The Daily - ‘Modern Love’: Where Did All My Male Friendships Go?

Episode Date: August 17, 2025

Sam Graham-Felsen never imagined being lonely. Throughout his childhood and as a young man his life revolved around his friends. But when Sam got married and then had kids, going out with his friends almost felt like a luxury. After years of focusing on everything in his life except friendship, Sam began to realize he was missing something essential, and he decided to get his friends back.On this episode of “Modern Love,” Mr. Graham-Felsen describes how he went from being a boy with a wealth of deep friendships to finding himself feeling lonely as an adult, and what he did to bring friendship back into his life.Read his essay “Where Have All My Deep Male Friendships Gone?” in The New York Times Magazine.Find new episodes of Modern Love every Wednesday. Follow the show wherever you get your podcasts: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | Amazon Music | YouTube |iHeartRadio Unlock full access to New York Times podcasts and explore everything from politics to pop culture. Subscribe today at nytimes.com/podcasts or on Apple Podcasts and Spotify.

Hey, everyone, it's Rachel. As you know, every Sunday this summer, we've been bringing you episodes of our colleague's show Modern Love. We're doing that for just a couple more weeks, and for this week, our host, Anna Martin, is here to tell us what's on the show. Hi, Anna. Hey, Rachel. So tell me, what do you have for us this week? Yeah, Rachel, I wonder what comes to mind when I say these two words. All right, here we go.

Male loneliness. Men get lonely? I know. It's crazy, right? But no, but in all seriousness, certainly I feel like the societal-wide problem of being lonely has certainly grown as a concern, at least in my periphery. Absolutely same. Yeah. And specifically for men, there's actually data that backs up this idea of increasing male loneliness. There's a survey I'm thinking of from last year that showed that 15% of men reported having zero close friends, like no close friends. That's five times higher than surveys from 1990. so men have less friends these days. That is really genuinely quite sad.

It is sad. And it's one thing to hear those statistics, but this week I talked to someone who realized he was actually becoming a statistic. I talked to the writer Sam Graham Felsen. He wrote about his experience, his loneliness ultimately for The New York Times Magazine. Sam has this very moving, very sweet story

about growing up with all of these close friendships with other boys, other youths, young men. But then when he reached adulthood, sort of looking around and realizing he was deeply, deeply, lonely. But the thing about Sam that I find so inspiring, really, is that he decided to do something about it. I'm really excited for you to hear this story. I'm excited to hear it, too, Anna. Thank you so much. And everyone, here's this week's episode of Modern Love. Love now and... Love now. Love was stronger than anything.

And I love you more than anything. There's to love. Love. From the New York Times, I'm Anna Martin. This is Modern Love. This week, I'm talking to the writer Sam Graham Felsen. He just wrote a piece for the New York Times magazine called Where Have All My Deep Male Friendships Gone? It wasn't like one day I woke up and was like, oh my God, I'm lonely. But it was kind of like that. But I always thought like, oh, well, that's something that applies to. other guys, because I have a million friends. I can't imagine ever feeling lonely. And then, like, sometime in my 30s, and I'm like, wait a minute, I think I'm actually

kind of feeling lonely. You know, my wife is a wonderful person, the best listener ever. That's why I fell in love with her in the first place. But, like, at a certain point, she's basically like, dude, just go hang out with your friends. Just call them and hang out with them. And I'm like, you're right, you're right. of course, then I didn't call them and hang out with them. And I did every single thing except for hang out with my friends.

Sam told me it felt difficult to just go hang out with his friends again. And to try to understand why it felt so hard, he decided to write about it. And full disclosure, his wife's an editor at the magazine. I was like, look, if I'm going to write a whole thing about how, you know, I somehow let myself slip into loneliness to, despite having a wealth of, you know, close friendships, I feel like I owe it to myself to try to actually do something about it. I wanted to know what Sam did to get his friends back into his life,

what it meant for a sense of well-being, and how it changed what he thought it meant to be a man. Here's our conversation. Sam Graham Felson, welcome to Modern Love. so much for having me. So we're here to talk about this piece you wrote for the New York Times Magazine. It's called Where Have All My Deep Male Friendships Gone? And we'll get into your story, but I want to start by asking, had you felt lonely before? Had you felt this kind of, or was this a new? It was totally new. I mean, you know, my whole life, until, you know, I became lonely,

I saw myself as an extrovert. And one of my problems, like, when I was younger, was, like, over-obligating myself and making too many plans and then having to cancel on friends and having them get mad at me. And, you know, from a young age, I remember I found my report card from fourth grade and my teacher, it's really funny that teachers wrote stuff like this back then. She was like, you know, Sam, he, you know, he's way too much of a social butterfly. I fear I may have to clip his wings. Oh, my God.

Yeah, yeah. First of all, what? I know. She literally wrote that. And, but that's who I was. What did friendship mean to you when you were that social butterfly in fourth grade? Fourth grade was when I really remember having a friendship that was so intense. It almost felt like falling in love.

