The Daily - Letting Louis C.K. Back Onstage

Episode Date: October 18, 2018

Nine months after admitting to sexual misconduct with multiple women, Louis C.K. dropped into a New York City comedy club unannounced and tried to make a comeback. And then he returned, again and again. We talk to the club owner who gave him that stage. Guest: Noam Dworman, the owner of the Comedy Cellar. For more information on today’s episode, visit nytimes.com/thedaily.

From The New York Times, I'm Michael Barbaro. This is The Daily. Today. Nine months after being accused of sexual misconduct by multiple women, Louis C.K. dropped into a New York City comedy club, unannounced, and tried to make a comeback. And he's returned over and over. A conversation with the club owner who has given him that stage.

It's Thursday, October 18th. For those of you tuning in to see my interview with Louis C.K. tonight, I have some bad news. Then I have some really bad news. Louis canceled his appearance here tonight because the New York Times broke this story today. Five women are accusing Louis C.K. of sexual misconduct. Multiple women coming forward with accusations against Louis C.K. of sexual misconduct. Multiple women coming forward with accusations against Louis C.K. Dana Min Goodman and Julie Woloff told the New York Times he proceeded to take all of his clothes off and get completely naked and started masturbating. Comedian Rebecca Corey said while on a TV set in 2005, quote, he asked if we could go to my dressing room so he could masturbate in front

of me. Ms. Corey said she declined and pointed out that he had a daughter and a pregnant wife. His face got red, she recalled, and he told her he had issues. Comedian Louis C.K. says sexual misconduct claims made against him by several women are true. I have been remorseful of my actions and tried to learn from them and run from them. Now I'm aware of the extent of the impact of my actions. What came out in the New York Times article today has been public knowledge to people in the comedy community for years. Hey, that's it. It just starts like that? We're rolling.

We're rolling. Hi. Come on in. Thanks. Do you want me to leave? Oh, I guess I'll bring my bag with me. So it's, is the kitchen up here? The kitchen up here serves both rooms, yeah.

Yeah. And this is the hallway. This is the famous hallway. I am not as experienced a comedic consumer as... So it's both rooms, yeah. Yeah. And this is the hallway. This is the famous hallway. I am not as experienced a comedic consumer as most people are. Well, downstairs, the most famous names are downstairs. Well, this is Hassan Minaj, actually. This is Guy Elmala. This is Bill Maher. Wow.

Mike Verbeeg, Leo Jeff Ross, Jimmy Carr from England. Here's Louis, Ben Bailey. This is Louis C.K. Yeah, Dave Attell, Jon Stewart. Wow. This is like a... There's Louis. Ben Bailey. This is Louis C.K. Yeah. David Tell. John Stewart. Wow. This is like a... There's Michelle Wolf. Bill Burr.

Who's this guy? That's Judah Freelander. I don't know him. He's famous. Is there anybody down this hall? There's Sarah Silverman. This is Aziz Ansari. Jerry Seinfeld.

Wow, this is a tight space. Yeah, it's small. The intimacy of it kind of blows my mind. What is its seat? Maybe like 75? No, 115. Okay. Yeah. Comedian ascends here.

By ascend, I mean a single step. Yeah. here. By a send, I made a single step. Yeah. A few weeks ago, I sat down with the owner of the comedy cellar, Noam Dorman, inside his club. Tell me what it's like to be someone in the audience here. What's the expectation when you walk down these stairs into this room of what you're going to have? How much of it is pre-programmed? How much of it may be an utter surprise? How does this work? Well, you know, you make a reservation.

You come sit down and see, for the most part, the lineup that's posted on the internet. And then quite often there are drop-ins of famous people. Certainly can't count on it, but it happens regularly through the week. And just tell me exactly what a drop-in is. Well, somebody like a Chris Rock or Chappelle or somebody will be in town. And, you know, comedians, they need an audience to work out their material. It's not like any other, like a musician can sit home and record and practice or almost any other art form. You can find a way to do it yourself.

But stand-up comedy only exists in front of an audience. Right. It's that kind of live interaction. Well, a joke only works if people laugh. So the audience here comes thinking, maybe I'm going to hear this comedian and that comedian two or three, and all of a sudden, Chris Rock, Jerry Seinfeld,

whoever, drops in, tests out their material, transforms the night. Yeah. So tell me if you would about the night of August 26th, just a few weeks ago. Where were you that night, if you remember? I was actually in bed. I didn't find out about it until the next morning. Tell me about it.

