The Daily - How Will the Taliban Rule This Time?

Episode Date: September 7, 2021

Since the Taliban took over Kabul, Afghanistan’s capital, last month, many have wondered what kind of rulers they will be.The memory of the Taliban of the 1990s — the public executions, the whippings in the streets and the harsh rules preventing women from leaving the house unaccompanied — has filled some with fear.This time around, what will their rule mean for ordinary Afghans?Guest: Matthieu Aikins, a writer based in Afghanistan for The New York Times.Sign up here to get The Daily in your inbox each morning. And for an exclusive look at how the biggest stories on our show come together, subscribe to our newsletter. Background reading: Since the fall of Kabul, Taliban officials have been scrambling to take up the functions of government.When the last of the American troops left Afghanistan, the Taliban celebrated victory. But the scenes of triumph were clouded by the prospect of famine and financial collapse.For more information on today’s episode, visit nytimes.com/thedaily. Transcripts of each episode will be made available by the next workday.

Matt, now that the United States has entirely withdrawn from Afghanistan, the question I think just about everybody has is what kind of rulers will the Taliban be? Hey, this is like a lot of gunfire happening right now. I can hear that. Wow. Yeah. Yeah, I think they've announced something, guys, but it's definitely going to be a recording. Yeah. Yep. I think they've announced something, guys. But it's definitely going to interfere with our recording. It sounds a lot like the gunfire that erupted after the last American flight had left.

As you can hear, it's very intense. But it's happy, I think. Wow, that is really, really, I mean, we're hearing this loud and clear. Yeah, there's just tons of fighters everywhere, and they're just letting rip. What does it look like out there? I can't really see. Obviously, you shouldn't get too close to the window. I'll go upstairs now and see if I can see the tracer rounds I saw last time.

Hang on a sec. Okay, so now I'm upstairs in my house. I'm looking out the window. Wow. Oh my god. That's like right next door to my house. Someone just fired off an AK. I can just see tracer rounds arcing through the sky all around me. Out the window. Out the window.

There's a lot of Taliban at the level right now. They've got a lot of ammo that they captured from the government. And they're victorious, so they're in a mood to celebrate. And this is how they've been doing it. So this is kind of the sound of victory. We're now living in the Taliban's Afghanistan. From The New York Times, I'm Michael Barbaro. This is The Daily. Over the weekend, the Taliban celebrated what they said was the capture of the Panjshir Valley,

the final holdout in its swift takeover of Afghanistan. Now that the fighting is over, the Taliban is turning to the task of building a government and running the country. My colleague, Matthew Akins, has been talking to the Taliban about what that will look like. It's Tuesday, September 7th. September 7th. I'm going to ask that first question again. Okay. Matt, now that the United States has entirely withdrawn from Afghanistan,

the question I think just about everybody has is, what kind of rulers will the Taliban be? And I know that's something you have been trying to figure out. Yeah, well, it's been on my and everyone else's mind ever since the day they came to the city three weeks ago. It happened very suddenly. I was actually at lunch and heard from my driver who came in that the Taliban had entered Kabul, went out in the streets. People were panicking, entered Kabul, went out in the streets. People were panicking. People were running down the sidewalk.

And I think the fear that was building in everyone's mind, especially in Kabul, was that image of the Taliban government in the 90s. The public executions, the whipping people in the streets, the harsh rules about women not leaving the house unaccompanied. So what I've been trying to figure out over the last three weeks is just how much of that old government is going to be present in the new government that we're all living under now. And how did you go about trying to figure that out? Well, it seemed to me that one of the best ways was to go and meet the Taliban and talk to them. And a couple days after the fall, the city actually had the and meet the Taliban and talk to them. And a couple days after the fall,

the city actually had the opportunity when the Taliban called their first press conference. The press conference was held at the Government Media Information Centre. That's a location in downtown Kabul where the government would have all these press conferences. And this was probably the first one that I was actually kind of interested to go see. And one of the reasons was because the Taliban

spokesman, Zabiullah Mujahid, was going to be the one giving the press conference. Now, Zabiullah Mujahid is quite famous. He's been the Taliban's spokesman for more than a decade, but he's always been incognito. We've never actually seen him. It's just been a voice, not a face. So, of course, I was curious to see him for myself.