There was a boy named Andrew in my class who he was the first kid who I had ever seen comb his hair and put like gel in his hair. Oh my God, that's cool. Like before that it was just like everyone woke up with bedhead and went, at least the boys did, went to school with, like, crazy bedhead, you know, like Alexander's horrible, no good day. And that was, that was me. And, and, and then, like, you know, there was this kid who, you know, put gel in his hair, and he had these t-shirts called hypercolor, where if you blew on them, they changed color. Okay, hang on. This was a thing in the early 90s. And he had a swatch watch. And I remember like, he was. He was. And by man, I mean boy. He was. Yes, but I remember

vividly, like, I had no concept of what was fashion, what was cool, or anything like that. And I remember seeing this kid and I was like, this guy, I want to be like this guy. And it ended up being this thing where I felt like I was at his house every single day after school. Right. Right. We were just like hanging out constantly. We, it's funny, I hadn't thought about this in years, but we had this thing that we called the Babe Olympics where, where, like, both of us had a crush on Christina Applegate from married with children or whatever, and Jennifer Connolly from the Rocketeer. And we would create these wacky competitions where the winner, you know, got to go on some fictional date with Jennifer Connolly or whatever. So like some of it would be sports like playing

one-on-one basketball, but like some of it would be like, who can drink, you know, the most water in one minute or, you know, like these absurd competitions. And I just remember being absorbed in his world, introducing him to my world. And I just remember laughing all the time. I mean, but what you're saying is, in addition to the worlds, you know, of him introducing you to his interest, right, his world, you introducing him to your interest. You are creating, as you're saying, the world of your relationship, right? And I want to go back.

You said this was a friendship, the first one with this guy, Andrew, right, where it felt akin to falling in love. And you're so young. But do you remember, like, can you tell me more about that connection? Was it like, I want to be with this guy all the time? I trust this guy. Like, what was behind that? Yeah.

So the reason why I compare it to falling in love is because, like, I know what it's like to fall in love. I fell in love with my wife very quickly. And I remember just that feeling of like nine out of ten of my thoughts are about this person, you know? And all I want to do is hang out with this person. And I can't wait until the school day is over so that I have time with this guy, you know, to go do our things. thing and make, you know, prank calls to... Babe Olympics. And go back to the Babe Olympics for around 900 of the Babe Olympics.

And it was also the feeling of, like, jealousy, frankly. Like, if he was hanging out with other people, I started to be like, well, does he like those people more than me? And actually, like, what ended our friendship was that he got a girlfriend. And that was, like, totally devastating. And it's an interesting kind of like echo of what happens later in life when people get married and end up sidelining their friends. But he completely sidelined me after he got a girlfriend. I remember one day, like...

And that was when? In middle school? That was in seventh grade. Okay. And I remember one day, you know, he wasn't, you know, answering my calls or whatever. So I just showed up at his door and I was like, hey, what's going on? Why aren't we? You know, let's hang out.

and his girlfriend was there unbeknownst to me and he literally, it was like out of a movie he did the thing where he shut the door in my face and he's like, go away. Wow, wait, stop. What did that feel like? Horrible. It was akin to being dumped.

Yeah. I do remember, like, walking home, he lived probably like a seven-minute walk from my house and I lived on a hill. And I remember just like walking home up that damn hill and my legs would always be so tired when I was a kid walking up this hill and just like feeling

like each step was like heavy. And the reason why it was so hard is because, yeah, again, like the degree of closeness I felt with these friends was almost like, it almost felt like being in a monogamous relationship. You're articulating a feeling that I think is, that I resonate with. And yeah, I'm curious if like other people in your school or whatever saw that intense connection, what do they think of it? How is it perceived, do you think?

I think at that point, we were young enough that the homophobia stuff hadn't started to really, like, you know, creep up yet. But certainly, like, by the time I was in seventh grade, eighth grade, and beyond, like, it was totally, it was constant hearing people make homophobic kind of, like, insults. And, you know, some of it was teasing. Some of it was, like, worse than teasing. Right. Because people saw, like, you know, how close I was to some of my male friends. People used to call me Sam Gay. And, you know, who is this guy with, like, who's so obsessed with his male friends?

Like, let's call him gay, you know? So, like, all of that stuff. But I remember, like, at one point, there used to be this thing called a slam book where it was basically like a proto, social media where it was those old composition notebooks with the marble black and white cover someone would would create one of these things and they would write a name on each page of the notebook and it would it would just float around school and people would write anonymously whatever they thought about that person wow it is a physical it's a burn book I mean this is a reference to mean girls I think but yeah and I remember like seeing in that

Byrne book, in the slam book, somebody, you know, wrote, Sam and Rob, like, are swinging on each other's nuts like Tarzan. Rob was, like, you know, one of my closest friends. Tell me how you and Rob met. He plays a really big part in the piece you wrote. I think I was in sixth grade. I was 10 or 11. There was a kid who had invited me to a sleepover birthday party.

I hated going to sleep over birthday parties. I'm really laying it all out on the line here It's totally endearing I'm like I get it But like I hated going to these parties Because all the boys like to watch horror movies And I hated horror movies And literally like a month before

I had just been to another sleepover party Where they had shown this movie called Child Play 2 Which is so stupid And I'm like how could I have thought this movie was scary But it's basically like this doll who is possessed by a demon and then ends up stabbing everybody with a butcher knife.

To be honest, that sounds terrifying. Okay. But anyway, that's the movie they were watching. And there wasn't like another room that it could go into. So I just like, I found his phone and I called my mom

and I was like, I'm sick, can you come pick me up? And, you know, I, like, you know, I'm sure they could tell I wasn't sick. And it was totally embarrassing. And I remember crying in the car because I was so embarrassed, but I was also like, thank God I can go home. You know, so anyway, so I really didn't want to go to the sleepover party.

And, you know, it's like probably 11 p.m. Like, we'd eaten tons of pizza, made your own, make your own ice cream sundaes. And then everyone, like, goes into the den in his house to start watching a movie. And before they even picked the movie, I'm just like, I got to get out of here. Like, I started panicking. And this other kid at the party, his name was Rob, was like, you know what, I don't feel like watching movies. Like, I just feel like playing, you know, Nintendo in the other room. And I was like, oh, that's, that's my, that's my opportunity, right?

