The Daily - Jimmy Lai vs. China

Episode Date: September 3, 2020

This episode contains strong language.Jimmy Lai was born in mainland China but made his fortune in Hong Kong, starting as a sweatshop worker and becoming a clothing tycoon. After the Tiananmen massacre in 1989, he turned his attention to the media, launching publications critical of China’s Communist Party.“I believe in the media,” he told Austin Ramzy, a Hong Kong reporter for The New York Times. “By delivering information, you’re actually delivering freedom.”In August, he was arrested under Hong Kong’s new Beijing-sponsored national security law.Today, we talk to Mr. Lai about his life, his arrest and campaigning for democracy in the face of China’s growing power.Guests: Austin Ramzy and Tiffany May, who cover Hong Kong for The Times, spoke with Jimmy Lai, a pro-democracy media tycoon and founder of Apple Daily.For more information on today’s episode, visit nytimes.com/thedaily Background reading: In August, Mr. Lai, his two sons and four executives from Apple Daily were arrested under the new national security law. The publication was a target and a test case for the government’s authority over the media.

From The New York Times, I'm Michael Barbaro. This is The Daily. In the weeks since China imposed a strict new security law on Hong Kong, dozens of people have been arrested there. Today, my colleague Austin Ramsey speaks to the most high-profile figure arrested so far about his quest for freedom and the future of Hong Kong. It's Thursday, September 3rd.

Austin, who exactly is Jimmy Lai? Jimmy Lai is a wealthy media tycoon in Hong Kong. Jimmy Lai has lived the Hong Kong dream. He went from rags to riches. He went from working in a Hong Kong sweatshop to founding a business empire that is now worth around $1 billion. He made his first fortune in clothing. He's now in media. Lai is the owner of Apple Daily, one of the most widely read newspapers in Hong Kong. He's a man about town. He's politically active.

Mr. Lai is Hong Kong's most prominent pro-democracy campaigner. He's an outspoken critic of Beijing's policies in the territory. Outspoken, unafraid, he has said, to cause trouble, to speak his mind, and to support his publication. And the story of how he became who he is, is very much a story of Hong Kong. He reflects, in many ways, the promise of Hong Kong. And now what's happening to him today reflects some of the disappointments. Police in Hong Kong have arrested media mogul and democracy proponent Jimmy Lai,

along with six other people, under that controversial new national security law. After the national security law was passed, Jimmy Lai was arrested. And after he was held for about a day, he was released and out on bail. And he agreed to talk to us. So one morning, my colleague Tiffany May and I went and visited him at his house. He's asking for a press card. It's in a neighborhood of old colonial houses on the Kowloon Peninsula.

And by American standards, it's a large suburban house. But by Hong Kong standards, where people have a couple hundred square feet to themselves at most, it's enormous. And there's a gate. We can go in now. And a new Mercedes outside. There are five cars parked here. And we walk into his house. We're being led into a living room with a grand piano, many oil paintings.

There's lots of art on the walls, stacks of books, fresh flowers. And we wait to meet him for breakfast. He was saying that during the interview we could wear the mask. Hopefully not while we're eating. And so Jimmy Lai comes in after his morning workout. Have some coffee and breakfast. That's it. I just finished my exercise. He's wearing sort of a multimillionaire casual

with some gray sweatpants and a seersucker jacket and a white dress shirt. And so we sit down at a table, sort of an enclosed veranda next to his backyard. Cheers. Cheers. Cheers. And we start talking.

Well, maybe if we could start, you know. Whatever. Great. You just ask. Ask away. If I can't answer, I'll tell you why I can't answer. Okay. Great. Great.

And where does Jimmy Lai's story start? Where do you begin this conversation? So Jimmy Lai was born in Canton, what's now known as Guangzhou in mainland China. He's born in 1948, just before the communist takeover of China in 1949. And this is a very wrenching and difficult period for a lot of people, including Jimmy Lai's family. period for a lot of people, including Jimmy Lai's family. There's campaigns to take land and property from the wealthy. What did your family do in mainland China?

My family was a shipping business. My family was quite rich. That's why we became the enemy of the people. So the whole family was marginalized. And by the time he's a young boy, there's a mass collectivization campaign called the Great Leap Forward, and it results in widespread starvation. So that was a very difficult time in mainland China.

