The Daily - Olivia Rodrigo Tried Writing Love Songs. Then Life Got Messy.

Episode Date: May 31, 2026

Olivia Rodrigo sat down with Joe and Jon for her first in-depth conversation about her new album, “you seem pretty sad for a girl so in love,” out June 12. She discussed the many ways her creative process intersects with the extracurricular noise of pop superstardom, whether its managing relationship drama; being targeted for the way she dresses, accusations of pilfering songwriting gestures from Taylor Swift, her onetime idol, or her willingness to speak up about political and social causes in a way many of her peers won’t. Subscribe today at nytimes.com/podcasts or on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. You can also subscribe via your favorite podcast app here https://www.nytimes.com/activate-access/audio?source=podcatcher. For more podcasts and narrated articles, download The New York Times app at nytimes.com/app. Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

Hey, it's Michael. Today, we're going to do something a little bit different. We're going to hand our show over to our colleagues at Popcast, The Times Pop Culture Show. It's hosted by music critic John Caramanica and culture reporter Joe Koscarelli. You've heard both of them on the Daily before talking about Bad Bunny's Super Bowl performance, not to mention Joe's interview with Taylor Swift, which was featured in our episode a few weeks ago about the 30 greatest living American songwriters, except, of course, for Billy Joel, who got snubbed. The big news is that Popcast will now be coming out every week

as both an audio and video show, featuring some of the biggest names in music and culture, like Aesap Rocky, Anne Hathaway, Rosalia, and many more. We love what Popcast is doing, and we want to share it with you. So take a listen to John and Joe's recent, an interview with the singer Olivia Rodriguez about her new album, her songwriting process, and her thoughts about speaking out about politics. You can find podcast every Thursday at n.Ytimes.com slash podcast at YouTube.com slash podcast or wherever you get your podcasts.

Okay. Enjoy the show. I actually don't think I've ever really done a podcast before, too. I think this is my... True. I've never, like, sat down and done, like, a two-hour conversation thing. All right. We'll get comfy. Yeah, I'm comfy. Yeah, I'm comfy.

Yeah, cross those arms. Uncross those arms. Like, real loose. Real loose. Everyone take a deep breath. Young Lean taught us how to do breath work. Erica Badu taught us how to do breath work. I would trust Erica Badu with my life.

We did fire breathing with her. Oh, wow. Sometimes that makes me more. I didn't want to tell Eric for that. They have, like, crazy ones in yoga. We were like, and I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, hyperventilating now. This sucks.

Go time. Let's do it. Yes. You're waiting in my whole life. Yes, exactly. Thank you. That's the attitude. Welcome to the New York Times Popcast. You are bedroom of Versailles of weekly culture chat. I'm John Caramonica.

I'm the critic. I am Joe Coscarelli. I'm the reporter. I'm Ovir Rodriguez and I'm on Popcats. Finally. Thank God. Thank you. God. I love you guys. I love this show. It's very exciting. And as we said to you just

I'm going to go truly on our 1.0 mood board having you here. We're extremely thrilled that you're here. What a special day, truly. For me as well, I really appreciate all the work you guys do, and I love all of your opinions. Certainly not. I don't know. I don't hear that. I love that they are true, informed, conscious opinions.

They are thought through. They're not to agree with all of them. That's not how criticism works. Not how criticism works. Thank you. Will you tell your friends? All of them. Just put it in the group chat.

Critics are loud. Yeah. Yeah. You don't need much introduction, but Olivia Rodrigo, the Grammy-winning artist, singer-songwriter, behind four now number one hits. Most recently, Drop Dead from her new album. You seem pretty sad for a girl so in love out June 12th very soon. Starting in 2021, Olivia burst on the scene with driver's license.

a smash that was the most obvious. You might have been my first interview for that too. I remember. I think that happened. We did Diary of a Song. Wait, so you're second semester, senior year, and you just released your first single. Yeah, first semester.

Yep, not even second. I'm like dying over here. We knew you were going to have, I think, a long and special career. Before that, Olivia was known for her work on Disney, first on Bizarth Vark. Shout out to Bazaard Vark. Shout out on Bazaar.

If you haven't seen it, someday you'll have kids and maybe you'll see it. It's really having a resurgence though. Is that true? People will stop me in the street and they're like, oh my god, I'm like, oh yeah, I make music. They're like, I love bizarre. They're like, that's weird.

That's weird. That's amazing. The music stuff comes after for them. They don't care about that. High school, musical, the musical, the series. Incredible. Incredible. Long, long titles here.

Truly an incredible title. Yes. It would be insane to think I might actually have shot at playing Your first two albums, Sour and Guts, mixed pop punk fury with devastating balladry. That's sort of been your magical formula up to this point. You're swerving yet again on this album. We're going to get into it. We're going to talk about the new work and so much more.

So you are, it's about to get very intense. You're in, the roll up is rolling. Yeah. We're coming up to album release. We had the opportunity to go. to S&L a couple weeks ago. Wait, I feel like you should also tell the viewers about how you corrected the script. Wow.

Okay. You're ready. You're ready. You know. You want to go there? Okay. Good. So we will tell that story.

Okay. So we got to watch you host and perform S&L. I know it's been, it was a dream to do that. I wonder if you can just talk a little bit about that experience and then we'll talk about our uncredited, our uncredited assist. Fact check. Right. And credit.

Yeah. No, it was so much fun. I have been dreaming about hosting and performing on SNL forever. I'm such a huge fan of everything that they do. I think just artistically, it's a real feat that they manage to pull that off every week. And even if like sometimes you're like, oh, that sketch wasn't my favorite, it's still just so astounding that they're able to do something that high quality week after week. The work that they put in is insane. Getting to like witness that up close was really, really inspiring. We were blown away. It's insane. Like the way that they work that just they're, they're so. such a family. They love each other so much. They get along. They're so devoted to this common mission and cause. I think that's why it works. I think people were like kind of iffy about it. The show would fall apart. But everyone is just so steadfast in their desire to make the best show possible. And it's just really inspiring from an artistic standpoint, like whether or not you're like into comedy or not. That was my exact experience because I'm not traditionally a huge SNL fan. And I've been there during the week with artists doing some reporting, et cetera. But I'd never

seen a full show. So we were at the dress rehearsal and we were sitting in the balcony and just watching the behind the scenes of how many people it takes, the sets, the movements. You guys did an amazing stunt where it looked like people were falling down the stairs, the way they did that. I think they posted some behind the scenes on SNL. You very gamely, literally dove it, literally did your own stunts on SNL. But the thing you were alluding to is that the final skit we saw in dress rehearsal was you and Veronica in the backseat of an Uber and the driver breaks out into patois. Yeah, into a Jamaican patois, rap.

Dum-de-d-d-d-de-di-d-d-d-d-dum. Girl, Jopo-Bun make me mind explorer. And in the early version of the script we saw, they had you referring to what he was doing as reggaeton. Right. And John and I... And we're sitting... Joe and I are sitting right and actually show that. And like immediately we're just like...

So... And then at the end we're sort of like... Do we tell someone? Like, do we say something? We didn't want to see you get flamed on the internet for it. Like... You guys think so. You saved me.

So we managed to relay the message that it was probably the word they were looking for was either dance hall or... Reggae or Jamaica or... Jamaica dance hall. And then when I woke up the next morning, the first thing I got served on Instagram was that skit. on social and I was like, oh no, oh no. And then I saw the subtitles and that said.

Okay, but you like started aggressively singing a Jamaican dance hall song like really loud. Hell yeah. Jamaican dance hall. You guys saved the day. I wasn't going to bring it up. I'm glad I'm going to. That's how the sausage gets made. That's how the sausage gets made.

We're fact-checking all the music from here on out. Yes, yes. That is the one of the big ten-pole moments of the next few weeks, you being on SNL. and we have been able to hear your album and live with it for a little while. And by the time when this comes out, it's still going to be a little bit before people. But we can talk about it. We have some details. We'll give some gems out.

A little teaser. A little teaser. So this album, to me, strikes me as a chronological, structured mini narrative about the rise plateau, high plateau, and then collapse of a relationship. I'm curious from a writing perspective, are you writing those things in real time as the experiences are happening? Yeah. For the most part, it was, it is chronological

and in the order in which it happened in my life. And it's the first time that's like happened. And I think it was really interesting for me creatively to structure it that way. But I've never been a person who's like, I'm going to make a concept record. And it's all going to be this. And it's going to be this way and sound this way

and look this way. like I write songs to like process my feeling so every day when I like come and like I sit at the piano or I get the guitar I go into the studio it's like what does what is like burning in me to say right now yeah I think it just like all comes from the heart and I think it's not super like calculated in that way and so um so they sort of aggregated in a way like you were writing songs and then you took a step back and said huh yeah it is kind of like boom boom boom yeah exactly but I'm really happy with the way it turned out and I think Dan and I, like, sort of like, after writing breakup songs and stuff, we, like, had the fun challenge of going back and, like, actually tweaking some of the love songs are on the record and making them a little more honest and more sad and creepy. Like the song, it was originally a love song. Which feels like a big turning point on the album. It's like six songs and it's purple and it's like, that's when, like, the doubt creeps in and then the cure. It's like you flip the record and it's the cure and that's sort of like the unraveling, as we say, of this narrative. So yeah, I was really happy with the way that it turned out.

