The Daily - ‘I Thought I Was Going to Die’: A Capitol Police Officer Recounts Jan. 6

Episode Date: March 10, 2021

When Officer Harry Dunn reporter for work at the Capitol on the morning of Jan. 6, he expected a day of relatively normal protests. But the situation soon turned dangerous.Today, we talk with Officer Dunn about his experience fending off rioters during the storming of the Capitol.Guest: Officer Harry Dunn, a Capitol Police officer who was on duty during the storming of the Capitol. Sign up here to get The Daily in your inbox each morning. And for an exclusive look at how the biggest stories on our show come together, subscribe to our newsletter. Background reading: “Black officers fought a different battle” on Jan. 6, Officer Harry Dunn said. Here is what he saw and heard when rioters, including white supremacists, stormed the Capitol.For more information on today’s episode, visit nytimes.com/thedaily. Transcripts of each episode will be made available by the next workday. 

You call me Harry. Hi there. Hi. Officer Dunn, good evening. How are you? Good. How are you? Good.

We just got instructed to call Officer Dunn Harry, so. Yeah, you call me Harry. Not going to happen. Well, I'm calling you Mike, so. You can call me Mike, but I refuse to call a member of the United States Capitol Police anything other than officer. Fair enough, if you insist. From The New York Times, I'm Michael Barbaro. This is The Daily.

Congressional hearings into the January 6th insurrection at the Capitol have exposed major failures in the preparation and conduct of the United States Capitol Police, the special force assigned to protect the building and those inside of it. Capitol Police officials have now given their testimony. But the story of what that day was like for rank-and-file officers themselves has been largely untold. Those officers were either discouraged from publicly speaking, or were afraid to out of concern for their safety. Today, one Capitol Police officer shares his story. It's Wednesday, March 10th. Okay, now that you are ready to tell your story publicly, tell us about yourself. Who are you? I am a father to a beautiful nine-year-old girl. I am a Black man who happens to be a police officer. I am a caring person who wants to see everybody in life live to their fullest potential

and treat each other with kindness. That's who I am in a nutshell. Officer Harry Dunn grew up in the suburbs of Washington, D.C. Maryland, to be exact. Prince George's County, Maryland. As I was looking for different careers to choose, I found out information about the Capitol Police. And once you learn about a little bit more about it,

the benefits were really pretty good at the time. And from his first day on the job, he says he was awed by the Capitol. It's a historic place. You know, it's such a monumental place. It's the nation's capital. It's so prestigious. But mindful of its history.

Looking at the Capitol as a Black person, just knowing the history of it and how slaves were crucial in the building standing. They are the reason that building is, they built it. And when you take a step back and actually think about it, it gets overwhelming. You're just like, wow, look at how far we've come. It gets overwhelming. You're just like, wow, look at how far we've come. And then you got events like the 6th, and you say, wow, maybe we haven't come that far at all. According to congressional testimony, by the morning of the 6th, the leadership of the Capitol Police were aware of the strong possibility for violence that day.

But when Officer Dunn reported to work, he says he was expecting a relatively normal day of protests. Just a First Amendment protest and people coming up there to express their pleasure or displeasure with Congress, which is people's right. Part of the condition of Officer Dunn speaking to us is that he cannot discuss the conduct of his superiors or describe their communications with him, but he can share what happened that day from his own perspective. And he says that shortly after noon, he started to receive calls on his radio that the crowd marching on the Capitol had turned violent. He eventually took a position on the west side of the Capitol. And he says that that's when he realized just how dangerous the situation had become. I was out there with a long gun, an M4, a rifle,

and you're out there in an elevated position with this rifle looking down on thousands of thousands of people. And these weren't people out there passing out pamphlets. and these weren't people out there passing out pamphlets. They had bad intentions, and we know they were armed because there were guns found and confiscated, and people were arrested. So imagine the ones that we didn't find. So we know they were armed. You're out there, and I'm this big target,

and I'm thinking to myself, I am going to get taken out. I am going to get shot. As the crowd stormed the barricades below him, Officer Dunn says he left his position to tend to fellow officers who had come under attack. So I'm up there helping officers that have been pepper sprayed and gassed. I'm helping decon them. pepper sprayed and gassed i'm helping decon them that was like a safe spot where we had we were had an officer hold right there and we got water and we're deconing these officers who can't decontaminate if they have been exposed to gas bombs and pepper spray and smoke grenades we were taking them up there washing that stuff out of their eyes,

making sure they were capable of going back into the fight. So that's what I was assisting with initially. As that was going on, they started to grow rowdy on the east side of the Capitol. And that is where the first initial breaches happened. And that's when we teamed up in teams of two to respond inside the building to assist officers inside that needed help. Once we got word that there were people inside, we had to go because that is uncharted territory. I mean, the whole day was, but you got people inside the Capitol and Congress is in session. The vice president is overseeing proceedings. So absolutely, we got to go. This is,

whoa, here we go, guys, let's go. And describe that scene inside the Capitol as you respond. Well, as we're responding to calls, there was an officer down. It was an officer who was trapped, surrounded by rioters. There was a call for officer needs assistance holding a doorway. And then another officer calls out. They're coming through the windows also. Then there are calls for another officer down, another officer down. We can't breathe.

