The Daily - Israel and Hamas’s Fragile Cease-Fire

Episode Date: November 28, 2023

Hostages are at the heart of the fragile cease-fire between Israel and Hamas, now in its fifth day. As of Monday night, 50 Israeli hostages had been released, as had 150 Palestinian prisoners. More releases were expected on Tuesday, under what Qatari mediators said was a deal to extend the cease-fire by two days.Isabel Kershner, a Jerusalem-based reporter for The New York Times, explains how a grass-roots movement managed to pause the war, and what it will mean for the rest of the conflict.Guest: Isabel Kershner, who covers Israeli and Palestinian politics and society for The New York Times.Background reading: The extension of the cease-fire, and another exchange of hostages and prisoners, raised hopes that more people would be set free and more humanitarian aid would reach people in the Gaza Strip.Here are the latest updates from Israel and Gaza.For more information on today’s episode, visit nytimes.com/thedaily. Transcripts of each episode will be made available by the next workday.

From The New York Times, I'm Sabrina Tavernisi, and this is The Daily. The fragile ceasefire between Israel and Hamas, now in its fifth day, has been historic in scope and success. At its heart are hostages. As of Monday night, 50 Israeli hostages have been released under its terms, as have 150 Palestinian prisoners, with more releases expected on Tuesday. Today, my colleague Isabel Kirshner on the grassroots movement that managed to pause the war and what it will mean for the rest of the conflict. It's Tuesday, November 28th. November 28th.

So Isabel, it's Monday around 9 p.m. for you. You've had a busy few days in Israel, and that is precisely why we want to talk to you today. So for the first time since October 7th, we have had, for the most part, a halt in hostilities. No airstrikes in Gaza, no rockets into Israel. And there's been this remarkable release of Israeli hostages and, of course, of Palestinian prisoners. So tell us what's been happening. Well, since October the 7th, this country has been at war. And then suddenly, on Friday morning at 7am, the guns went silent. And this was a result of a deal that had been reached between Israel and Hamas with mediation from outside. And the outlines of that deal was that Israel would cease fire for four days.

During that time, Israel would allow an increased amount of aid and fuel to go into the Gaza Strip. And at the same time, Hamas had committed to release 50 of the Israeli hostages being held in Gaza in exchange for an Israeli release of Palestinian prisoners and detainees from Israeli jails. And traditionally, when you look back to former conflicts between Israel and the armed groups in Gaza, there have been ceasefires before, and they would break down often within hours. This time, remarkably, the ceasefire has held, and that's because at the heart of it is this issue of the release of hostages. So what is it about the hostages that makes this so historic? Bring me into that deal. about the hostages that makes this so historic. Bring me into that deal.

Well, first of all, for Israel, this was an unprecedented event to have 240 people taken captive into Gaza. At first, the initial impulse was to fight back, to retaliate. And the Israeli government and military immediately set the war goal as being eradicating Hamas rule and destroying its military capabilities. That was the focus from October the 7th. And to a large extent, it felt like the hostage issue in all the shock and the fog of war was almost taking a secondary role like a backseat. But the families of the hostages, they, of course, had their own number one priority, which was to bring their loved ones back home. And we saw the beginnings within a week of a grassroots domestic movement led by the families of hostages and one father in particular, who stands out, Avichai Brodach, as someone who really kicked this off. So Isabel, tell me about Mr. Brodach and this grassroots

movement that he helped start. So Avichai Brodach, he's a farmer and a student of nursing from a kibbutz, a communal village near the Gaza border called Kfar Aza. On the morning of October the 7th, he saw that the neighbor's child, a three-year-old, Abigail Idan, was running around on the lawn, covered in blood after her father had been shot dead. He ran out and brought her into their home and handed her to his wife. And he then went out to get a weapon and start to defend the kibbutz. When he came back home, he found that his family, along with the neighbor's child, Avigael, had all gone. And he didn't know what had happened. had all gone. And he didn't know what had happened.

It transpired after a couple of days that they were indeed confirmed as having been kidnapped to Gaza. Wow, so his whole family had been kidnapped, including the little girl that he saved. That's right. His wife, Hagar, and their three children, Afri, Yuval, and Uriah, who are aged 10, 8, and 4, and the neighbor's little daughter, Avigal-Idan.