Totally. So I just followed him in there. And he was playing a game called Final Fantasy. And I still remember it because it was, it was like the seminal moment in my life. And he's like, dude, do you want to play? Like, I've been playing for a while. I'm like, no, no, no, no, do your thing. Like, I, you know.

And by the way, my parents were hippies and, like, we didn't have video games. I didn't even know how to play. I was just happy to watch him. And I don't even remember what we talked about, but we stayed up all night. And I remember really connecting to him, but also just feeling like he saved me. And I don't know if he was conscious that he'd done it, but I felt that he had saved me. and I felt this overwhelming gratitude towards him. And I quickly realized this guy is like unlike anyone I've ever hung out with before.

He was really into, like, philosophy. Like, he was really into... It's young to be into philosophy. It was young to be into philosophy. He also had similar interests, like we both were obsessed with the Boston Celtics and things like that. But he was intellectually and morally serious in a way that, like, none of my other friends were at that age. And I just remember, like, thing, like, wow, this guy is operating on another level, and I want to be a part of that level.

I was really concerned with being cool, right? Like, I was very concerned with, you know, trying to fit in. And he was the opposite. like he he he was wearing cackies literally nobody wore cackies except for him and he looked like an old man and i was just so impressed of like this guy doesn't care about being cool i care deeply but i wish i was the kind of person who didn't care about being cool and that was part of the world that i wanted to enter into was like his his his world of like just being a an individual you know and i wasn't quite an individual yet and and he helped me to become an individual

You know, you're doing something, I think, is very difficult, which is describing why you love someone. Yeah. I mean, I wonder, you're having all of these, you're spending so much time with him, you're learning from him. What do you feel like you were learning about friendship at this point? I think, I think Rob helped me see that, like, a friendship can be as serious emotionally as a romantic relationship it can be as serious emotionally as a family kinship it's a big deal but i i think the other thing i just learned from these intense friendships is like like i i was having the time of my damn life you know like i was really did not like school uh and all i could think about

was either after school or the summer when I could spend all day, you know, playing basketball with my friends and chatting with them late into the night. They made me happy. They feel good. Yeah, that's the thing I learned most from it. It's just like it feels good to be with other people. And it's, you know, it's funny that I have to like spell that out now because it's like something I have to tell myself. Before it was just intuitive. Dude, it feels good to hang out with other dudes. I honestly feel like emotional

when I hear you say I'm having the time of my damn life. It's putting me back to places. It's like it's so joyful and fulfilling and your friends are the center of your world

and not only that you know that you're the center of theirs. I wonder, were you talking about feelings with Rob or with other friends? Like, were you going

deeper on that level? It's a good question. I definitely like most men who I've met and talked to historically have found it difficult to talk about feelings, particularly with other men. So I would say like the answer is yes, but I would say like it would start with talking about something in a more abstract way like a moral dilemma. What I remember is it was always, like, late in the night, just me and this other friend. I'll use Rob as an example. We'd be hanging out, watch a funny movie, right?

Eventually we get into bed around midnight or whatever. I'm, like, lying on the cot on the floor. And we're joking around, and I guess the first stage of the arc is, like, the joking around, the second stage, maybe, you know, talking about the girls we want to kiss or whatever. And I think it's important to say it's dark. It's like you're not looking at each other. I actually do think that's important, right?

Because it's like... It's almost like being in therapy where you're like lying on a couch, looking up at the ceiling, right? You're not looking at each other. You're both lying in bed. Yeah. And just as one is starting to doze off,

the other one's like, by the way, like, there's one other thing I want to talk about. And then it goes on for another hour, right? Totally. So I remember it would be like after talking about a lot of other stuff, then feeling like loose enough that's when we would talk about, you know, the heavier, more emotional things, but, like, you know, insecurities and the things that I felt bad about myself, like, wishing that, I don't know, like, it sounds trivial, but, like, wishing that I were better at sports, like. Would you ever say I love you to your friends?

No. Mm-hmm. No. Mm-hmm. No, and, I mean, even now, like, I would like to be. be able to say that but and I say that once in a blue moon but like it's something that um I struggle to do and like my wife says she loves her friends all the time it's not hard for her but yeah no no we wouldn't we wouldn't say that um did you have like a way that you

expressed your love for one another if not in words you know there wasn't like hugging there wasn't like uh certainly wasn't like holding hands hugging any of any of that kind of stuff it was because there was still this consciousness of like, you know, the burn book that you mentioned, yeah. You don't want anyone to perceive you as being something other than friends at that age, you know? So even in private, you're going to sit a little bit further away on the couch

than you need to. So yeah, that's just how it was. But it seems like you knew. You knew that there was a deep friendship and, in fact, a love there between you all. Yeah, and the reason why, again, I think of it as love is, like, just the amount of mental space these close friends occupied.

Yeah. It was really, like, spending a lot of time thinking, like, would Petey like this, you know, song? Would Benny like this pizza place that I just discovered? You know, like, just constantly thinking, Like, in terms of my relationships, what can I share with a friend, you know, when can I next see this friend? Yeah. Did you think you'd be friends with these guys forever?

Yeah, yeah. When we come back, what happened to Sam's friendships? Stay with us. So Sam, I really want to dig into what happened after college because I imagine it wasn't like you graduated college and then all of a sudden, you know, your friendships did. disappeared, but something did change clearly as you got older, more into adulthood. What were your friendships like in sort of your mid-20s after you left, after you graduated college? Immediately after college, they were amazing because I was single living in New York.