What exactly happened? He came down. He performed. Louis. Yeah. And when I woke up in the morning, I saw a text message saying, Louis is here. After the fact. Yeah.

And what did you find out had happened? Well, that he had a notebook. He did a set. Apparently, it was the notebook that he had been using the last week that he had done comedy prior to this. And he just, I think, decided, I'm just going to pick up where I left off. And do you know how he was introduced? Kind of how the, roughly what words were used and how the audience reacted? What's your recollection? Yeah.

What's been reconstructed? The host is something like, you know. What do you say? Yay! I'm actually really excited. There's no need for an introduction. You know who this guy is. Please give it up for Louis C.K., everybody.

Ladies and gentlemen, you know this guy from his show on FX. Please make welcome Louis C.K., something like that. You know, there was no fanfare. And do you know how the audience responded? Yeah, they cheered. Thank you. Do you know any of the examples of jokes he tried out during this performance? Yeah, about parades, about tipping waitresses.

It was just, they were not very startling premises. In the way that this was reconstructed in the media, and correct me if any of it's wrong, he does a familiar routine. He does a set that is classic Louis C.K. He mentions whistles. And one of the things he mentions is a joke about a rape whistle. So it sounds like classic Louis C.K., despite the fact that those kinds of jokes

have a different, entirely different resonance. Yeah, I don't think he was tuned into that. The joke was about his daughter said something that, you know, dad, not all whistles are clean. What about the expression clean as a whistle? And so he started talking about different whistles, this kind of whistle, that whistle, rape whistle. Well, that's not so clean. And it wasn't a rape joke by any means. It sounds like it was a performance that did not address what I would regard as the elephant in the room. Yeah, he didn't address it.

This is Nightline. Tonight, no joke. Comedian Louis C.K.'s surprise appearance at a comedy club just months after admitting to allegations of sexual misconduct. There is no greater threat to women than men. We're the number one threat to women. Igniting a firestorm. He does not have the right to make those jokes anymore. In the era of the Me Too movement, why some say it's too soon. When did you realize that this was going to be a big deal? Well, I got a lot of hate mail.

I got threats of violence. Really? I mean, what was the content of those kinds of threats? Were they voicing those? We're going to firebomb the club, things like that. Yeah. Scary. Can I ask you, Noam, as this criticism is coming in, are you identifying what feel like meaningful criticisms and pushback? Yeah.

And what are they? Yeah. So some of the people felt ambushed. You know, you can imagine you wait all week to go out to a comedy club on Saturday night. And you walk into something which really, really upsets you, and you're angry at the place for doing that. So what I've done to answer that is that we have a very clear policy. Essentially, it says swim at your own risk.

We don't know who's going to pop in. If somebody pops in, not to your liking, you can leave, no questions asked. Your check is on the house. We don't want to upset you. So nobody can say they were a captive audience, we don't want to upset you. So nobody could say they were a captive audience, which would infuriate me too. Other people were just upset that he should ever work again. But one guy said he's a comedian. And I'm like, okay, when do you think he could come work again? He's like, never. I'm like, never? He says, never.

I said, well, could you imagine any court of law handing down such a sentence? Never work again? He says, I don't care, never. This is an admittedly provocative question, but I wonder, as the owner of this place, what you would say, particularly to a female customer who is here. But, you know, I know when Bill Clinton, who is credibly, obviously, accused in Juanitaderick, I mean, I think nobody will expect a warning before he shows up somewhere. Nobody. Like, why were they cheering Roman Polanski as they were for years? Why were they giving him standing ovation? The director accused of sexually abusing a young man. Not accused.

He did it. He did it. But behind all these people you're mentioning, Roman Polanski, the film director, Bill Clinton, the president, Louis C.K., the comedian, is someone who gives them a stage. And in this case, that's you. Right, but I'm saying nobody cares that Mike Tyson,

who raped or was convicted of raping somebody, performs. I guess you can only control the venue you control. Yes, but it's not unusual to expect some consistency in the world. And when you see wildly inconsistent demands, if it's so obvious that the guy who masturbated in front of women and exposed himself in front of women should never work again. work again. But it sounds like you're saying, why should I, no, I'm the owner of a comedy cellar, do something out of the normal way of warning an audience? Why should I be special? From now on, I'm warning the audience. I've said that. But even though I will do that, do not expect people to be warning people about Bill Clinton. That's what I'm saying. I don't want my customers upset. But they overlay this entire moral structure on it. And they present it as if,

don't you understand how the world works? And I look around at the world and say, well, actually, no, that's not the way the world works. The world very much picks and chooses. So I have two ways to handle that. I can either get involved in that and tell this person you can't perform, this person you can perform,

and explain to them, well, how come you let Norm go on and you let, you know, I'm going to become a hypocrite overnight. Or I tell the audience, listen, this is the comedy seller. It's unfiltered. And we don't want you here not understanding that.

