The Daily - Keeping Harvey Weinstein’s Secrets, Part 2: Gloria Allred

Episode Date: September 19, 2019

In Part 1 of this series, our colleagues Jodi Kantor and Megan Twohey reported on Lisa Bloom, a victims’ rights attorney who used her experience representing women to defend Harvey Weinstein. In Part 2, we look at the role of Ms. Bloom’s mother, the women’s rights lawyer Gloria Allred. Guests: Jodi Kantor and Megan Twohey, investigative reporters for The New York Times and the authors of “She Said: Breaking the Sexual Harassment Story That Helped Ignite a Movement.” For more information on today’s episode, visit nytimes.com/thedaily. Background reading: “She Said” reveals new information about the labyrinth of secret settlements and nondisclosure agreements that allowed Mr. Weinstein and other powerful men to conceal their behavior.Ms. Allred’s law firm helped negotiate a confidential settlement in 2004 between Mr. Weinstein and Ashley Matthau, a dancer who accused him of sexual assault.Ms. Allred represents two women who are expected to testify against Mr. Weinstein at his trial, scheduled to begin in January.

Previously on The Daily. So there we are, moments from publishing the story, and the role of Lisa Bloom is finally coming into focus. Within a week, we'd realize that her mother had also played a surprising role. Today. So, we published the story. Famed Hollywood producer Harvey Weinstein is responding tonight after the New York Times revealed decades of sexual harassment. And the reaction starts to build.

The idea that this predator, this assaulter was out there silencing women, it's beyond infuriating. Most of it is about Harvey Weinstein. Some of it is about Lisa Bloom. Interestingly enough, one of the attorneys working with Weinstein is Lisa Bloom, daughter of the very high-profile women's rights attorney Gloria Allred. People are incredulous that a women's rights advocate could have played this role. Celebrity lawyer Lisa Bloom sells herself as a fiery champion of the oppressed. She represented one of Bill Cosby's accusers and three women who said Bill O'Reilly sexually harassed them.

Yet in the case of Harvey Weinstein, Lisa Bloom took the side of the predator over the prey. She's normally on the other side. She's normally the first attorney defending women in most of these cases. Which may have something to do with why he hired her. It'll be interesting to see how this whole thing plays out. So then... Joining me now is attorney Gloria Allred, whose daughter, attorney Lisa Bloom, is on Harvey Weinstein's legal team. Thank you so much for coming in. Gloria Allred starts to play a public role in this story. I don't second-guess her choices. I don't criticize her choices. But it's kind of a strange and a confusing one.

What is that dynamic right now? Well, my daughter has her own law firm. She is not with my law firm. She is an independent attorney. On the one hand, she sounds kind of disapproving of her daughter. I mean, I've been a lawyer for almost 42 years. We're the leading women's rights law firm in the nation, and we represent victims of sexual harassment. We don't represent persons accused of sexually harassing.

She's saying that she, Gloria Allred, only represents accusers, that she would never represent the accused. On the other hand... That is not a statement of criticism of my daughter. She's kind of defending her daughter. She's an outstanding attorney, and all I can say is Harvey Weinstein is very fortunate to have her. But mostly what she's conveying... Mr. Weinstein can exercise any legal rights, but that doesn't take care of the people I care about.

...is that she, Gloria Allred... Numerous alleged victims of Harvey Weinstein. We want justice for them. ...is open for business. Meaning what exactly? So as you remember from this time. Two more women have come forward accusing media mogul Harvey Weinstein. Two more women coming forward and making serious allegations.

There is a flood of Harvey Weinstein victims coming forward. In graphic detail, accusing Harvey Weinstein and adding to the list that has now grown to more than 60. Gloria Allred is saying, I'll be your lawyer. Women are now empowered and they will never be silent again. And a number of them. Thank you for coming today. Say yes.

Today, I'm here with another woman who alleges that she was sexually harassed by Harvey Weinstein. Gloria is amazing and so amazing for someone like me who's not a celebrity, doesn't have the support system that they have. Today, a new accuser of Harvey Weinstein is speaking out about the sexual harassment that she alleges that she endured as a young actress and screenwriter. Who, at the request of Mr. Weinstein... I felt so powerless. I didn't think anyone would believe me.

I was nobody. Why would they? Thank you. And so like so many high-profile cases of this kind... It's okay. Yeah. high-profile cases of this kind. There's Gloria Allred with her arms around these women, insisting that she's going to help give them voice. But what she's not saying is that she and her firm had actually known that something was wrong for years and had actually helped keep it quiet.

