The Daily - Is China Really Freeing Uighurs?

Episode Date: August 15, 2019

Under international pressure, China has said it has released a vast majority of the Muslim Uighurs it had placed in detention camps. We follow up with an American citizen who says the Chinese government cannot be trusted, and find out how Beijing’s propaganda machine has responded to his efforts to protect a relative who was detained. If you missed the previous interview, listen to it here. Guest: Paul Mozur, a technology reporter for The New York Times based in Shanghai, spoke with Ferkat Jawdat, a Uighur and American citizen who lives in Virginia. For more information on today’s episode, visit nytimes.com/thedaily. Background reading: Reporters from The Times found, over seven days of traveling through the Xinjiang region, that the vast network of detention camps erected by the government of China’s authoritarian leader, Xi Jinping, continues to operate, and even expand.China’s most recent campaign echoes tactics used by other countries, principally Russia, to inundate domestic and international audiences with bursts of information, propaganda, and in some cases, outright disinformation.

From The New York Times, I'm Michael Barbaro. This is The Daily. Today. Under international pressure, China says it has released the vast majority of Muslim Uyghurs from detention camps. Why the family of one detainee says that China cannot be trusted. It's Thursday, August 15th. Hello?

Hey, Paul, it's Michael. Hey, Michael, how you doing? Good. How are you? Not too bad. Paul Moser is a Times correspondent based in Shanghai. So, Paul, the last time we talked, you introduced us to a man named Farkat Jadad. Can you remind us of his story? Yeah, so Farkat comes from Western China.

He's a Uyghur, which is a Muslim ethnic group out there. And Faircat actually moved with most of his family in the early 2000s to the United States to Virginia, but they weren't able to bring along his mother. She was not given a passport, and so she stayed behind out in a Western area of China called Xinjiang. And in recent years, the Chinese government has cracked down and tightened security in Xinjiang very intensely. American officials say Uyghurs face pervasive surveillance, checkpoints entering public places like markets and mosques, identity card checks, and facial scans. This is partially because there's been quite a bit of violence there

and the sort of ethnic clashes and tensions between the Uyghurs and Chinese in that area. And about 15 months ago, his mother disappeared into what the Chinese government calls a re-education camp. Evidence is growing that up to a million Muslim Uyghurs are being held by Chinese authorities in so-called re-education camps. In sign, detainees have said torture and political indoctrination is routine. Critics say the camps are part of Beijing's attempt to eliminate Islam in China. She basically was thrown into what is a large network of camps that have pulled in about a million people in the region. And so Faircat was very depressed and he was doing a lot to try to get his mother out. He had met with a number of

U.S. politicians. He had been quite outspoken giving media interviews, which is significant because a lot of people, even once they're in the United States, Uyghurs are afraid of Chinese reprisals against family in Xinjiang. So they often don't give interviews. So he was sort of doing everything he could to get his mother out. And as a part of that, he talks to us. And so, you know, we did an episode of The Daily about him. And so we sent some letters off to Chinese government to check up and see what the story was with his mother. We had heard every so often somebody might be released if you do that. At first, I think we sort of thought maybe nothing would happen. But then all of a sudden, a lot happened. So I got on the phone with Faircat recently to kind of talk about it.

Hello? And to have him explain to us what he's been through and what it's been like. How about right now? Aha, there we go. I got you. And Paul, what happened when you called him? What did he tell you? So he tells me this, you know, roller coaster of a tale about the past several months of his life. It was like one Friday, May 17th. I remember that day and I was in a meeting in the office and I got a phone call.

Basically, 10 days after the episode airs, he's at work in Virginia. He's in a meeting and he gets a call. The country code is 86, which is China. And then also there is like three region area code, which is my hometown of Wulja. And then he looks closer and he said, oh my God, it's actually an area code from my home in Xinjiang. So I got like really nervous. And then I just like left the meeting, and I picked up the call. And then the other side is my mom. Wow.

It's his mother. She's actually been released. Like, I got really excited and nervous at the same time. So I started crying, and then I was keep asking her, like, mom, is that you? Like, is that really you? Like, mom, like, are you still alive? It's this kind of tremendous moment where, you know, somebody who all intents and purposes he spoke of as almost having been dead in a way because he just had no understanding of what could have happened to her and she had health problems to all of a sudden having her, you know, right in his ear ear it's incredibly emotional she too is is overjoyed and he can hear the emotion in her voice she just said like a for cat like is it you like is it you like it's my son i said yes mom it's me like is that is it really you like mom how are you how

are you doing and then she said but pretty quickly he told me he realized there's something that's off something was a little bit off. I was well taken care of. But those things, like I heard like on the media by the Chinese government many, many times, but I wasn't expecting that's going to come from my mother's own mouth. And what it is, is that she was basically repeating in an almost dogmatic way, the propaganda lines of the Chinese Communist Party and the Chinese government.