So I had various apartments that I shared with different friends. And that was like, you know, basically an extension of college because it was. was, you know, staying up super late every night, often, you know, with beers or weed or whatever, probably both, and tons of takeout. That was terrible for us. And, you know, just, I remember, like, again, having the time in my life in my early 20s after college. Like, and it was, like, somewhere around, like, 25, 26 that things began to shift. That was, like, when a lot of my friends and me started to be like, well, we need to get our shit together, right? There was like, it was like this moment.

I know exactly, but, yeah, it's to get your shit together years. Exactly. So, like, that started happening. You know, I had friends who were going to law school, friends who were going to med school. So this thing started happening where everyone's getting their shit together. People are, like, leaving New York. Yeah. So that starts to happen.

And then the bigger thing, of course, the biggest thing, I would say. is people started, their relationships started to get more and more serious. So I had a girlfriend in college, and we decided to move in together. So now I'm going from, like, living with friends to living with my romantic partner. And with friends, for the most part, like, you know, you don't really have to, like, check in with them about anything. do whatever the hell you want, right? Also, like, with friends, it's like none of the dishes are getting done and we're both slabs and like we don't care. But like, when you're in a romantic thing, it's like, all right, now you got to take the chores more seriously. You have to like,

you're really sharing a space and like building a home with somebody. And, you know, so you're, you're running your plans by, by your partner. So little by little, you move in with your partner. you are going out less because you already are with your partner. And like a big part of going out is like, oh, well, maybe I'll meet the person tonight, you know, at the bar or whatever. And you don't have that anymore. There's less of a drive, yeah. And, you know, when you're with, like, you know, the love of your life and you can see them whenever you want, this idea starts to creep in, well, like, what do I even need my friends for? Like, I got everything right here, right?

I have, like, somebody who I love to talk to, I also get to do other stuff with them. Exactly, right. And it's all in the same package and, you know. Can I pause you on just before that? It's like, when this was happening, this moving in with your partner who becomes, or your girlfriend, rather, who becomes your wife, and this sort of slowly, I don't want to say, like the friendships becoming less and less central to your life, maybe less and less of a priority, were you aware of that? I was definitely aware of it because some of my friends were giving me grief about it. Oh, look at Sam. Like, you know, now that he's got, you know, he lives with his girlfriend.

Like, he doesn't have time for us anymore. You know, that kind of thing. I was, I mean, the honest truth is that at the time, I didn't consciously miss my friends that much. I was so excited about being with my romantic partner and, like, so focused on, like, trying to crush shit and getting my shit together, all that stuff. of, I wasn't really, if anything, like, I was annoyed at my friends for guilt-tripping me. I'm like, just get over it, dude. And, i.e., like, get your own girlfriend and, like, leave me alone, right? I didn't literally say that, but I was thinking something along those lines.

Becoming mature involved getting a romantic partner and, like, not goofing around with your friends. Like, you're not really a man unless. to you, like, stop hanging out with your friends. Or, like, hone in, yeah, or hone in on this person who you love. I mean, it's making me think about how, you know, we sort of talk about this on the show, but it's like you were getting all these different things from different people earlier on in your life. You're getting fun from your friends and emotional support from, you know, this guy and basketball with this other guy. And then it's like, it's just sort of your focus narrows.

And you meet this romantic partner who you love, you love deeply. and sort of the emotional and the physical and the fun gets narrowed to sort of one person. Does that feel accurate? It's like you're putting so much on this romantic relationship that friendship kind of seemed like a distraction. It's almost what I'm hearing you say? Yes. They almost felt like a luxury. Like it's like, okay, if I spend two straight weeks not going out, eating healthy, not boozing late into the night, and being a nice partner, then I'll indulge.

It's almost like having junk food or something, right? Yeah, yeah. Where was Rob during all this? Like, when you were moving in with your romantic partner, what was happening with him? Were you guys in touch? So Rob also moved to New York City and after college. At a certain point, he moved back to Boston. And we were still communicating on the phone and writing each other these, like, long emails.

Like, we write each other like three or four or five thousand. word emails. Wow. Whoa. Yeah. And some of them were really emotionally mature in a surprising way. You know, I was really hurt by this thing that you did. You know, I don't feel like you, you fully accounted for the way that you hurt me. Here's what my experience was. Wow. And then writing back, I hear that, but, you know, stuff like, stuff that is way more mature than like the way that I now interact with my male friends. But we were still. still doing that into our mid-twenties. And no one sends emails like that anymore because now we're all just, you know, doing what obviously everyone does is WhatsApping each other and, you know, short little things. But, but yeah, so Rob was, Rob was in Boston. And, yeah, at that point, like, many of my best friends had dispersed by then. And then life continues to happen. Tell me, tell me what came next. then get married congratulations thank you marriage is

just like the relationship thing but on steroids because you're like well now I'm married so like I mean of course there are no like actual rules saying well you can't go see your friends now that you're married but there's this internalized idea

it's like well you know now that you're a husband you should be you should be spending a lot more time at home and not out with your friends. Where did you learn that from? Like, where were you, who or what, or where were you getting that message from? I'm just curious. I think the best way I can answer that is that it was,

it was just vibes. It was like vibes that come down from years and years and years of watching movies and TV shows and all kinds of messages about like, this is what a boy does and this is what a man does. And a grown man who continues to, like, hang out with his friends is a man child, right? Yeah. A grown man is supposed to be at home with his wife or out there crushing it making a lot of money so he can be the breadwinner and bring home a lot.