Okay, so what does he do? So he was feeling that the hostages were not first and foremost in the government's mind, that the country was very focused on the fighting in Gaza and revenge, and he was frustrated. And a week after his family was taken, he just went himself overnight, took a plastic chair, sat himself down with the family dog outside the military and government headquarters in Tel Aviv with a cardboard sign that he'd written, which had a very simple message on it. My family is in Gaza.

And by the morning, hundreds of supporters who heard about him began to join him. Bring them home! Bring them home! Bring them home! And I think that was really the beginning of the grassroots campaign that we saw grow into a huge force in the country. Posters of the kidnapped people began appearing all over the country. There's a square in Tel Aviv in front of the Tel Aviv Museum of Art and the Opera. And that became the hub of activity of the hostages' families. So you began to see installations there like the long table set for a Sabbath meal with 240 empty chairs. And then we saw the families forming delegations to travel abroad and meet with world leaders.

Where is the world? Why is no one crying out for these people to be allowed access to the Red Cross? Why is no one demanding just proof of life? My family, my babies, my wife, they need to get out now. You need to use all your power in order to do so. And speak in front of the European Parliament and go to Geneva and meet with the International Committee of the Red Cross. Another relative of a family that had been taken to Gaza, Yuval Haran, he spearheaded what became a long march which set out from Tel Aviv to Jerusalem.

Bring them home now! Bring them home now! Ekkula, march up! Ekkula, march up! Government, do your job! Government, do your job! And by the time they marched into Jerusalem and to the prime minister's offices, there were thousands of people filling the streets. So really kind of a little movement that grows into this moral drumbeat for the country and one that was really impossible to ignore. a shift. We saw the hostage issue moving from being what at first felt like a secondary issue to the front stage where the government and the military were then describing it as a dual goal,

that this campaign was equally about getting Hamas out of power and bringing the hostages home. Okay, so that's the domestic pressure on Netanyahu to do something about the hostages. But of course, that's just one side of the equation here, right? The other side is, of course, the ceasefire. So what was the talk domestically about engaging in a ceasefire? What were Israelis saying? Well, there hadn't been much talk, actually, about a ceasefire. The majority of Israelis were very unified about the need for this war to be fought, that this Hamas assault could not go

unanswered. And there was only small, small pockets of people calling for a ceasefire. A ceasefire does come with risks for the military and the government, because any pause in the fighting, you're giving time to Hamas to regroup, kind of a breather for the other side. So there was some debate about whether the ceasefire was a good idea or not. But I think by then, the public pressure to do anything possible to bring at least some of the hostages back alive was the main goal. There was, of course, another big force at play, which was the United States. We know from our colleagues in Washington that there was significant pressure being put on Israel by the Biden administration on the question of civilian deaths and the humanitarian crisis unfolding in Gaza. Secretary of State Antony Blinken in early November said, quote,

in Gaza. Secretary of State Antony Blinken in early November said, quote, there is more that can and should be done to minimize harm to Palestinian civilians. So I guess I'm wondering, what role did the U.S. play here exactly in terms of negotiating an actual ceasefire between Israel and Hamas? I think it played a critical role. The Biden administration had every interest in some kind of pause. Washington wanted increased aid and fuel to go into Gaza to try and mitigate and ease the humanitarian crisis there. And yes, was becoming increasingly uncomfortable about the spiraling death toll of Palestinians in Gaza, particularly the huge civilian death toll there of women and children. And at the same time, the administration also had another interest in getting hostages out because there are nearly a dozen hostages who are

dual U.S.-Israeli citizens. And so there were various interests at play here. And one Israeli former Mossad official who had been responsible in the past for negotiating the return of Israeli MIAs and hostages, and is now, in his words, working behind the scenes, he told me that once he saw the involvement of the Americans in reaching this deal, that's when he knew it was serious. Interesting. I mean, there is not to be too political and cynical in terms of the Americans, but of course, the question of domestic politics in the U.S. for Biden.

You know, parts of the Democratic Party are calling for a ceasefire. Some members of Congress, too, were headed into an election season. You know, these are important indicators that I have to imagine the Israelis have been keenly aware of, you know, that the U.S. may not have endless patience for Israel's war. Of course. And Israel can only continue to act at the pace it was acting as long as it has some international legitimacy left for its campaign. And it was clear that that was beginning to wear thin. So what we saw was the Qataris and the Egyptians acting as mediators between Israel and Hamas and the Americans in the background as a very, very strong pressure force to have this deal move ahead. And all of this culminated at 7 a.m. on Friday morning when the ceasefire came into effect.