It's not the end of the world to see somebody that you don't like or that you, you know, but if it not the end of the world to see somebody that you don't like or that you, you know, but if it is the end of the world, for some people, it may be based on their traumas in their own life or the things that they know is just too difficult. So then this is not the place for them to come. Or you can come and just leave. No questions asked. Drinks on the house. As you've been thinking about this, what conclusions have you come to about who in our society gets to decide when someone can come back after these kinds of allegations and these kinds of admissions? Is it the audience? Is it the comedian, Louis C.K.? Is it you, the gatekeeper, you, the owner, the person who says yes or no? Who gets to decide? I might be on the wrong side of this because I can remember years ago when Mel Gibson said all those things about Jews and all that. I always felt you don't need to stop him from making movies. You know, I take that issue seriously, too.

And I can go see his movie or not. And I can go see his movie or not. I felt even then, oh, this is going to go in a bad direction because there's always a movement in one direction or the other. One guy gets boycotted, then people start looking around, okay, who's next? And then the standard of who's boycotted begins to diminish. And then, of course, there can be very inconsistent standards of who's boycotted. So yes, the answer I think would be that you should have the right to change the channel. I do hear you putting the responsibility for all this

on others, in a sense, the audience. And it still feels like a very powerful decision as the person who controls the venue to say this person can come back? Maybe it sounds like you disagree. They ask Twitter to filter tweets all the time. They want to throw people to Twitter. So the question in my mind is,

okay, so Roseanne Barr had that awful racist tweet. Do we wish that Twitter had filtered that out before it ever got out? That tweet could have never seen the light of day. Are we better off or worse off that they didn't do that? I think we're better off. filter that out before it ever got out. That tweet could have never seen the light of day. Are we better off or worse off that they didn't do that? I think we're better off. And she should get the ire of the country that she deserves or she should be able to make the case

of why she wants forgiveness and whatever it is. Why should this guy, what's his name, Jack Dorsey? Why does he have to filter the... And that's better for your Twitter. Yeah. But I'm saying more as a citizen. I've never wanted that. It's like they might as well burn books and ban Mein Kampf. Like that we feel that only the good people, only the good ideas should ever even be able to get to us. We should never be able to go buy them. We should not be able to read Mein Kampf. We shouldn't be able to go buy them. We should not be able to read Mein Kampf.

We shouldn't be able to learn about this guy. Don't worry, don't worry. That guy up there, he's read it and he's decided for us. And there's nothing more you could learn by reading it. What crime would you say to a painter? That's it. You're never going to pick up your brushes again. That's it.

I wonder, Noam, where you think the line needs to be drawn, though. Are you saying that no matter who the person is, what the allegations are, recent, not recent, that you'll let that person on your stage? I think the line has to be drawn by institutions. But we need to change the laws and the causes of action. We need procedures and institutions for this. There aren't really laws or formal procedures for some of the cases we're talking about. For masturbating in front of someone 11 years ago.

So I guess the question is, where do you draw the line? I reject the question. I would move to try to find a way to get our institutions to be able to deal with this better. I don't understand where you draw the line. I hear you saying- Draw the line where? I don't want to draw the line.

I mean, personally, if somebody, I have drawn lines, but those are my personal lines and I don't want to talk about them. But I'll tell you this, when I draw a line, I don't expect the club next door to draw the line. I do not judge them.

If there's somebody walks in and I can't bear to sit at the table with them, then I don't need to book them. But I don't want to be part of this team that is going to make sure that this person is punished. Let's lock arms, all the club on, and make sure that Louis never gets to get on stage again. It feels like you think that this debate has been misplaced, that we came in here asking questions about you as gatekeeper,

and that you may look at those questions and hear them and think to yourself, the real gatekeepers are the legal system who adjudicates this or doesn't and the marketplace of ideas and audiences who either decide to consume it or not consume it. Does that feel like an accurate? Okay, there's a criminal justice system

and then there's HR departments in most companies and I don't want it to be lost that within my workplace, yes, I'm responsible for that. And I have had situations where people had to be punished in the workplace. But what we're talking about is something quite different. This is somewhere else 15 years ago. And this is beyond my purview as the owner of the Comedy Cellar to start addressing that incident or every incident in a man's past. And will you have him back?