Because famine. You have some food, but sometimes you're hungry, you have to eat vegetable, rice or whatever. And contributes to a famine in which tens of millions of people are believed to have died. And so while he lives in Canton, which is a comparatively relatively well-off place in China, it's still quite difficult for him and his family. Well, I work as a boy luggage carrier in a railway station in Canton. He told us that he was working at a railway station as a porter, and that's where he sort of first got the inspiration to go to Hong Kong.

So I had access to people who came from Hong Kong. Those guys I carried the baggage for. But one day I carried a baggage for a guy who was biting a bar of chocolate. And he gave me a tip and he gave the bar of chocolate to me also. That he, you know, he ate almost half of it. And I was shy, you know, I turned around and I said, wow, what's this? He said, chocolate. I said, where are you from?

Hong Kong. I said, Hong Kong must be heaven. And so he tried it, and he was amazed. And at that moment, he said, I have to get to this place. So for this poor young man, wherever that chocolate came from, he wanted to be. That's right. And it becomes clear in talking to him that food is a very big consideration. I mean, this is a period of starvation in China.

Then I told my mother I had to go. My mother said, you know, you go to Hong Kong, it's like going to the moon. I will never see you again. It's very dangerous. And his parents are reluctant to allow him to go. He's quite young, he's 12. But he tells us that his mother also realized that there was a real risk of him starving. My mom eventually allowed me to go just because, you know, you stay here and maybe you die from famine.

And I left and snuck under the fishing boats from Macau to Hong Kong. And from Macau, he makes his way onto a fishing boat and he's smuggled by a fishing boat into Hong Kong. And the same night I arrived, I was taken to a factory as a boy worker. The factory manager told those other kids to take me in the morning to breakfast. And the first time I saw so much food, it's the first time I realized food is actually freedom when you have the choice of food. I was so emotional about food that when the food was served and I ate the first bite, I stood up to eat it.

I don't know why, you know, it's just like paying respect to food. And I was poor, but I never felt I was poor because I was so hopeful that, you know, one day I will be rich. That's the beginning. And so what does he do with this newfound sense of freedom in this land where there's finally enough food? What happens next? Well, he proves to be a very capable worker in this clothing factory.

He works his way up the factory. I was not even 21. I was made a general manager of a factory of 300 people. And what did the factory make? Sweaters. Then I start work, and with luck, I was able to perform and make profit that they haven't made in a couple of years. One year, he uses his bonus money to invest and buy his own factory.

And so within a few years, he's running his own factory. That's very impressive for a man in his early 20s. Yeah, yeah, it's quite impressive. In many ways, it's a very Hong Kong story. It's an opportunity that he just would not have been afforded had he stayed in mainland China. So what happens to this factory that he buys? It does well. I was working as a manufacturer for t-shirts.

We're producing a lot for Polo, Ralph Lauren, and some other brand names. And he eventually creates his own clothing company. He tells us this kind of wild story of how he came up with the name for his new company. And one day I met somebody I knew in an importing company. The guy gave me a few cookies. He's on a sales trip to New York and he's unwittingly given a pot cookie. I was totally high. I didn't know that the cookie they put marijuana. I was totally high. I didn't know that the cookie, they put marijuana.

So I just felt so munchy. And I went into a pizza place. He quenches his munchies with a bunch of pizza and then later on finds a napkin in his pocket from this place, and it's called Giordano's. Giordano? Wow, this is very good. Italian name. You know, I was stupid enough to think that if I used the Italian name, people would think

that the goods are from Italy. He takes that name, thinking that it'll give this Hong Kong clothing company a sort of a European flair. And Giordano becomes a success. And it sort of becomes the gap of Hong Kong and beyond Hong Kong. They open up in China and other parts of Asia. And Jimmy Lai is on his way, becomes a multimillionaire. So within a very short span, this child of mainland China, who used to carry the bags

of rich men on their way to Hong Kong, is now himself a massive Hong Kong success story. So how does he get from retail into media? So it starts with Chinese politics. This is the 1980s. So it starts with Chinese politics. This is the 1980s. It was a period of opening up in China. And people in mainland China begin pushing for even more. And so there's a protest movement in 1989 in Beijing and other large Chinese cities where students and workers come together and demonstrate and try and demand greater say in their government. And this is something that's followed very closely in Hong Kong. By this point, it's clear that Hong Kong will return to Chinese control. And so people in Hong Kong are very invested in the idea of China becoming a democracy.

