The Daily - Our Fear Facer Makes a New Friend

Episode Date: December 31, 2019

This week, “The Daily” is revisiting some of our favorite episodes of the year and checking in on what has happened since they appeared. Today, we introduce Ella Maners, 9, from our kids’ episode on facing fears, to Barbara Greenman, 70, who heard Ella’s story and felt compelled to reach out. Guests: Julia Longoria and Bianca Giaever, producers for “The Daily”; Ella and her mother, Katie Maners; and Ms. Greenman, a listener who used Ella’s tips to confront her own fears. For more information on today’s episode, visit nytimes.com/thedaily. Background reading:Ella’s fears of sickness and tornadoes were taking over her life — until she went to summer camp. How the University of Florida is helping children learn to deal with obsessive-compulsive and anxiety disorders.

Hey, it's Michael. All this week, The Daily is revisiting our favorite episodes of the year, listening back, and then hearing what's happened since they first ran. Today, Ella and her fears. It's Tuesday, December 31st. What's that? That? My dream catcher? Oh, it's called a dream catcher, so I guess it, like, catches bad dreams, but it hasn't been working so good. Oh, yeah? Have you had some bad dreams lately? Yes, I've had some last night. Really? What did you dream about last night? I don't even really remember.

Yeah, I always forget my dreams, too. I try sometimes to write them down so I can remember them. Do you ever do that? No, ma'am. I'm still working on spelling, so... Gotcha. That makes sense. From the New York Times, I'm Michael Barbaro. Okay, that would probably be really hard to say Michael Barbar... I don't know.

Is that his last name? Michael Barbar? Barbaro, yeah. Oh! Yeah. So why don't we try it? Okay. Is that his last name, Marco Barbaro? Barbaro, yeah. Oh. Yeah. So why don't we try it? Okay. For the New York Times, I'm Ella. This is The Daily.

Kids Edition. Today, we are talking about fears and how to face them. It's Sunday, September 29th. I did be really close to the mic. Hello? Hello. Michael? Hi, is this Ella?

Um, that was my mom talking, but now it's me. Is that Michael? Hi, is this Ella? Um, that was my mom talking, but now it's me. Is that Michael? Hi, Ella. Hi. Are you wearing headphones? How does it feel? Great. All right, cool. And then... My colleague, Julia Longoria, traveled to Nashville, Tennessee

to record our conversation with Ella Mainers and her mother, Katie Mainers. It feels okay? Yes, sir. Are you calling feels okay? Yes, sir. Are you calling me sir? Yeah, sir. You don't have to do that. I appreciate it, but... Got it.

Okay. How are you hearing me through this microphone? I'm not actually hearing you through the microphone. I'm hearing you through the phone, but then eventually a lot of people are going to hear you through the microphone. I don't get it. Yeah. I don't get it. Yeah, I don't get it either. I thought that we might begin with just a couple of really basic questions.

How old are you? I just turned nine. And since you're in, Ella, your bedroom, I wonder if you could describe a little bit of your surroundings. Just a couple of things in that room that mean something to you. Everybody in here. My bunk bed and my stuffed animals. Can you tell me about those stuffed animals? I got a unicorn named Uni.

And Bun Bun is my favorite, which is a bunny. She has OCD. Bun Bun has obsessive compulsive disorder. Yes, sir. I mean, yes. So Ella, I know that you have been through a lot this last year, so I wanted to talk about that with you and with your mom. Does that sound fine? Yeah. Let me start by with you and with your mom. Does that sound fine? Yeah.

Let me start by asking you about your biggest fears. What are you most scared of? Throwing up, tornadoes, fires, wind decks, monsters, and going upstairs by myself or in the garage. And among those, because that's a fair number of fears, what would you say are the biggest, the things that you're most afraid of? Getting sick. And like tornadoes.

We have like tornado watches here. Desert tornado. And the worst thing is our tornado siren is right beside our house. This dangerous storm will be near. Nashville around 7.40 p.m. Central Standard Time. Take cover now. So you can hear it like really clear. hear it like really clear. It's loud. It's really loud. Oh my God. It's a twister. It's a twister. It's like the apocalypse is coming. That's just kind of where her mind goes. but we have never had a tornado actually hit our house that's good yes sir yes obsessive compulsive disorder is not what i imagined it to be i pictured mainly the compulsive side of ocd hand washing over and, checking locks or things like that.