Yesterday, in part one, my colleagues Megan Toohey and Jodi Kantor reported on how Lisa Bloom switched over to defend Harvey Weinstein and used her experience representing women to undermine them and to try to stop Megan and Jodi's investigation into Weinstein. investigation into Weinstein. Today, in part two, after their investigation publishes, the role of Lisa's mother, Gloria Allred. It's Thursday, September 19th. So the newsroom is suddenly also inundated by stories about Harvey Weinstein.

We're getting email after email, call after call. Our voicemail boxes are full on our cell phones, on our other phones. Messages are coming in through Facebook and Instagram to the paper's tip line. We have to call in more colleagues to help. It's kind of surreal for us because for so many months we've been trying to get women to talk, and now they're coming to us. And so we're trying to understand as many of these stories as possible. We're checking them out. We're starting to publish more articles. And a lot of these stories are very revealing. But when it comes to Gloria Allred's role, one in particular

stands out. It was actually a tip that came in via email from an email address, harveyrapist at gmail.com, titled, Another Person Who Was Paid Off by Harvey for Near Rape. And the name that was provided was Ashley Mathau. The name that was provided was Ashley Mathau. Hello? Hi, Ashley. It's Megan. And I ultimately got Ashley on the phone. Hey, how are you?

I'm good. How are you doing? I'm doing better, thanks. Good. Okay, well, listen, there's a ton of... And you called Ashley back to talk to her for this story. Right. Anyway, I'm just so grateful to be able to reconnect with you. Well, thank you. Yeah. Me too.

And she started to tell me the story about what had happened to her in 2004. Well, I was dancing in a movie called in one of Weinstein's movies. I mean, it's going to sound familiar now, you know, basically badgered into a work meeting at a hotel room. And he was there with his assistant at the time. She was like around my age and I felt a little more comfortable because, you know, I thought she was going to be there the whole time. You know, he wasn't going to do anything with someone else in the room. And then she shut the door wasn't going to do anything with someone else in the room. And then she shut the door and I went in the room by myself. And so you don't have to, you know, you don't have to spell out everything that happened once you guys were in the hotel room. I'm not going to. She says that would happen

once the door was closed, was terrifying. She says that he basically kind of pushed her down on the bed and masturbated over her. So I was just really terrified. I felt like trash. And when you got back to California, you know, who did you tell about what had happened? I talked to Charlie, my fiance at the time. I talked to Charlie, my fiance at the time. He was very upset, but he suggested to talk to Gloria Allred and to kind of stand up for myself. So he immediately thinks of Gloria. comes to mind. He has seen her on TV. He has seen her by the sides of victims and, you know, recounting their stories through tears. And he really says, I think if anybody can help you, it's Gloria Allred. So what did you do? What was your first interaction? Did you pick up the phone and call Gloria or? Yeah, we talked to Gloria and Gloria, I think, was, like, busy at the time.

So she referred me to John West at her firm. Who counseled Ashley that her best option was to accept a secret settlement. They offered, like, a $125,000 settlement, and John advised me just to take it. You know, you're not really strong enough to kind of go up against him, and so that's what I ended up doing. Meaning an agreement in which the victim will accept money, and everybody will basically agree not to talk about it anymore. Exactly right. Were there any other sort of stipulations or clauses in the settlement that you recall? I remember them saying that they, you know, wanted me to talk about Harvey in like a good light and, you know, that I only just saw him on the set. He was a great person to work for. I couldn't say anything negative about him or the situation.

She is legally prohibited from ever talking about what happened ever again. The restrictive clauses that go along with these settlements are remarkable. You know, women oftentimes can't tell their husbands, they can't tell their colleagues. If they want to see a therapist, the therapist has to sign a confidentiality clause. They have to turn over any evidence, any documentation they have of what's happened. I wasn't happy about that, but I guess I felt like it was really my only option. And John told me it was really my only option. So 13 years pass. Tell me what you're thinking when you see the news about Harvey Weinstein break in October 2017. I was just blown away and shocked and kind of numb. I was really surprised

at the amount of women that he did that to. It put all the puzzles together. that too. It put all the puzzles together. And did you see in that first week, like within days of that story breaking, did you see Gloria Allred going out in front of the TV cameras and saying that she would represent Weinstein victims? Yes, which is funny because she didn't really have the time back in 2004. But then all of a sudden, you know, once it was like a news story, then she was representing like 14 or something. I'm not sure what the specific number was, but it was interesting that she was offering to represent victims, but not making any mention that she had been aware of you. Yes. That really upset me. So why is Ashley telling you this? And even how is she able to tell you this? Well, she's not legally able to tell me this. She is technically breaking her settlement.