And Jimmy Lai, he has this belief that China will open up. But that doesn't happen. China sends in the troops. And on June 4th, 1989, Chinese soldiers kill hundreds, possibly thousands of demonstrators in Beijing. And that is the end of the protest movement. And how does Jimmy Lai react to the news of that massacre?

He still believes that China will become a democracy. At that time when the Tiananmen massacre happened, I thought that the way for China to go forward, liberalization, was irreversible. I was wrong. I was a dreamer. I'm still a dreamer. And he wants to do what he can to push it in that direction. For somebody who has made enough money, I was 40 years old, you know, I made enough money. I was 40 years old. I made enough money for my life. He said, okay, let's go into the media because I believe in the media by delivering information, you're actually delivering freedom. He sees the way of doing that is through the media.

And so as a child, when we saw food as freedom, now he sees information as freedom. And by being a publisher himself, he can deliver that. So his first publication is called Next Magazine. Can you tell us about the philosophy of your publications? You described the inspiration to start them as the aftermath of Tiananmen and the crackdown and hopes to reform China. And it's a very high-minded political idea. But Next Magazine and Apple Daily are famous for gossip. So it seems like there's a little bit of a contradiction there. What is the underlying? The underlying is pro-freedom.

What is the underlying? The underlying is pro-freedom. And at the same time, I'm a retailer. When I start the next magazine, magazine was like, okay, if you are financial magazine, you're financial magazine. If you're entertainment gossip, you're gossip. So I said, look, fuck it. Why should I ever do this?

We're gonna put it all together and just choose the best of each one. And it became overnight success. My purpose is to sell and to deliver the message to as many people as possible. And we have been very persistent in our pro-democracy and freedom principle. And people in Hong Kong talk about, you know, in those days, like waiting to get the next issue of Next Magazine. And five years later, he starts Apple Daily, which is a daily newspaper. And it's a very similar sort of mix of gossip and celebrity and also hard-hitting news and investigations and everything somebody might want to read, basically. So how do these

publications, Next, Apple Daily, how do they treat China? So they're very critical of the Chinese Communist Party. In fact, Jimmy Lai gets into a lot of trouble over this. He has a column, and in this column, he insults Li Peng, who's the Chinese premier and a person generally believed to have ordered the troops into Beijing. I don't know what year it was. It was maybe a couple of years after the Tiananmen Square. He was saying something ridiculous, you know. So I wrote a

letter, called him the son of turtle. He calls him a turtle's egg with zero IQ. I don't know that reference very well, but I'm imagining that's a local insult that hurts. It's basically questioning both his intelligence and his parentage. Huh. Then China sent to me and ordered me to sell the stick in Giordano within five days or whatever. Otherwise they would close the shop in Beijing. There's a very quick reaction from the Chinese authorities, and they begin closing Giordano shops in mainland China.

And he's forced to decide, does he want to run a media empire or a clothing empire? a media empire or a clothing empire. And he decides to stick with media. And he sells all of his interest in Giordano for a few hundred million dollars. And then he becomes strictly a media tycoon. But I have to imagine that the message of that insult and the response from the Chinese

government, which is to directly punish him and hurt his business, is very clear to Jimmy Lai, which is if you mess with the Chinese Communist Party, there will be repercussions. Yes, that's right. And as China gets more powerful, the risks to Jimmy Lai get bigger. We'll be right back. So Austin, how do these tensions start to play out once Jimmy Lai throws himself into this media empire? And like you just said, China's power keeps growing. Well, he becomes a very prominent and outspoken figure in the pro-democracy movement in Hong Kong. He participates in protests and his paper is a big backer of large protest movements in Hong Kong in 2014. And also last year, he goes to the U.S. and meets with the Secretary of State to advocate for Hong Kong to become more democratic. And how risky is this behavior? Because it does seem very provocative, very publicly provocative.