And sort of after the fact, we've already written like the first, like, maybe six songs of the record and writing the more like sad sort of decomposed songs on the record. We kind of like post-mortem kind of went in and changed things and sort of made it a whole body of work rather than, you know, like little moments. Is there a specific line or stanza in one of the first songs that you remember being like, okay, I really need to reframe this. I really need to deepen this. Is there something that sticks in your mind? Yeah, I mean, like the honeybee lyric, like having honeybee, honeybee, honeybee is one of my favorite songs on the record and then having it also tying it back into the last song, I think was really nice for me to just sort of made it feel more.

Like, I don't think that it's a, it's not a concept album. I think that's doing a disservice to actual concept albums, but I think it's like a capsule. Yeah, sure. And so like little things like that are changing purple or putting that little honeybee thing kind of towards the end of the process, I mean, we feel like, okay, it's really an album now and it's really telling this like one story. I would go so far as to call it a concept album. You think? The narrative is so tight. Like what is good kid mad city? If not a song,

if not an album with a beginning and an end. Sure. And then you come back to the beginning. Like the fact that Drop Dead, the opening track is like essentially before the first date and leading into the early excitement and butterflies of a relationship and falling in love. And one of the things I really like is there's different slices of what happiness in a relationship look like. Yeah. As you say, there's these little moments of doubt that start to creep in. When did you realize that you had an ending?

Because if you're writing this in real time, presumably you were as, you know, floating on air as you were in some of these early tracks, like where did you think the album could end if stayed in that zone. Yeah. That's a good question. I mean, I think I always knew that I didn't want it to be like even stupid song to me. I was really inspired by this book Simple Passion by Annie R&O. It's like this she's having this affair with this person and she's not quite happy. She's kind of just going insane like everything she does. She's reminded of this person. The longing like overcomes her. And I was like really, I was really inspired by just all of the ways in which love makes you insane and miserable. You know what I mean? I think that there's a lot more

there's a lot more to mind there than just like, yay! Everything's great. Oh my God, he's so hot, he loves me, that's everything. Right. And so I was always kind of curious about trying to like mind these more depressing feelings out of these love songs. I think initially I thought that that was what the record was going to be, just all love songs, but trying to inject some sadness into them. And then obviously sadness in a real kind of more whole way crept its way into the end. I guess when I started making it, I didn't know how it was going to end.

And I think that's how I always start all the records. Totally. And you talk about the destabilizing nature of love. And there's a song like maggots for brains, you know, which you have mentioned previously that multiple songs in this album were inspired by Miranda and Steve from Sex and the City. And I knew that going in before I heard it. And that was one of the songs where I'm like, this is a very Miranda song, this idea that she's like, you know, my brain is mush, basically. Is that a Miranda sentiment? Yeah, it's from the scene where Miranda is getting back together with Steve,

and she's like, whenever something funny happens, I always want to tell you about it. Anytime something funny happens, I want to tell you. And it's one of the lyrics in the second verse. But yeah, that's one of my favorite songs on the record. I really love it. I think when we made that one, like, sonically, I was like, oh, yeah, like, this feels right. And this feels like the point in time that I'm out. I think I kind of knew, and Dan and I who I made the record with, like, I think,

I like love rock music and I have such a reverence for rock music and it's all that I like really listen to. But I think going into it I felt like a little like it wasn't, it didn't feel exciting to me or something. Like rock in the traditional sense of like power chords, like distortion, blah, blah. That's not here on the song. That's not here on the song. Yeah. But I think the song like that feels like alternative to me without being like, I love rock and roll by Joan Jett, which is one of my favorite songs. I love that song.

But like, you know, it was an in. subtle way and that was more exciting to me than writing like some like really banger thing which maybe i love those songs maybe i'll do that later but i think like making that song was like okay this is the i kind of like figured out what i like wanted the sound to be a little bit or like what was going to be different about this record um it's interesting to hear you talk about those that style of rock not being as much of a draw as it was in the prior two albums because obviously there are certain moments on this album that are really living in like the 802 to 85 world. You're sort of getting the new romantics. You're getting the cure. You're getting maybe a little talking heads. I wrote

Devo down at one point. Some new order. Yeah. But what does that sound and style signal to you that the pop punk and the sort of chords that you've been playing with previously don't signal? Yeah, it just felt more exciting. There was something about the restraint of it that felt nice. or I was just really obsessed with that type of music too while I was making it. I did Gossombury with Robert Smith, which was insane. I'd always been a fan of The Cure, but since meeting him and like getting to hang out with him, I kind of went back and listened to all those like new wave

bands like that. And I was living in England at the time. So obviously you get a lot of like English band inspo. For me, in songwriting, the sentiment always comes first. And so I knew that I wanted to write songs about how it felt to be in love. and love feels like that to me. It kind of feels like that vibe. Like that just the emotional quality of it.

I can't describe it. It's just like that's how it felt. It didn't feel like, like, you know what I mean? You also used, I think, a clever trick where you connect the new wave of the 80s with music influenced by New Wave, I think. Like there's some songs on here that sound like La Tigra,

instead of bikini kill, you know, both Catholic bands, but different sides of that. be a fan, Kathleen Hannah? Of course. Of course. You know. Shout to Kathleen Hannah. I had a thought when listening to my way that there's like some no doubt in there. Yeah, for sure. I know you're a big return of Saturn girl. And you mentioned the cure who spanned both of those arrows who continued making music through that. And they are a through line through the album. You allude to just like heaven and drop dead, the first song.

Then there's a song called The Cura, which will be the next song that people hear from the album, that comes after Purple in the track list, and that's the moment where you say, you're punning obviously on the band title in some ways, but you say, Buff's not fixing me. It's not, it's not the beyond the end. Can you talk a little bit about the writing of The Cure and what that song means to the album's story? I think that song is the thesis statement of the album. You seem pretty sad for a girl's own love. I remember making that song and feeling so excited. like, okay, I know what I'm like trying to say with this thing. I love that song so much.

It makes me like emotional to listen to it now. All the pretty girls in the foreground of my mind. I thought it's done enough, but they keep moving the line. I was on my couch and I played the chords and I wrote the verse lyrics and thought that that it was really interesting and brought it to Dan and we finish it together. and yeah, it just means so much to me. I think that that was a realization that I had, and you can only have when you're in a real, like, a real, like, big girl relationship.

I think that for so long, when I was younger, I was always, like, reaching for something. I was like, oh, if I have this, then I'll be happier. If I have this thing in my, even in my career, I'll be happier. If I, like, have this guy and he loves me the way I always thought he would love me, like, I'll feel better about myself. And, you know, slowly throughout the course of my life and this relationship that I'm talking about, I kind of just realize that the issues that you have aren't just going to be solved by some other person. Like something can distract you, but it, like, it, and also, like, they're your issues.

Yeah, they're your issues. Yeah. I also even think that falling in love actually makes those issues even clearer to you. I think that's why it's so important. Like, some of my friends are like, well, I'm not going to marry them. I'm like, why would I, you know, be in this relationship with them? I'm like, it's like the way that you know yourself the most in this world. Like, you could, you know yourself so deeply and so intimately by like,

falling for people and being raw and gross and like making mistakes. And I think that that's such a thing that's unique to being in a romantic relationship. And so I think I was also figuring that out. I think I was in a romantic relationship that was actually real and intimate for the first time and being like, whoa, this is holding a mirror to me and I'm seeing shit that I don't like about myself. And that was a tough realization. And I think that that's embedded in the QR2.

And yeah, I really love the song. It's one of my favorite songs I've ever written. I think it's. Also, in the context. of the album, you know, where it sits, you know, just after the middle, but it's long, you're lingering on it. It's like, it's like you're telegraphing something just simply by saying you're going to have to sit with this for five or six minutes. Like, it's, like, that's, you're coding the meaning in the lyrics, but you're also coding it in the structure, it feels like.

Yeah, yeah. I think that that's sort of like the apex of the album too. Like, I think in all the love songs leading up to it, like, there's a hint of like maybe this or dissatisfaction. I'm like, oh, I really miss them and that's why I'm sad or blah, blah, blah. And I think when it gets to the cure, it's like the most honest. part where like all the artifice is stripped away and it's I love a song obviously I mean I love writing like a power ballot that like really builds but um like when I finish listening to it it feels like it's some sort of like catharsis or like some sort of acceptance of like that this is your fate how do you know as a songwriter when something is worth writing a song about and especially

I mean look I haven't been 20th in my 20s for at least a few years four or five years but I I vividly remember the intensity of feeling. I remember the dynamism of being really up and then really down and then going back to how you felt a week earlier and kind of like the instability of that. And if you're experiencing feelings quite intensely and you have a creative outlet for it, what takes it from something that's in here to like, damn, I got to I got to get this out. Is there a specific intensity of feeling? Is it a detail? How do you know? Yeah, it's a good question. No, I think you really, every time is different.

I'm a big, like, quantity of a quality songwriter. I write all the time about lots of things. And then sometimes you stumble upon something that's good. I really don't know. There's not like a, like, I'm never like, oh, I have an idea and it's going to be an awesome idea. You can just have to like mind. You're not stingy about it. No, I'm not stingy about it.

I have some friends who are the opposite and who, like, write five songs here and they're the best five songs you've ever heard. I write like 250 songs that are the worst and then I write like three songs that I love. But I just love the process of writing. I love being alone and like playing my guitar or like writing things down. It's like so much fun for me. I think I know if I've like stumbled upon something good if I really want to listen to it like a week after I write it. Okay. Or if it makes me feel like, oh yeah, that is how I was feeling and that's a really clear, concise way of saying it.

But I don't know. It's different every time. And you're working it out in the room as well. Like you have your step in the process. Then you bring it in with Dan and then. Sort of. I'm sure there's things that don't make it past that. I mean, like, meetings change so much. Even, like, you guys listening to the album, like, I listened to some of the mixes before we sent it to you guys.