And the Taliban had actually managed the stage quite well. You know, you have this table where the press conference is at, but on either side in the government center, there are these marble staircases. And so in front of a crowd of reporters, mostly Afghan reporters, he descended the Sarah case. He turned out to be a somewhat diminutive gentleman

from Paktia who spoke fluent Pashto and Persian, and he delivered the first press conference of the Taliban government. And what does he say in his remarks? And what does he say in his remarks? The most important thing that he said was in essence that the war is over and we are going to give a general amnesty to everyone who fought against us, whether they're civilians or military. Everyone is pardoned.

Everyone can go home and live their normal lives without fear. And we are all going to work together and build a new Afghanistan, one that's free of foreign interference. And what did you make of that, especially the amnesty claim? Well, the amnesty claim was something that we had already been hearing for the last couple weeks, I think, in the later stage of this offensive where they're capturing large parts of the country. They started to announce that they were offering amnesty. And I had seen when they had captured cities like Herat and Kandahar, there hadn't been like a bloodbath. These are big cities. They had negotiated surrender deals

with the government forces. So it was in keeping with that, but this was very new. The situation was very uncertain. And of course, neither I nor anyone else really knew how much of this to believe. And so at this point, thinking back to that question you had in your head

about the 1990s Taliban, which was so brutal, and whether or not this is a changed Taliban, at least in messaging, this would seem to be a changed Taliban? In messaging, the Taliban have definitely changed. I mean, for one, they've made very savvy use of multimedia photography, which were banned under the old Taliban regime. So there's no doubt in my mind that the Taliban have evolved, like any group, over a 20-year period. The question was really, you know,

what would this mean for people in Afghanistan? What would this mean on the ground once they came to power? So I had a lot of questions after this press conference, and I wanted to talk about them with the spokesman, Zabiullah Majid. So I asked if I could do an interview with him, and he said yes. This was going to be the first sit-down interview

that he had done with any Western news organization since coming to Kabul. So I rode down to the Ministry of Information and Culture with my colleague Jim Hoylebruck, who's a photographer for The Times, and got there, saw a site that I still haven't gotten used to, which are these bearded, turbaned fighters outside a government building in Kabul. So the Taliban guards let us in. We go in to see the spokesman, Zabiel Al-Mujahid. He's in there with a couple of aides, including an English translator. But we sat down and actually did the interview together in Persian, which both of us speak. And what are you thinking as you're in that office staring at

this spokesman for the Taliban? Well, you know, I've been covering this conflict for 13 years now. And during that time, the Taliban has been the insurgency. And now here I am sitting in a government office talking to the spokesman for the new government. And that's a strange moment, a pivot that I think the whole world is having to do right now. This new relationship that we're going to have with the Taliban going forward as the government of Afghanistan. So I was trying to wrap my head around this and treat it like a normal interview, in a sense, you know, even though it was quite strange at the same time. And where did you start that conversation?

Well, I said to him, you know, it's amazing that you're so famous to all of us journalists especially, but we don't know anything about you. Could you tell us a little? Yes. Thank you. In the name of God, the Most Gracious, the Most Merciful. I'm Zabihullah Mujahid. So he told me that he was from Paktia province, that he's 43 years old,

that he had gone to a famous madrasa, which is an Islamic seminary called Hakanian. Then as we get into the conversation, I ask him, you know, was he as surprised as everyone else was that Kabul had fallen so swiftly? And what did he say? And he said, yes, they were. They had expected, you know, to have to negotiate for the handover of the city and they had to rush in to prevent looting.

