodi, you're saying that's a pretty conventional, traditional, old-school approach. And put it all together, it just didn't succeed.

Well, I should say technically the fight in Bessemer has stretched on a long time. But the initial vote there to form a union, that did fail. And when that happened, you know what a lot of people just said was, okay, the conventional wisdom is true. You can't organize an Amazon warehouse. So the public takeaway from Bessemer not working, Jodi, is that Amazon is kind of un-unionizable. Is that the vibe? That is the vibe.

It's been a topic of conversation in union circles for so long. They know that this is the big one. This is the second largest employer in the U.S. It's on trajectory to become the first largest. This is like the defining employer. Of our time. Of our time, as my partner Karen Weiss, our colleague, often says. And it just feels from the union side like they cannot make inroads on Amazon.

Chris and Derek, is that how you saw it? As you head back to New York, having seen this failure in Bessemer, you guys make this very meaningful decision to try to form your own union, the Amazon Labor Union, the ALU, rather than join a national union. Was that based on what you had just seen? Yeah. The main reason for me was like going down there and seeing how Bessemer handled their campaign. The fact that they weren't engaging with these workers was a red flag. About working with a big union. Yeah, about working with a big union. Because I feel like unions that have been around for a long time, they have like their own approach. So if we're workers and we say we may have a

different approach than them, they're going to say, ah, you guys don't know what you're talking about. We've been doing this for years and we're going to go with that approach. We knew it was going to be hard. It was harder, you know, obviously resources, you know, money, that's what big unions provide. But the fact that we're the workers and we can connect with them, that's all we needed to really know. The rest we just going to have to can connect with them, that's all we need to really know. The rest we just going to have to do. You know, it's going to be harder for us. But I'd rather do that and fail on our terms than going behind a big union and watch them make mistakes that we know are mistakes and allow them to continue that.

So we didn't hesitate. Soon as it was over, there were some people on my team at the time that were like, you know, we should wait. They wanted to study Jane McAlevey. They wanted to study all these expertise. And they did. We signed up for the courses.

I never got a chance to take them. You know, Derek was working. Me neither. So unfortunately, we didn't get to... So you signed up for your unionization courses, but you don't end up taking them. I know. Because the timing, the iron don't end up taking them. I know.

Because the timing, the iron was hot with Bessemer. I said, if I take these courses, it's going to set us back like weeks. And I'm like, we're going to lose a lot of attention. So I said, let's go while the iron's hot. And also, I thought in my head, I said, how the hell are we going to listen to expertise when there's never been done before? In reality, we the experts. We the ones who invested into this company. We know the ins and out of the company. And that's exactly how this campaign, our campaign, played out. We'll be right back. Okay, Chris and Derek, you get back to New York after your experience in Alabama.

Tell us about how you go about trying to build your own union from scratch. We didn't know what we had no playbook. We went to Walmart, picked up two tables, four chairs and a tent. Spent $150 out of GoFundMe, by the way. And we went out to JFK, and we said, all right, let's stay by the bus stop. We just picked that spot. So you set up a tent and chairs by the bus stop. By the bus stop.

Why the bus stop? Because it's public. And we can't be removed because it's public. And the workers are going to get off at the bus stop. Exactly. They're going to get off at the bus stop. They're going to see us. And what are you doing at the bus stop? workers are going to get off at the bus stop. Exactly. They're going to get off the bus stop. They're going to see us. And what are you doing at the bus stop?

What are you saying to people at the bus stop? In the beginning, nothing. I was out there by myself. Literally. I would go there, set up the whole setup by myself on hot summer days and sit out there for hours just like that. Hands crossed. And feet up, just waiting for workers to trickle off the bus. And I would just catch them. And I tried to get as many people as

possible. And we didn't even know what we were pitching. We were just like, yo, y'all need to sign up. We're going to form a union. We didn't have too much to offer it. We only had a pamphlet and authorization cards. That's it. Wait, Jody, can you just explain to us the significance of authorization cards in forming a union? Sure. They're the first step towards forming a union. You need enough cards signed from workers to show that you have enough support to even trigger an election. Once you get enough signatures, typically it's 30 percent. Of basically everybody in the potential union.

Exactly. You file them to the National Labor Relations Board. Then you can have an official election on whether or not a union will be formed. Okay, got it. And Chris, what happened once you started hanging out at the bus stop trying to get these authorization cards signed. Amazon didn't waste no time. The first day, as soon as we set up, they came right over. You guys can't be here.

Dude coming over there yelling at us. And then we was like, nah, we ain't taking that. Yo, get the fuck out of here. And we ain't going nowhere. We ain't going nowhere. He threatened to call the cops. We said, call them. He ain't calling.