So then she said like, my smart son, my stubborn son who doesn't stop Communist Party and the Chinese government. You know, he can hear this woman who sounds like his mother, but then he's thinking, my mother would never say something like this. So I kind of got that, like, feeling that, is that really my mom? Or someone that just mimicking my mom's voice? But once I added my sister on the line, because it's on my cell phone, like a direct, like, phone line. And then as soon as one of them like you start speaking

like just by the voice like the first couple words like my mom was able to pick up who she is so that moment i was like okay so that's that's really my mom like like she was able to recognize my sister's voice so i i thought okay so that's my mom like we hang up after like half an hour and uh i was going to all meetings talking to my managers like our ceo at the company i told them the great news that i finally got my mom released from the camp so they all hugged me it was one of the happiest moments in my life like one of those times like when my daughter was born, I was at the hospital. And then this time, it was like unexpected happiness. And a few days go by and he told me, you know, he's very, very happy and glad and trying to figure out kind of what the next step is.

But then he finds out that his mother has actually been sent back to a camp. to a camp. So I felt like somebody brought me really high to the sky and then just pushed me. And he doesn't find it out from her. He finds it out from his grandmother, who his mother had actually gone to stay with. So he finds out that she was just released very briefly

to talk to him and tell him and act as if she had been released. I kind of just became a mad dog at the time. I felt like I was played by the Chinese government with the help of my mom. This was all just an elaborate ploy to sort of try to basically affect the coverage, our coverage and other media coverage and show that they are releasing people.

And so ultimately she's a pawn in a game of misinformation that they're playing from 6,000 miles away. So I thought, OK, so if you are playing your game, if you step up your game on the next level, OK, so it's time for me to, like, be more active or be more louder. be more active, be more louder. So that phone call between Faircat and his mother appeared to have been this brief moment when the Chinese government is aware

that there's a lot of international attention on this case. And so they may have let her out. But it was very brief, essentially just to make that call. A call that sounded like it was guided by the Chinese government. Exactly. And later he finds out that there were actually six police officers in the room with her as she's talking to him. So the idea that she could say anything at all, reflective of what she actually felt felt is just non-existent. So then, you know, a few weeks go by.

And again, all of a sudden, his mother starts contacting him over a messaging app popular in China called WeChat. The police brought her a cell phone, told her to speak to us like regularly. So it kind of became like a normal that I was talking to her almost every day because I don't want to lose her again. And it turns out she has been released, but she's under a sort of house arrest. There's two cameras right outside of my grandmother's house on the front.

And they are monitoring like who's going in, going out from the house. Also, they gave her a cell phone themselves so they know like my mom's exact location, and then they know who she's speaking to. So basically, she was released from the camp to the open-air prison that everyone that she talks to on the phone is monitored and tracked by the Chinese government. And then every location she goes to, every place that she goes to, she had to tell some local officials first that she was going to some place, how long she was going to stay. And perhaps just as important, her medical situation seems to have gotten a lot worse.

So she had heart problems, high blood pressure, which, you know, had all kinds of different complications that affected her health. And so he at some point gets on a video call with her. She was laying down on the bed. She looked like really sick. She wasn't even able to hold a cell phone herself. So my aunt was holding a cell phone on my mother's face. And then my mom was talking like really softly, like really Like, it felt like she was on her best bet. And then she was crying. And I, I was also crying too.

Like, so she said that like, son, I've been like fighting to get united with you guys in the US, but it's been more than 13 years right now. I don't know if I can hold another 13 days or 13 weeks. But if I'm gone, like, take care of your sisters, father, brother, and your family. Like, you are the oldest, and then you have to become, like, father for them, like, for everyone.

And so he's trying to understand, you know, is she getting medical attention? How much medical attention? How much medical attention? And what he finds out is they're taking her, you know, maybe once a month or something to a doctor, but she's only being prescribed sleep pills, nothing for her blood pressure or for her heart. But eventually she goes to a better doctor and he says she needs a surgery, a heart bypass surgery. And this is not only expensive, but also something that she's quite worried about. And she wants her family near her for when she goes through this. She's scared and she's worried that there might be something that happens to her and there is no one to stand by her side.

And there's nobody to stand by her side because the authorities basically have her under house arrest and do not allow her to see anybody. Is that correct? That's one thing. And then another one thing is because of my activism and then my mother's situation, even my aunt, my mother's younger sister, she's kind of keeping distance from my mom. And then my uncle,

they are all kind of keeping some distance from my mom because they believe that if they're too close to her it could impact them because of the way you've been speaking out is that right yes so paul what happens next yeah so at some point he gets a message on wechat and it's from somebody he doesn't know and so he ignores it WeChat, and it's from somebody he doesn't know. And so he ignores it. The second day, he said hello for cat, like in Mandarin Chinese. And then he gets the message again from the same person.