You know, that's the kind of message over and over and over you're getting from these various, like, cultural inputs, right? Like, this is the way it's supposed to be. and then having kids all of a sudden now you actually are insanely busy right i mean i say right like i know but have not any kids yet you get it yeah you're insanely busy for the first time in your life you you you actually truly cannot do whatever the hell you want right you you kind can't do whatever you want when you're married because it's rude to your partner but like if you do whatever you want when you have a kid like the kid will starve and die right like you can't You know, the thing I was not prepared for among many things was, like, just the amount of dishes and laundry that I was doing.

Just like endless amounts of cleaning up. And then you're not sleeping for years. Sorry to scare you off from having kids. No, it's good. That's good to hear. You quickly, well, I say you get used to. You don't get used to it. So you really do have less time to hang out with your friends at that point.

But what ended up happening was I was saying no to friends more or just like not reaching out to friends as much because I was genuinely swamped and I was tired and I didn't want to go out of the night. I wanted to try to get a good night's sleep or whatever, right? But the part where it started to get truly corrosive to my friendships was, okay, things start getting a little bit easier with the kids. Like they get sleep trained.

Now I'm sleeping better. I'm in more of a routine where I know how to do the laundry faster and, like, I do have a little bit more free time in my hands. But, uh-oh, it's been months since I hung out with a friend. Do I even know how to hang out with a friend anymore? What are we even going to talk about? Okay, that's what I want to focus on.

It's like, was there a moment where you kind of looked up amidst the blur of children and obligations, all these legitimate things, of course, and said, like, oh, my God, It's been months since I've seen Rob or insert other friend here. Like, how did that realization come to you? And what did it feel like? Well, I started joking around with my wife.

You know, look at me. I'm, like, becoming one of these cliche data points of, like, the lonely American male. But it was still kind of a joke that I didn't quite take seriously. And then at a certain point, I just started feeling like, oh, wait a second, this is actually a problem. Like many, many new parents, I was arguing, you know, with my wife about our kids, you know, and like who did the late, you know, who did less of this responsibility and who is owed more of this. And it was, it was exactly the kind of emotional moment in my life that I really should have reached out to other friends who were going through the exact same thing that I was going through. Because I had other friends who had kids pretty much at the exact same time as I did. And I wasn't reaching out to them.

I just, I wasn't, I had no one to, especially if, like, my wife and I were in a place where, you know, we had just gotten into an argument or something like, what am I going to do? Just, like, talk to my wife about how hard it was that I got into an argument? Let's take that sort of example. Would you, like, go to your phone and think about texting or calling a friend and then just be like, I mean, like, take me through that thought process. What would you do? I mean, it's funny. I would, like, go to my phone, be like, I'm going to text my friend and see, you know, if he's around to talk. And then, like, I would be like, ah, do I really want to get into it?

And then I'd be like, ah, like, do I really want to, like, impose my whining on my friend who's also got his own shit going on and, like, you know, you know what? oh look there's a new episode of this podcast click and then I end up listening to a podcast and I just ended up listening to a tremendous number of podcasts instead of calling friends that is that is actually like it feels like the most cliched thing ever but that is actually what happened to me tell me what show what shows you were turning to what were you listening to instead of calling a friend so I started out actually listening to like podcasts about meditation because I had heard that meditation was good for you and like when you have small kids certainly yeah and um and then like you know uh started going I I wouldn't call it a rabbit hole

but I you know I started like eventually like I started listening to the Joe Rogan experience because he just has had everyone on his show and he's talking for like four and a half hours yeah yeah he's talking for a long long long time but um but you know like he'd have astrophysicists on his show. He'd have Michael Pollan, whose book I had just read and really wanted to hear more from Michael Paulin on his show. He had this Stanford professor talking about dopamine and addiction science. And, you know, so I would listen to his shows just to, you know, try to pick up, you know,

whatever, life hacks or whatever. Totally. And, you know, again, the reason I'm doing this is because, like, I'm feeling overwhelmed, lonely, all of these feelings. And instead of relating to, you know, other people and calling a friend, I'm like, well, I can just solve these problems on my own. I'll just listen to some podcasts and I'll get the answers from the podcast. Yeah. I can do this all on my own. Yeah. I mean, it's this kind of rogue self-sufficiency, right? Like, I'm not feeling so good emotionally or whatever. And I want to address this, but, you know, I'm going to fix this myself by listening and learning and working on myself.

There was something in the Rogan thing that appealed to me, which was basically like, stop making excuses, man up, you know, I'm using that in air quotes, but like man up, and basically the easiest thing

you could do right now to change your life, all of these podcasts said this. Go work out. Go work out. Stop, get out of your head, pump some goddamn iron. Yeah. You know, and they all said this.

And I was like, like, oh, that's interesting. Like, maybe I should try that, you know? Like, if you just take care of your body, not only you're going to get healthier, but like everything else in your life is going to fall into place. Yeah. I think in a way, part of the reason why it appealed so much because it's like, I knew that even though it's really hard to like exercise all the time and, you know,

lift heavy weights, I knew that on some level it was easier than doing deep emotional work. So I was like, well, all right, I'll just try that. And it was like, what was I doing in my late 30s and early 40s? Every spare moment I had, I was exercising. I was going to CrossFit. I was running outside in Prospect Park through freezing cold rain. Because, you know, I had this idea like, well, at least if I'm doing this, I'll, you know, I'll be able to like basically conquer whatever lonely feelings I'm having. Wow.

Yeah. And so. Physical sublimation. Yes. And it was the idea, basically, that, like, life was to be crushed, not to be enjoyed. I mean, and it also is a, it's a solitary. It's like, go and lift this thing. And then when that gets easy, lift it heavier.