And Dirk, you are still working at Amazon, right? That seems like a very difficult and pretty awkward spot for you to be in. So tell us about this kind of dual role that you're playing, working at the same company that you're trying to

organize against. Yeah. That's complicated. Yeah. First of all, we have the TCOEW, Congress of Essential Workers shirts, so I'm wearing it throughout. Yeah. So that's complicated. Yes. First of all, we have the TCOEW, Congress of Essential Workers shirts. So I'm wearing it throughout the building. So I'm letting Amazon know right then and there, like, look, this is my stance. I'm going to continue to work and I'm going to be like the voice of the associates in the inside of the facility. Because after Chris got fired, you know, a lot of workers were scared, scared to speak out about anything in general.

So if I'm in the building, like I'm showing Amazon that I'm fearless and I'm not going to give up. And I knew that they can't, you know, if they do something about it, then it is what it is. But I'm going to go out with a fight. And what are you kind of seeing on the inside in terms of Amazon's efforts to communicate and its efforts to stop this? Well, they're saying the ALU is a third party. What's the format in which they're doing this? How are they doing this? Oh, this is a text message.

This is messages in the bathroom called the installments. So like if you're sitting down in the toilet, there's a big... On the door. On the door. What does it say? It's saying, do not talk to the ALU members. They're a group of workers with no experience

as far as having a union. They were saying, oh, you have to pay dues if you sign this card. So they were just throwing all types of jabs at us. If there's a union, they're saying to workers, you have to pay financial dues to the union. Which is true. In most cases.

It wasn't clear. It was saying, like, if you sign this authorization card, you're paying dues. Got it. If you sign an authorization card, you get to election and lose and you're not paying any dues. But, you know, me being an organizer and me being an insider, that's my job to, like, ease the tension and let them know, like, look, you sign this authorization card, you know, there's not going to be any penalty for signing the card. We just need to gather support so that we can have an election so that we can have a union. Every day, I'll be talking to workers every single day. They will either sign the card inside the building. If they didn't sign the card inside, I'd go out there, talk to Chris. And, you know, it worked.

Well, Chris, tell me more about what's going on on the outside in this tent as this progresses. What's happening at the bus stop? What's being offered at the tent? You know, I had the outside game. They had the inside game. And every day shift change. We know that we're about to see 600 to 800 workers getting on and off this bus.

But then it came to a point where you know we done signed them all up already now we like did you sign that we're asking the same people that like damn so we had to change up our strategy we was focusing more on days so now it's like all right we gotta do the overnight so now i'm telling the team y'all gotta come at a later time so y'all can stay into the morning because we got to get the night shift. And night shift was lovely. We had nights on lock from the moment we started. You know, people loved the fact that we was out there, you know, setting up bonfires.

Bonfires? Yeah. We were, you know, cooking s'mores. We were singing, you know, guitar, acoustic music and playing music. And it just felt like we built a little community right there, right at the bus stop. And basically we'd be there in the middle of the night, two, three in the morning. And workers would just come that were leaving and just sit down, didn't know us. And they would sit down and they would tell us, honestly, like really powerful stories. Sometimes we'd be out there praying holding hands crying

singing it was just like a a real you can't explain the emotions that were going on it was spiritual and that's when i knew like this is going to work like we were like a glimmer of hope for these workers because when they got off the bus if we wasn't there they're like yo where was y'all so like i knew once we got to that point, I'm like, we got something. And think about it, like, how we were saying we went to Bessemer and they weren't engaging with the workers. We had to make sure we did that consistently. So this to you is the opposite of the top-down approach you saw in Bessemer. There's people that I know and heard them say, I signed up because I saw y'all out here for the last year.

I respect the hell out of y'all. Like, they seen us. What happened to your personal lives during this period? What personal lives? We didn't have none. I didn't see my children the last 11 months as much as I saw them maybe three times in the last year. And the last time was recently, like two weeks ago. So we sacrifice.

We all sacrifice our personal lives. Amazon's 24-7. So I would tell my team that every time we're not there, we're losing. So we got to be there. One of us, two of us got to be out there. No matter what y'all doing, you got to be there. To the point that we would even sleep outside in that tent overnight and wait for the night shift workers to get off. We would have our alarm set on our phone so that the alarm go off and hold

these workers about to get off. So like that type of commitment, workers seeing us there consistently helped, you know, ease the tension. We was giving out marijuana. We was giving out books. We was giving out clothing items. We were helping workers. We were paying for people's Ubers. One time a worker came out, high blood pressure. He needed to get to the hospital.