And with Ella in particular, her OCD focuses more on the obsession, obsessive thoughts of vomiting, of tornadoes. Ella's compulsion is actually avoidance. She will do anything to avoid the situations where vomit, tornado could happen. OCD is just something that telling you that scary things are going to happen to you. It took what Ella had a fear of. Vomit, tornadoes. And just made that fear just enormous. When I found out that I had OCD, I feel like it changed my life a lot. How so? It was harder for me to do a lot of different stuff that other people can do. And it was just harder, I feel like. The first time, it was just your typical school day. And I get to the carpool line at school,

and I drive up. And instead of Ella walking to our car, her teacher does. And I kind of rolled down the window, little confused going like, okay, where's Ella? And that's when she told me, Ella won't leave the classroom. And of course I'm going, what do you mean she won't leave the classroom? And when I got to her classroom, she was literally... I just remember I was like screaming on the floor, if I moved I was going to get sick. Knees up to her chest, arms wrapped around her, she was tucked into a little ball.

And she was just laying on the floor, crying. And she was able to say like, if I move, I think I'm going to get sick, or if I stand up, I'm going to get sick. I am going to get sick. I am going to get sick. There was not one thing I could say. You're going to be okay. You know, you're not going to get sick.

I am going to get sick. That helped her. I am going to get sick. She was just stuck. I am going to get sick. I am going to get sick. Her brain was stuck. I am going to get sick.

I am going to get sick. On this one thought of, I'm going to get sick, Ella was basically paralyzed with her fear. And I ended up just having to literally pull her off the floor and carry her to my car. I am going to get sick. We didn't know that the things we were doing, the reassuring her, you know, you're not going to get sick. Those were really amplifying her OCD. And the next thing that really pushed us was the day we got the phone call from the principal that told me there had been just a routine tornado drill at school. Ella, can you tell me what happened that day?

at school. Ella, can you tell me what happened that day? Well, it was cold outside, so I was wearing two jackets. The tornado drill was at the end of the day. Hearing the siren really just kind of sent Ella into that state of all-consuming fear. I was telling myself, like, no, I'm not going to get sick. So you kind of tried to talk yourself out of it. Yeah. And I didn't take the two coats off. And it was, like, really hot inside. And it was really thick coats.

And we had to duck our heads down even though it was just fake we were so I just make sure we knew what to do and what did you do um I went to the bathroom with everybody we ducked our head in and like then um and then I threw up. I mean, when they told me, it was like, oh my gosh, like poor child. How much worse could it get? It had to be a tornado and it had to be vomit. It was her two worst fears in one. And what did that experience do to your fears? It just made the worse, really.

These fears just kind of consumed her. They kind of consumed her life. There have been some boys that bullied me before. Can you tell me what kinds of things they would say? Somebody has said to me, like, you're not that good as like other people because you have OCD. Hmm. That's horrible. I started crying. When you start to see her not be able to do the things that she's been able to do is when as a parent you go, okay, we've really got to get on this. Yeah. I realized that we had to do it the hard way.

What do you mean the hard way? I don't really know. What's up? And I second, do you want to talk to yourself so I can have a break? Do you want a break, Ella? Please. Yeah, Ella, if you want a break, I would completely understand. Take a break.

Right now? Yeah, go for it. Okay. Um, we'll be right back. Don't leave. Uh, tell them you're ready. I'm ready? Yep. Action.

Okay. So once you determine that you have to do something. Yes. What do you do? My husband and I, we just started researching. I did so much reading on OCD, the best treatment options for it. Too much. Ella just said too much.

And came to the conclusion that Ella needed some intense therapy. So that's how we came across the Fear Facers camp that they put on two times a summer. Fear Facers. Mm-hmm. comes this summer. Fear facers. It is for children that have obsessive compulsive disorder or other anxiety disorders. It is put on by the University of Florida and sorry Ella's making funny faces. So Ella just, just based on the name, it sounds like this is a place where kids go to confront their fears. Yes. Okay, Mom, stop talking. It's my time to shine.