And then he said that he's from Urumqi, our capital city. He's a really powerful guy. And then he's the main actor who helped my family to get my mom free. And then also he helped my mom to have a cell phone. And then also that she was able to go to the doctor and get treatment and medicines. Because of him? Because of him? Because of him. And does he say who he works for or what his position is in any formal capacity?

So I asked him, like, okay, so since you know like lots of things about me, like who are you, like what do you work for, like give me some information. And on the beginning, he said that

he wants to become my close friend, like really close personal friend that we can help each other out. And then he wanted to get my trust. And then he wanted me to believe him that he's really like a good person. The guy keeps sort of rattling off information about Faircat and his family. He knows some of the meetings that Faircat went to in Washington. He knows that he's met certain politicians.

He knows that he was just at a conference. It's kind of an eerie level of surveillance and an eerie level of information that this guy has. And Faircat knows nothing about this guy. And then I ask him, like, OK, so since you want me to believe you, like, at least give me some information about, like, where do you work? Or, like, who are you? Because what's your level? And the guy would say, just trust me. I'm very powerful, and I can help you if I want to.

Faircat knows that this guy is not his friend, but he doesn't know what he wants. He doesn't know what his endgame is, and he's trying to kind of suss it out. He doesn't know what his endgame is, and he's trying to kind of suss it out. As they talk, the ask becomes, well, Farrakhan, if you be quiet, if you stop talking, then I think I can help your mother. He asked me to stay out of Twitter, Facebook, social media. And then he told me that if I do as he said, like stay quiet, like he's going to try to find a way to get my mom a passport. But that all depends on you. Like, how do you cooperate with us? How do you help me out?

Because I'm trying to, like, help your family. And the offer is basically your mother in exchange for your silence. Yes. And so it's as if the Chinese state has kidnapped his mother and the ransom that they're asking for is Faircat's silence. And Faircat told me that this really tore him up. I mean, he was incredibly emotional about it because the core value that he believes in is speaking out, is saying what he thinks. And this is something his mother taught him to do. And now to save his mother, he's being asked to violate the very lesson that his mother taught him. After like, I was able to talk to my mom, then after that she was released and then seeing her

health conditions getting worse day by day. and then the way that she was scared. It's really hard to lose her a second time. So that's the thing that kept me really quiet. So Farrakhan actually does follow what the security officer says at first. He starts quieting down on social media. He doesn't say as much. On the other hand, I know that they are trying to play a time game with me. Like he's saying that like he can't get my mom a passport, but he didn't give me any specific time frame.

He kind of continues to run into this problem where he isn't getting enough of a response. The promises are vague and they don't seem to come true quickly enough. So finally, I broke out the day that when I was talking to my mom, like as I told you earlier, that she was almost like felt like she was on her deathbed. Yeah. So after I hung up that phone and then I just like I got really scared. And so at some point he gets frustrated and he basically gives an ultimatum to the security officer. I told him, like, hey, look, as you said that you are a really powerful person and you can do everything you want. How about if you just get my mom a passport within two weeks? Because I don't know if she still has another two weeks or two months.

She had to get her Chinese passport so she can come to the U.S. to get white treatment or get me a visa in two weeks. If not, I'll just start speaking again. And then if I speak again this time, I'll be more active than before. And at this point, the attitude of the security person turns. He replied back to me the second day saying that that's China, that's the superpower He sort of tells Faircat that Faircat is just insignificant compared to the power of the Chinese state. And how dare Faircat believe that he can get anything out of them? How dare he talk to the state that way? And then kind of after that point, the line goes silent. island. That's the game they play, like they just play the time. The more time they have, the more powerful they get, and the more chance they will win. We'll be right back.

I'm noticing that Faircat uses the word game a lot in describing how this played out to you. What do you make of that? Well, I think there's a lot that is game-like in this because you have this police officer who gets in touch with him and has all the power, but he wants to let on as if he doesn't have all the power, that Faircat has some power. And that if Faircat is willing to give up a little bit of his power, then there's a trade that could happen, right? And meanwhile, Faircat kind of knows this guy's full of it, but isn't quite sure. And there's this kind of back and forth trying to understand, could he actually do this? Is this real? And in the end, of course,

there wasn't a lot of intention there. And behind that dressed up, nice, pleasing official attempting to placate Faircat is this truly stern person who just lectures him about, you know, his people being crushed and the Uyghurs being crushed

and him having just zero influence in the shadow of a sort of superpower like China. So at this point, all Faircat wants is his mother to be released. And all the Chinese government seems to want is for him to be quiet. And in the middle is his mother. And it feels like both sides view her release differently, but they're willing to use it as leverage in the situation. Right. What's interesting is that you would think in a conventional sense, both sides have something the other side wants. Why can't they make a trade? Why can't this actually work out?