And then by the evening, you saw the whole country here gripped by these scenes being aired and broadcast on TV of the first group of these hostages being handed over to the Red Cross in Gaza and eventually making their way back into Israel. making their way back into Israel. We'll be right back. So, Isabel, we left off in this very dramatic moment. A ceasefire finally begins on Friday morning, and hostages and prisoners are about to be released. So what happens? Well, the terms of the deal, as they were announced, was that Israel would get 50 hostages back. The priority or the criteria would be that women and children would be

released from captivity. And there was also a principle that children who'd been kidnapped with mothers would come out together with their mothers. And on the side of Hamas, the demand was for three prisoners or detainees to be released from Israeli custody in return for each hostage. So that would be 150 prisoners and detainees. And again, the criteria would be women and minors, teenagers who had been in Israeli detention. And Isabel, were these people who had actually committed crimes on the Palestinian side? Well, they were all accused of, some had been convicted of, you know, many were

teenagers who were detained for throwing stones or people who'd been detained or tried for association with armed groups. Many had not been charged or tried or convicted, but they all were accused of something. And why are there three times as many Palestinians being released? Like, how did that math work? being released? Like, how did that math work? We've seen in the past very lopsided prisoner exchanges between Israel and Hamas and other Palestinian groups. So, for example, when Hamas captured an Israeli soldier in 2006, Gilad Shalit, and took him into Gaza and kept him captive there for five years. In the end, Israel got him back in exchange for more than a thousand Palestinian prisoners,

half of whom had been convicted of deadly terror acts. So in a way, Israel is used to paying more than one for one. And this is what the sides settled for. So tell us about the releases themselves. How does a hostage physically get out of Gaza? What we've been seeing since Friday is this nightly drama where a list is drawn up and agreed upon by Israel and Hamas, and agreed upon by Israel and Hamas. And the list is kept under wraps until it's confirmed that these people actually are being freed.

Bye now. Goodbye. And what happens is the Hamas armed men hand them over in southern Gaza. Wake up. Wake up. You've got these armed fighters, masked, wearing fatigues, handing over these women and children to Red Cross representatives.

The Israeli army released video showing the moment a bus carrying hostages released by Hamas crossed back into Israeli territory. They're put into Red Cross ambulances or vans and driven across the border into Israel from Egypt. into Israel, from Egypt, where they received initial checkups to see if anybody needed emergency care. There were a couple of cases of hostages who were helicoptered actually straight to the closest hospital,

to the Gaza Strip. One had a leg injury and needed surgery. And the other was an older woman, Elma Avraham, of 84 years old, who actually was in critical condition because she had not been given her heart medication that she needs to survive. Are there any other stories, Isabel, that stand out to you in terms of the hostages who were released? Well, absolutely.

There's the girl, Hila, and she's 11 or 12 years old, but she appeared without her mother. And this was against the guidelines that had been agreed upon that mothers and children should not be separated. There's been speculation why her mother, Raya, did not come out of Gaza with her. It was said at one point that Hamas didn't know where she was Hamas doesn't have all the hostages in its hands other armed groups have some of them that they couldn't locate her but since she's been back in Israel her relatives who've met with her have said that actually she was being held with her mother. And so, you know, we've not had any official explanation. And we saw Avichai Brodach's family come back. And the pictures just emerged today of his reunion with his wife and his children. And his wife and children came back with Avigael Idan, the neighbor's daughter.

The little girl. The little girl who'd been alone, who'd lost both her parents on October the 7th, and had turned four in captivity on Friday. So she has captured the hearts of many people here. And she's been reunited here with her grandmother. And she has two older siblings who survived October the 7th. And what have the reunions been like? Well, very emotional from what we've seen.

You know, it's not just pure joy because many of these hostages who've been coming back to Israel have either left people behind in Gaza. So there are mothers with children who have left behind their husbands and the children's father in Gaza. There are elderly women who've left their husbands behind in Gaza. There are elderly women who've left their husbands behind in Gaza and many who've come out to find that some of their family members were killed on October the 7th. And they didn't know that and only learned that as they got back here. And what about the Palestinian prisoners being released? How did those releases play out? So my colleague, Christina Goldbaum, who's been covering the

release of the Palestinian prisoners and detainees, has been describing very vividly the scenes every night in Ramallah, where crowds have gathered outside the detention center where the prisoners and detainees are released from. And great joy on that side. But again, mixed with a kind of sadness and concern because of the high death toll in Gaza. Many of the detainees who've been coming out are young teens. For example, Christina's written about Tariq Dawood, who's 17.

