The Daily - 'Modern Love': He’s Gay. She’s Straight. They’re Newlyweds.

Episode Date: June 22, 2025

When Jacob Hoff and Samantha Greenstone met, they became instant best friends. Then, even though Jacob was gay, they realized that their feelings for each other were evolving beyond the platonic, and they decided to give romance a try.On this episode of “Modern Love,” Hoff and Greenstone tell Host Anna Martin how their love gave him the courage to come out to his conservative family. They also explain that when they decided to get married, they realized they’d have to get used to clarifying their commitment again and again. This episode was inspired by Jenny Block’s Mini-Vows piece, “A Close Friendship That Developed Into a ‘Soulful Connection.”For more Modern Love, search for the show wherever you get your podcasts. New episodes every Wednesday.  Unlock full access to New York Times podcasts and explore everything from politics to pop culture. Subscribe today at nytimes.com/podcasts or on Apple Podcasts and Spotify.

Love now and forever. Love was stronger than anything. I feel the love. Love. And I love you more than anything. What is love? There's still love. Love.

From the New York Times, I'm Anna Martin. This is Modern Love. Every week, we bring you stories about love, lust, heartbreak, and all the messiness of relationships. Now, typically, these conversations come from the Modern Love column. But today, we were inspired by the vows section of the paper, and were talking to a pair of newlyweds, Jacob Hoff and Samantha Greenstone. Right away, the details of their wedding stuck out to me.

Like, for example, the song Jacob chose to walk down the aisle to. I wanted to come down to the Phantom of the Opera. There's this moment, this woman just screams and it's like, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun. I was like, that's what needs to happen as I appear in a mask. Then Samantha also wanted to put as I appear in a mask. And then Samantha also wanted to put her own spin on the wedding.

I love Titanic. There was a point where I wanted to have a sinking Titanic on top of our wedding cake, but my mother and the wedding planner said, no, you want to have an event where thousands of people died on your wedding day. And I was like, I mean, it's also like the most beautiful love story. Clearly, their tastes are aligned. But they're actually an unlikely pair, because Jacob is gay and Samantha is straight. A lot of people don't understand their relationship, but they describe their connection as romantic and special. They call it a soul tie. They call it a soul tie. When you are with the right person,

this thing is tethering you guys so firmly together that it is an unbreakable bond. And I think if people just did look for the partners that made them feel secure in that way, I don't know. I think that it's like the secret to love. Samantha and Jacob have been together for over seven years now, but I wanted to know what does their relationship mean for their individual identities, and what did it take for them to come together in a marriage. Stay with us. Okay, Jacob and Samantha, I gotta know how the two of you met. We met at a callback for the musical Fiddler on the Roof. And so we both were sticking around for a part

and they bring the part in for Frumicera, who is this ghost in a nightmare sequence. And it's just like dead silent. And then I just hear this, ah ha ha ha ha ha! Through the door. And I'm like, whoa, who was that? And what person could be that ballsy?

This person literally didn't give a fuck. And I was enamored. It was me. And I like immediately knew that was her. I just had- Wait, how did you know? How did you know? I don't know, I just had this like laser vision.

I looked like a cackler. Yeah, and I just ran up and I was like, if they don't give you that part, they're crazy. And it was kind of like a diva meeting a fan at that moment. Like she was like, you know, thank you. And. I needed just this like high five to let me know that like, I feel good about this.

So it was amazing to have this like reiteration that, okay, like you did a good job. Samantha, did your connection with Jacob feel like anything other than friendship? It definitely felt sacred and it felt like something that I had never experienced with anyone before, but it was also confusing because I knew that Jacob was gay.

So I was like, okay, like I'm feeling like this like connection of that. Da, na, na, na, na, na, na, na. Like that's the best way I can describe it. I can't even put it into words. I can only put it into that sound. But it was confusing because I'm like, well, he's gay, so can it be that? But it felt like that.

Yeah. Jacob, how would you have described your sexuality at the time? That was interesting. Internally, I knew I was gay, and I shared that with select people who I felt comfortable with. There was still, I had not shared that with my family yet, and there was some avoidance and some fear of coming out. And there were certain people that I didn't feel comfortable sharing it with. So I kind of just kept quiet about things most of the time, but somebody like Samantha, who was my close friend,

I would confide that in. And so it was, yeah, there was a lot of sort of inner turmoil with that, having not fully come out to everyone yet and living the truth yet. She comes in and like adds to the confusion because I'm just like, now wait a minute, now I'm like, like this person, it's weird, like this connection is unique and maybe it does go beyond just friendship. How were you sort of processing this friendship at the time?