But in general, no. He thought that the people of Afghanistan were tired of war, and they had supported the Taliban, and that's why they had made such a rapid advance across the country. And does that feel accurate to you? Does that feel like the spin of a spokesperson? I think that the Taliban does have some support from some people in some parts of the country that's genuine. But based on what I've seen on the ground,

the conversations I've had with Afghans, it was really the weakness of the American-backed government. It's corruption, it's unpopularity. And so people weren't really willing to support it anymore. And in comparison, the Taliban maybe didn't seem that bad, especially in the rural areas, which bore the brunt of the conflict, the brunt of the night raids, the bombing. So the weakness of the government, more so than the popularity of the Taliban,

I think explains the swift collapse. more so than the popularity of the Taliban, I think explains the swift collapse. Right. Because the scenes we saw in Kabul did not resemble any kind of welcoming party for the Taliban or the popularity of the Taliban. Instead, it was tens of thousands of people trying to flee the country on American planes. And so what does this Taliban spokesman say about those people? What was his reaction to those scenes? Well, he said it was probably the U.S. and the West to blame by announcing that they would take tens of thousands of Afghans. They had created this hope among everyone, basically, that this was their chance to emigrate to the West.

And he said, well, you know, actually, these are our doctors, our engineers, our professors who are leaving the country and they're going to end up as cooks and dishwashers in America. And that's just inhuman. And he repeats what he said in the press conference, which is the Taliban won't persecute people who work for the Americans, and they want to, quote, build the future and forget the past. And it's an appealing message on paper, but the question, of course, is, is it true that all will be forgiven and all efforts will be to focus on the future?

And what do we know so far about how much that promise is being kept by the Taliban and Taliban fighters on the ground? There's no doubt that there have been killings and other acts of retribution that have taken place around the country. there have been killings and other acts of retribution that have taken place around the country. But the question is really, are these acts of individuals or are they going to be officially sanctioned or at least go unpunished by the government? And that's something that we really have to watch closely going forward. That's interesting.

So you're saying there very well may be revenge killings going on, which would, of course course violate the vows that the Taliban are making here, but they may not be revenge killings that the Taliban knows about or has in any way authorized. Yeah, and I think that today we don't see any evidence of an organized campaign of killing or mass repression that's taking place in Kabul or the cities where we have a reasonable picture of what's happening. Now, it's only been three weeks, but there has not been that kind of organized reprisals. You have to understand, though, that this country's been at war for 20 years,

which is kind of a continuation of a 40-year conflict. There's a cycle of violence that's been going on. There's been atrocities committed by both sides by all parties over the last 20 years that's been documented and so in a sense what the taliban are trying to do with this declaration of amnesty and peace is they're trying to stop that cycle they're trying to grind it to a halt and so so if it's continuing, if it's ongoing, that honestly isn't a surprise. It's not good, but it's not a surprise. And the question really is,

is the government going to hold its own people accountable and are they going to try to prevent that? We'll be right back. Islam in the public and private spheres of life now that the Taliban have taken over, and what that would mean for people whose lives have changed a lot in the 20 years since the Taliban was ousted, especially women and girls. Because under the American-backed government, women's attendance in schools, for example, it surged. Women's presence in the government reached a historic high.

What did he have to say about all that? Well, he said very clearly that they had fought to establish an Islamic system and that it would be Islamic law, which is their interpretation of it, something that for us would seem quite fundamentalist. But we talked, for example, about the role of women, and I asked whether women would be allowed to leave their homes, whether they'd be allowed to work, whether they'd be allowed to study. Mm-hmm. And he said that, you know, they would be allowed to do all those things within the limits of Islam, and he gave an example.

We talked about the concept of a mahram or a male guardian that women are supposed to have in some circumstances. He said that there was a misunderstanding about that. According to their interpretation, the mahram was only necessary for long journeys of three nights or more. And that's so a woman wouldn't lead a male companion. She could go out alone to the market, to university, to the office. So not exactly a Western or feminist understanding

of what women would be allowed to do, but it meant that, for the most part, women would be allowed to go on and continue their daily lives. In the same way, he talked about the workplace and the school, and he said that women had the same right to work and study as men did, but that under Islam, they needed to be segregated from men. They needed to have their own separate space, separate classrooms, separate parts of the office. And if they did so, it would actually mean that women from conservative families in Afghanistan,