$100 Uber, go to the hospital. Amazon refused to pay for it. Refused. They told him to go home on the bus. This man had, if he didn't get to that hospital, they immediately walked him in. He could have passed out right there. But we paid for the Uber. Worker needed ride home.

Here's $10, get on the bus. Whatever it took to get even one person, we were doing it. And we got the national agreement signed. That was in December. Now we switched up our strategy again. Okay, hang on just a moment. National agreement. Jody, can you explain what that is? Sure. So this is a really important thing that happens. They get a landmark settlement from the National Labor Relations Board that allows them to organize inside the building. So now the team is spending hours and hours a day in the break room. And there's one

particular day when Chris himself comes up to the building to deliver food to the workers inside. You are currently trespassing on Amazon property if you are not an Amazon associate. So anyone here who is not an Amazon associate. That sign over there says visitor, right? I'm a visitor. Now, I've asked you so many times. I know, but I'm a visitor. I just told you I'm a visitor, right? That day, they call the police who arrest Chris for trespassing.

They didn't just arrest me. They arrested two other workers that made it worse. Oh, yeah, now you got more hands on you. They're hurting my wrist once again. ALU organizers arrested for bullshit. They're not protecting anybody. What was the response to your arrest oh that that uh was a gem they they lost that was a gem they lost the election right there what do you mean trust me we knew that workers were upset

about me getting arrested because everybody that's seen me for the last 11 months, whatever amount of months it was at that time, they saw me giving away stuff, food, whatever, every single week, every single day. So for them to see me get arrested for giving them food, the people that were undecided or on the fence about the union, they was like full on me with y'all. That was the turning point. They lost the election right there. That's interesting because it strikes me, that's the second time that Amazon's handling of you seems to really play a key role in your understanding of how this all plays out.

The first, of course, being their decision to fire you. Right, and that's why I stood my ground. Hmm. Okay, so Chris and Derek's why I stood my ground. Hmm. Okay, so Chris and Derek, you're feeling good at this moment. Employees are upset about this arrest. You finally have the signatures you need, this show of support required to hold a vote.

And that's, of course, what happened last week. Before we get to that story, Jodi, I want to ask you what the prospects look like as you understand them heading into this vote. The conventional wisdom, I have to tell you, just based on the David and Goliath nature of the story, is that this is not going to be a successful effort. Amazon, we know, spent $4.3 million in a single year on anti-union consultants. Chris and Derek, the ALU, had a total budget of $120,000.

And then there's the fact that essentially this hasn't happened in modern times for a really large facility with thousands of workers to form a union. To take one very rare example of that, which is over a decade old, there's a slaughterhouse in North Carolina that took 15 years to organize. But if you want to find an example of it happening with a company this big, you'd probably have to go back to the autoworkers who unionized General Motors in the 1930s. So over a century ago. So look, it's awkward to say to your faces, Chris and Derek, but the conventional wisdom was that, look, this was a notable effort. This was a homespun effort, but one that ultimately could not succeed given the odds.

Yeah, which we knew. We knew that. Chris and Derek, are you at that point internalizing all this doubt? I mean, just how historic this would be. If you're being honest about this moment, before any vote counting is being done, do you realize in in most people's eyes, just how unlikely this is? Hell no. I said my prayer by myself at home. I went to the board in my favorite color.

Which is? Red. And I sat here just like this, and I watched them drink water and sweat the whole time. Well, just explain this scene. You go to the board to watch what? To watch the vote count. You're inside a government building.

National Labor Relations Board. The vote is being counted. Just set that scene. What's happening in the room? Amazon has six multi-billion dollar lawyers compared to our one pro bono lawyer on their side, six of them. And then we sit in the front, two people are allowed, one on each side gets to sit at the table in front of the ballot count. There's like four or five board agents, two or three of them are opening up the ballots and like preparing them

to be read in a smooth fashion. And then there's one person that's reading them. Then the other two are tallying them. And it's like from right to left, pretty much, you know, they're sliding. And we're sitting in front of this small table and we're watching them say yes or no. Yes, no, yes, no, yes, no. So it was boring, but. At what moment in this counting do you feel certain

that you did this, that you won? When we got down to the last two boxes and we were up 300, 400, I'm not coming back from that. I was like, I was looking back at my team, looking back over the show,

and I was, we good. What kind of communication is going on between you guys? Head nods. Head nods, smiles. Fist pumps and stuff. Yeah. I saluted the cameras.