And it's like, even, like, a month after making it, it just feels so different in your body. Like, you just have totally different associations with it. And I don't know. There's no signs behind it. I'm still figuring it out. I don't know. You mentioned the ugly sides of even being in love. And one of them that you touch on on this album.

in what I think is an interesting way is jealousy and being territorial, which is something that has been present in your earlier music, but not, as you say, from the vantage of a big girl relationship. This song, My Way, that I mentioned earlier, strays a little from the central relationship narrative. And I thought you make a pretty direct choice to target it at another woman in the tradition of, great songs like Jolene or misery business or better than revenge.

And given your standing among young women and how important of a songwriter you are to your audience, did that feel like a risk to write a song that pointed where you call yourself a petty bit? Yeah. You know what? I haven't given it so much thought. I think I was just really in the heat of the moment writing it. And that's how it is. And sometimes you're like, I really need to get this out.

and I'm fucking pissed and maybe isn't the most evolved thing ever to say but I really loved the song and I love the way it turned out and I love the sonics I was going through like some Gwen Stefani vibes in there I got it, no doubt. Oh, I did.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. No pun in time. Send no doubt. No doubt. But yeah, I really love that song. The album isn't very angry at all and I think that's the one angry touchstone. But yeah, I'm really proud of it.

I stand by it. Is it okay if you're the villain? Is that okay? Whatever. I don't know. No, being serious because I think... It's fun to play that character sometimes. It is fun to play that character.

But I also think that certain songwriters and certain pop, huge pop stars, have had anxiety over the years of like, I'm known to be one style of person, but I am a complex person. I have these different sets of feelings. But sometimes they won't put it in songs. But they're like probably like two moments on this album where I was like, I think she must. might be okay with being the villain. Like, I wonder, and I wonder if you think of it in those terms. Gosh, it's a really interesting question. I've never really thought about it.

I don't know. This sounds like a cop-out, but I just, like, know who I am as a person really well, and I know my intentions and things, and I know why I write songs, and I know that I'm, like, a nice person. And, like, I'm not suggesting you're not a nice person. Yeah. No, but I think that that type of criticism only really hurts when there's like something in it that I, like, think is like a little bit true. Like if someone were to like criticize something that I was already doubting, I'd be like, oh, God, like that's the stuff that gets to me.

But I don't know. I also think that pop music in a really beautiful way, everyone is projecting their own experiences onto you. Like, that's the type of songwriting that I do. And that's, I love that type of songwriting. That's why I got into it, like, so many heroes that, like, do that type of songwriting. And so I don't take it so personally. When I listen to my favorite pop songs, I'm thinking about my experiences and, like, me in that pop song, like, and how I felt with, like, my ex-boyfriend and blah, blah, blah, blah. Like, I'm not really thinking about that person and, like, the exact specifics that they're talking about.

And people can relate to feeling angry and pissed and jealous and territorial and whatever it is. It's like that that is as valid of a feeling as what would traditionally be a good feeling. And I think the narrative will reveal itself over time. I think like whatever I think that that's out of out of my control and under my business. Fair enough. Since driver's license, one of the other things you've been praised for is your ability to drop a well-placed curse word, especially an F-bomb. You know, vampire also has a great one in its chorus. It feels like you're a little bit more sparing with it this time around.

I mentioned bitch. I think I counted two other F-bombs. There's a goddamn in there. But I thought you really saved the most impactful one. for what to me is like the defining line of the album and sort of the thesis statement outside of the cure. They say modern loves. They say modern loves a cruel endeavor.

To that I say, fuck it, whatever. Was that intentional the cutting back so it was not to consider it a crutch to really save it for those gut punch moments? Honestly, no. I remember Dan and I the other day were like doing clean versions of all the songs and we were like, damn, this would take us two days

back when we were doing this hour and this took us an hour. But, no, I think I, I think I'm just feeling less angsty these days. I don't know what it is. I think maybe I swore more as a teenager as we all do, maybe. I curse way too much, which I've only realized now that I have a two-year-old who repeats what I say. And now I'm like, oh, I really need to have a tiny-up. It's tough.

Damn, I producer has a two-year-old, too, and we hang out with her obviously a lot in the studio. She goes up to her dad the other day, and she's like, Daddy, why does Olivia say fuck so much? And I was like, see? This is what I'm trying to avoid. I was like, oh, she's got me by name. She's really funky. The other day, also, we were in the car. We, like, picked her up from school or whatever.

And I was singing along to the song in the radio, and she's, like, starts to, like, crying. She's like, Daddy, I hate it when Olivia sings. Oh, my God. And I was like, oh, no. I'm going to reconsider a lot right now. Probably because she can associate it with Daddy going to work. Yeah, that's true. Wow.

That's true. Wow. That's true. It's grim, kind of. Well, you know, like, it's. Her psychiatrist is going to. Yeah, I know. It's literally a five years of therapy down the line for that.

I can't listen to Olivia Rodp. You know, I can't. That's really, really funny. Oh, that's really, wow. The tension on this album in the arc is about trusting another person and also trusting yourself. There are so many moments on your last album where I feel like it's you singing about how vast the world has become and how challenging that it was to navigate. And how do you identify in the real world, not in art, but in the world. real world how a person is trustworthy or is a person trustworthy like what are the things that are

your either triggers or touchstones and how have those things changed over the last four or five years yeah how do you know if someone's trustworthy god that's such a hard question i don't know if i have like a profound answer that's all right this is look the podcast is at least 10% therapy yeah i know i feel that I don't know. You know my biggest red flag? It's just not profound at all. But like when I hang out with someone and they're like, Dedy gang.

Gluck, Glock, Glock, 3,000. No. I, whenever I meet someone and they're like, yeah, like a few of my friends, they just like, they just ghosted me. I don't know what happened. I'm like, mm. Calls coming from inside the house. Like that's a few.

It's like one. One maybe it's like, okay. But I don't even know. That's a real spill. That's real spill. Like having like intense. falling outs with your friends. Like, I've never really had that in my life.

I think maybe once or twice, but like when people that said repeated occurrence, sure. I'm like, hmm, interesting. Interesting. Interesting. I think friendships are like the biggest litmus test for whether or not I trust someone. I think like someone being able to hold down a long-term beautiful friendship is like the best thing that you could do. That's like you're, you have emotional depth. You could care about other people.

Yeah. And other people trust you. Other people trust you. Which is huge. Yeah. Yeah. I think friendship is a big indicator. But I don't know.

I'm still figuring out. I'm sure I'll get betrayed more in my life. Who knows? I think vampire I'm still figuring. Of course. Vampire is a really good example of trying to figure that out in real time and maybe being fooled by someone who you thought was interested in you. But then it was really after your fame or your notoriety or trying to get something from you.

I think that when I listen to that album, It's like, so interesting. When you're in it, you like can't tell what it is. But when I listen to it like these days, like, I was like rehearsing for a show the other day and like listen to all the songs back. It's just like really is like a 19 year old disillusionment with the world and just feeling like so confused. And I feel like I'm definitely less disillusioned these days. But like looking back, yeah, I was like betrayal and like finding your footing. And I think I think I did.

I remember going with the album being like, I don't want to write about like being newly famous because that sucks. And like I hate when people do that. I think that there was, hopefully, like, it was in there, like, a little tactfully sprinkled in. But I think that that was a huge part of my experience. But I don't think that it's unlike any other 19-year-old going to college. You're just, like, trusting people. You're so open. You're around all these people that you've never been around.

And you're, like, making all these mistakes and, like, figuring shit out in real time. How do you look back on guts not only artistically, but as a moment in your career? Because you talk about this pressure that comes with a sophomore album. Yeah. You know, people invoke the sophomore slump a lot in terms of. of I think exactly what you're saying, where it's like your whole life goes into your first album, then between your first and your second album, if the first one does really well, maybe the only thing you have to write about is sort of what it's like to become newly famous

and is that enough, et cetera. That album was successful on its own terms, of course, but I wonder how you look back on how it was received and how it performed and how that influence what you did on your third album. Because I was really struck by the fact that this album doesn't feel like you're searching for smash hits necessarily. It felt like you wanted to make an album, a capital A album with a beginning, middle, and end. And I wonder if any of that came from either how guts went or didn't go for you. Yeah, that's a really great question. I mean, I think it was hard. I mean, looking back, I have so much compassion myself. Like, sour, that was crazy. What happened was sour was crazy.

It was crazy. At the time, I didn't realize how crazy it was. Like, obviously I was like, wow, I'm so happy. I'm grateful. But I didn't realize that that, like, is insane. And I was 17 when it, like, all happened. It's so wild. And, like, if I were just, like, be an outsider and, like, watch that happen to something, you know, a bit, oh, my God.

Like, so, I think I couldn't, I didn't realize it at the time. But, so I have, like, a lot of compassion for myself, even after the aftermath of sour. Like, that was so much pressure. Like, how. It was so insane and just like people on the internet and like all this crazism. When you're 19, you don't know who you are in general. You don't know who your real friends are. You don't know who you want to date.

You don't know what like you really want to be doing with your life in a real concrete sense. And so it's just it was a lot. And looking back, I'm so proud of that record. I think putting it out, I felt a little like, oh, God, it's like I'm never going to make anything like as big and as good as sour and blah, blah, blah. But like looking back, I'm I'm so proud of so many of those songs. Like I think like All American Bitch is like my favorite song I've ever written. And I think like bad idea.