You know, the first indication that something was different, I remember, I think it was like the second or third time we hung out and we went to a restaurant together. And I remember, like, the excitement of getting ready and then going and, like, picking her up. And I was like, God, this feels like a date. Like, this feels the way somebody would be, like, giddy about going on a date with somebody.

And there was, like, this weird nervousness in me, and it was throwing me for a loop. But I never, I never considered saying something or taking it anywhere further because I didn't wanna disrupt what was going on. Were you attracted to Samantha? I was attracted to Samantha, but as I talk about the way,

and I continue to talk about the way our attraction works, it's such a soul connection and it's such an attraction to who she is and the person that she is and her entity. And it's not in that sort of almost lustful sense. It's not in that the body parts or the way I'm attracted to men feels very different than the way I am attracted to Samantha. And hers is a much, it's a very deep well and the way I'm attracted to men feels very shallow and surface.

Samantha, when you and Jacob were going on this maybe date, maybe not a date, did you feel that same, like, nervous, fizzy giddiness? Yeah, I did. And I mean, like, he paid for my food. And it did kind of feel like it had this, like, special thing about it. But, like felt like I was like kind of being courted but also I'm like, okay, I'm being courted by this friend.

This homo. This homo. I mean, I want to ask like, for you, Samantha, like you're starting to feel what you would consider like romantic feelings towards Jacob at this time. Is that true to say? For you, Samantha, like, you're starting to feel what you would consider, like, romantic feelings towards Jacob at this time. Is that true to say? Yeah. I think I was feeling these feelings, but I was also very guarded and really taking

it slow with this. And then, of course, you add the gay element to it, and I'm like, okay, this can't be that, but like, this is something. And I guess I'm just going, I knew that it was so special that I didn't wanna mess anything up, and I was okay with having to be patient and seeing how it played out.

I don't know, did these feelings that we're building for Jacob start to feel like you couldn't ignore them, like you kinda had to act on them? About 18 months into our friendship, I decided to text Jacob to ask if he had more feelings than just a friendship for me. How did you decide to do that approach? What was your method of sort of opening up this conversation that I would say both of you had been pretty terrified

to begin, you know, to look this thing in the face? What did you do, Samantha? I literally just sent him a text message, which is probably like in theory the worst way to do it. I was at a place where I was just like, I need to cleanse the uncertainty from my life. Whatever that means, even if he doesn't feel more feelings for me than a friend, you know, at least it's out there

and I have an answer and I don't have to live with this anymore. I was just like, it needs to be purged from my being. But we knew each other so well that I was like, okay, this, he's going to just understand what I'm trying to say here. So I texted him and I was like, do you ever feel more than just a friend for me? Jacob, I want to switch to you right now.

What were you doing when you got Samantha's text and how did you react? I remember looking at it and two very distinct feelings happened. One was, of course I feel this way and I can't believe she's taking the initiative to say it and being bold enough to say it after we've both been beating around the bush for 18 months. And the other was immense fear that this was going to ruin our friendship because I wasn't going to be capable of having a relationship with her. And then I sent her a text back saying, what do you mean, which was a stupidest thing. And I was like, oh, fuck.

That was like me just stalling. And then like two minutes later, I'm like, what did I just say? Like, that's so dumb. And so then I said, of course I feel more for you than a friend, and I'm willing to try and see where this goes. I mean, what was your biggest holdup? I'd imagine there was maybe some fear around whether you could perform physically or sexually? I think I just knew that that was going to be a part of it,

and that's where I felt I was inadequate or where this thing was going to fail. Because I knew every other aspect of it would work. I mean, we can hang out for umpteen hours and do everything else, but that was the one kink in the hose. That first meeting after these text exchange, like, tell me, did you explicitly acknowledge it? What were the conversations that you had when you met up in person for the first time after all of this?

It was like an elephant in the room that like, okay, now we're going to try it this way, but we never said another word. Yeah, it was like we just went on existing the way we would have before I had approached him. We were, she was living with a friend at the time and they, we were up chatting till late with the friend and hanging out and then she had her own room there. So we had platonically slept in the same bed many times. So we were just like, okay, we're going to go to bed.

