The Daily - Part 5: Can Liberal Democracy Survive in Europe?

Episode Date: June 14, 2019

Across Europe, populists are saying that it’s not democracy they aim to discard, but liberalism. To end our series, we returned to Germany, the country at the heart of a liberal Europe, to see if the rejection of liberalism had also taken hold there.Guests: Katrin Bennhold, the Berlin bureau chief for The New York Times, and Clare Toeniskoetter and Lynsea Garrison, producers for “The Daily,” went to an election party in Berlin for the far-right party Alternative for Germany. For more information on today’s episode, visit nytimes.com/thedaily. Background reading: Germany’s political establishment looks increasingly fragile after the European Parliament elections.As anti-Semitic crime rises in Germany, new forms of old hatreds are stoking fear for the nation’s estimated 200,000 Jews.Katrin Bennhold offers her main takeaway after 10 days on the road: “Europe cannot be taken for granted. But neither can its demise.”

So at this point, we're on the train platform in Warsaw. We've been traveling together for a few weeks now. Yeah. Does your ticket say that? And we've been going from country to country to sort of check what people are thinking ahead of these European elections, which are now upon us. So we pack up. Berlin! And head to the train station in Poland.

And get on the train back to Berlin. Is this it? Yeah. Yeah. You know, we started this trip thinking that these liberal values that are so fundamental to the founding of the European Union, coming out of World War II, that they're now being rejected by all these movements across Europe. As no longer relevant to people's lives or

even as threats to their national identities, as impositions. Speaking with Danuta, the Polish law and justice politician, I think I understood a little bit better what this was about and what kind of Europe the populists wanted. They don't want to throw away democracy. They want to throw away liberalism. They want a democracy that responds to them, that answers to them, that represents the will of the majority. And this is the battle they're kind of bringing to the EU parliament.

So these elections, the second biggest democratic process in the world, this is about how many of these people with a different vision of Europe get into the parliament. This is Germany? This is Germany. And so we're crossing the border back into Germany, this country at the heart of a liberal Europe, where the

story began, but where nationalism has also gained traction, and where now there is this far-right party, the AFD. We wanted to see to what extent this other view of Europe, that rejection of liberalism, had taken hold in Germany too. From the New York Times, I'm Katrin Vandenhoek. This is The Daily. Today, back to Germany. It's Friday, June 14th. Oh my gosh, that is amazing!

14th. Oh my gosh, that was amazing! Yes, look! Hello. Hello. So for the last three days, voters across the European Union have been going to the polls. And on this last day, we drive something like 45 minutes to the outskirts of Berlin to basically spend the election night with the AfD, Germany's far-right party.

So we get out of the car. And we're just hit by this wall of sound. There's maybe two dozen protesters there. They have banners, they have megaphones, they're chanting, they're shouting. There's police trying to sort of control them. It's not a big crowd, but it's a very noisy crowd. They're basically equating the AFD to Nazis. We will come back until you have solved your own problems. So this is, it's actually a dance school. They've rented out a dance school because they were going to have their election party at a restaurant. And the restaurant owner received so many threats from like anti-AFD people that they had to move the location.

It was all like hush hush. And we only found out yesterday. But on any other day, you can learn how to dance tango here. And finally get to this dance school, which is tonight's venue for the AFD's party. is tonight's venue for the AFD's party. So this isn't like a sort of US-style raging election party with balloons and music. This is fairly kind of German. Only men look at that, or mainly.

There's a lot of men in suits, drinking beer, eating pretzels, as people kind of wait for the first real results of the evening at 11 p.m. In English? You speak brilliant. And then there's Jörg Meuthen. I'm Jörg Meuthen. I'm the chair of the AFD of Germany. So Jörg is the main candidate of the AFD running in these elections. He's already in the EU parliament, but he's running for re-election.

I'm in European parliament. He was kind of the star of the evening. And I want to ask him, what does he make of the state of German democracy? And what does he make of this idea that we heard in Poland that Germany is less democratic because it adheres to these liberal values? Do you think German democracy today is healthy? So I asked them. less democratic because it adheres to these liberal values.

Do you think German democracy today is healthy? So I asked them. No, it's not. It's not at all. Is democracy working in Germany? For example, there are so many people fighting against us. They say we are Nazis, we are racist, we are anti-Semitic and all these things. It's completely, really completely wrong. And Jörg said, no, democracy is not working. They do not accept, for example, that we have our election party here today.