I remember like thinking a bad idea right at the time. It's like, it's too weird. And I'm like, I love that song so much now. Yeah, it's just having a little space totally changes your perspective on it. But yeah, I'm really proud of both of those records. Even stuff where I'm like, oh God, that song could have like I could have lived without that song. It just, you know, I don't think I'll ever regret writing honestly about where I am in in my life and I'll always have like compassion and love for.

Yeah, I was going to say, so you hear them both as art but also as documents of like the intensity of the experiences. For sure. For sure. This album feels very settled to me. Obviously, you're going through an emotional arc, but you have clarity about that emotional arc. It's not, you're not zigzagging. You're kind of like, I think I see what's happening here.

Even if what I'm seeing is bad enough. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Even if it was tough. But it's like, I see what's going on here. And does that? track with how you live off the, off the album. Like, is that when you're talking to your friends, do you feel, like, much more lucid as a assessor of the world? Yeah. Tell me about that. God, for sure. But I just think that that's growing up. It's like, it's an interesting thing

to grow up with the people who listen to my music. Like, I feel like we're kind of around the same age, like, going through the same things and just, like, the lucidity that I see things with. But it's not unique to me. Like, none of it is. So, like, I just, I think you just, you just, collect so many experiences that you kind of know yourself more and know the world more and I don't know. Every album though, I feel like I'm learning about myself but I'm also like learning how to write songs every album.

I don't think I'll ever feel like, okay, I know how to do this. Like perfect, I got this. I like I know exactly what I want this to be. Like every time I sit down to write a song, I feel like I'm learning it for the first time. And I think that that's what keeps it like exciting and fun as a creative person is like there's never. I have like tips and tricks

and I like know all the pop songwriting tricks that you're supposed to do and all that stuff but I just really feel like I'm like endlessly learning and that's what I'm so grateful that I get to do this job and just like keep being curious about stuff. One thing that I really enjoyed about this album there are two songs that are on opposite ends of the album that both feel really unadorned.

So it's like you're approaching both this part on Honeybee and then I think it's is it less on this one? Yeah, yeah. And I'm like, okay, so So there's an aesthetic choice here that's similar, but different sentiments. And I wonder how you think about the pairing of the sentiment of the emotion of the lyric with the production choices. And how do you know when it's time to deliver the restrain thing? And when it's time to be like, we're going straight to the new wave or we're going straight to the pop lines.

Yeah. Dan and I love to like throw shit at the wall. And I think also this record, the feeling of like being like intoxicated with love for. someone, it feels very rich and like orchestral and like Honeybee, there's so much in there. There's like a choir and there's a, you know, string section and there's just like beautiful like piano in it and there's just so much. It's like feels really rich. And because that's how it felt at the time. You know what I mean? That's what it felt to be in love.

I think a song like Les was added obviously later in the album making process. And I think, I think, yeah, it was us trying to practice a little bit of restraint. Yeah. We were also trying to practice a little bit of restraint with the last song and we were like, oh, it just needs to make rich. That's cigarette. That one is produced. Yeah.

A lot of production. We talked about the new wave influence here. And I wonder on these songs, on the piano ballads, essentially, what were your sonic touchstones for those versus the more upbeat songs? Yeah. I was talking to, you guys know, Wise Blood. She's so great. And she sang on SNL with me.

Yeah, we saw a huge fan. Beautiful harmonies. Beautiful. She's one of the greatest voices. She's Angelic, beautiful, wonderful person. But I was talking to her about it. And she just turned in a new record. She's like, it's so funny. I tried so much different stuff and tried to like explore so much. And you just like always go back to like what you're good at. At the end of the day, sometimes too. Which I think that there was just a part of me. I was like, I just want to write a singer, song, writer song that's like classic. And that's like sort of sort of like 12 year old Olivia. fell in love with songwriting for songs like that. And so I really liked that one. I think that was maybe the first song on the album, Honeybee. And it was like one of those ideas. It's just like at home and I like wrote the whole thing on piano and just thought like,

wow, like I feel like I really expressed something that was so hard to describe. And in the context of the album, I find it to be actually the saddest song on the album. I find it to actually be devastating, which is really, it's, you seem pretty sad for a girl so in love like to a T. It's this like it's this love song that's filled with a song. that's filled with so much hope, but also like a sort of knowing. You know, you're right, exactly. It's like, it's the music playing in the background. Very softly.

Exactly. The crashes on the other side. But, yeah. It takes me back to even pre-driver's license, your first big song for high school, musical, the series, all I want. And that's one of these very yearning, extreme piano ballads.

Who songs like that were you playing on the piano when you were 12 and 13 and a kid? Like when you wanted to just belt and yearn and feel. I'm feeling Apple. It was always my like yearner piano queen. I got really into Tori Amos while I was making guts because I felt like she was like a piano yearner, but it also felt like edgy and rock. Yeah. I love her.

Yeah, I felt punk on the piano. I was really into the Dresden dolls too. Like that was punk piano. There's something that I'll always love about just like a play. plain old piano song that I just feel like is from the heart, singer, songwriter type of vibe. Yeah. What is your guys favorite song on the record?

Can I be narcissistic? No. Yeah, of course. How do you say me plus you equals part? Yeah. How do you say that? How would you say it? I don't know.

I haven't been talking about it a lot. Probably me plus you. Me plus you. Call me plus you. I think me plus you. Or is it you plus me? It's you plus me. You plus me.

See, I don't even know. I don't even know. All right. You plus me. We'll call it U plus me. Equals. Equals graded in three, heart, something. I don't know.

We're not to do it. We're going to workshop this. The lyric is you plus me forever. Yeah. I think it's a masterpiece. Really? I really do. I wrote that in my notes.

I'm not just saying it to you. It's very cranberries to me. Love. A little six pence on the richer. It's like that, that jangly 90s. You know, I just, I think it has, it both has that line in the bridge that I mentioned earlier that I love that I think is the greatest away message on this album. You're a little too young for AIM away messages, but that's where you put the quotes that when you're

really, the Drake quotes. If there were Drake quotes at the time. That to me. And I just think it has a great build and energy. Yeah, that's far enough. How? That is that. You weren't expecting that?

That's never been anyone's favorite. You're the first person who said that to me. I'm really excited about that. What are other people's favorite? Well, I mean, I'll tell you mine, but what's yours? She said Honeybee. I love Honeybee. I also love the cure. Okay, but I'm sorry.

Respond to Joe's outlier choice. We almost cut that one from the album. Come on. Are you actually serious? Yeah. It was one of the first we made and you know how you, you just always liked the song that you made. Yeah, sure. Yeah.

You just got sick of those. Yeah. No, carve our names into the car seat leather as the owner of a very nice car. Do you know how stressful I found that line? And I was like, look, maybe in my 20s. I've seen someone scratch. If you love them that much, he'd go into leather. In my 50s, do not touch the car seat leather.

Do not do that. Yeah. I know. I'm happy you like that one. Oh, that's wild that you were thinking of even cutting. That's insane. Yeah. That's so no.

To me, okay, so begged. Yeah. You plus me, honeybee and drop dead. Okay. And begged. Wow, it's so funny. You guys give opposite answers than everyone else in my camp. That's really interesting.

What are we hearing behind the scenes? What are the hits? That's really interesting. Everyone loves the cure the most. I mean, The Cure is obviously a great song. It's a centerpiece. But when I was listening to in the context of the album, I was like, this makes the most sense in the context of the entire album because it really is connective thread from A to B.

But in these micro moments. And also, I love like, I love a wailing ass. Hell yeah. I love a wailing, you know. But like even the turn of phrase, I mean, you know, I wrote down a bunch of different lurks, even the turn of phrase on begged, nothing's quite enough when I know that to get it, I begged. And just the sophistication of that sentiment, the understanding that just because you may have

gotten something, it doesn't mean that it was the thing that you thought you were chasing. And the fact that you actually might be respond, like, you might have invented the salute, like you might have invented it out of thin air and it wasn't actually real because you were sort of forcing it. Yeah. Yeah. Like incredibly sophisticated thought process. Yeah, I think that's a difference also between like an album like sour and this album.

Like when you're in a relationship that's deeper and you're older and it's more nuanced, it's less like, fuck you for doing this to me. Like it's like, oh, I think that song was like, oh yeah, this happened because I set this up and like you fell short. But I didn't really, you never promised that you were going to do that. And like it's like a, it's definitely more nuanced take than I feel like I had the emotional capacity to write about before. Sure. And so, yeah, that song is, that song is really special to me. That it's very, yeah, I found it to be very savvy, like, just like very emotionally savvy. And I think, you know, like obviously as people who cover music extensively and just like, I feel like, you know,

you feel like you get to a point where you're like, I've heard every metaphor. I've heard every detail. And then someone has a turn of phrase and you're like, oh, I can hear that one. So this was, that was a great moment for me. I'm interested in your development as a lyricist and how has your lyric writing changed between albums two and three versus between albums one and two. I think honestly, the, the challenge for me was in writing a love song. Like, I think that was a daunting task for me, someone who was very known for writing breakup songs and being angry and sad. And people love that. And there obviously is that weird, like, singers curse thing where you're like, do people only like me when I'm sad?

You know what I mean? And so that was, I think that was the challenges, are they trying to write something about being happy and also making it interesting. And also I think it was just like a thing that I wanted to prove to myself that I didn't have to be miserable to write a song that I liked. Did you used to think that happy songs were like less valid than sad songs?