Retire like the old phone. Yeah. It just happened that way. Even when the door was closed and you guys were in the same bedroom together and you didn't say like, you didn't talk about the sort of changed nature of the relationship? No. I think we were just laying there watching like a Marx Brothers movie. I think so.

And I think I just like leaned over and kissed you. Yeah. Yeah. And I think it just... Went from there? Got raunchy from there. I mean, how did that feel, that first kiss? The first thing was like, oh my gosh, I can't believe this is actually happening. But then it felt like, so what were we waiting for?

Why did we wait 18 months to come to this very easy, amazing place where, I mean, it didn't feel awkward. It didn't feel, like, uncomfortable. It just felt like we'd always kind of fit together. Yeah. Which I'd never felt before. That fear, I mean, all of that just slipped away in that moment. And it was just like normal and it felt like there's no pressure here if something doesn't happen. It was just because it was us and our relationship. Was there relief?

There'd been so much confusion about your relationship. Was there relief after this night? Oh, yeah. Totally. Oh. Just the fact that it could successfully work was major relief. Now, down the road in our relationship, things started to get more... After that honeymoon period, there became doubts and uncertainties and fears that crept

back in. Because I think just the longevity of it and the sort of, okay, we're moving to this phase where we live together and like we're really creating a life together imposed a new set of like, is this something maintainable? Is this something that can really last a lifetime? And for I think Samantha has said that she was worried she

was taking me away from being with a man. And I was very resolved with Samantha, but there was always that fear that I wouldn't be able to just successfully go through the boxes of like getting married and having a child and all those things that come with a straight relationship. Like my world was shook. After the break, Jacob tries to navigate the challenges of wanting to come out of the closet while in a relationship with a straight woman. That's coming up. [♪ MUSIC PLAYING FADES OUT, MUSIC FADES IN, MUSIC FADES OUT, MUSIC FADES OUT, MUSIC FADES IN, MUSIC FADES OUT, MUSIC FADES IN, MUSIC FADES OUT, MUSIC FADES IN, MUSIC FADES OUT, MUSIC FADES IN, MUSIC FADES IN, MUSIC FADES OUT, MUSIC FADES IN, MUSIC FADES IN, MUSIC FADES IN, MUSIC FADES IN, MUSIC FADES IN, MUSIC FADES IN, MUSIC FADES IN, MUSIC FADES IN, MUSIC FADES IN, MUSIC FADES IN, MUSIC FADES IN, MUSIC FADES IN, MUSIC FADES IN, MUSIC FADES IN, MUSIC FADES IN, MUSIC FADES IN, MUSIC FADES IN, MUSIC FADES IN, MUSIC FADES IN, MUSIC FADES IN, MUSIC FADES IN, MUSIC FADES IN, MUSIC FADES IN, MUSIC FADES IN, MUSIC FADES IN, MUSIC FADES IN, MUSIC FADES IN, MUSIC FADES IN, MUSIC FADES IN, MUSIC FADES IN, MUSIC FADES IN, MUSIC FADES IN, MUSIC FADES IN, MUSIC FADES IN, MUSIC FADES IN, MUSIC FADES IN, MUSIC FADES IN, MUSIC FADES IN, MUSIC FADES IN, MUSIC FADES IN, MUSIC FADES IN, MUSIC FADES IN, MUSIC FADES IN, MUSIC FADES IN, MUSIC FADES IN, MUSIC FADES IN, MUSIC FADES IN, MUSIC FADES IN, MUSIC FADES IN, MUSIC FADES IN, MUSIC FADES IN, MUSIC FADES IN, MUSIC FADES IN, MUSIC FADES IN, MUSIC and Samantha slept together, did it change the way you were thinking about your sexuality?

Were you like, I'm queer, I'm bi? Did this night change your self-assessment? No, I didn't really reassess myself. I basically just was like, this is my situation in life. I'm in this relationship with her and she's my best friend. And that I still knew my identity to be my identity and I think that's where the confusions set in for both of us. Hmm. Talk more about that.

Well, I think, like I said, there was a honeymoon period and then there was a period where we faced a lot of doubts and were like, how is this working? How are we maintaining this? How are you fulfilled by me if I'm a woman from Samantha's angle, I think? And it was daunting because I didn't have the words for that. I didn't have the, A, I didn't have the verbal tools or skills because my whole life was like, I say I'm like, my default is like a brooding Marlon Brando or James Dean. Like, I just am like, no. And she wants to talk about everything and get it out there. And I didn't have the words for that yet. Was that the first time you'd had sex with a woman?