They try to get us out from here by using violence. He said, look, look where we're at. We're in this dance hall on the outskirts of Berlin because we were threatened in this other place. And they fight against us by burning down our cars, by fighting with a physical kind of violence against persons. And that's not a healthy kind of democracy. I need bodyguards, a large number of bodyguards. Is that your bodyguard behind you?

For example. Another one there, no? Some of them are here. And it's necessary because if I go out, it's dangerous for me. Why? Why? I just have an opinion. And I can accept that others do not accept my opinion. And he said, look, we can't even say what we think.

You know, I would always fight for the left side to have the right to say what they want to do. Because that's democracy and that's freedom. But from the left side, they do not accept us. He says that the tolerance that liberals pride themselves on ends with opinions like his, opinions that they don't like. It's difficult to have a democracy where free speech is getting more difficult every day. This frustration is voiced a lot here. In Germany, you say say I'm from the AfD

and you don't get an apartment. You can't rent an apartment if you say this. In Hamburg today, if you want to be a teacher, you must make a signature that I don't in the AfD. That's not free. You know, whether or not you agree with the policy of the government or not, or you oppose it completely, in a democracy, it should not be a problem to address those problems in public. And you don't have to be afraid of, you know, losing your job, you know, getting attacked or something.

Especially in Berlin, a lot of people, older people like me, that they came from East Germany, feel today like coming home. It's the same system, it's the same pressure. At work, you look over your shoulder, what you're saying, and this is new. So you're saying this reminds you of communism? Absolutely.

It's the same pressure, it's smarter, and it's in color. But it's the same shit like in the communism. And this isn't an entirely wild idea in the sense that Germany, because of its history, again, has some special circumstances. I mean, in Germany, hate speech laws are extremely strict, to the point where, to an American, this may almost seem like censorship. You can't, for example, show a swastika in public. That's a crime. So freedom of speech is more curtailed in Germany

because of hate speech laws than it is in a lot of other democracies. So they see themselves as unfairly targeted. So what is it that they want to say that they feel like they can't? And so what is it that you would like to say at work and you feel your colleagues don't let you say? I want to talk what I feel. We asked this several times and people sort of talk around it. Safety, education, border security.

And one thing that came up a lot is their views on Islam. If you have a certain opinion about the immigrants that come here from all different countries, if you say, well, I believe they do not have the legal status to stay here, you're classified as a right-wing person. There's a sort of sense that if you express, for example, your dislike of immigration or of Islam, that you run the risk of being called a Nazi. And they're saying, it's okay for us to be proud to be German.

It's okay for us to want to celebrate our culture. It's okay to be opposed to immigration. That doesn't make us Nazis. They kind of want what Danuta, that Polish law and justice politician from the Nationalist Party in Poland, told us about. They want the majority to basically get the last word. But we will be more democratic when we have an AFD government because we want the people to decide certain things. They argue that the rise of populism across Europe, far from being a threat to democracy, is actually a sign of a healthy, vibrant one. But when you give all the power to the majority, you also take protections away for minorities.

And so I'm wondering, at what point is this a problem? What if the people then vote in favor of the death penalty? One issue that to me as a German and as a European felt like a good pressure test is the death penalty. Across the political spectrum, including the AFD, everybody here in Germany is against the death penalty, which has been illegal in democratic Germany since World War II and the Nazi era. Then you think, well, if the majority of the people say we want the death penalty back, do you think that actually maybe the government needs to bring the death penalty back? When I asked, they would just say this would never happen.

It would never happen. But if it did... But I said, what if they did? Should it be? I mean, is that what you're saying? A referendum? If the people say something, it should happen? I hope the education and Erfahrung, memory or the experience, are on a level today that this, like your Beispiele? Yeah, this example. This example are not possible. Okay. I hope.

We are working to avoid. Basically, they were saying, we trust that our people wouldn't do that. Our people know better. Our people can handle direct democracy. They wouldn't vote for that kind of thing. And I kept asking, what if they did? And after many, many rounds of this, one agreed. Yes, of course, that's democracy.