of which there are many, would feel more free or their families would feel more free to allow them to go to school and go to work. So what he is saying is that, no, women will not have complete freedom, but they will have some freedom, but it will be governed by Islamic law. For example, three-night trips will require a male escort, and men and women must keep a certain distance. I mean, to the Western ear, that sounds quite restrictive, but to the Taliban, does that sound liberal? Well, if it is actually carried out as described, then it would be a more modernist vision. You know, instead of forcing women to stay inside their homes, they're going to reorganize society so that men and women can both work and study segregated by gender. But it's an open question, and of course I was aware of the fact that here we were, two men discussing the fate of women in Afghanistan

without any women present in the room. So finally, Matt, what did he end up telling you about what this new Taliban government would look like, how it would operate? Well, I asked him, you know, was this going to be a democracy? And he said, no, democracy is not something that has a root in our society. It's not compatible with the principles of Islam. In democracy, the people are sovereign, but in Islam, God is sovereign.

The Koran is sovereign. And in Islam, we have the Shura as a way of representing the people. And what is the Shura? The Shura just means council, and the council can be a lot of things, but in essence, it's going to be elites, it's going to be elites. It's going to be tribal elders.

It's going to be perhaps representative of trade groups and merchants. So he's not describing anything resembling the existing Afghan government, which is supposed to be a democracy. Instead, he's describing an Islamic government that will not have elections. He's describing an Islamic government that will not have elections. Yeah, and then they're offering an alternate Islamist vision of government and society that rejects one of the basic elements of legitimacy in our international order, which is democracy, which is why so many governments that are only democracy in name only nevertheless use that word.

That's interesting. The Taliban, you're saying, is being very upfront about the fact that they don't want to pretend to be in any way democratic. There aren't going to be any elections. They're being very candid about what they are and what they aren't. Yes. So after I got done with the interview, I was really left with the question of, you know, what does this vision look like in practice?

And even though the Taliban were surprised, like everyone else, by the sudden fall of Kabul, they've been preparing to take power for more than a decade with this shadow government system that they've had, where they've appointed heads of commissions for sectors like health and education. And it's this shadow government system that actually came in and took power in Kabul that entered the ministries. And so I thought, you know, I should go and see what that actually looked like at one of these ministries. So Matt, which government ministry did you go visit?

I went to the Public Works Ministry, at one of these ministries. So Matt, which government ministry did you go visit? I went to the Public Works Ministry, which is responsible for things like roads and bridges. If you just then say your name and where you're from. My name is Bakhtar Ahmad Sharafat. I am from Zabul province of Afghanistan. To meet Malawi Bakhtar Sharafat, who is the Taliban's commissioner for public works. Did you have a job in the previous Taliban government?

In the beginning, I was secretary of Kandahar governor. He was part of the government in the 90s, though a fairly junior official. And three years ago, when they created the shadow commission for public works, he was appointed the head. Do you have some other training or education? And I asked him if he had a background in any of this stuff. What was his training?

He had been religiously trained. He was a Ma in this stuff. What was his training? He had been religiously trained. He was a Maulawi scholar. But he was very enthusiastic about the project that he was going to work on. But it sounds from what you just said that he may not be all that qualified to do this job, to be the head of public works for the entirety of Afghanistan as a religious scholar. No, and I think this is a dynamic that's going to play out across the whole of government as the Taliban takes charge. The people that they trust that are going to be in power don't have technical backgrounds. trusts that are going to be in power don't have technical backgrounds.

They've spent the last 20 years engaged in guerrilla warfare, so they're going to need to work with the current bureaucracy, the technical staff. That's one reason why they're trying to reassure people and call them back, is because they don't have the qualifications to govern the country on their own. And what does reassuring government employees

and making them want to show up to work, what does it look like in the case of this new Taliban minister? So he said that when he had come to Kabul, the previous minister, most of the government leadership had fled. Very soon, within one week, 10 days, everything's changed. But the other employees were still there for the most part. So he asked the directors to show them where their offices had been and told them, well, those are still your offices.

And he asked them, you know, did they have vehicles? And he said, yeah, well, those are still your vehicles. Here are the keys. I want you to keep doing your work. Those are still your vehicles. Here are the keys. I want you to keep doing your work. We should not be afraid.