Yes. I had had, you know, little interactions with women that were unsuccessful through high school and just when I was trying to figure out my sexuality. And eventually in college I got to a point where I realized this is never going to change. You think this isn't really me, I'm not really gay. I can change this. This is just some sort of, like, not a phase, but something that I have that if I concentrate hard enough, I will change this. And eventually, there gets to be a point where you grow up enough and you go, this just is who I am. And I'm not attracted to women, and that's fine. And I'm gonna just accept that. But I also was worried about my family accepting it.

I was mostly worried about my dad's side of the family accepting it because it was a very like conservative Christian upbringing. And they had said things, I mean, I went to a church where the pastor held up a petition to get everybody in the congregation to sign against gay marriage when they were trying to legalize it. What about your father specifically? How was he treating you?

You know, growing up, he had speculated, and, I mean, he would drive me to school, and I'd be sitting next to him in the car with my portable DVD player watching The Rocky Horror Picture Show. And he's, like, looking at this and making fun of it and being like, what is this? And then...

What is this gay shit? Yeah, literally. It's,'s like the gayest thing ever. And then, and I'm like, you know, dad, this is like my favorite thing in the world. And there was, there were like these moments in childhood where like I distinctly remember like seizing up and him like confronting me about it. And so there were these really like definitive moments in my life where I'm like, I'm not going to be accepted or be normal or be, you know, the hot shot guy if I'm a gay. And I wanted to be the hot shot guy and have success and, you know, that was troubling.

I mean, Jacob, that's really painful to feel like there's this truth that you cannot deny and you're surrounded by family, by a church, by a community that's telling you that that is the wrong way to be. That must have been a really difficult acceptance to reach. It was a really hard pill to swallow because I think at that point, I went into even a darker idea, which is just like, this isn't gonna change, but unless I'm so comfortable with the person, I'm just not gonna share anything about myself that way. So that was hard to just kind of live this closeted life

to so many. Samantha, I want to know from you, did the fact that Jacob was closeted to his family make you doubt your relationship with him in any way? I just felt, I mean, the doubts that I personally had were maybe, am I holding Jacob back from living his full happiest potential in life if he's gay? Because I don't want him to, like, eventually one day just feel like he's, like, trapped in this relationship.

And he wasn't a communicator, so I would try and talk to him about these things. And I don't think it was because Jacob did not feel safe communicating these things with me. I think Jacob just didn't know that there is a healthy way to talk about hard things with people. And there are safe spaces and safe people that you can go there with, and that it's not going to end up in this disastrous place. Like that's kind of the point of having a partner in your life.

Can you give me an example maybe of a conversation that you tried to have during this time and how it went down? Do you remember a specific moment? I mean, there were over a hundred of them. I mean, this was a weekly occurrence of maybe Samantha saying something to me like, well, why does your family doesn't know about this dynamic and what do they think? Do they, you know, it just kind of looks,

feels like we're living this lie without them knowing you're gay. And they feel like just like a normal relationship, which it is. But that sort of, that dynamic isn't fully being truthful to that side. And so she kind of probably felt like a beard at that point for my family, where it's like I can go home on Christmas and everybody can see me having a normal, hetero life. Or even me just explaining the fact

that I have no attraction to women was a major thing. Because it was just like, you know, she'd ask me, she'd ask me like, would I find this girl pretty or something, either someone we know or someone in public, and I'm like, no, like I can say, hey, that girl, you know, takes care of herself or is fabulous or does this or that, but there's no, nothing a woman's gonna do

that's ever gonna make me attracted to them. And that was my way of trying to just understand, because Jacob wasn't fully talking about his feelings, and he hadn't found his groove of communication yet, so my tactic was like, okay, like let me see if I can do it through real world examples. And that then for me translated into unfortunately a lot of anger.