There's gas in here. They're throwing fire extinguishers. There's some kind of explosion that just went off. There's shots fired. It's just, it's chaos. The calls became so frequent and so many that we couldn't do two-man teams anymore because there weren't enough officers to go around

for people that needed assistance. So everybody now were just one-man teams. And then you get upstairs and you're looking around. It literally just looked like just a free-for-all. People just running around with their flags out. It's smoke everywhere. It's pepper spray in the air. People are hugging statues and taking pictures

and yelling and screaming all in the Capitol. This sacred place, you know, what represents a pinnacle of democracy. And you're seeing all of this. And in your mind mind it's like i cannot believe what i'm seeing right now but you don't have time to process all that because you have to restore some kind of order i was watching this live I think a lot of us were watching this live and I had started watching what I thought was going to be a proceeding in the House and the

Senate, but it all changed very quickly and it changed most quickly for you. But I think for all of us who watched these events unfold through videos, what stood out was that, yes, there was this huge volume of rioters coming at you all. And you all seem to be making a decision, which I want to try to understand, to not use force. I remember thinking to myself, will they use force? Will an officer raise their gun? Will they shoot their gun, given the dynamics here? And with one exception that resulted in a rioter being killed, that really didn't happen. That's a very complicated question to answer. I'm going to err on the side of not saying something without clearly thinking it through. And I'm just going to, I'm just going to, I'm not going to address that. Um, I apologize. I wish I could, um, because I know a lot of people want to know why the hell

didn't you shoot them? Um, when, and I'll just tease it a little bit when you say shoot them which one all of them they were freaking possessed zombies like it was insane they were just no matter what they just kept coming and coming and coming and there were so of them. There were so many of them. And it would just wave after wave after wave after wave. And it was like, where does it end? Okay. Again, a question you may find frustrating. Were there ever any instructions given that day about whether or not or how to use force? No, I'm not going to discuss anything that has anything to do with any instructions we were or were not given. I'm not going to discuss that. Okay. that I can only discuss about my specific experiences,

what I saw, but that does not have anything to do with talking about my department, because I'm just speaking for myself now. I'm gonna give this one last try, and you can avoid this last answer too. Was there ever a moment, officer, where as you surveyed this situation, looked at the numbers, the intent, the stubbornness, everything you just described of these rioters, and thought to yourself, I should use force? I, officer, I should use force.

I thought that I was going to die, but I did not know who it was going to be by. So I think that goes back to the point where, who do you, who, who do you use force against? Can't use force against everybody. Um, can't use force on somebody. Cause you think that somebody's going to do something bad. Who? Just because I thought that it was going to happen? Who do I shoot? Who do I shoot? If somebody knows, tell me.

Please, please tell me. Who was I supposed to shoot? It's so striking to hear you say that even with a powerful rifle in your hands, as a member of the United States Capitol Police Force, you are terrified. It's problematic when you start talking about using deadly force against people and using the fear for your life thing because that's an emotion just because i was scared isn't a reason for why i should have taken somebody's life i know i said i wasn't going to go into force and that that's all i going to say about that. I'm going to move on. I'm going to move on from that. I'm struck by this image that you're describing of you up against

so many people and it reminded me of that now viral video of Officer Eugene Goodman, one of your colleagues. He's running up the stairs of the Capitol on his own with what feels like dozens of rioters chasing after him. I will stop you real quick.

I'm going to say more than dozens. I feel like hundreds. I mean, you're just watching that. You just have this overwhelming sensation of how outnumbered you all seemed. There were people around me, but you felt like you were alone because there's so many people. around me, but you felt like you were alone because there's so many people, you know, I've had a buddy coworker come to me who at the time couldn't see a thing because he got blasted with bear spray to his face and he can't see anything. But he told me he was comforted once he heard my voice and I say, Hey, I got you.

He was comforted at that moment, you know. But it was, we were extremely outnumbered. It's possible you're not going to answer this question, but. You got to try anyway. Did you feel that there was sufficient, personally, did you feel that there was sufficient personally? Did you feel that there was sufficient backup provided? One of the things that recently came up in these hearings is that there was something like a three-hour gap between when the Capitol Police, your force, asked for assistance from the National Guard and when the White House responded to that request. And in that moment, did you hear any calls for backup?