Is there a sense that when you're a billionaire, you can do these kinds of things with a certain level of protection? do these kinds of things with a certain level of protection. He's definitely taking risks, and he's arrested a few times for participation in illegal assemblies, for an incident with a photographer from a pro-Beijing newspaper. But the risks really escalate once the national security law comes into place. Right, and we've talked about this law with you on the show, Austin. It is written so broadly and so clearly in response to the protest movements of the past few years that it's pretty clear that the Chinese government and their allies in the Hong Kong government could pretty much find any reason to apply it to someone doing something they don't like. Yes, that's right.

And nobody really knows how far it could go. This national security law, I think, came as a big surprise. What was your reaction when you first heard about this? I couldn't believe it. I thought it was rough. But the more I heard about it, the more it's true. Then I knew that that spelled the death knell of Hong Kong. Because the British government did not give us democracy, but it gave us rule of law, private poverty, freedom of speech, freedom

of religion, freedom of assembly. All this institution was the protection of freedom. And that's why we Hong Kong people are so rebellious against CCP when the threat of our freedom was to be taken away. And for Jimmy Lai, the Chinese authorities and Chinese state media have really identified him as one of the main targets under this law. And sure enough, within a few weeks after the law is passed, he's arrested. You're one of the first people in Hong Kong to be arrested under the national security law.

There's a new department within the police specifically to handle this. So this is all very new. What was that like? It was like, I was preparing for it. And now the time has come. I just take it easy.

Because I don't know what's going to happen. I just throw with it, throw with time, throw whatever. But only worry that, you know, I ask my policeman, can I go back upstairs to say goodbye to my wife? Because she is the only thing that I worry. She has to really suffer more than I do. And that's the only thing I was concerned. He's escorted out of his mansion,

and then he's taken to the Apple Daily headquarters. And there's this just amazing scene of sort of a perp walk of Jimmy Lai through the newsroom. And there are hundreds of police, of Jimmy Lai through the newsroom. And there are hundreds of police, more than 200 police officers show up at the Apple Daily newsroom. Reporters go there and they're live streaming the police raid on their headquarters, and editors are getting in arguments with police.

And it's a really dramatic scene. And it's quite shocking to see so many police just descend on this newsroom. And so he, his two sons, and a few executives in his organization are arrested under national security violations. But it's not made clear exactly what, in the few weeks since the law went into effect, he has done to violate this.

And how does he describe his time in jail? He says that while he was being held, he thought about whether he would do things differently. Actually, I was thinking, if I knew that I would end up like this and imprisoned, would I have changed the way I run my life? And I realized that no, I wouldn't. Because I never did anything before intentionally, just naturally.

So it must be my character. Now, if it's my character, it's my destiny. So I was all relief. And I really don't have a liquid regret. And decides that at some point he was going to have this collision with the authorities, and he's satisfied with the things that he's done, that the choices he's made have led up to this point. Well, to that point, there's a line of thinking, and it's kind of a Chinese-centric line of thinking, but it's a line of thinking that the Communist Party

hastened the imposition of this very strict security law because of all the protests and the attention that they garnered. And to the degree that people like Jimmy Lai played a role in that movement, in supporting it, in amplifying it, criticizing China so openly, does he worry that he invited this law and its consequences faster than it might have happened if everybody, including Jimmy Lai, had acted differently? Did he miscalculate the Chinese response? He does have criticisms of the movement.

He argued for nonviolence. The violence and property destruction of the protests are things that he's critical of. You know, when the kids first broke into that state council, it was just shits. This is too much. the protests are things that he's critical of. always tearing those kids. We cannot be more violent than the CCP who has guns and tanks. The only thing we have is moral authority. This is the only power we have. But at the same time... But I can understand also why the kids are so violent,

because they are so desperate. They're at the beginning of their life. I'm at the end of it. It's easy for me to say what I say. But for them, if they don't fight, they will have the face of life without freedom. I don't know. If the whole movement was more moderate,

would the national security law come? I think the national security law, kind of like this, will come eventually anyway. But it just comes sooner. He says that the Chinese government would have arrived at this point one way or another, that these sort of restrictions on Hong Kong

were inevitable. And according to that logic, what would be the point of tiptoeing around any of this? What would be the point of acquiescing or delaying? It wouldn't gain much of anything. That's right. And, you know, he's not a subtle guy.