Sorry, Ella. It's your time to shine. Yeah. Go for it. Burn. So, Ella, tell me about what you first thought when you heard about this camp of fear facers. I was excited but nervous at the same time. And I was not ready for the drive. The drive.

Yes. The long drive. Yes. Do you remember what you played on the radio? Um, when I'm sad, I love hearing emotional songs because I don't know why. Like, Colm Scott, you're the reason. And you are the reason that I'm still breathing. I'll climb every mountain and swim every ocean. Just to be with you.

Fix what I've broken. So we just arrived from Nashville to Gainesville. As you arrive, can you describe what it looks like? There's tons of parking lots, and it wasn't a spend-the-night camp. You should just look it up. Okay. Let me do that. Fear, facers, camp.

I'm looking for the photos. There aren't really a lot of photos. There really are almost no photos. I could tell that was like a really nice place. It kind of looked like a church. So what was the first thing that you did

when you got there? I got to meet my counselors and I named my OCD OC. OC? And why did you do that? I just like the name. If you give that OCD a name, it helps them identify like, okay, is this me thinking or me being scared, or is this OCD, or in Ella's case, is this OC being scared? And tell me about OC. I always just picture him being like he's a bubble inside my brain. He's a little bubble blue.

It's blue because blue is my favorite color. I don't know why. So why did you give OC your favorite color, my favorite color. I don't know why. So why did you give Osi your favorite color, do you think? I don't know. Is it kind of like Osi's a little bit a part of you, like it's always going to be there? Yeah, it would always be there. She or he's just sneaky. Sneaky? Yeah. Sneaky how? You don't know what he's going to do. You don't know what he's going to do. He tells me, or she tells me, like, I am going to get sick.

I am going to get sick. I am going to get sick. I am going to get sick. And I say, I'm not going to get sick. I'm not going to get sick. And that makes it worse. I am going to get sick. I'm not going to get sick. I am going to get sick. I'm not going to get sick. I am going to get sick. I am going to get sick. I am going to get sick. I am going to get sick. I'm not going to get sick. I am going to get sick. I am going to get sick. I am going to get sick. I am going to get sick. I am going to get sick. So they told me to talk to OC like different.

I am going to get sick. I am going to get sick. I am going to get sick. To help OC get defeated, you can like say, yes, I am going to get sick. Yes, I am going to get sick. Yes, I am going to like, yes, I am going to get sick. I am going to get sick. I don't know how, but it defeats OC because it's like, oh, no fair. Just so Ella's OCD could have a friend, I named my OCD Osinda. I discovered, like, okay, I definitely have a little OCD in me. I check my stove at night. We have a gas stove, and I always check, and I can't just look at it. I have to feel that the little lines are facing off.

Because I want the pleasure of saying, I told you so. Osinda, in my mind, is just like Violet, the grandmother character. I think Granny's right. Could somebody write that down? From Downton Abbey, who always has to have things a certain way and is very particular and picky, just nagging. So what? I have plenty of friends I don't like. That's what Osinda would be. Ella, do you remember we were sitting on the basketball court and we sat and we listed

all of your fears? Yeah. Zero, I'm not really scared of it. Ten, biggest fear ever. Vomit. Thralling up. Tornadoes. Wind decks.

Fires. And others. And so, Ella, what did the counselors do after you told them about your fears? We did them. You did them? We kind of just did them. We did them. You did them? We kind of just did them. Are we, well, we did like exposures to them. Exposing yourself to the thing that you're most afraid of.

Yes, sir. Yes. So at one point during the week, during Ella's morning, they tackle tornadoes. They would bring me into a room that nobody was in, me and my mom and my counselors. They would bring their iPad in there to play something on it. Really strong winds. The first thing that I watched was not too hard. Oh, really strong winds. Yes, sir. We're probably close to sunset here. The first thing that I watched was not too hard,

and then I went up to harder lines. The dog was running kind of to the tornado. I was like, no, doggies stay here. They didn't take the mom. I was like, I would just take the dog too. Then after they just took me to the bathroom and played the tornado siren, we redid what happened when I got sick and we put two jackets on me? Wow. Everybody's like, why two coats?