And this moment is she's starting to tell me everything that's happened. She is deciding that she's willing to face the legal risks because she feels that strongly about telling the world about what happened to her. So she tells me that she actually gets on the phone with Gloria Allred herself. You know, I called Gloria's office and I talked to John, letting him know that my therapist had said it would be kind of healing and good to come forward. And he said that he couldn't talk to me about it, that I would have to talk to Gloria. And she got on the phone with me when she was in New York. It was like 9 p.m. in New York

time. And Gloria started the conversation with, do you realize like how lucky you are to be on the phone with me while I'm in New York at 9 p.m. from my hotel room? I deal with a lot of, like, high-profile people. So I was just, like, blown away by that. So I explained to her the way I was feeling, and I felt like now, knowing all the stuff that I knew, that I felt like it was the right thing to do. And she advised me against it. I, you know, had asked her why. And she said because of the NDA and that he could sue. And I said, yeah, but I feel like back then I didn't know the things that I know now. And she goes, well, you're willing to take that risk?

Like, are you and Charlie rich? Like, how much money do you have? Are you and Charlie rich? How much money do you have? It was just a really weird conversation. is telling Ashley not to come forward as a victim of Harvey Weinstein in the wake of your investigation. She is publicly representing women who have come forward since your investigation published with new accusations against Weinstein. Right. And privately, she is counseling this other Weinstein accuser to stay quiet. She is telling her, if we get phone calls, we won't even acknowledge that

we represented you in this case. And the other thing that kind of hurt or upset me was the fact that they wouldn't say that they represented me. They wouldn't even acknowledge that. But yet, they have so many other clients after the fact, after it all broke out. So that upset me. Did you think that she thought that she or her firm would lose money if you broke the settlement? I think I recall you saying that they had taken a 40% cut of the payment that was made to you. Yeah, they took a 40% cut. I don't really know how that works. Maybe she felt like she would lose money on it. Yeah. I don't really know what the reason was. I thought it was either that or it was either something to do with her knowing about this whole Weinstein thing back in 2004 and her being like

the top women's rights activist and being known for that and having that reputation. I thought that she would be behind me, especially since she knew a lot about the case and was representing people, other people. Did that change your perception of Gloria? Oh, yeah, definitely. I felt like she wanted basically all the media attention. Like, once it became a big story, then she wanted to be a part of it. She wanted to be a part of it.

But when it was not in front of the cameras, it was something that she didn't. So what are you thinking at this point? You know, it's complicated. You know, on the one hand, I know that these secret settlements exist and that lawyers like Gloria Allred have been involved in them. And I recognize that victims should receive financial compensation for what's happened to them. But on the other hand, I'm also realizing more and more that by negotiating and participating in these types of secret settlements that Gloria Allred has basically helped Harvey Weinstein cover his tracks. These secret settlements basically erase any evidence of, in his case, a very long pattern of alleged predation.

And look, not all of these cases are Harvey Weinstein situations where you have a secret settlement followed by another allegation, followed by a secret settlement, followed by another allegation. But if we look in Gloria Allred's case file, we do see that she did help silence an alleged victim of Bill O'Reilly's and a victim of Larry Nassar's. In addition to a victim of Harvey Weinstein. Yes. Yes.

Looking at it now, knowing everything you know, what do you think about these types of secret settlements and their role in sexual harassment and sexual assault cases? Now knowing what I know, I don't think they're right. I think it makes the assaulter able to do it to other people and hide it and the thing that you would think with like the lawyers would be that they would protect you into like you just you don't feel comfortable to move forward and to go against these people especially like someone like Harvey so you feel like that's your only option. I mean, that's not the only thing that helps Harvey, but I don't think it's a good idea. Well, thank you so much, Ashley. Truly. Thank you. We'll be right back. Megan, Jodi, the obvious question in all of this would be, why would Gloria Allred do this?

This woman that we think of as an outspoken champion of women. Because this is actually pretty standard. There are women signing these kinds of secret settlements every single day. This is more or less the way we deal with sexual harassment in this country. Remember that the system

for getting justice or redress in these cases is very, very complicated. To bring a case to court can take years. It can be expensive and draining. You can ruin your reputation. You can be branded a traitor or a tattletale. Even if you win in court, the damages are capped at a couple of hundred thousand dollars. So there are lots of individual scenarios in which this really does look like the best available option. I wonder if part of what she represents in doing this work, and other lawyers too, I wonder if they represent what women were willing to literally settle for for a long time, that this was the best you could get, that if something bad happened to you, you could hopefully walk away with some money. You could walk away with your dignity intact because for a long time it really was presumed that this was something shameful.