I mean, you got your radio on. So that's the thing. With your radio on, you really, you can't hear much with everything that was going on. So I can't sit there and say, oh yes, at this time, they absolutely asked for backup. I can't go into that. All I know is that once people got there, we secured the building and we were able to

restore democracy and safety to that building. Was there a moment where you wondered to yourself, I wonder this as someone watching it from quite far away, where's the backup? When will people in uniforms just swarm this building? No. I wasn't thinking about no logistics. I was thinking about surviving. That's it. That's it. That's it. I didn't have time to think about, okay, you know what? FBI, police is close. Or, oh, you know what? maybe they could call it, you know, Andrews Air Force Base isn't too far. I didn't think about that crap.

I just, let's survive. Let's survive, guys. Hey, my buddy right here is down. Come here. Let me drag you to a safe place where you can recover and get back in the fight. That's what i was thinking about i want to ask you a sensitive question how present was another one how how present was your identity as a black man a Black officer in all of this. We know that there were people in that crowd who espoused hateful, racist, white supremacist point of views. So be direct, because I don't understand what you mean.

How present was it? Like, what do you mean? Were you encountering people who were explicit in their views about race? Absolutely. Absolutely. Absolutely. And I didn't realize that until after I told my story, a couple of my co-workers who are Black

shared with me their racist experiences that day. And while I wasn't surprised, I was just like, wow, I didn't know. My experience happened when I encountered a group. It was a tactic used by me because I was exhausted. I can't fight nobody else. I can't, I'm tired. And it's like 30 or 40, 50 people. I, I can't fight y'all. Like, let's talk, man. So they started talking about how Joe Biden didn't win the election. And I was like, all right, let's, let's, okay, good. We're talking. We're talking now. That means I'm not fighting and I'm not being exhausted. And I'd said, I voted for Joe Biden. Does my vote not count? Wow. And then, and then that's when the girl said, you hear that? This N word voted for Joe Biden, guys.

And then the whole 20, 30, 40, 50 people that were there said this N-word voted for Joe Biden. Boo! I said that I got called a couple dozen times, but it was one instance by a couple dozen people. What was your reaction to being called a racial slur in that moment when you were being outnumbered? You were physically threatened. It didn't register with me as I'm being demonized for my race. It didn't register with me at that

time. Why? Because I'm exhausted and I'm trying to just survive. I don't have time to process being called names. I didn't have time to process that. But finally, once we got an opportunity to get the building secure and it's finally a little bit of normalcy starting to restore itself, I saw a familiar friend face, a close friend of mine, and we just looked at each other and we sat down and you kind of just like locked eyes and you're just like what what the hell happened what the hell just happened and I told him my experience throughout the day and my experience about

what happened me being called a racial slur. And that's where the whole freaking phrase, is this America? That's my phrase, you know, but I wasn't trying to say no damn catch phrase, like whatever. You know, I didn't know that that was going to be used in the impeachment trial. I didn't know that. in the impeachment trial. I didn't know that. One of our Capitol officers who defended us that day was a longtime veteran of our force. For several hours straight,

as the marauders punched and kicked and mauled and spit upon and hit officers with baseball bats and fire extinguishers, cursed the cops and stormed our Capitol. He defended us, and he lived every minute of his oath of office. And afterwards, overwhelmed by emotion, he broke down in the rotunda. And he cried for 15 minutes. in the rotunda.

And he cried for 15 minutes. And he shouted out, I got called an N-word 15 times today. And then he recorded, I sat down with one of my buddies, another black guy in tears, just started streaming down my face

and I said, what the F, man? Is this America? We'll be right back. I wonder what it was like for you the next day, January 7th. You wake up. You're angry. How are you feeling?

You're angry. You're angry. You're tired, but you're angry. Like I was, I was, I, you know, hell, it's probably people that haven't really processed what happened even now, two months later. It was a traumatic, traumatic, historical event. And I don't think people realize the magnitude of this. So at this particular time, at the 7th of January, I didn't have time to process my hurt, my pain. I didn't have time for that. Because it's right back to work and do your job. Let's keep this place safe. Y'all come back today if y'all want. Did you come back? Yeah, absolutely. And you know what? My coworkers did too.

They fought their asses off and they was ready to do it again the next day. I just want to picture that first day back. Did you all just do your job without any formal meetings? Were you just having casual conversations in the field that day? We relied on each other a lot for each other's support. And we talked to each other, like the conversation that I had with my friend in the rotunda like that, that conversation was had 10, 15 more times over the next 24 hours. We were each other's therapy because everybody that was there had a different story to tell.