Well, they really did try to create the situation at school to really kind of put her back in that moment when she was so fearful at school and have her see, you can do this. I said, oh, no. The siren is getting louder and louder. OC started talking to me. There's going to be a tornado. There's going to be a tornado.

And I was like, yes there is, yes there is, yes there is, yes there is, yes there is. Oh. No fear. We kept doing it over and over again, and then it just kept getting easier and easier. And then the exposures for the day were, like, over. So after the first exposure, we moved to vomit and of course as soon as we said that ella's eyes got really big it was like wait we're already gonna do vomit that's one of the really hard ones and so they explained that you know we're gonna watch a video and of course her first response is like, yeah, I don't know about that.

I rate it at a 10. Do you mind if I play it? Yeah, I don't care really. They showed me the pitch perfect, which started with a 10. I knew something was going to happen, but I didn't know when. Whenever I watch Pitch Perfect, my heart races. Right now? Yeah.

Really? Yeah. I'm sorry. Do you want to stop doing this? I want to keep going. Okay, okay. It's like I saw the sign and I opened up my eyes. I saw the blech.

There's just vomit shooting out of her mouth. So bad. It's like... But like kids, it's worth it. Osi was like, you are going to get sick. You are going to get sick. So I was like, yes I am, yes I am, yes I am, yes I am. And OC was like, okay fine, I give up. You realize that it wasn't as scary as you thought. The more times I watched it,

it helped better. After we left the room with the iPads, that is when we went to the kitchen area and started the exposure of pretending to vomit up water. They took me to the sink, and we got water in our mouth and then we spit it out, but it would be kind of like we threw it up. So you kind of pretended to be throwing up.

Yes. It was easy because, I don't know, it was just pretty easy on that. And then we moved on to the bathroom and that's where everything got trickier. That definitely was hard.

So these counselors grab a handful of the really gross jelly beans that you play, like, bean boozle with. So they taste like vomit or grass clippings or whatnot. And I mean, God bless these counselors because they're the ones that ate the jelly beans, not Ella. Ella just had to watch, and they chewed them up and then pretended to vomit in the toilet. One girl almost actually kind of got sick, kind of was gagging. I don't know if it was the taste of the jelly beans or if it was just gag reflex, but it really sounded like she got sick, and that's when Ella just really lost it. They were saying, you know, okay, Ella, why don't you look to see if she got sick? And she did not want to look to see if she got sick.

They would ask me my rating. I said 10. I refused to, like, look in the toilet. And I was crying and my mom was crying. And I was crying and my mom was crying. I stepped out of the stall because I think my emotion was upsetting Ella more. She said, this is too much. Like, why? So, Katie, it sounds like you're starting to question this whole exposure thing.

Yes. I had doubts. Did we make the right decision doing this? Is this really going to help her? And, you know, I remember being outside and just going like, is this how it's supposed to be? And they were like, yes, you know, she's, this is hard. This is going to be a hard moment for her, but she's going to have a moment in there where she realizes she can do this. I was like, why did I come to camp? This is not fun. My mom was like, she's not going to want to come back tomorrow. But they wouldn't let me leave, so I had to do it. So they took a picture with my mom's phone.

So they said, okay, how about we take a picture? And you look at the picture. Picture of? Inside, I mean and you look at the picture. Picture of? Of inside, I mean, you know, the toilet. And Ella wouldn't look at it at first and covered her eyes. And they were like, you know, Ella, let's try to look at it. I looked at the picture inside the toilet. They said she just kind of just stared at it, like made herself look at it.

And she just eventually took two steps and... I looked inside the toilet actually without the picture. Hmm. They only made me look at it once. I was so scared. But it's like worth it I was outside the bathroom talking with one of the doctors and we heard them like cheering inside just Ellis Keltzer's like

just going crazy in the bathroom and so we literally made like a tunnel for her to go through coming out of the bathroom. And we all like cheered and high-fived her. And the first thing she did was come over to me and give me a big hug. And I mean, of course, she's got, you know, like kind of red eyes. And, you know, I was like, you know, what was it like? And she's like, I was proud of myself. Like I felt brave and hadn't heard her say that in a really long time. I felt really good after I did all these exposures. I felt good. I felt happy. I felt brave. I felt everything really. I've always said, you know, we will sit with you in the bottom of the pit, you know, and we'll just get through it.