I mean, when I was a teenager, for sure. Like when you're a teenager, that's the shit that you listen to because you're so depressed. You know what I mean? But I love, I mean, as I get older, I think like writing a beautiful love song. Some of them, my favorite love songs

are fucking devastating. Like love song by The Cure It's like, however far away, I always love you, however long I say. Kill me. That's so sad and so beautiful. Yeah. It was just me trying to write lyrics in a more mature way about love that weren't so black and white, you know? Like, all of these things can exist at once.

You can be in love and also feel insecure and you can be in love and also feel depressed and you can, you know, break up with someone and still love that. Like, you know what I mean? Like, all of these things can be true at once. And I think obviously it's a teenager, you don't have the... emotional like capacity to really internalize that. And so obviously it wasn't reflected in the albums. But so I think that that was the challenge lyrically.

Do you look forward to the day when you can look back at this album and this time in your life and say, oh, 24 year olds also maybe don't know that much about themselves or the world? Like are you, is that, is that, like, is that exciting to you that eventually even like this where you do feel? I'm going to be like, I'm so stupid and naive. No. I mean, like it's that. Do you think, do you think, do you think like that? I know. I can't believe.

I'm not trying to call you out. I'm just like the way you look at your teenage years now, like you will, whether it's in your 30s or 40s or later, you'll probably look at your 20s similarly. Like, is that something you look forward to that self-knowledge? Hell yeah. I'm so excited about it. It's a really interesting thing to have so much of your emotional, whatever, like, chronicles. It's insane. I can't even imagine. It's very weird. All I have is blogs and tweets and articles.

There's a lot there, though. But not to the level of detail that you do. And the fact that all of those feelings along the way of yours have meant so much to other people that they will live on long beyond when you stop feeling them. Yeah. Yeah. It's really beautiful. It's a very unique job you have. It's a very unique thing. I'm very, very lucky.

I still to this day don't always understand how I like. got so lucky. Like, and that sounds like I'm, like, I think I'm, like, trying to demean myself. I think I'm talented and I work hard, but, like, going to a show and, like, looking out into the audience and seeing all of these, like, girls who are, like, nine years old, like, crying to these songs and it's so deeply touches them and is so clearly, like, affecting their life in a way that I could have never, ever imagined. It's just such a, it's a really, really wild thing that I feel, like, really privileged to be

able to do it. I don't really know how it has. I can't, I'm not, like, masterminding it. It just is like this beautiful human connection. And I just feel so lucky that I get it in such a potent form in my job. And I just feel very, very grateful. And I hope that I can keep being a positive thing in girls' lives like that. It's something that I think about.

Speaking of that audience and the platform that you have, I think one thing that separates your generation of pop star, even from the one that immediately precedes it, is like your comfort being explicitly political and using that stage to, speak to young impressionable fans who care about what you say. You know, you memorably spoke out when Rovi Wade was overturned. You've since come out against ICE. You've spoken about Gaza. Have you received any pushback behind the scenes, anybody telling you that that's a risk to your business to use that stage and the audience you have to espouse what are in this day and age,

sometimes controversial views? Honestly, I feel like I'm surrounded with people who are very like-minded, and I really appreciate that. No one has ever been like, don't do that, no. And I always say, like, I am, I really try to stay educated on things. Like, I make a conscious effort to try my very best because I think that's important for everyone. But I don't know everything.

I couldn't list a bunch of statistics about things. I'm not like a geopolitical scientist. Like, but I'm an artist and like what I do for my job is like, this is how I feel. and I present it to people. And, like, I think it would just be disingenuous to be, like, I don't feel heartbroken about what's going on in Gaza. You know what I mean? Like, that's just, like, as an artist, I feel like that's just what you do.

And that's my job. But I don't know. I also feel really weird taking credit being like, yeah, I'm so, like, I always feel like I could be doing more and saying more and stuff like that. So it's a, you know, I don't know. Was it something, like that sort of purity of purpose and desire to speak your truth in a variety of ways, whether it's emotional or social, political. Is that something that comes from your household?

Is it something that comes from, you know, did something where you're around a bunch of people in your teenage years who really encourage that in you? Like, if you sort of trace it back to its origin, where do you think that it came from? Because you've been doing it, this isn't something you arrived at this year. This is something you've been doing for basically the entire time that you've been very famous. And usually that's exactly the stretch time that people don't do it. So what do you think was happening to you in the years prior to that that gave you the sort of sense of self to be able to do that? Yeah, that's a really interesting question.

Honestly, it's going to make me emotional, but my parents are awesome and my parents never made me feel like stupid for saying something or never made me feel like I was being too much or too emotional or oversharing. And I think I grew up in a household where like me being outspoken and performing and saying what I believe in and like being ambitious was like just so supported. And I think my parents, I have the most wonderful parents in the world. I was a child actor, which is really crazy because my parents are like the least stage parent-te parents you've ever met in your whole life. But it just like bred, I think, a sense of like ambition in me and like wanting to express myself and like do things and hopefully be a positive like influence on something or someone. I don't know.

But I don't know. I think I, I, oh, that to them. They really always made me feel like I could do anything or say what was on my mind. without, you know, feeling ashamed. And so there is, in your mind, like, a moral component to being an artist. If you're going to be a person who has a voice, who has sway, who has influence, you think that some degree of responsibility kind of comes with that. Yeah, I think it's just a job.

I don't even know if I would say, like, it's your responsibility to, like, step up, but I just think it's like it's the same way that I talk about how I'm sad about a breakup on her song. It's like the same, it's the same thing. It's the same emotion. It's just, like, maybe expressed in a different medium. Most recently, there were some Internet's text. effective work, as there always is, around you, people claiming that you liked a post about protesting the Met Gala.

Enjoy your damn gala. Did you not attend for moral and political reasons, or is that an overreed? Oh, gosh. I just, I'm not really a fashion girl. Really? I'm not a fashion girl. I just say, also can I just say, candidly, many people who attend the Met Gala are not fashion people, and you know who you are.

And I know who you are. Go on. Gosh, how do I choose my words wisely? I just, it, it, I think, I think I've, this is my third album. I think that I, I don't feel like I need to do things that don't, like, I, like, bring me joy or inspire me or, or feel me or feel aligned with my, like, values or something like that. Like I, it's just, it's not like as fun or exciting anymore.

Like, what's fun or exciting is like, talk to me, you guys are making a song that I really love or like making a music video that I think is cool. Right. You can say no. You're at the point in your career where you can say no to things. You can be a little more discerning. And I think that that's cool. And I, I, um. And not a setback.

Like it's, because I know in the first waves of fame, you're just like, I want to say yes to everything. Like I may never come again. Yeah. Like literally like, there are doors behind the doors. I didn't even know where doors that I can open. But now that you've seen. the doors. Yeah.

There's just, don't, like, play a doors. Yeah, I mean, and it's, it's sometimes as fun and sometimes it's exciting, but sometimes, I just, I don't know. I feel like what's really fun and cool is, like, making stuff that I like and hanging out with my friends who really know me. I don't know. It's just not, not supercompanyiaries, I suppose. Speaking of internet detective work, there is a lot of sort of public speculation

about your relationship with Taylor. Ongoing speculation that the Disney alum and the heiress tour performer are not in friendly terms. Taylor was retroactively credited on one of Olivia. biggest hits Deja Vu, due to an apparent interpolation of Taylor's song, Cruel Summer. You're at a Paul McCartney concert in Los Angeles, and you guys were walking out at the same time, and then there's people on the internet being like, are they facing each other? Are they facing it? I wonder how stuff like that strikes you, given that I imagine you know how you feel

and you know the state of play. How do you view that layer of scrutiny? Yeah. I don't know. I don't really, like, read too far into it. I think it like comes to the territory and it's part of the course. And I think if I dove into every internet detective sleuth that like got things right or wrong about my life or any of my relationship, I think I just go crazy. Like there's just not enough time in the day.

Yeah. I think maybe it started at such a high level for you around driver's license, that anything after that? For sure. You were like, you went through it. You went through people trying to figure out who is this song about and why. and was that nice to get that out of the way early? Maybe it wasn't nice to go through. I do think so.

I think it made me feel detached from it. I had to detach from it in order to literally be okay. It was just such a crazy experience for everyone involved. And I think I just had to learn to detach. And I think that that's something that I hopefully am good at these days still trying to detach from people who like don't know every little detail of my life. I think you just have to. Otherwise, you just go kind of crazy.

I also think there can be value in someone like you, setting the record straight or saying what you really feel about something when people are trying to guess how you feel. You know, one of the other things you've been a lightning rod over, you know, bringing back a conversation from 20, 25 more years ago is like the idea of the baby doll dress and what it means to riot girl and what it means to dress subversively or other people. who say, no, no, it's infantilizing or it's played out as a symbol. That's what making me so upset. Not even for me.

Like, I don't care. People could still whatever they want. What does it mean to you? What is really, like, disturbing is I feel like I actually wear, I have worn outfits that are like maybe revealing on stage. Like, I've been on stage in like a sparkly bra and like little shorts and like, which is my right. That's fun.

I felt cool and comfortable in that. And like that wasn't inappropriate, but me like fully covered up in a dress that people deemed to be like childlike was inappropriate. And I just think it, it just like shows how we just like really normalize pedophilia in, in our culture. And also, it's just as this,

this like rhetoric that we're fed as girls since we're so little, which is like, don't wear that because then a man is going to sexualize your body and it's your fault. Like, it's so weird. And I didn't think that I looked sexy in that at all. I was like,

this is so cool. I feel like, Kathleen Hannah or like Courtney love all these people who are my heroes. And I felt cool and comfortable in it. And, like, I just think if we start dressing in a way that's like, oh, I don't want some fucking freak to think that I, like, am sexy like a baby or, like, some crazy thing like that. Like, I just think it's, like, losing the plot a little bit. Yeah, I'm just very protective of, like, younger women and girls. And I just, I don't ever want them to be big fed that rhetoric, I guess.