In some ways, he probably relishes the conflict that comes with forcing the authorities' hand. I just believe that CCP definitely want to clamp down on the rebellions of the Hong Kong people because they don't understand why Hong Kong people are so rebellious. They don't understand that we have a different value than those Chinese in China. And you and Tiffany were obviously talking to him in his home, not in a prison. So how does he get out? And so he's released on bail.

You know, if they don't send me to China, at least they will keep me in custody until trial. But now, after paying 300,000 cash on bail and 200,000 personal guarantee, I'm not even charged. I don't know what my crime is. There's not another day for me to appear in court yet, although my passport was confiscated.

And that's it. He's not allowed to leave Hong Kong, so there is a lot of uncertainty in terms of his future and also the future of his publications. You know, I'm struck, Austin, that Jimmy Lai's story, from the beginning, is, as you said, this quest for freedom and a quest for freedom that very much resembles Hong Kong's quest for freedom, the acquisition of it and then the loss of it. And he has tasted that freedom. But at this point, if we're being honest, it kind of feels like that battle is now ending and that he is on the losing side of it.

So does he see it that way? I don't think he does. I asked him about this because it struck me that now he was at a point in his life that was very similar to the experiences of protest leaders from 1989. the experiences of protest leaders from 1989. You know from 89 and the Tiananmen experience that often for political activists in China, there's a choice that's offered. You can go the path of Wang Dan and go to America. Some of those, like Wang Dan,

spent some time in prison and then left and now live a life of freedom overseas. Or you can go the path of Liu Xiaobo and stay in China and end up in prison. Yeah. And some of those, like Liu Xiaobo, who's the Nobel Peace Prize laureate, spent time in prison and died in prison. And so I asked Jimmy Lai. If a choice like that is...

I would choose the latter one. You would go to prison? Yeah. Yeah. That's the only way to end. Because it's just making it very expensive for them. If I stay. But it'd be very expensive for them. If I stay. But it'd be very expensive for you too.

Huh? I mean, to spend the rest of, potentially the rest of your life in a prison cell, that's a great cost as well. For one person, as opposed to a country, that's a big, good bargain. That's a very good bargain. That's a very good bargain. It was a very good bargain. It was a very good bargain. I choose to, I choose to bargain.

And he said that he would stay and fight and risk spending the rest of his life in a prison cell. That's a bargain that he sounds like he's willing to make. As somebody who's, you who's done very well from himself as an entrepreneur that seems like a tough bargain to take. It depends on what you want in life. If I was satisfied with being rich and a successful businessman, Jika saya bersuara dengan menjadi kaya dan seorang pembelajar berjaya, hidup saya akan menjadi kekurangan.

Itu bukan kehidupan yang saya suka. Saya hanya beruntung kerana mempunyai banyak wang. I'm just lucky to have so much money. Because I want to make it, you know. I'm just very lucky. I think that my true nature is a fighter. Well, Mr Lai, thank you very much. Thank you. As Tiffany and I are walking out,

I've interviewed Jimmy Lai a few times over the past 15 or so years. It occurs to me that this could potentially be the last time that I talk with him. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you, Austin you. Thank you. Thank you, Austin. We appreciate it. Thank you, Michael.

We'll be right back. Here's what else you need to nerdy. The Times reports that the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention has sent a letter asking states and cities to prepare for the distribution of a possible coronavirus vaccine as early as late October or early November. Such a quick timetable is not at all certain, but the letter has heightened concern among public health officials that the president is seeking to rush the distribution of a vaccine as part of his reelection strategy. And in an unusual move, the CDC is invoking emergency powers to bar landlords from evicting renters who are suffering financially because of the pandemic

in order to curb the spread of the virus. The CDC said that evicted residents who may turn to friends, family, or shelters are at a greater risk of catching and spreading the disease. The eviction moratorium, which has upset landlords, will last through the end of the year. That's it for The Daily. I'm Michael Barbaro. See you tomorrow.