We should not be scared. We should live together. We should bear, tolerate each other. But people are afraid of Taliban. But now they know the Taliban. We should not be afraid. We should not be scared. They came out from their home. He said he tried to reassure them and tell them he wasn't going to harm them

and that they should work with them to rebuild the country. What about Afghans outside of government? How are people in the streets and in the homes interpreting or responding to these early messages and these assurances from the Taliban about what their life will be like or won't be like? Well, you know, people have slowly come back into the streets of Kabul. There's still a lot less people and certainly less women than you would have seen before. But in general, I haven't seen the Taliban fighters misbehaving with people or treating them harshly or stopping them if they're smoking or don't have beards or wearing Western clothes or playing music. But the interesting thing is that, you know, a lot of people just stop doing those things on their own, you know, I think out of fear.

So what you're describing, Matt, is a form of self-censorship, basically. Which is interesting because the Taliban spokesman you interviewed said that he was hoping to not have to dictate new rules for people. And it sounds like in a way, the Taliban doesn't need to enforce any new rules. People are changing just because they are in power. Yeah, I think people are censoring themselves. And that is a bit worrying. I had a conversation with an Afghan friend the other day who he said that he had hoped that Afghans were trying to convince the Taliban and change the Taliban.

There would be this kind of pressure from the side of society. And it's funny because it's actually one of the most interesting things that Zabiel Al-Mujahid, the spokesman, told me in the interview. I had said to him, the Taliban were a rurally based movement. You know, they'd spent the last 20 years in the mountains, in the villages, and that coming to the city must be so strange for them. It must be so different for them. And he agreed, but he said, you know, that the Taliban have come to the city and they might change the city, but he thought that also the city might change the Taliban. Hmm. But what would it mean for both sides to evolve? And do you think that's really possible given there's so much baggage here on both sides?

Well, we're in a situation now where the Taliban has come to power, but they do need the cooperation of the rest of the country to govern effectively. So you have on one side the Taliban and its conservative supporters, and on the other you have a more secular society in places like Kabul. So I think that the debate over whether Afghanistan will develop as a westernizing liberal democracy through an international project that was ultimately sustained by a military force is over, right? That war has been lost. And it's very easy to imagine the worst-case scenarios.

There's a lot of fear. But perhaps people can learn to live together, can find some common ground, and the struggle will go on, you know, but in a peaceful way for the future of Afghanistan. Right. And that if is a very big if, if those assurances hold. If those assurances hold. And I think that's one reason why it's important for the international community,

including journalists, to stay here, to monitor what's happening, to help how we can to hold the Taliban to those promises. But the fact of the matter is, is that it's still early days. And I think that most Afghans are just trying to survive and are holding their breath. Well, Matt, thank you very much. My pleasure. On Sunday, the Taliban faced an early test of their assurances

when a group of about 100 women staged a protest in Kabul, demanding that women be included in the Taliban's new government. Taliban fighters responded with violence, using tear gas, rifle butts, and clubs to beat the women and end the protest. We'll be right back. Here's what else you need to know today.

Over the weekend, the governors of several states said that runaway COVID infection rates had left their states in crisis. Well, our situation is dire. We are setting case records. We have a record number of Kentuckians in the hospital battling COVID, in the ICU battling for their lives. We have a record number of families that are praying for their loved one who is on a ventilator and needing that assistance to breathe. In Kentucky, where there are now more than 4,000 new infections a day, Governor Andy Beshear told NBC News that rules put in place by Republican lawmakers have barred him from taking common-sense steps like mandating masks. If I had the ability to do it right now, we would have a masking order when

you are in public and indoors. We know that's a proven way to slow the spread of the virus. Meanwhile, the governors of both Oregon and Idaho said they are running out of ICU beds. Oregon said it has only 50 beds available. Idaho said it has just four. Today's episode was produced by Caitlin Roberts, Lindsay Garrison, Claire Tennisgetter, and Eric Krupke, with help from Nina Potok. It was edited by Lisa Chow, contains original music by Dan Powell and Marian Lozano

and engineered by Corey Schreppel. Special thanks to Douglas Shoresman. That's it for The Daily. I'm Michael Barbaro. See you tomorrow.