And also protect their right as they grow up to do whatever it is, whatever it ends up being. It's like a weird cult. It's like, yeah, you shouldn't be responsible for some guy sexualizing you in a way that was never your intention. Like, yeah. One thing that I was curious about listening to this album, you talked about girls in your audience, seeing nine-year-olds, 10-year-olds cry. What do you want people to actually take away from the album? Are you telling them a story about a romantic relationship? Are you telling them a story about emotional development?

Are you just making songs you hope people sing along to? What's the thing? Like obviously the finished product is a collection of songs. Yeah. But there's more. What do you want those girls to listen to on the day it comes out to listen to? What do you want them to feel and think? Yeah, that's a great question.

I mean, I want them to like kind of be along for the ride and the story because this is a story. It's like with the beginning, a middle and an end. I think like the goal for any piece of work for me would be like to provide some sense of like emotional catharsis. I think that would be amazing. or some sort of like understanding or, I don't know, I just feel like growing up, if I heard a song that spoke to me, and I was like, oh, yeah, that's how I feel and it helps me better understand myself and the way I feel around, I don't know, insert issue here. You know, I think that that's the dream and I would love it if that was somebody's takeaway. Yeah.

Do you feel like your fan, like, I assume you have fan interactions that are more one-on-one, not simply like in an arena or in a stadium? What do you hear in those conversations? like the sort of micro moments. Like what are you hearing from those girls? Yeah, it's so sweet. I mean, especially like the young girls. Yeah, yeah, that sort of I mean. I love that.

And I think like sometimes, I don't know if you live in like, oh, don't you want to like lean into your older audience or something? I'm like, that's so cool that like an eight-year-old girl finds like my song to be moving. Like that is like the most special thing ever. Like I remember being eight years old and listening to music. And it just meant so much to me. And the fact that I could like maybe be a semblance of that for someone is so exciting. And I don't know.

I just think that like. people, like young people especially, just so emotional. Like, I love hearing stories from, like, girls who, like, have never held the boy's hand, and they're, like, traitor is my favorite song. Like, my friend at school changed friend groups, and it, like, devastated me. And it's, like, that is their whole, like,

turns their whole life on its head, and it's, like, so cool to, like, watch them process all those feelings. And also, again, in an environment, like a concert where it feels like this communal processing of emotions, I watched this documentary the other day called like, it's called The Spirits in the Forest. Have you guys watched it? I don't know, no.

Oh, wow. It's about Depeche Mode, but it's not even, it's not a concert film about, it doesn't have anything really to do with the members of Depeche Mode. It's like these five people who are huge Depeche Mode fans and it follows their life leading up to like the last Depeche Mode concert in Berlin or something. Oh, wow.

And it's just like, it's so beautiful. And it's just about like how going to a concert is not even, about the lighting or what someone's wearing couldn't matter. It's like these people and the stories that they bring to this concert. Like one of the women who the documentary talked about, she like hit her head or something and she woke up and she didn't remember anything about her life, didn't remember where she was, didn't remember her name, didn't remember her husband's name, but she remembered every single Depeche Mode lyric.

And when I woke up, I didn't remember anything of my former life except one thing, which is Depeche Mode. Like how incredible is that? Sounds like a daily mail story. A good one. Yeah, yeah, no. They're all good. That's wild.

That's incredible. No, we will. Stuff like that, it's like, it's just so cool that I get to play a show or do something. And all these people bring their own experiences of my songs to this show and we all share it together. Like it kind of doesn't, like, I feel like a concert. It's like 75% of what makes a concert great is the audience. Maybe even more. Maybe it's like 80%.

It's like, that's the number. one musical instrument or like cool thing. Like that does all of the talking for you. And you've become this bard of girlhood. And you talk about the influence of Sophia Coppola on what you've done. And you work a lot with Petra Collins. And that's been a subject and a muse for her as well. And you mentioned these, this peanut gallery idea of like, oh, don't you want to speak to your

older audience? You know, you look at what Sophia Coppola has done and she did the Virgin Suicide. decades ago, and she's still telling that story in Priscilla from a different angle, do you feel like that's ever a subject that you will have to let go of and move on from as you age and mature? Or do you think it could remain a forever theme for you? I mean, I don't know. I guess I don't like come into my album being like, this is girlhood. Like I think I just try to like be like, this is where I'm at right now.

And I think that just maybe is girlhood because I feel like a girl. But I'm 23. So I guess I'm a woman now. But you know, I don't know. I just think there's something beautiful about like this shared experience that we all have. And even like something like driver's license was a really special experience on so many levels. But that song meant so much to me because it was about my experience. But also it just like united other people in their own experience.

like a first heartbreak or something like that. Guess you didn't mean what you wanted. I think whatever experience people, if it's girlhood, if it's something else, like if whatever they attach, whatever meaning they attach to the song I would be happy with. There's one line that jumped out of me on this album because I think on earlier songs and earlier albums, something that comes up here and there is like you encounter someone, you're encountering a and he's delivering you a line or a bit and then you have this awakening that like he's delivered the line or the bit previously, right?

And then that's that moment of like, wait a minute. Like that's, that's practice, that's rehearsed. But then there's a line on this album where you say, all my ex-boyfriends have heard these lines. You call yourself out. Yeah, but I was like, but to pick up on Joe's question about sort of girlhood is a topic and maturity and how songwriting evolves, I heard that line.

And I was like, oh, like this feels like just the tiniest suggestion of leaving, some of that other energy behind and saying like, I do it too. I do it too. Is that, am I right to pick up on that as like a theme in that song and also maybe broadly speaking on this album? Yeah. It's like what we were saying before. I think like the album hopefully is my most nuanced approach to a relationship.

And like it's, you know, a real relationship where two people like know each other and love each other deeply isn't like, well, be you or mean to me. That one time there's just so much. I've been fully just learning about yourself and like your shortcomings and like the ways in which you have failed or have like, you know, or sabotaging certain aspects of the relationship. Like I think hopefully that there are moments in the record where I kind of acknowledge my own part and maybe some like negative parts of relationship. Yeah, of course. Yeah, no one's talking about holding up that mirror. No one's innocent.

No one's in a mirror to yourself. Yeah. being comfortable playing something like a villain or calling yourself out for it. Also very sex in the city. It got, in prepping for this, it got us. Did you guys watch sex in the city for? Oh, no, but we've been watching a hundred times. Countless amount of times, but it did cause us in a meeting to go around and do who we were.

Okay, wait, tell me who these guys are. You want to guess? I'm a little scared of. Like one of the girls. Yes. We kept us to the core. We need to do men later. I've heard people be like, I'm Magda.

I'm like, girl, get out of a game. Yeah, it's like, but we did a, we did a, uh, a main and a rise. Yeah, yeah. Okay, I think you're, I think you're a Charlotte Maine. Wow. You think I'm a little uptight? Wow. Dan, son.

That's interesting. John, I think accurately, this is actually a twist. It said that I'm, that I'm a Miranda with a dash of Samantha. With a dash of Samantha. Okay. And John is actually the. A letter gas. Oh, God, I don't know.

Let her guess. It's okay. You can get it wrong. It's totally fine. You don't know. Yeah, I would like that. There's no wrong answer except all the wrong answers. I know, I know.

You call me a Charlotte. Sick. Sick. I love it. I love to see it. Oh, my God. I know. You're really on the spot.

No pressure. No pressure. I want to say Carrie was a dash of Samantha. Very close. Okay. I'm actually, I feel like I'm a Carrie with Charlotte. Okay. Which is, is that not what you identify us?

Yeah. No, I think I'm a Charlotte with, with Carrie. Charlotte for us. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, and this was instructive because sometimes the answer that I might arrive at myself,

maybe it's a little bum back, you know, but they arrived at it for me. I mean, John felt good. Obviously a carry. Like, John is obviously a carry. Like, what is it? With all the, it depends on what episode. With all the complications that entails.

Unbelievable. With all the conferences. Yes, okay. Yes. Fine. Sure, we had a couple of questions in our lightning round. Love.

I love this. That's the best part. It's groundbreaking journalism. It's love it. It's important also. You have to build lore. Totally. We're building lore.

I have a custom sex in the city shirt that I meant to wear today that I did not. It's a one of one made for me by a very dear friend. And I'm very sad. I forgot to wear it today. I love that. I love that stuff. I have a few like cast and crew gets like a thing at the rap. I have a few sex in the city rap stuff.

I don't know how I got it. Like from eBay? Like gift. Yeah, from eBay. Maybe it's fake. I don't know. I'm sure it's not true. I still wear it with pride.

All right. So 52 cards in the pop cast deck. Oh, wow. Each one corresponds to a pre-written question. Okay. Some are deep. Some are shallow. Uh,

and we'll see where the fate takes you. All right. This is so fun. Thanks for having me, you guys. No, this is a, we're having a dream. What do you got?

Okay, I got two of diamonds. Two of sparkles, as I say. Nice. Okay. Okay. Okay. Two of sparkles? Yeah.