Yes, then we'd have to do it. That's just a kind of basic democracy. And if the German people vote in a referendum, we don't want any more Muslims. Because I meet people, especially in East Germany and Saxony, who say, we just don't want any more Muslims. If the people say that they don't want any more Muslims is that what democracy dictates that actually stop? Yeah that's it. This sort of raises inevitably the question in Germany this country with our history right. We once targeted a group a religious group in our past and the narrative was similar they're not

compatible they want to destroy us from the inside and all of this. So what's different? We Germans have learned a lot from the thing with World War II, the Shoah Holocaust, you know, and the members from this party have learned that no man in history has damaged this country so much like Adolf Hitler. They want conservative rights, views. They want law and order, I think. But nothing with Nazi. Nothing to do with it.

nothing with Nazi. Nothing to do with it. Again and again, as we make our way through this election party and we talk to people, I kept bringing up the fact that Hitler himself was elected. He's a product of a democratic process. And this one young guy said something. He said something that we've been hearing from young people across Europe on this trip,

but it's especially meaningful to hear it in Germany. We do have a certain history, but we are not the same people as at that time. He said that we should be able to leave the past behind. We shouldn't be limited to a history that is more than 80 years old. I mean, take me as an example. I have not been alive at that time. My parents have not been living in that country you are talking of. Why should I be forced to say or to think something

people want me to think? I live in the Germany of now and here. Are they firm results or are they still exit polls? And then, after hanging out at this party for a few hours, it's 11pm. And the election results are coming in from all across Europe. When we come back. We've had these TVs in the background all night, and we've seen Salvini, we've seen the yellow vest. We've seen just like our whole trip has just been on TV in the background all night.

So everyone at this AFD election party is kind of watching this big projector on the wall that has life results streaming in. This is Italy. And so eyes are glued on the screen and we're seeing the first results come in, and it's very clear... The Democrats lost 20 points? Yes. ...that the nationalists have done well in a number of countries. Sounds like Marine Le Pen has just been declared. Oh, wow, look, 24%. In France, Marine Le Pen's party overtook Emmanuel Macron's in Italy.

The big winner was Salvini's party. And in Poland, it was law and justice that did the best. But when we get to Germany, it's not looking so good for the AFD. Germany, it's not looking so good for the AFD. They get 11%, which is a modest increase from where they were at at the last European election. But it's less than even what they got in the last national election. And their rival party, the Greens, this center-left, pro-liberal, pro-refugee party that's essentially an anti-AFD party, the Greens get almost twice the vote that the AFD gets. And the mood in the room is subdued. What do you make of tonight's result? Are you happy? Well, yes, yes. All in all, I'm happy. You always can have in mind more, more, more, but it's a fine result. 11% is a good result

and is a quite good reason to be happy and to have a good beer. And overall, what's kind of the major headline of the night? So it's a really mixed picture. One interpretation is to say that this sort of nationalist populist wave that had been expected by some and predicted in the European Parliament hasn't materialized. You know, we've seen an increase from 20 to about 24 percent of the seats now held by nationalists. That's enough to make a lot of noise,

maybe to disrupt proceedings to a certain degree, but you still have like three quarters of this body that is firmly on the pro-European, pro-liberal democracy side. The other interpretation is to say, if you had told me 10 years ago that there would be a far-right party in the German parliament, and that this far-right party would get 11% in a European election. And if you told me five years ago that Salvini's League, which got 6% at the time, would now be on 34%, I'd have been shocked. These parties, these movements are now firmly entrenched everywhere in the EU, including in Germany. So what are you doing? everywhere in the EU, including in Germany. So what are you doing?

Just checking the results of our friend Susanna Ciccardi, the mayor. So now we just kind of want to check in with some of the people we've met along the way to see, you know, what those results mean for them and for their countries. Hello. Ciao Susanna, it's Katrin from the New York Times. Ciao. So Susanna, whom we'd met in Italy, the candidate for Salvini's Lega party. So what happened? Did you win? Yes, I won. Wow. Okay.

She won her seat. So you're going to the European Parliament. Yes, I'm ready to go. So what's next? Salvini for prime minister? So this means that Matteo Salvini, who currently is interior minister, could conceivably force a new election. In which case, looking at these results, his party, the League party, would probably win. And then Salvini would become the prime minister. I hope.

You hope so. Well, do you think Salvini's vision for Europe is winning? Yes. Then finally we call Magdalena. Hello, hello. The candidate who we met in Poland and who has been running against the nationalist government there. Of course. So did you win?

Yes, yes, I did. Congratulations. And I have the best result in our region. That is a huge vote of confidence. Wow. Actually, I'm very sad after this election, you know, because I... But she was very sad about the fact that the opposition overall had done poorly and that the government had done very, very well. Before, we really believed that we win this election.

Then it would be this anniversary. And she said that she was worried that liberal democracy was losing. But liberal democracy is losing with populism, you know? Our democracy is losing with populism, you know. I see now people are losing their hope. Well, good luck, Magdalena. Good luck and thank you for giving us so much time. So by the time we get off the phone, the party is totally over.