We'll get through it together. And at some point, everybody's going to be at the bottom of the pit. You know, no one's life is perfect. And I think the younger they are and can start learning to be there and work themselves back up, I mean, that's an advantage. Oh, sorry. It's like hard months. So worth it. I mean, gosh, she's going to be an amazing adult. Ella, there are a lot of kids who have OCD. There are also a lot of kids who have major fears, even if they don't have OCD. But most kids don't go to a special camp to face their fears. So what would you say to a kid like that?

What kind of advice would you give him or her? First, I would say hi. And then I would be like, just do kind of what I do, like do like strategies what I do, or like say yes I am, yes I am, kind of like that, and hopefully it will get better. Do you think it took away those fears? No, sir, no. If you have these fears now, how are they different?

They aren't as scary. Ella, I've really enjoyed getting to know you in this conversation very much, and you're very brave. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. And thank you, Katie. Thank you. Hi, Barbara. Hi, Ella. I'm so glad to hear your voice.

This is very magical for me to talk to you. Can I say, hi, I'm Ella. I'm back. Yeah, we're ready for you. Hi, guys. I'm Ella. I'm back. So, Barbara, you wrote in to the show after you heard Ella's piece. Can you say why you wanted to talk to Ella? Well, I listen to The Daily every single day. And Ella, when I heard your podcast that day, it made me cry because I also have a lot of fears like you do. My fears are different than your fears, but listening to you made me realize that I needed to get help as well,

and so I did. So I wrote into the show because I wanted them to tell you how much your honest words meant to me. Thank you. How are you doing now? I've been doing really good. I've not gone back to treatment, but I have gone to therapy. Ella, did you have any questions that you prepared for Barbara? What are you afraid of now? The types of things that I'm really scared of now, Ella, are mostly things that happen in the house, especially in the winter when it is very cold, when it gets below zero. I'm very frightened of the heat going off, of the electricity going off.

I get really pretty paralyzed with fear. And I feel very young. And I feel like I'm just very alone with this terrible problem that feels like it's just too big for me to handle. Yeah. One day, my washing machine was breaking, and I'm very scared of mechanical appliances. And when they break, I don't know how to fix anything. And all of a sudden I thought of you and I said, it's going to break. It's going to break.

It's going to break. And it did break. But that helped me to take the step to call somebody who would come help me. Do you have friends that can help you? You know, I don't have a lot of people that know about my fears. I haven't really told many people. The 1950s was just a time when you just didn't talk about these things. You just talked it inside and tried to live as well as you could. Who in your life knows about this?

Almost everybody knows about it that I know. So even your friends in your classroom at school, they know about it too? Yeah. I think that helps a lot. Yeah. Yeah. Sometimes you think an adult has a lot of courage, but sometimes the adult feels exactly the same as you.

And it means a lot to me that you talk to me. It's really good to talk to you. I hope you have a wonderful holiday. Thank you. The Daily is made by Theo Balcom, Andy Mills, Lisa Tobin, Rachel Quester, Lindsay Garrison, Annie Brown, Claire Tennisketter, Paige Cowett, Michael Simon-Johnson, Brad Fisher, Larissa Anderson,

Wendy Dorr, Chris Wood, Jessica Chung, Alexandra Lee Young, Jonathan Wolfe, Lisa Chow, Eric Krupke, Mark George, Luke Vanderbloom, Adiza Egan, Kelly Prime, Julia Longoria, Sindhu Yanasamandan, Jasmine Aguilera, MJ Davis-Lim, Austin Mitchell, Our theme music is by Jim Brunberg and Ben Lansford of Wonderly. Special thanks to Sam Dolmick, Michaela Bouchard, Julia Simon, Stella Tan, Elizabeth Dias,

Dan Evans, Heather Murphy, Wesley Morris, Leo, and Ella. That's it for The Daily. I'm Michael Barbaro. Thanks for being part of the third year of this show. And Happy New Year.

We'll see you after the holiday.