Zoom camera. Everybody watching. She was like, yo, that was fire. Do it again. I did it again. I was trying to tell people, stop being nervous. We got this. And I'm not going to lie. Several members of my team thought we lost too. I ain't going to call them out right now, but they

know who they are. They thought that we were going to lose, and, you know, here we are. A-L-U! A-L-U! A-L-U! We got champagne! We got champagne! This is the first union in American history. Let's go! Do you have a message for Jeff Bezos? Oh, we want to thank Jeff Bezos for going to space because when he was up there, we were signing people up. How are you processing that? I still can't believe it because even though I was out at that bus stop,

I was looking at certain articles, quotes from people, expertise. So y'all don't know what the hell y'all talking about. We out here, y'all can say what y'all want. I know what we were doing. And I was like, they have no idea. And they were best of my best of my best of my best. I said, we didn't need none of that.

We got a worker's budget and sometimes no budget. So our campaign was built off of pure love and caring for one another. That's it. We got contacted by over 50 buildings, different buildings in different states. Amazon workers around the country. Around the country. This interest in California, Texas, Arizona, Michigan is growing. So I do have to say in many ways,

the hard part is still ahead for you guys. I'm sure you know that. Yeah, we know that. You won the right to unionize, but the next step is negotiating a labor contract. And in talking to all of our colleagues, talking to you, Jody, about this, one of the most difficult tasks for any union at birth is negotiating a contract with a company, any company, let alone a company like Amazon, which is going to be pouring millions and millions of dollars into making it really hard for you to achieve that contract. And without a contract, into making it really hard for you to achieve that contract. And without a contract, the union is not really much of anything.

So how aware are you of that? People should know me by now. We're fighters. That's one thing for sure. We're fighters. We're going to get a contract, whether they like it or not. And whatever way, by any means, whatever it takes, we'll get it done. I'm just reflecting on your journey here,

Chris. You've gone from dissatisfied Amazon worker to leader of this movement. I mean, on some level, are you glad this all happened? Because I wonder if you feel like through this process, you found out what you're really capable of? You know what? I found out that, you know, I am who I've been my whole entire life. I've always been a leader. They just didn't know that. You know, I was born this way. I'm my mom's oldest child. My dad's incarcerated. So I didn't have real guidance. I had to learn and adapt to society my whole life. And I had to grow up, no, obviously a little bit faster than other kids because I had responsibilities at a younger age, babysitting my younger brother while my mom's at work. I watched my mom fight every day of my life. My mom was a part of the reunion. She was 1199. She actually fought for a contract change. And when I got a job at Amazon, I thought it would make my life better, take care of my family, be the head of the household.

But they took everything away from me. So you take everything away from somebody with nothing to lose in the middle of a pandemic. You just created a monster. And that's exactly what I'm showing people is like who I am. I've been this way. So at least let me do something that's going to help people out. Well, Chris and Derek, thank you very much. Thank you for having us.

Thank you. And Jodi, thank you very much. A pleasure. I'm grateful for all your time. On Friday, as expected, Amazon sought to challenge the legitimacy of the vote that created the Amazon Labor Union, filing a formal objection with the National Labor Relations Board that listed 25 complaints. In its filing, Amazon argued that the results of the election should be thrown out and a new election held, in part because of the unorthodox tactics used by the ALU, including handing out marijuana to workers, which Amazon said amounted to buying votes. to buying votes.

But labor experts said it would be an uphill battle for Amazon, warning that employers rarely prevail in throwing out union elections. We'll be right back. to oversee its six-week-old invasion of Ukraine in an attempt to bring order to what has been a chaotic military operation which is now focused on Ukraine's east. The commander, Alexander Dvornikov, is known for his brutal tactics. He previously oversaw Russia's 2015 military operation in Syria, during which Russian forces committed widespread atrocities against the civilian population. Meanwhile, in a dramatic show of solidarity, the Prime Minister of Britain, Boris Johnson, made an unannounced visit to Kyiv, where he met with Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky, promised him additional military aid, and joined him for a heavily guarded tour of the city's streets.

Video of that tour showed several Ukrainian civilians thanking Johnson for taking such a risky trip to the country's embattled capital. It's nice to meet you, and we simply wish to keep supporting the people of Ukraine for as long as it takes. Today's episode was produced by Diana Nguyen and Muj Zaydi, with

help from Claire Tennesketter and Caitlin Roberts. It was edited by Lisa Tobin, Michael Benoit, and John Ketchum. Contains original music from Marion Lozano and Dan Powell, and was engineered by Chris Wood.

Our theme music is by Jim Brunberg and Ben Landsberg of Wonderly. Special thanks to Karen Weiss, Martin DiCicco, and Steve Mang. That's it for The Daily. I'm Michael Barbaro. See you tomorrow.