And everyone was just as every story was just as traumatic as the next one and as the next one. And if you had to pick the easiest day, you couldn't. In my mind, you all immediately show up and there's counseling or you're all brought into a giant conference room and it's kind of hashed out. We need to talk about what happened yesterday. And it sounds like that was not what happened you just well not not not immediately not immediately not you know it's so hard like within that week we had counselors on there we had peer support groups and people to talk to and stuff like that so, but immediately it's almost impossible to just, I mean, hell,

it took a little while for backup to get there to help with the fight. So it's going to take a minute or two, you know, like, hold on guys, it's coming. So. I'm curious if in the days following January 6th, there were any tensions within the Capitol Police Force. I believe that something like six officers were suspended, and I don't want you to... Yeah, I'm not going to... I'm asking you about that, but just the fact of it and the suggestion that they might not have done their job correctly or that they might have interacted with the rioters in a way that wasn't appropriate. I mean, did that inform the way you all talked about this? Yeah, I'm not going to address that even a little bit. So yeah.

I think I understand. Yeah. Yeah, we're going to move on. Yeah, we'll move on from that. I understand. I understand. I know you can't comment on elements that are still under investigation, but did you know the officer who was killed in the line of duty during the riot? Brian. I knew Brian. Brian and I. Brian, this is Officer Brian Sicknick. Brian Sicknick, yeah. We worked on the same unit together, the first responders unit. He worked the evening shifts. I worked day shifts. So we saw each other in passing and enough to have a cordial friendship. He was such an amazing man, a police officer, and just somebody who brought the term is bring

your lunch pail to work every day and do your job and go home. And you could always count on him to do his job. And if you needed something, he wouldn't hesitate to be there for you. It's just a great person. The thing that I keep coming back to, even today, that it could have been me. It could have been any one of us. that it could have been me. It could have been any one of us. It could have been any other of those coworkers there because we were all fighting the same war.

We were all trying to do the exact same thing, and it could have been any one of us. You talked about the many support groups that were offered after January 6th to try to make sure that you all did have a chance to process what had happened and talk it through and often at least by reputation police officers military officers can feel a bit of a stigma around psychology. Talking through trauma. What was that present for you all for you?

You know, you know, I, I am a huge proponent of seeking mental like therapy, like absolutely. Like even before the six, like I have a counselor that I see regularly, somebody that I talk to. And I'm a huge proponent for that. So you welcome that right away. weak or soft. I had people tell me that they thanked me for saying that I was scared. They thanked me for just admitting that because that made it feel, whoa, I'm not the only one who was scared that day. So therapy, yes, do it, please, everybody.

Even people that ain't nothing wrong with go to therapy, just talk. I'm with you. Yeah. wrong with go to therapy like just talk i'm with you yeah as a proponent of therapy has a therapist given you any tools or exercises or have they said anything to you when you've been talking about january 6th and your feelings about it that's helped you cope yeah yeah I'm going to keep those private and to myself, but yeah, absolutely. It's been very, it's been helpful, but yeah. I'm sure you've given some thought to the fact that two of your colleagues ended up in so much pain after January 6th that they took their own lives, which would suggest that the psychological scars from that day are very, very deep.

How do you make sense of that? Or is it not something anyone can make sense of? You, I think it would be almost selfish to try to make sense of that. I can't say what somebody felt. I don't know. Just like somebody can't tell you what I felt. Right. Everybody fought their own personal hell that day.

fought their own personal hell that day. Well, Officer Dunn, I know this has been an exhausting couple of months, and I really appreciate you spending so much time talking about this with us. And I want to thank you for your service. Thank you so much, Michael. I appreciate you. Thank you for having me. And anytime you want to talk, just give me a shout. There's no therapy like a good interview.

Shoot, that might need therapy after this interview. I'll talk to you soon. All right, Mike. Take care, man. Bye. Bye. This week, a task force commissioned by Congress to review security at the Capitol on January 6th issued a series of recommendations. It proposed hiring more than 800 new Capitol police officers, including intelligence specialists, constructing mobile fencing around the Capitol complex, and changing procedures to allow the Capitol Police to more quickly summon backup, including from the National Guard. We'll be right back.

Here's what else you need to know today. On Tuesday night, the House of Representatives passed the most significant expansion of labor rights since the New Deal. The bill gives greater protections to workers seeking to form a union, repeals dozens of state laws designed to weaken unions, and increases the government's powers to punish companies that violate workers' rights. But the bill faces strong opposition in the Senate, where 60 votes are required to advance it, and Republicans are unanimously opposed. Today's episode was produced by Jessica Chung.

It was edited by Michael Benoit and Lisa Tobin and engineered by Dan Powell. That's it for The Daily. I'm Michael Bilbaro. See you tomorrow.