I would be, it was like explosive. Like, you know, she would ask me something and I'd just be like, I'm gay. Why don't you get, I'm gay? You know, or like, why don't you, how don't you understand this? And I would take it out in crazy ways. I had road rage. I would get in arguments with people at stores

or anything because there was just so much bottled up crap from this, from a lifetime of navigating this. And well, I can tell her, but I can't tell them, and they, you know, maybe this will change, and now it's not gonna change, and now they can't see I'm gay. And I think I was worried, I wanted Jacob to feel like his relationship with his family was not based upon this, like, character

and this idea that he was showing them because I did I was worried at one point he would then start to feel like well my dad accepts this idea of who he thinks I am. Your family Jacob saw you dating a woman and they did not know the full truth behind your sexuality and this led to a lot of confusion and a lot of anger, as you say on your part. Can you tell me about how you finally told the truth to your family and what that experience was like?

Yeah, well, throughout the years, Samantha always said, I think you're gonna get rid of a lot of this anger if you tell them. And I was like, oh. Tell them you're gay. Yeah. And I was just like, no, no, no. Like, that has nothing to do with it.

Like, I don't care what they think or what they know or not know. And that's between me and you and not them. And we go to Florida. Samantha stays in Florida to be with her family. I come back to LA to work. And on the way back home, I get COVID. And I got like just a bad fever and chills. And I'm alone in our apartment. And it's one of those sicknesses where you're like, wow, like I feel like I could die.

Like it's not that it wasn't that dire, but you know, you have one of those or you're throwing up or something and you get that feeling. And all of a sudden I thought, I need to tell my dad about this. And it's like- Wow, what about that? Because it felt like, because why?

Why was that sickness a problem? I think it was just my brain confronting my life a little bit. Like it just, in that feeling of like sickness, my brain confronted that feeling of, like, sickness, my brain confronted maybe some of some things I would regret or some things that my life were problematic in my life. And that was, that just reared its head was like, you need to tell your dad you're gay. The next morning, I called him and I just told him. And I said, you know, Dad, I have to tell you something.

I'm gay. I feel I am a gay person and Samantha is my girlfriend, but this is just our relationship and that's, it's different than my sexual preference. And he was like, okay. And he was a little taken aback and I was like, dad, I was like, you had to have like thought that. I was like, I mean, I was like,

I was listening to share my entire childhood. Like, how are you not thinking that? And he's like, well, I just thought that was like the music you liked and stuff. And there was definitely like some shock, but he actually was so accepting, like so, so just like, okay. And it went over almost too easy. Jacob, when you came out to your father, you also spoke about your relationship with Samantha,

which they already knew about. But I wonder, like, do you think that because you were in a relationship with a woman, it made it an easier pill to swallow for him? Do you know what I'm saying? Yeah. I mean, potentially. I mean, if Samantha didn't exist, let's say, and I just lived my life, I think I probably would have just been avoidant my whole life. And Samantha, one of the amazing, one of the many amazing things that have come out of me by being with Samantha and knowing and loving Samantha is the ability to verbalize and confront things

and talk about hard things. And something I'd love to add about Jacob, and I will tell you, the second he got off the phone with his dad, he calls me and he's like, I just told my dad I'm gay. And it was like a new person was talking to me. It was like- So much of that anger dissipated. Instantly. Yeah.

It seemed like the fact of your relationship with Samantha perhaps softened this news for your father. But then also what you're saying is that it was only because of your relationship with Samantha that you were even able to deliver this news. And I guess like, did this heterosexual seeming relationship offer you some sort of protection that, yeah, I don't know. I don't know what the question is. I'm sorry, I'm having trouble.

No, I think it totally did. I mean, I think it was the anchor that allowed me to open up to my family about what was going on inside, because otherwise it just wouldn't have happened. Mm. And Samantha, your doubt that you were, or this feeling, this fear that you had that you were keeping him trapped in a relationship and not letting him explore his sexuality, what about that fear on your end? You know, I think as I have seen the number of ways

that Jacob shows up for me and his expression of love and just everything we've been through, I know that it's just deeper than just a sexual preference. I really think that my, once I understood that this is my soulmate and this is my person in life and we have just found ourselves in this dynamic and form in this lifetime, it made me realize, okay, this is, he's not going anywhere. I'm not certain about a lot of things in life, but I am certain that Jacob is in this forever. And so that kind of just went away completely.

Mm-hmm. Jacob, why is identifying as gay as someone who was only attracted to men so important to you? Right. And this is, to me, the most important thing and why we talk publicly about our relationship. The label gay is so important to me because for my mental health, for the years of turmoil that I lived in, struggling to come out, and for the true definition of my sexuality, it's the label that fits. I'm solely attracted to men. And Samantha being my soulmate is its own star in another galaxy. And that, when people say, well, why aren't you bisexual?