The power is within you to change you. And it's still very, like, individual-focused intrapersonal. So I can see why it would appeal. I mean, I guess I wonder, like, was this a conscious choice on your? and to turn, like, towards these podcasts or working out or whatever, instead of friends? Like, were you aware that you were diverting sort of in that way? I don't think I was aware of it. I think I was still telling myself, you know, you don't have time for friends because

you're so busy. I was also in denial about being lonely. right? I just knew that I felt bad and I wanted to feel good. And I was like, oh, well, if I exercise, I'll feel good. And I did feel good temporarily. There were the endorphins that they promised me what happened. They came. Totally. I think that's a really important point. And I really think that there is still something very icky and, like, we're allergic to self-identifying as lonely because it's very vulnerable to admit that not only to yourself, but also out loud. So first of all, thanks for saying that. But I understand why it would be shielded in these layers of, I'm not the kind of person that gets lonely. And also, like, look, there's this whole thing in the culture of the in-cell, right? The involuntary celibate.

Totally. The lonely guy sitting in his mom's basement on his computer. Like, that's the stereotype of the lonely man. And I think every man who feels lonely is, like, terrified of being grouped in with that. So interesting. Yeah. It's like if I admit that I'm lonely, then, you know, are people going to think I'm some kind of in-sell freak or whatever? Yeah.

So I think that's a part of it. And you're going to use every adjective except for lonely. What were you afraid of in calling, you know, when you went to call a friend and then diverted to the podcast? What were you worried would happen? Like, what was stopping you? I was afraid that my friends would think that I was needy. I'm not like a bro. I grew up with like a super, in a super feminist household.

Even I had so deeply internalized the idea that showing weakness as a man is tantamount to not being a man. And I just didn't want to not be a man. Yeah. I was afraid that if I called and said, hey, man, like, I'm really lonely and it makes me sad to be alone. And, you know, I just needed to tell you that. I was afraid that they'd be like, oh, God, that's so soft. Like, are you kidding me? Because, you know, again, I've been conditioned to think that basically, like, the main ways to relate to other dudes, unless it's 4 a.m.

And you've been warming up a lot at a sleepover party. Right. And the main way of just, like, emoting generally as a man, I find, like, there are two modes that are acceptable, kidding around and anger, right? Like, you're allowed to fight other dudes, but you're not allowed to hug a dude. So either I'm allowed to be angry or I'm allowed to joke around. So if I call my friend and I'm just sincere in talking about, like, the sadness in my heart or whatever, is he going to think that I'm like, you know, I could use many different derogatory ways to say less of a man. That's so interesting, and I really appreciate you laying it out.

But, you know, I'm thinking about how you talked about when you were younger. You had all these deeply emotional conversations with your friends. I'm thinking specifically about those emails. You and Rob sent to each other. You said that Rob was one of your closest friends. Were you in touch with him at all? Like, how would your relationship change over the years? At this point, Rob is doing a postdoc fellowship in North Carolina.

So even further away than Boston, obviously. I am mostly communicating with Rob through basically like a group email chat that we've had going now for like almost 20 years. And so I'm communicating with him and other friends through this. through this group chat, calling him less and less and less over the years, a subset of this email list, they're like kind of what we like to call caucuses in the email list. There's the fitness caucus, the guys who like have a little side group chat. And there was a bike trip group. I actually like was one of the people that initiated this group. And I said, let's do a bike trip, you know, once a year. And that bike trip continued for many, many years,

but I stopped going on it. I had kids and, you know, I made all the excuses why I was too busy. And once my life started to stabilize a little bit when my kids got a little bit older, I told myself, like, I'm really going to go on the bike trip this year. And I would tell the biking group, I'm coming this year, I'm coming this year.

And then I would, like, flake out at the last second and be like, sorry, guys, I can't do it. And then, like, in 2021, I was like, I'm definitely going this year. You know what? Like I have like really at this point sideline my friendships to like a degree that is like just way, it's gone way too far. You could even recognize. Yeah.

So it was like it was Christmas break and I met up with basically the crew that goes on this bike trip at a bar in Boston. And a lot of these guys were guys who had gone every year for the past decade. And I hadn't been on one for like eight years. And I basically kept trying to bring up the bike trip proactively because I really wanted to demonstrate I'm coming this year. Right. I know I flaked out in the past, but I'm coming this year. And Rob basically was like, yeah, whatever, you're not coming. Like, you always say you're going to come and you never come.

And one thing led to another, and he brought up. a particularly egregious example of when I had flaked out on this trip on the bike trip but rob brought this up yeah and it was just like you know like like you never fully accounted for what a dick move that was frankly and then I started getting defensive I'm like why are you bringing up some shit that happened nearly a decade ago like you know I'm in my 40s now like you know like yes it was kind of a dick it was definitely a dick move let's just talk about the little logistics of this biking trip. Can we please? Can we just talk about this trip? And eventually one thing led to another and like the words got more and more heated. And I am not a violent

person. In fact, like I have actually never been in a fight in my entire life. And I don't know if it was like listening to too much of the Joe Rogan stuff or whatever. But like I just said to him at one point, I said he was getting really close to my face. And I said, I said, if he don't get the fuck out of my face, I'm going to knock every fucking one of your teeth out. Whoa. And I meant it. I was so mad. And I've never said anything like that in my entire life.

And this was something I was saying to, like, my dear, beloved, one of my oldest friends, my most beloved friends. And it got broken up by the other guys before anything led to actual blows. We went our separate ways. And, like, I was really pissed. Can I ask you? Yeah. When you were, like, leaving the bar, you were angry, sure. Were you embarrassed?