Should we take a cab with you and then we'll take a cab the rest of the way? We'll just keep going. And the trip and the elections are over. Get some sleep. Good night.

You too. Bye. Tschüss. Tschüss. We'll be right back. So when we set out on this journey, we had all these questions about what would be the future of Europe? Would the European Union survive? And now that we've come back from our journey and seen these election results, Do you feel like you have the answers to those questions now?

I guess one of my biggest takeaways is that I don't think we have a Europe problem. I think we have a democracy problem. For a lot of people we met, liberal democracy is just not delivering anymore. These values that the EU was founded on, they're just not making sense anymore in a lot of people's lives. You know, the electrician in France who has seen his salary stagnate and who's kind of humiliated to tell his own children in the middle of the month that there won't be enough money.

Or the Italian who doesn't feel at home anymore in their own small town after migrants moved in, or the Polish person who feels that their Catholic values are being sort of fundamentally threatened. Each of these people is rejecting the tenets of liberal democracy, capitalism, globalization, the protection of minorities. Because in a way, each of these tenets feels like a rejection of them. And I see that in my own country here in Germany. You know, the AFD is much more popular in the former communist East than it is in the West. And there's a reason for that. East Germany had a very

different experience of liberal democracy. I grew up in Western Germany. We got liberal democracy after World War II. My story of liberal democracy is the post-war economic miracle. It's a good time. It's a happy time. Things get better. In the East, they got liberal democracy after communism fell and Germany was reunited. This is the 1990s. And it was followed by this very traumatic decade. You know, factories closed, there was mass unemployment, young people left in droves, and Westerners came in to run everything. Political parties, universities, businesses. So East Germans, who had just beaten communism in this incredible, peaceful revolution, they ended up basically being told what to do by the West. And so when the AFD says liberalism has failed, you can sort of understand why East Germans agree with them.

agree with them. This is kind of what I've learned, that the rejection of liberalism often feels like a story that is born in disappointment and in humiliation, in a feeling of being left behind and of being ignored. So, in a way, we have this microcosm in Germany of what Europe looks like overall.

The defenders of liberal democracy are going to have to really find ways to respond to these conservative needs. They're going to have to find a way to paint a vision of the future that speaks to people and that pays attention to people. You know, and we're seeing, we're seeing movement. I mean, look at the success of the Greens in Germany and in some other countries. I mean, something is definitely stirring. But the mainstream centrist parties, they haven't found that language of the future yet. So right now, I feel like there's this large political space that's up for grabs in Europe. And there's this battle going on, on who's going to take that space. Liberal democracy is not going to win that battle if it doesn't change. If liberals don't take a very hard look at themselves.

Because look, if the system were working for ordinary people, would we see populists rising all over the place? And if liberal democracy is not working as it is right now, can you have the European Union without it? And what would take its place? And that's kind of the moment Europe is in. In that case, should we ask the questions? Should we sit here?

Okay, yeah, perfect. I keep thinking of the story that this Jewish restaurant owner in Chemnitz told us. The man whose restaurant was vandalized during the far-right protests that we discussed. And I keep thinking about this thing he said. He said, democracy isn't permanent. Nobody ever said it was. He was born in the GDR in Eastern Germany. Communist Germany.

He lived in Yugoslavia. And then he got this degree in the Soviet Union. And now none of those countries, all those systems exist anymore. They aren't on any map. They failed. He said, how can we be so sure that democracy will survive?

It must not last forever. He said, how can we be so sure that democracy will survive? How can we be so sure that democracy won't fail too? Thank you. Thank you so much. Bye. Bye. Thank you, Katrin. Thank you, guys. Bye. Bye. Thank you, Katrin. Thank you, guys. Okay, guys.

That's a wrap. That's a wrap. Time to get a drink. And some sleep. And some sleep. Okay, when are we doing the next one? The Daily is made by Theo Balcom Andy Mills

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Chris Wood Jessica Chung Alexandra Lee Young Jonathan Wolfe Lisa Chow Eric Krepke Our theme music is by Jim Brunberg and Ben Landsberg of Wonderly. Special thanks goes to Sam Dolnick, Michaela Bouchard, Stella Tan, Julia Simon, and this week... That's it for The Daily. I'm Katrin Benhold. I'm Lindsay Garrison. I'm Claire Tannisketter. Michael Barbaro will be back on Monday.

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