Christina's written about Tariq Dawood, who's 17. So he was accused of throwing stones at Israeli soldiers who were on a military raid in his neighborhood, as well as possession of weapons or explosive devices. But he wasn't tried yet, and he'd been detained for a year. So his father described to my colleagues how he was glued to his television screen for days waiting to see if his son Tariq would appear on one of the lists. And finally, his name did come up on Saturday afternoon. So his father drove to meet him in Ramallah and took him back to Kalkilia. And by the time they got there, it was dawn and dozens of relatives and friends were there to greet him. And they ended up driving around the neighborhood

in a 15-car motorcade. car motorcade. Do we have a sense of how much longer this ceasefire is going to last? Like, what's going to happen? Well, the original deal was for four days, which would end today. But Israel from the beginning had proposed that if Hamas could come up with another 10 hostages per day, Israel would be willing to extend the ceasefire or the pause by another day. And that would be up to a total of 100 hostages. So that would be another five days of 10 hostages per day. And at first, we didn't hear anything. They didn't publicly respond to that proposition. But suddenly last night, the Hamas leadership announced that they were interested in seeking an extension. And very quickly by today, the sides have agreed to extend for another two days at least

and see another 20 hostages come back. And that would mean another 60 Palestinian prisoners and detainees released. And I think what we're going to see is Hamas trying to pull this string as long as it can and, you know, try and keep the ceasefire going as long as it can. Now we're already hearing the beginnings of reports that Hamas is now willing to begin to negotiate the release of captive soldiers. But it's difficult to see how, as long as Hamas is dangling this proposition of more hostages coming out, it's difficult to see Netanyahu say, no, that's enough, we're going back to the war. So we'll have to see how it plays out. I think from the perspective of many Israelis, there's an urgency to getting as many hostages out and that the war can wait.

Isabel, stepping back here, it seems like we're at this point that in some ways Israel's government and military was worried about. You know, the point where the ceasefire starts to feel kind of inevitable and longer lasting. So what does this mean for Israel and its mission of eliminating Hamas? Well, we saw Netanyahu yesterday actually visiting the troops in Gaza for the first time, taking advantage of the pause. And he pledged to the citizens of Israel and to the soldiers that we will be going back to the war. Israel would continue until victory. And that meant eliminating Hamas rule in Gaza. meant eliminating Hamas rule in Gaza. Now, what that means, people are still not sure or clear about. How do you wipe out Hamas? Are you going to get rid of every single last Hamas fighter with

a Kalachnikov? It's a goal that many people see as a little ambiguous and fuzzy anyway. Nobody's sure how this is going to end and what comes next. But for the time being, the government and the military are saying that they are absolutely determined at the end of this ceasefire to pick up where they left off. Isabel, thank you. Thank you, Sabrina. Late on Monday, Israel's army radio, citing the prime minister's office, reported that the government had received a list of hostages held by Hamas who are expected to be released on Tuesday. We'll be right back. Here's what else you should know today. On Monday, a 48-year-old man was charged with three counts of attempted murder in the weekend shooting in Burlington, Vermont, of three young men of Palestinian descent.

College students and friends since childhood had been staying at the home of an uncle and had gone out for a walk on Saturday night when the suspect approached them, pulled out a handgun, and started shooting, striking them in the spine, the chest, and the back. Local officials called the shooting one of the most shocking events in Burlington's history. Relatives of the men, two of whom were wearing Palestinian keffiyehs, a traditional headdress at the time of the shooting, said they feared that the men had been targeted for being Arab-American. Today's episode was produced by Mary Wilson, Luke Van Vander Ploeg, and Ricky Nowitzki. It was edited by Lisa Chow and Lexi Diao. Contains original music by Diane Wong, Dan Powell, and Marian Lozano. And was engineered by Alyssa Moxley.

Our theme music is by Jim Brunberg and Ben Landsberg of Wonderland. That's it for The Daily. I'm Sabrina Tavernisi. See you tomorrow.