Were you sad? Like, what were the emotions in your brain immediately after? I mean, the emotions immediately after were just anger at him. Mm-hmm. Because it was easier to feel angry than to feel emotions, right? It was easier for me to just be like, it's all his fault. Like, he picked a fight with me for no reason. He's bringing up some shit from a decade ago.

You know, what's wrong with this guy? Yeah. I mean, truth, truth be told, like, there was a point in which I was like, you know what, fuck it. I don't need to be friends with this guy anymore. Wow. Yeah. Like, but just looking back and I'm like, I can't believe that that thought even crossed my mind. But it was like, it was actually easier for me to just move on and not be friends than to like have a heart-to-heart conversation about the feelings that were involved in that exchange.

I understand that. And, yeah. And that's when I started reflecting on like. the fact that I hadn't gone on any trip for eight years. And I started just thinking more and more, like, about how much I had deprioritized friendship, and then how much I had, as a result of years of deprioritizing friendship, how much I had gotten accustomed to being alone and almost being intimidated by the idea of, like, trying to rekindle my friendships.

And so I would say, like, that fight was the real, precipitating moment where I was like, I have made every other thing that is supposedly good for your mental health a priority. Like, I've done all of the things. I don't drink alcohol anymore. I exercise. I meditate. I was in therapy.

And yet, I didn't do the number one most important thing, which was to hang out with real people in person and prioritize friendship. And I think that was like the tipping point for me where I was just like, I I have to try to change it. When we come back, Sam takes steps to reconnect with his friends. That's next. So you have this moment, you have this fight, and it sounds extremely, it sounds clarifying for you. Like, I need to make a change.

And I've maybe needed to make one for a while, but I'm going to be brave and try to make this change. What did that look like? Like, how did you try to start to re-prioritize and re-center friendship in your life? And also, did you go on the bike trip? The bike trip that year ended up not happening. And I think in part because of that ugly experience at the bar. Yeah. But what did it look like when I started addressing it?

It's funny, you know, I found a podcast. Not podcast. Come on, Sam, we. But this was a totally different kind of podcast. This podcast has a very explicit purpose. The podcast is called Man of the Year. It has a very explicit purpose, which is to offer advice to men who are struggling with loneliness. Okay.

Well, sometimes you find exactly the right thing for you. Yeah. And I needed to hear it set out loud in like very sort of like bro plain language, right? So like one of the things that that really resonated with me was be the friend. Be the friend means like don't wait for the other guy to call. you just call and ask them to hang out right yeah and and the the beautiful thing about listening to this show is that like it's easy for guys to listen to who are not into the touchy-feely stuff of like you know get deep inside your vulnerability and this instead they're just like all right

guys guys guys it's very simple here's some life hacks all right here's some hacks for friendship all right? TCS, okay? It stands for text weekly. Text weekly. Call monthly and see quarterly. Whoa, TCS. So all you have to do is see your friends four times a year, call them once a month and text them once a week.

And like that's all you have to do. You set it in your reminders and it's like, and then because it's in your reminders, you just have to do it. You know, so that was like one of the more kind of hack-based tips that they gave that I did kind of find helpful. Yeah. And essentially, this is the antidote to my fear of seeming needy or weak or whiny or whatever.

And by the way, once I started calling my friends and, you know, it turns out, gee, who would have thought? They're totally willing to talk about emotions. Like, men do want to emotionally connect. Yeah. Like, no one has been like, bro, like, sorry, I don't talk about sadness, bro. I only talk about sports. Sorry. Do you remember, like, an early phone call or even an early hangout?

Were you nervous? Like, you were reentering this place you hadn't been. Yeah. There was a specific friend who was one of my college roommates, a guy who had lived abroad for a long time and we fell kind of out of touch, who moved back to the city and, you know, lived not that far from me. And yet I still, and I love this guy, but, like, I still. hadn't seen him, you know, in a really, really long time, even though he now lived near me. I'm making the effort. And then he's like, all right, well, you know, there's this concert that I want to go to in Greenwich Village.

And I'm like, okay, all right. Like, I really don't actually want to go because I'm, like, nervous because I'm out of practice, basically having, you know, being a friend. Like, are we going to have nothing to talk about? going to feel forced, whatever. And it's the winter, and I'm like, oh, it's going to be, like, it was like slushy on the ground. I'm like, I have to take the train all the way in. So I didn't really want to go. Right. But again, because like, I'm, I'm now like, you know what, you're making an effort to do this. You're going to, you're going to go, you know, do it, man. You know, I had to, like, psych myself up. And, um, and I, and I go. And, of course, it's totally easy and natural.

Did it feel forced? Not at all. It's totally easy and natural. I'm, like, asking him stuff about his work that I've never asked him before. And then, like, I started to tell him a little bit about, like, the struggles that I'd had in this period where I was, where I was, like, feeling lonely. And also, like, like, my loneliness was definitely affecting my creativity. And because I was in the creative dumps, like, it made me even less wanting to hang out with people because I was like, well, I don't want to drag them down because I have writer's block or whatever.

And I started to tell them about all that stuff. Wait, hold on. That just, like, a big deal for you to say that out loud. to someone. That's not your wife. Like, that feels big to show that with another guy. And you know what's funny, though? Like, it didn't, it didn't actually feel hard to do it. And he was just like, listen, man, like, this is your creative person. Like, this is part of the path. And we all struggle. And, like, it's totally, it's okay that you were struggling. It was so nice to hear. And we had such a great night. Like, we had, like, enormous, like, ice cream

cones at Van Lewin with like way too. It was like way too many scoops of ice cream. And he orders the waffle cone. I'm like, all right, I'm getting the waffle cone too. So we got the biggest ice creams ever. We go to this concert. It was such a great concert. We knew all the words, like all the words came back to us.