Okay. Again, we continue to learn that people relationship to playing cards is complicated. I didn't even know you could have unusual relationships to playing cards. I have the most unusual really. I love playing cards so much. I travel with four playing cards on me at all time

because I have a game. Yeah, four decks. What do you play? My manager's got me a Batega carrying case for my... Just for your cards? It's like so boogie because I don't go on here with all my cards. Yeah, we're going to get you a popcast. I would love that. We're going to mail you a podcast. I would love that. Wait, what games do you play? I play this game called Cambio that's like, I think,

golf called golf in other places. And then this game called nerds I really like that's like multiple player solitaire. You're like deep cutting card games. It's no go fish for me. Wow. No war. I also love solitaire.

Like I'm trying to be on my phone less and so if I'm like having that age, I'll just play solitaire. Wow. Can I just briefly identify myself as an older person? Okay. Does the name the game Egyptian rat screw? Yes. Oh, yeah.

I've heard of that. Big in my school. Camp Egyptian rat screw champion. Wow. We're going to play me and you after that. I was killing it. I was annihilating the older kids. It was a great time in my life.

Like one of my early, like, highlights. It was a great moment. All right, two of sparkles. Two of sparkles. I might just refer them as sparkles from now on. Okay, this is a tough one. Some of these are light. Some of these are hard.

This is a tough one, I would say. What is the most difficult thing that's happened to you in your personal life that your career prevented you from dealing with properly? Oh, my God. That's the deepest question. And we've asked, a couple people have pulled this. It's been, it's been quite revealing. I've led a very charmed life.

I haven't had anything really awful happen. I think this is like in no way what was me, but I think, I feel really sad that I, like, didn't really have a childhood. Well, that's, I mean, basically huge. I'm totally like, it's fine. I'm like, I'm totally okay. But, yeah, I was. Yeah, that's, that answer is like, that's the. That's the answer. That's the answer. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's a little sad. Is it, is it a persistent kind of like low grade, low hum? Yeah. It's something you think about a lot. Yeah. But not maybe intense spikes, but it's kind of always like hovering for you. Yeah. It reveals itself in certain ways over time. Yeah. And I, and I, it's just a push and part. Like, I live one of the most amazing life when I get to travel the world and, like, have all these incredible experiences and talk to cool guys like you. But like I, yeah, I didn't ever.

I wasn't in high school. I didn't have a good group of friends in high school. I was just going to say, was it tough to form friendships? Super hard. And it is even hard, I think for me, I have a wonderful group of friends now that I'm really, like, lucky and grateful for,

but I do feel like I'm so ahead in certain areas of my life and then maybe, like, in some, like, social areas, I'm, like, a little behind. Yeah, sure. Just because I was, I'm a homeschooled only child. Like, I was very lonely, like, upbringing. And I think that's why I, like, wrote so many songs, too, is it made me feel less alone.

Yeah. And, yeah, I mean, we feel understood. And, yeah, it's all good. It's all good. No, no, but it's also, it's like, also, even if it's not, even if it's not all good, it's great that you have the perspective. You know, it's not something you're going to wake up 10 years from them and be like, damn, I never thought about that. You're enacting. Yeah, I think that actually leads me back to something I feel on this album, which is like your clear-eyed about not being clear-eyed sometimes.

And that's a cool place to be. Yeah. Clear-i about not being clear-eyed. I like that. Next album. Okay. Okay. Nine of Clovers. Again, amazing.

I learned something every week on the show. Clovers and sparkles. Clovers and sparkles. What sparks your jealousy? Oh, my God. You're pulling the hard ones. I know. I mean, listen to the album. You'll see.

I don't know. I mean, like, romantic, jealousy is definitely a thing that I've talked about in like all three albums. It definitely gets like less all-encompassing though as I get older. What about non-romantic jealousy? Yeah, like just a really nice bag or a pair of shoes. Or just like interpersonal jealousy. I mean, I get jealous to people's songs all the time.

Like not in a way where I'm like, oh, I don't like you. But like that's also a really great feeling to like hear someone's song and be like, God, I wish I wrote that. For some people, jealousy is very animating. No, really a really good motivator. It's really a great motor. It's like an indicator that like this is what I want. This is what deep down I desire, you know. That's real spilled.

Yeah? That's real spilled. All right. Pulling on the card. Maybe I'll get a less intense one. I know. Oh, my God. It's hard hitters.

All right. Okay. Ace of Clovers. Yeah. This is easier. What are you good at besides what you do for a living? Oh. That's a good question.

It's hard. Cards, apparently. Cards. I'm a really good of cards. That's really good of cards. That's, you're the first person to say. They have four decks on hand at all times. Yeah, what else?

Secret talent. I'm really good at yoga. I really got into it last tour because I was really stressed. And now I'm really good and I can do tricks and stuff. You're like you, Skytang, Adrian, like who's your? Oh, oh. Yeah, I do love yoga with Adrian. No, I...

You can do the thing where you like hold yourself on the hands and your legs are jutting out. That's break dancing. I don't know. I've seen videos. I can do. I don't know if I can do it. quite yet. A girl can dream. A girl can dream. Yeah, it's a good one. Yeah, I love that.

Oh, my God. You know, I think I'm a good friend. Damn. I just upended the question. I try hard. It's really, damn, you really just rewrote the question in real time. It's unbelievable. It's like in a job interview and they're like, what's your greatest week? You're like, I work too hard. I know. Have you ever had a job interview? No, I've never had like a regular job. Which is that. You've had auditions.

Yeah, I just had auditions. I think I'm a good friend. Wild. Incredible answer. I couldn't even anticipate it. I'm so waiting it. Really good. All right. Two more cards. And then we'll get the deranged snack come.

Yay. I'm so excited. Seven of spades. Seven of spades. It's a good one. You read your own DMs. Do I read my own DMs? Yeah.

Yes, I do. Yeah, I do. You go into the extra mailboxes? You go in the second and the third one? See what the action is like? verified. But you do. You read it. You don't, the team's not, it's not outsourced to the team. Yeah. I'm not through my DMs. You read your DMs. You're a digital native. Yeah, yeah. I was born in 2003. Like, I know what's up. Yeah. Do you find it to be overwhelming? That people have that direct, especially, you know, so much going on, people have direct access to you. Like, do you wish to, do you like ever brick your phone? Do you ever, like, put it under the couch and be like, not for two hours? Yeah. I delete Instagram and TikTok off of my phone all the time. I'm like never on Twitter or like Reddit or any of that stuff.

That's scary. Sure. But I just delete it all the time. But it's hard. It really is tough. I know. The social media scene is. It really is real.

And it like fragments my days and fragments my attention span and like it's really not good. Yeah. Only thing I'm addicted to. Pull one more card. Yay. Okay. Finale. Okay.

Ten of Clovers. All right. Is that a poker hand? Is that like a? Not quite, right? Okay. Okay. this is a good one.

This is also it's in between serious and light. When's the last time something did not go your way, career-wise? And how did you cope with it? Oh. Yeah. I don't like talking about when things don't go well. I like just glossing over and hoping that no one notices. You can talk about the cope first.

You know, I've made so many mistakes or things I look back on like, oh God, that was so not me or like whatever. But I really do think, and I'm not even like having a cop-out answer, I think that when you look back at any artist's career, I think the cream really rises at the top. You know what I mean? Like you don't, all of my favorite artists have put out bad songs or like done things that are like not great or whatever.

It's saying a bad note or whatever. I think pound for pound, I'm like proud of my work. And so I think at the end of the day, that's hopefully what people will remember. It's funny you say that because sometimes I feel like, like when I get flack for being a critic and they're like, how could you say a negative thing about blank? And I say to them, I'm like, who's your favorite artist? And they'll say whoever it is. And I'm like, every song they've ever made is perfect. No. True. Every song you liked is a 10 year old. Do you still love? No. You have all these like touchpoints. Like we're all critics.

Everybody views the world that way. And so yeah, I think that's the exact right way to think about this kind of thing. It's like. And I think like my mistakes of the past have like led me to where I am now. And like, Nothing teaches you who you are better than doing something that's like, oh, that felt really bad. You know what I mean? Like that really informs everything they do after that. And so I'm like, I'm happy to have made mistakes and, like, done things that are maybe a cranger made a song that wasn't that good. Like, it happens. And it's all part of a cool life.

And you're less self-conscious about that stuff now than you might have been, you know, sour era. Yeah. I think also, I mean, in my last few records, I was like, I made them when I was like 17 and 19. So I'm like, no, it's like, I did the best with what I could at the time. and like with the people that I had around me at the time. And so, yeah, I don't know. I used to beat myself up over stuff a lot. They used to be really, really harsh.

And like something I think shifted in me a little bit around. I'm like, how awesome that I get to make music and, like, feel connected to other people and make music videos that I think are cool and, like, talk about things that are important to me. Like, that's awesome. Like, I think coming at that from a place of joy is just the only way you can really do it. Yeah. It's like, yeah, it's awesome. Not music is awesome.

It's a genuine gift that we animates our lives. But on that note, like one thing I've always appreciated about you is that you've been so forthcoming about your influences and people who are your heroes and what you're trying to live up to. And not all artists are like that. Some people are very stingy with giving credit or citing influence. And I think you've remained open-hearted about that, but it's come back to bite you a couple times in terms of songwriting credits or album covers or people trying to call you out for borrowing or whatever it is, borrowing a little too much. How have you pushed through that, those what I assume were pretty hard times in your creative vision being called into question? and how do you remain open with what it is that inspires you when stuff like that has happened? Yeah, I think it's a really hard time, like, just personally.

But I don't know. I'm a fan girl. I love music, and, like, nobody can, like, take that away. That's so cheesy. But, like, I love music, and I feel so lucky that I get to do what I do. and I love so many songs. And, you know, I've grown up being surrounded with awesome music and awesome bands. And, like, I truly just do feel so lucky.