Well, bisexual means you're attracted to both. And I don't feel I'm attracted to both. I know I'm not attracted to both. I've never been attracted to a woman and never will be. And Samantha isn't a woman, she's a soulmate and a companionship. You know, I want to ask something that I think, I mean, I don't know, this whole thing is so vulnerable and sensitive and I appreciate you guys going there with me. I'm thinking about, Jacob, how you explained that, you know, to you, Samantha isn't a woman, she's a soul mate, right? And

that's also how she's in this different plane than physical attraction. And I guess, Samantha, from you, I want to know, like, does that make you feel, I don't know, any less sexual or desirable? Does that make sense to not be seen as sort of a physical... You not have that component of physical attraction? Yeah, I get what you're saying. If anything I feel, it actually makes me feel more attractive. Like, the way that I see myself through the way Jacob's eyes look at me is so beautiful. I never feel more beautiful or secure. When Jacob looks at me, he's seeing me for me and my being. And I don't have any insecurities about him being gay. And it is

important for me that he has that label because I know the work and the pain that he went through to get to a place where he could feel so comfortable shouting it from the rooftops. I know sometimes people comment and they're like, wow, poor Samantha, I could never be with a man who's not attracted to me. And I'm like, if only you could see and feel what I feel and how attractive I feel and how attractive I feel

and how much I know Jacob is attracted to me and how amazing it is for someone to think that your being is the most beautiful being they've ever encountered, that it can transcend even their sexual desires because they've just found that there's this weight in gold in just a soul. I'm thinking about how it's really important to you, Jacob, as we've discussed, to identify

as gay and part of a community that has faced discrimination, has faced violence, has fought hard for its right to exist in this country. And at the same time, you know, in your relationship, Jacob and Samantha, you will have this ability to move through the world with the benefits of a heterosexual couple, right? Like having kids relatively easily, walking down the street without fear.

How do you two make sense of that? You know, I consider that an immense privilege, and I don't take that for granted at all, that we are what we are. We are on the surface in the world. We're a straight white couple that can just go around the world looking and presenting that way without people having to see the intricacies of what's going on. And some of the backlash we receive has even come from the queer community

where they think we're trying to threaten that or say, other people can have this dynamic and should force it or something, and we are in no way, shape, or form saying to seek out a dynamic like this. We believe we're one in a million that this can work. So, you know, any marginalized community that has something come in that's out of their definition of who they are and what they've had to defend themselves to be in this world, they're gonna feel defensive about it. And whether it's a straight conservative being like,

no, I know that getting married to a woman and being a Christian and doing those things, like that's the right way, that's worked for me so well. And so many other people and a gay person will say, no, like I know being with a man and being gay, expressing that, that works for me and does so well. Like we all have these set definitions

we're trying to defend so that our own life can feel valid. And we're not trying to threaten anybody, we're trying to add to the conversation and say, we're here too. to the conversation and say, we're here too. You know. What do you want people to understand about your relationship? You want to?

I think in the most simplest terms, it's just a true love story of two people who fell in love with one another for all of the right reasons. This love happened, it really was kind of a love at first sight thing. And it should be easy, the origins of it all should be easy. If there's ever any work involved,

it's just the natural work involved in a relationship. But when you know, you know. And we want people to know that love just can be that simple. Yeah. And I think just for me, it's being open and honest about your feelings is always the right answer. And that will guide you to peace and tranquility and stable relationships and all of that thing that we're all hoping to attain.

And me finding my truth and being able to speak it is, which was really the issue. It wasn't finding it, it was being able to talk about it, gave me peace. And don't worry about the rejection. Jacob and Samantha, thank you so much for sharing your love story with us. I'm really grateful. Thank you. I'm really grateful. Thank you. Thank you. This episode of Modern Love was produced by Emily Lang.

It's edited by our executive producer, Jen Poyant. Production management by Christina Josa. The Modern Love theme music is by Dan Powell. Original music by Rowan Niemesto. This episode was mixed by Daniel Ramirez with studio support from Maddy Masiello and Nick Pitman. Special thanks to Mahima Chablani, Jeffrey Miranda, and Paula Schumann. The Modern Love column is edited by Daniel Jones.

Mia Lee is the editor of Modern Love Projects. If you want to submit an essay or a tiny love story to the New York Times, we've got the instructions in our show notes. I'm Anna Martin. Thanks for listening.