I really didn't want the night to end, but like it was getting close to the midnight train. I literally had to get on that train and I was going to be like stuck in the city. And I remember calling my wife. I remember saying like, I just had like the best night ever. She's like, well, what happened? What did you? Why was it so great?

I was like, I don't know. Just like, it was just so great. And I like, I kept saying these general things. But it was the very act of just like being with this old beloved friend. Yeah. And even just getting like a little bit of validation and even just sharing a little bit of emotional stuff that just felt like so good. I remember like having this feeling. being on the train, looking out of the window,

and, like, seeing the, like, blur of the lights, almost looking, like, you know, ribbons of light. And I just, like, remember this feeling of, like, I'm standing in front of a door that is, that felt like it was closed for so long, and now the door is open. And I can see through the door. And, like, on the other side of the door

are like my friends and they're like waiting they're waiting for me to come hang out and like all i have to do is be the friend and like call them and go hang out and um and i and i and i remember like feeling really emotional like having that image in my mind and thinking like um how did i how did i let myself go for so many years without connecting to all these people who I love. And like, how did I convince myself that that was like the right path after years of really grinding and like, you know, doing like insane amounts of exercise that didn't make me feel any less lonely after after so long of that, like, finally, like, realizing, like, oh, this is it. This is, this is the answer. Like, all I have to do is hang out more. And, like, nothing, nothing has ever worked

in terms of making me feel happy. Like, like, being with the friends that I love and being in community. And, like, this is the miracle cure. Where's Rob? How are you two now? How did you walk through the door with him? We did exchange some, we exchanged some heartfelt emails. And then eventually we got on the phone and had what I was worried was going to be a really awkward, really hard conversation and was a totally wonderful conversation. And I really, like, it was the kind of thing where I could have stayed on the phone for 10 hours and I just had to get off because I was late to dinner and everyone was waiting for me. after that call it is just it it's i already feel so much closer to him um you have your friend back yeah yeah yeah it does feel like that to me i hope it feels like that to him too we'll send this

podcast you've mentioned you've a son right yeah have you talked about friendship with your son I think a lot about how to, how do I raise a boy who won't be limited in the way that I was. It's hard because I watch movies with him. Like I've been introducing him to some of my favorite movies from when I was a kid. Like one of my favorite movies was Bill and Ted's Excellent Adventure, which... Great movie. It's a friendship. It's a buddy comedy, and I showed that to my son because, like, part of what I love about that movie is that I think it models, like, what male friendship can be like?

Like, they have all kinds of shared lingo and they have shared hand motions and, you know, and I'm watching that movie with him. And there's this moment that was, like, really discordant where it appears that Ted has been murdered by one of these knights that's been chasing them. And Bill stumbles upon his body, and he's like, oh, my God, like, Ted, what, no, please, like, this can't be. And, like, he's, like, freaking out. And then, like, a second later, Ted emerges from a side door and it's like, I'm still alive. And then Bill is, like, relieved and overjoyed. And he's like, oh, my God, like, I thought you were dead and you're alive. This is the best moment ever.

And they hug and they're like, you know, he, like, nestles his chin into, you know, Ted's neck. And they're like, you know, it's a moment of love. Yeah. It's a moment of love between two friends. and, you know, they hug for like a second and then they like get startled and pull away and they look at each other and they say a word that I'm not going to say

because it's an ugly word, but it's a word that starts with F you know, that is a derogatory term. Oh my gosh. And I'm watching, though, my son, and he was confused by that. He was like, what happened there? And I just, I didn't want to explain it to him.

But it was like, like, that's how I guess, got to the point where I alienated myself from my friendships. Like, it's stuff like that, which, you know, my son, like, I'm sure that my son got the kind of message that, like, you're not really supposed to get too close to your male friends. If you're a guy, like, you can't get that close because that could mean something, you know. And it was right around that time that. You know, my daughter, who's a couple years younger, you know, was talking about how she wanted to marry her best friend all the time. And my son was like, yeah, I want to marry, you know, my best friend, too.

And he used to say, like, I love you to this friend. And he used to always give a long hug and say, like, I love you. I can't wait to see you again. And I remember asking him, do you, you know, do you still want to mention? marry that friend, and then he's like, nah, like, because I don't want him to think I'm suss. And I didn't even know that he knew the word suss, but, and I just was like so heartbroken by that because I felt like he should be able to say he loves his friend. And if my daughter is allowed to say that she wants to marry her friend, and that's not, there's no stigma

around that at all. Like, why can't my son say that too? Can I ask you? Yeah. Can you say I love you to your friend and do you now? I have said it more and more. I used to not be able to say it at all, and now I do say it. And I still kind of say it fast. I'm like, I love you, man, love you, right at the end of the phone call.

But I say it. And it does feel good to say it. And I'm working on saying it a little bit slower. And I would love to be able to, like, look my friend in the eye and say, hey, man, I love you. Thanks for, you know, thanks for, like, coming out tonight. I really love you. Like, I'd love to be able to do that.

I'm not quite the Jedi yet. Can I say? Yeah. I think you're going to get there. I hope so. I know you're going to get there. All right. Well, you're giving me some confidence.

I'm going to try it. Sam Graham Felsen. Thank you so much. Thank you for this conversation. Thanks. Thanks for having me. Thanks for listening, everyone. Like we said at the top,

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