And I love writing songs. And, like, that's just I'll, I would be writing songs if nobody listened and everyone hated it. And everyone thought I was bad. I would still be writing songs because it's what I, like, love to do. But I like that you call yourself a fan girl because I feel like some artists, especially at your level, are ashamed to identify themselves that way. to be a fan. What's it's so boring, not be a fan of music? There's so much good music to be a fan of, yeah. And it's like you weave it into your songwriting, you know, just like the act of being enthusiastic about music is often in your songs a proxy for the act of being enthusiastic about a person. Yeah, yeah. I mean, I think to Joe's point, like, I do think people wonder those things that were tough for you early in your career, did that leave a frost between you and other songwriters? Is there a frost between you and Taylor? Like, is that something that hovers over?

your mind? Is it something that you think is a construction of the people who are doing internet detective work? How do you view that now that you're a few years removed from the initial, the initial kind of like ruptures? I don't know. I think I tried to not let it, like, get to me or upset me. I think I just try to keep it trucking. I think there's no, it was so long ago. I think there's no use in, like, hopping on it. And, um, Yeah, I just try to make songs that I love and try to be kind and good to other people and supportive of other people. And I've always tried to be like that. And at the end of the day, I think that's all you can do.

And being supportive is like, again, I was looking at the opening act list for your tour. And I was just like, this is like a very wide range of styles of artists, but also it's like you're identifying people who you want to take on your wing a little bit maybe. Yeah. sort of safe to site. Yeah, I mean, I'm just like huge fans of all the people that are opening for me. I like, and friends too. And so, yeah, I don't know. I mean, I could sit here and be like, yeah, give them advice and blah, blah, blah.

But I feel like we're all just flying by the seat of our pants and all just like taking what comes, when it comes. And yeah, yeah, I don't know. People always ask me that. Just like, are you giving chapel advice? I'm like, blah, blah. And I'm like, like, she's giving me. advice. Like, it's like, we're all just like figuring it out as it comes. Well, send the judge.

You're like, yeah. Have you done that? But it's cool that you've done that. I mean, to the fan girl thing, it's cool that you've done that backwards and forwards. You've taken the breeders out on the road. You know, you've put your, you've put on your heroes and given them an entryway to a new audience. And you've done it with up and coming acts. So I feel like that's been an important.

Yeah. I mean, it's not calculated like, oh, God, they're going to look cool or something like that. I just like love all those bands and love all those artists. I'm, like, so stoked that I get to be around them and hear them play. The Breeders thing definitely felt radical. I remember just when that announcement came out. I was just like, well, I don't more people. This is, like, such an obvious idea.

Yeah. In terms of, like, show your lineage backwards and forwards. And you're presenting, also, especially with you with such a, like, a young and open-eared fan base, like what you're saying to them is like, hey, if you like me, there's actually a whole, there's a whole universe behind me. For sure. And a lot of people don't do that because I think people are. I truly think people are anxious that like that's what I was getting out about hiding their influence. Yeah, that they're going to show you're going to show something to a fan and they're going to be like, oh, actually I like it's that. I like that better.

Right. And that's why, you know, that people have very young artists opening for them. I mean, there's a bunch of business reasons, of course, as well. But like the idea that you as an established performer, like what I would actually like to show you is something that was meaningful to me. And that actually makes the whole show kind of an Olivia show because you're like, this is Olivia. This is what made me. This is what made me. And then you get to listen to that and then you get to listen to me.

And you get to actually draw the lines. And I think that's more people should do that. Totally. Genuinely a smart and underutilized move. Thanks. No, for real. Snack time? This is, I, I, I, are we all eating this?

Oh, yes. We are all eating this. We are all eating this. Every episode of Popcasts ends with a snack. Olivia Rodriguez walked over to our snack table and picked these hers longhots sharp Provalone. This is a Philly classic got from Wawa last weekend. And then this leftover dip that I brought to our Super Bowl hanging.

I'm sorry. Wait, it's leftover? This is shelf stable. Should it be in the fridge? Should it be? Okay, I was like, it was soft. It came from the shelf. It came from the shelf.

Can you just look into it before? you subject our guests to eating this. I know. I just like, I have to like take a stand. I have to take a stand. It's expired. It's expired. Can you smell it like on? It's expired. We don't have to. Oh, it's expired. Oh, shit. I'm sure it's fine. I don't think this really goes bad. I don't believe in expiration dates, but I will not make you eat this. I can't say I've ever had like dip on the shelf before. Oh, see, I love a French onion dip in a can on the shelf. No refrigeration. That's like one of the greatest food.

You would think so. They figure. I don't know. Look, I don't ask questions. I'm not going to make you eat this. This is the Doritos, Cool Ranch, Halpeno flavored dip. It smells, it smells like it should, in my opinion. Yeah, it smells like Taco Bell. Smells like Taco Bell.

Oh, my God. It doesn't smell bad, but I'm not going to make you eat it. I'm not going to make either of you eat it. I might try it. And if I end up in the hospital, you guys will send me flowers. I'm going to be really honest. This is, this should, we should have. You're going to have hives tomorrow.

We didn't think that anyone would ever pick it. It was mostly there as a distraction, but you're a sicko. Yeah, this is absolutely nuts. Out of everything on the phone, I got Korean snacks, Japanese snacks, British snacks, German stats. And you, this is the flavor of life. Philly crunch off champion flavor, long hots and sharp provolone. Wow. Shout out Chris Ryan.

Philly King. Shout out Zach Barron, Philly King. Carrie Baton. Carrie Batten. Nick Sylvester. We got a lot of Philly in our lives. Joelle and B. Really excited.

You did your best. Thank you for what you did to the Celtics. Mike Schmidt. Oh, that's a great smell. That is a great smell. It's a hot bag. It's like anything I've ever tasted, to be honest. It almost tastes like a peanut.

Like a peanut shell. Mm-hmm. Oh, wow. Mm-hmm. It's tart. Mm-hmm. Interesting. A lot of depth of flavor, and the spice comes all the way at the end.

This would be really good with a sub-sandwich. So I understand. Wow. Wow. A cheese steak and some of these longhats and sharp proloat flavor. Cheese steak sprang clots them up, sprinkle in the cheesecake. Okay. I love these.

I'm still understanding. This is a cheese and hot pepper flavor chip is straight out of my brain. Got to make it happen. You want some more? Yeah, I do. Yeah, I go in. I do. Really good.

Too spicy for you, John? No, it's actually quite right. Are you anti-spice? Yeah. I have a very tender stomach, regrettably. It's hitting in just the right way. Like, it's just the right amount of, like, pepper or whatever it is right at the back. It's fine.

Guys, I've had such a good time. Oh, no. Oh, my God. I'll miss you. I'm going to visit you in the hospital. Oh, my God. I'll miss you. I'm going to try this dip.

I'm going to try this dip. The next episode of Popcast is bedside at the hospital. Is it good? Dog, Europe. You're wilding. It's fresh. You're actually wilding. It's fresh.

That has been here for four months. The entirety of Popcast, that's sat there. I'm going to live. Do you have anything that you want to say to Joe before he goes away? I don't know. Parting words. Let's rank these chips. What do you got out of 10?

I'm coming back for more. I feel like you're mixed in the facial reaction, but you keep coming back. I can't decide if I like it or not. I think that's why I keep coming back. It's moving in a lot of directions at once. I can't really place it. It's almost like salad dressing tasting. It's spicy.

Right, but it's sort of like in sequence. Yeah. You're like it's kind of like a lot. mealy and then it's like, oh, it's unctuous, and then you're like, oh, it's sharp. And then it kind of goes a lot of places. I love a hers chip in general, though. I feel like the hers ridges are really strong.

Yeah. I've shouted out, I think one of my favorite chips all time are the hers. Hers ketchup. Ooh. Yeah. ketchup flavor is extremely good, hard to find. But this is, I don't know. You go first. I give it a hard six.

Wow. Okay. But it's like a six, like is it a good six? Like, six trending upwards or six kind of like I'm just trying to be nice. No, like solid. Just living right there. Okay, six. I'm going to say it's an eight.

Wow. And I'm going to say it's a thing. The only thing that's not working for me is, and I will say this is a hers chip and maybe even a lace chip problem. To me, the kind of when you crunch it, the immediate mealiness of the potato,

you feel it's like, it has a thinness to it. It's not quite a, a full crunch. You like a kettle cooked? Yeah, I want something where I'm really like, not fighting it, but there's a heft to it. And I feel like the hers, like they dissipate extremely quickly

once you start chewing them. And then all of a sudden you're just left of like a layer of spice. And so that's the only part that's not working. But it is a, it was an adventurous ride. It really was like zigzag, left, right, up down. It's a cool, it's a cool chip. Shout out food science. I think I'm a seven and a half.

Good. I wish it was spicier. And I wish I had a sandwich. I wish I had a sandwich. If it was a sandwich, it would be a nine. It's a great side. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It can't exist on its own.

No. Yeah. For sure. Alalia Rodriguez. First of all, Olivia Roderick. Thank you for being here. Thank you for having me. All right.

Thank you for being a podcast. What a blessing. Happy to have you here. Thank you so much for coming. For months, years even, John has been saying. We'll see you next week. This time. I mean it.

Every episode of Popcast is at Nlytimes.com. slash podcast, like and subscribe on YouTube. Follow us on TikTok and Instagram. Follow us to the Olivia Rodriguez Tour. We'll be back next week.