Do you expect him to be back soon? I don't know when he'll be back. Yeah, he's not banned by any means. I think he will be back. That's why we have the swimming for own risk policy. Well, I really want to thank you. I know this has been a challenging conversation

and I really appreciate your thoughtfulness and your candor. It's only challenging, not because the questions are challenging. I don't mind the questions. I enjoy the questions. I lament that I can't speak totally open, like kick this around with you,

with the freedom to say something wrong. Just to say something that might even come from not having the same life experience as you. Can end me. Yesterday, I called Noam back. Hello? Hey, Noam, it's Michael Barbaro. How are you? Hello, Jacob. Hello?

Yeah, thank you for making time for us once again. We really appreciate it. Okay. Are you at the club now? No, I'm home. Ah, good for you. You at the club now? No, I'm home. Ah, good for you. No, it's been about a month since we last talked,

and a lot has happened in that time. And one of those things is that Louis C.K. has actually returned to the Comedy Cellar, I think, a few times. And how many times has he been back? Well, he's been playing all over town now, so he's been at the club probably like four times, five times. And I know he's been also at Caroline's and at Westside Comedy Club and Governor's. So he's making a return.

Yeah. Really, Noam, I'm calling you back because I've been thinking about our conversation in the weeks since we talked. Right. And I realized that there were a few things I wished I'd asked you. And the big one was about this point that you were making, I think you made it several times, that this is really just a free speech situation.

The more I've been thinking about it, I've wondered if that isn't really what this is about, that this is your business. It's not a public square, right? And the Comedy Cell seller, by definition, curates an experience for the audience every night. These aren't matters of censorship or free speech. They're of selection, making choices.

You wouldn't put somebody who wasn't funny on stage, right? No, I would not. And you don't have to put someone who's funny and has also behaved badly on stage. No, I don't have to, but it's funny and has also behaved badly on stage. No, I don't have to, but it's my prerogative to do it. And all I'm trying to do here is understand your calculation, how you make the decision right now and where the line is. I can't be in a position where I'm going to start getting phone calls

about people who work for me on stage or off stage. And I'd say of things people say, you know, he did this to me in the past, he did this to me in the past, and I'm not denying that they're true. Just any one of these incidents that we're talking about here, the testimony on any one of these incidents might take eight hours. That is how much detail a system of justice requires, and you can't ask employers, we don't want to live in a country where employers start making drastic decisions. What I want to go back to is the legal system.

You said, I'm not the legal system, there is a legal system. So that makes me wonder about someone who has gone through the court system with some of these same issues. And that, of course, and this name may not surprise you, is Bill Cosby, right? He's gone through this. He happens to be a comedian. And so what's the line? If after he gets out of prison, he shows up at the Comedy Cellar

and just wants to do a drop-in, does he go on? I don't know. That's an impossible question. But I'll tell you, I mean, it's a possible question. Why is it impossible? Well, I'll tell you why.

The truth is, I wouldn't put Cosby on, and thankfully, to make my decision even... And why wouldn't you put him on? Well, I'm telling you, the audience wouldn't accept it, but I wouldn't because it's my place, and I wouldn't feel comfortable. I just wouldn't feel comfortable. But having said that, I would not criticize in the slightest somebody who did put him on. somebody who did put him on. Because after somebody has done their time, that is between the guy who's done his time and the guy who wants to employ him. That is not my business. I feel like I am finally understanding from you what your criteria is. That's what I've been trying to understand. What's the criteria people have to meet to go on your stage? And it

sounds... I don't have a standard. Right now, it's a case-by-case basis, and I can't imagine every situation that might come before me. I don't mind living and dying based on what the audience feels, but the people who are saying that Louis shall not work, they need to be questioned more closely as to where they draw the line. What's their worldview? What are their standards? How much evidence do they think is enough? How long is enough? How long should somebody go without working? What should they do when they're not working? Should they become wards of the state? Can they do some jobs but not other jobs? Is it okay for Walmart to hire Louie? Or is he so radioactive that nobody shall hire him? These are the tough questions. There's dozens and dozens of very, very important questions that are all going to be short-circuited here

if we're just going to allow employers to decide, oh, I heard what this guy did in his past. He shouldn't work for me anymore. I guess where I've landed, and here I can promise you we're concluding here. Hold on one second. Why are you crying? Can I finish on the phone, and then you tell? All right. I'll put it on the phone

and then you tell me what happened. Sorry, go ahead. Go ahead. I guess where I've landed is it's sort of like these decisions have meaning whether we like it or not,

whether you like it or not, the decision to have Louis C.K. on stage, it has meaning. And how much you and the rest of us have to come to terms with that. Yeah, it has meaning and there's no question about it.