But I think his mother, unfortunately, to the Chinese government is extremely expendable. Generally speaking, the way we see the Chinese government manage these situations is oftentimes everything is about cosmetics. It's about public relations. So, you know, they don't actually probably have any real strong intentions of truly releasing his mother. They just want to see what they can get out of him in the meantime. So, Paul, what happens next? So there's this moment where the story of Ferkat and his mother actually kind of dovetails with the story of Xinjiang itself and the Chinese approach to Xinjiang. Because out of nowhere, a few weeks ago, China's government in Beijing holds a press conference and announces that 90% of Uyghurs have been released from the camps. And it's a little vaguely worded, so it could be that 90% have gotten jobs, 90% who have been released have gotten jobs, but, you know, it's kind of unclear.

It should be really momentous news, but you just know it's not because it's too unbelievable. But at the same time, we have to kind of report what the government is saying while we're fact-checking it. What we ultimately figure out is that, of course,

it's not true. They did not release 90% of Uyghurs, nor did the 90% of Uyghurs who've been released have jobs. But it is a kind of propaganda trick, and it is a part of the way the Chinese government is trying to handle the foreign reception to this. Because around the world in places like Europe and the United States have been very ferocious in their criticism of China's practices there. So this is a way of them trying to manage the situation. Paul, how did this announcement from the Chinese government affect Faircat and his mother? Well, you know, in some ways, the story of the announcement is the story of Faircat

and his mother, because the security official comes to Faircat and promises something unbelievable. And it turns out that it's not possible. And similarly, we see the Chinese government coming out and promising something that seems unbelievable, and sure enough, it is. And so the question becomes, why do this? Why even bother, right? Why play this game? And I think at a fundamental level, what it shows is Beijing believes very deeply in propaganda because domestically, propaganda has worked incredibly well. Most Chinese don't really understand what's going on there, but they support the government.

And so I think for China, this belief that, you know, if they can kind of convince the Chinese people that this is OK, well, then why won't that work in the wider world? And is there evidence that this propaganda is working? There is. So a couple of weeks ago, we had a number of major Muslim countries come out and say that they were okay with what was going on in Xinjiang and with the Chinese government's behavior there. And a part of their willingness to support this comes from a deep economic tie to China and a desire to kind of keep on the good side of such a powerful country. But a part of it is the propaganda. And even if the leaders know that there's real problems there, at the same time, it gives them an excuse.

It gives them a plausible deniability to say, well, we looked into it and the Chinese government says they're working on it. They're releasing people. And so we think it's OK. to it and the Chinese government says they're working on it, they're releasing people. And so we think it's okay. Paul, since this announcement from the Chinese government, which I know our reporting has essentially debunked, what is the state of these camps and the Uyghurs inside them? So from what our reporting shows, most are still in the camps. The camps are still very much a fixture of the way in which the Chinese government controls Xinjiang, and they seem like they're there to stay. They're built to last. They are large.

They've built some different factories and different labor parks near camps, and they're kind of forcing people to work there while they're going to these camps. In no sense does it seem like this is the end of this program. It seems, in fact, like it's just the beginning, and they remain a key part of China's policy in the region. And even once you're out of the camps, the camps remain very much this threat, this sword hanging over everybody, and it can be used at any time. And that's power. They have this psychological toll. They loom over the people of Xinjiang. So in that sense, this game that China is playing with Faircat and with his mother is still not over. No, it's not.

And in fact, I think it's only gotten more intense because there is a clock ticking here and his mother is in seriously bad health and she could die very soon. And so he is taking bigger and bigger risks and considering more and more dramatic gestures to try and change the outcome of the game. But I think deep down he knows that most likely it's not a game he can win. can win. Paul, thank you very much.

Thanks. We'll be right back. U.S. stock prices plunged on Wednesday after a reliable predictor of recessions, known as an inverted yield curve, briefly appeared in the bond market, spooking investors. It's where short-term bonds yield more than long-term bonds. Why is that bad and weird? Well, it's usually the other way around, because investors, they want higher interest rates to lend for a longer period of time. It makes sense. Investors seized on the fact that for the first time in more than a decade,

the government is paying out higher rates to attract buyers of short-term bonds than for long-term bonds. I'm sorry to say it's a pretty tried and true recession warning. Take a look here. Such a pattern, which reveals weaker confidence in the short-term health of the economy, has foreshadowed every recession for the past 50 years. And in the latest revelations from the jail where Jeffrey Epstein died, the Times reports that the two staff members who were supposed to monitor him fell asleep, left him unchecked for three hours,

and later falsified records to cover up their mistake. In their falsified records, the guards made it seem they had checked on Epstein every 30 minutes as required. Such fabricated entries in an official government log could constitute a federal crime. That's it for The Daily. I'm Michael Barbaro. See you tomorrow.