This was something you wouldn't want anyone to know. And it's only been pretty recently that that idea has started to change. You know, I have actually spoken to Gloria Allred about this issue more than once over the last couple years. And she does, in fact, make a lot of the arguments that Jodi just spelled out on why these things serve her clients and why they'd want them. She also, in our last conversation, acknowledged that some of her clients actually don't want secrecy. She said that, you know, a client will say, I want to be compensated. This is a significant amount you've been able to achieve for me. I'm very happy with that, but why should I have to keep secret? And she acknowledged that she herself has often

talked the women into it, talked the clients into it, saying that's because that powerful figure wants peace, wants to end it, and wants to move on in the same way that you want to move on. And that's the essence of the problem. Are these secret settlements giving women some compensation for harm that they've experienced? Sure. Are they solving the problem of sexual harassment in this country? Absolutely not. Are they, in fact, allowing perpetrators to go on and harm other people? And it seems like, based on your reporting, we know that in some cases, they are.

Correct. I was surprised when you decided to represent Harvey Weinstein. Tell us why. Well, that is the question a lot of people are asking. So catch us up on Gloria Allred and her daughter, Lisa Bloom. When we left off with Lisa, she was facing tremendous blowback for her role in representing Harvey Weinstein. Yes, and almost immediately she changed messaging. Okay, so first let me say I very much regret ever being involved in this. I'm mortified that I was connected with him in any way.

And all the people who have reached out to me to say, Lisa, you know, we're hurt, we're disappointed in you. Like, I get it. And I'm very, very sorry. She said that she had been unaware of all of the serious allegations against him, that she had only tried to help him see the error of his ways, but that it had been actually a grave error of judgment on her part, and that she was going to return to working with only women 100% of the time.

You know, one of the lessons for this in me is, I've talked to everybody in my law firm, we are no longer ever going to represent somebody accused of sexual harassment or sexual assault. They're entitled to lawyers, but it's not going to be us. And since then, she's really has, in fact, worked to rehabilitate her image. She's represented women in a variety of high-profile cases, including... Lisa Bloom is with me. She is a victim's rights attorney. She is representing two of Epstein's accusers.

Lisa, thank you so much for being here. The case of Jeffrey Epstein. She is now, at least last time we checked, representing two of Epstein's alleged victims. They worked as young waitresses at a coffee shop. They were also... Megan, that is genuinely shocking. Everything you have told us here paints a portrait of a woman who used her credibility

as a defender of women to try to undermine them in defense of Harvey Weinstein. And now you're saying that she's getting new clients who want her to defend them against the Harvey Weinsteins of the world. How does that work? Well, nobody has known about all of those sort of secret records that spelled out exactly the type of work that she did for Weinstein. The memo in which she spelled out all of the different underhanded tactics that she was going to use to help him go after his accusers, all of the explicit work that she did to help him evade scrutiny and cover up women's allegations. We are just coming forward with that information now. So in reality, we don't know what's going to happen here when it comes to Lisa Bloom and her representations.

No, this is just starting to play out. And what about Gloria? Gloria Allred has continued to play basically the same role on the public stage that she has for a long time. She's viewed as a fierce champion for women. It is an honor and a privilege to present this award for her commitment to empowering women. She gets honors all the time. Gloria, we all thank you from the bottom of our hearts. There was just a Netflix documentary that was made about her that was very laudatory. This has got to end, and it needs to end right now.

There is a war on women. Women depend on me to be strong. And in fact, as we head into the Harvey Weinstein trial, which is supposed to start in January. Actress Natasha Malty joins me now, along with her attorney, Gloria Allred, who is representing several women accusing Weinstein of sexual misconduct. She's actually going to be the lawyer for two of the alleged victims. We did ask both women to come on the show for interviews. And Gloria Allred said that she was not available to do that within our time frame. And Lisa Bloom sent us an email. And this is what she wrote back. Jodi and Megan, congratulations on the book. I appreciate your reaching out, but due to my heavy litigation caseload, I'm not available for this interview.

Best wishes on the daily. I enjoy the podcast. Best, Lisa Bloom. Much of the information in this episode was reported by Megan and Jodi for their new book, She Said. We'll be right back. Here's what else you need to know today. Here's what else you need to know today. In Israel, the full results of national elections left Benny Gantz and his politically moderate party with slightly greater support in the Israeli parliament than Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu and his conservative party. But neither man with enough support to form a majority coalition on their own. The Times reports that a large turnout by liberal and Arab voters

deprived Netanyahu of a majority in what amounted to a turning point in Israeli politics and a rejection of Netanyahu's hard-right approach. Now, Gantz and Netanyahu are both jockeying to court enough smaller parties to build a viable majority and claim the prime minister's office. That's it for the daily i'm michael babarro see you tomorrow