This is kind of circular, but part of the meaning it has is how much meaning we decide that it has. And that's why I don't know, and maybe I haven't thought it through, I don't know that there are many would-be sexual abusers who are looking at whether or not Louis gets to do his set or not. That's a question of deterrence. I guess what I'm asking is... Yeah, but deterrence is the most important thing.

In your mind, the most important thing is keeping this from happening. Of course. Isn't that the most important thing to everybody, is to stop this going forward? You can't change the past. We don't want another single human being to be traumatized in this way. I think beyond deterrence, there will be many women who believe that letting men who have been accused,

and in this case of Louis, not just accused because he said, I did these things, to put them on stage sends another message. What message do you think that it sends to women? Whether or not you intended to send it at all. Because you may not. They can conclude... I don't know the... I feel it's not a fair question.

They can conclude... 20 different people can conclude 20 different things. People who believe that he should never work again will conclude that we don't take this sufficiently serious in society people who feel that he should never work again when they hear the ovation that you know has been recorded and released that of him going on in stage they will feel repulsed by a society that seems to not take what they feel seriously enough. Other people who believe in redemption, who believe in forgiveness, in second chances, and these kind of things, they may take the message that, good, we have a society that managed to dole out punishment while at the same time forgiving sinners.

What message do you hope, you yourself, Noam, the owner of the comedy, Is that not a good answer? No, it's a good answer, but it's about the 20 people and how they may decide. What message do you hope people take from it? I don't hope they take any message from it. I'm not trying to send any message.

In a sense, you're saying that you don't play a role. I am playing a role. I don't want to play a role. I don't want to play a role. I do not think we want people in a position to have pressure to end people's careers. I understand people are upset about it, but the idea that a willing audience shall not see a willing performer is a pretty bold concept. Is there anything, Noam, that you want to say that we didn't give you a chance to, that you feel like you haven't been able to say? I hope that self-interest-wise, the entire comedy club community has decided to let this guy go on again. club community has decided to let this guy go on again. And to some extent, I feel like all the heat is coming down on me.

Oh, maybe because you're the best known. Yeah, right. And maybe because I'm stupid enough to speak up for myself about it. But at some point, you know, it's a lot. And then to hear the accusation of all the benefit I'm getting from it, like, whoa, people just don't understand. Well, I really appreciate you staying on the phone with me and being willing to talk about something that is complicated and difficult. Okay, okay.

Okay, good luck. Yes, sweetheart, I'm here. I'm here. We'll be right back. Here's what else you need to know today. On Wednesday, the Turkish government described audio recordings from inside the Saudi Arabian consulate in Istanbul that they say capture the final moments of Jamal Khashoggi's life. According to the Turkish officials, Saudi government agents were waiting for him inside and almost immediately began to beat, torture, and dismember him. and almost immediately began to beat, torture, and dismember him. At one point, the officials said, the Saudi forensic specialist brought in to dissect Khashoggi's body,

advised his colleagues to listen to music to make the task more tolerable. Go ahead. We haven't asked for it. If it exists, we haven't asked for it. We've asked for it if it exists. We have asked for it. We've asked for it if it exists. In Washington, President Trump said he had requested a copy of the recording, even as he raised doubts about its existence. Are you surprised that they haven't turned it over? No, I'm not sure yet that it exists. Probably does, possibly does.

Pressed by reporters on why he has seemed to defend Saudi Arabia's leaders in the face of growing evidence that Saudi agents murdered Khashoggi, Trump insisted he was not seeking to protect them. I'm not giving cover at all. But he quickly reminded reporters of America's close economic ties to the Saudi kingdom. If you look at Saudi Arabia, they're an ally and they're a tremendous purchaser of not only military equipment, but other things.

When I went there, they committed to purchase $450 billion worth of things and $110 billion worth of military. Those are the biggest orders in the history of this country, probably the history of this country. Probably the history of the world. That's it for The Daily. I'm Michael Barbaro. See you tomorrow.