The Daily - Policing and the New York Mayoral Race

Episode Date: June 22, 2021

In the wake of last year’s Black Lives Matter protests, a central question of the New York City mayoral contest has become: Is New York safer with more or fewer police officers?Today, we see this tension play out in a single household, between Yumi Mannarelli and her mother, Misako Shimada.Guests: Misako Shimada and Yumi Mannarelli, a mother and daughter who live in New York City. Sign up here to get The Daily in your inbox each morning. And for an exclusive look at how the biggest stories on our show come together, subscribe to our newsletter. Background reading: The New York City mayoral race has been fluid, but the centrality of crime and policing has remained constant. For more information on today’s episode, visit nytimes.com/thedaily. Transcripts of each episode will be made available by the next workday.

This has been the longest year in the history of this city. Longest year, the toughest year. And a year where there was so much that we had to overcome together. Over the past year, New York City has confronted two major forces. New York City, the epicenter of the COVID-19 pandemic in the U.S. A pandemic that hit the city harder than any place in the country and exposed the depth of its inequities. A report from the mayor's office calls COVID-19 the largest mass fatality incident in modern

New York City history. And. Whose lives matter? Our lives matter. And massive protests over race and policing that prompted calls to rethink and defund the NYPD. We demand that our city defund the NYPD by at least half. At least half. And so as the race to replace New York City's mayor got underway, it seemed like those two issues would become central to the campaign. And that's how it started.

We need to make New York City the COVID comeback city, but also the anti-poverty city. The candidates talked about the best and fairest way to bring back an economy battered by lockdowns. Policing is fundamentally broken in this country. And they talked about how to change policing. Or maybe it's not broken, it's just working exactly how it's supposed to. And the point about what people are demanding is then break it, And the point about what people are demanding is then break it, then make it different. We have become a safe haven for those who want to use their power in an abusive way and not in a corrective way. With some of them calling for huge cuts in the police budget. It's time to move a billion dollars from one police plaza into the streets of our city.

from one police plaza into the streets of our city. It was exactly the kind of campaign with a progressive consensus at its core that you'd expect in a deep blue Democratic city. But then, over the past few months, the campaign started to change and the consensus started to unravel. An alarming surge in shootings around New York City. Violence was on the rise in New York and almost every major American city. We do talk a lot about gun insanity here on Eyewitness News these days. Unfortunately, lately, New York City is becoming no stranger to gun violence and shooting incidents.

becoming no stranger to gun violence and shooting incidents. Overall crime was down. But by the end of 2020, murders were up 45% in New York. Shootings were up 97%. And week after week, there were acts of violence that shocked the city. A deadly stabbing spree on the subway. Four separate attacks that stretched from Queens to upper Manhattan. Tonight, Times Square is a crime scene. After a shooting sent crowds running. Three people were injured, including a four-year-old girl. Tragic shooting in Queens. Deadly gunfire that ended the life of

a 10-year-old boy. The latest shootings are part of the rise in gun violence across the city, and increasingly, children are the victims. Polls started to show that public safety was voters' top issue. Thank you, candidates. I'm going to start with the first question and it's about public safety. Violence dominated a series of candidate debates. No surprise we're going to start tonight the first question on crime. And I want to start... And the driving question of the race suddenly became how exactly to keep New York City safe.

With fewer police? We are going to stop the hiring in the next two police cadet classes. As I have said, we have a police department that is bloated. Or with more of them? I do not agree with defund the police. I do believe in community policing and rethinking and reforming. The police need to be equipped to fight crime in any circumstance. And if anything, we need to go on a massive recruitment drive for new police officers.

We must wake up when all families are dealing with the issues of gun violence. when all families are dealing with the issues of gun violence. Today, as New York City voters head to the polls, we talk to two of them about an election that is testing the city's values. It's Tuesday, around 7 p.m., about a week before the Democratic primary and the mayor's race. We are on Amsterdam Avenue in the low 100s in a neighborhood where the Upper West Side

starts to bleed into Morningside Heights. It is a gorgeous, cloudless, slightly breezy summer night, and the streets are filled with people. There's music playing in the street. Literally, a speaker is passing us. And we're here to talk to two Democratic voters who really embody what has become the central tension of this mayor's race, which is what to do about crime and what role the police should play in that. And in this case, that tension is playing out inside a single household, inside a single apartment between a mother and a daughter.

And that is who we're gonna meet inside their place right now. Are we going across the street? Yep. Is it that building? No it's the one next to the beauty salon. Got it. Watch out, watch out. How you doing guys? Good. You're welcome. Hi. Hi. How are you?

Good. Come on in. Thank you. Thank you. How long have you guys been here? She was born here. So 26 years. Yeah. did you walk around the neighborhood yeah it's cute right i mean yeah it's changed a lot so what was it well when we came here on amsterdam

it was a lot of drug dealers i mean just like it was pretty seedy you wouldn't want to walk on that street late at night, especially a woman. It just, it was not comfortable. But also a lot of like gentrification in the sense now there's a Panda Express, there's Shake Shack, there's, you know, Prêt-à-Manger, all those types of, you know, high-end fast food restaurants for all these kids going to Columbia. Yeah, true.

But I mean, it's, but it's changed. Yeah, and I'm just saying another way. I think it's great. Yumi Manarelli is 26 years old. I'm Yumiko. You can call me Yumi. I'm from New York. Misako Shimada was born in Japan

and has lived in New York City since she was 17. Am I supposed to say my age? You don't have to. Okay, I'm, I think, 56, 57 years old. Misako works as a personal shopper at a luxury department store in midtown Manhattan, which furloughed her during the strictest period of the lockdown. And when the store finally reopened last summer, business was way down. And because she works on commission, she earned about a third of what she had before

the pandemic. Yumi, meanwhile, had lost her job before COVID hit and decided to move back in with her mother. So we kind of have this ritual. We make dinner and then go sit in the living room and watch CNN. And it's usually me just, you know, I guess getting pretty riled up. And so day after day, night after night, the two of them have experienced the events of the past year together and they have debated them endlessly. But, I mean, starting with the murder of George Floyd and with Breonna Taylor's

murder as well, like, I was at home and I was supposed to be doing all of these, you know, applying to a million jobs and like working on all these side projects. But to me, it kind of felt a little meaningless to like not put my body on the streets and, you know, join other people in the city to make our voices heard and to show, you know, everyone that we were upset. And me and a friend who lived close by, we would just go to every single protest that we could because it just felt like the most direct form of action that I've ever been able to be a part of because, you know, the more bodies, like the harder it is for cops to, you know, shut it down. So the first night when, uh, I think de Blasio put the curfew, um, we stayed out and we were at battery city park, like right before the tunnel going into Brooklyn. And they had cops lined up. And then there were cops behind us pushing us down.

And they had cars like driving straight through where we were all, you know, walking. And then all of a sudden they just started coming at us swinging their batons and like in complete like unnecessary riot gear like I've never been so scared in my life I really haven't been any serious situations where I've felt threatened by the cops I going to protest, that's when I really realized that they truly don't care. And at a certain point over the summer, those protests evolve. And in places like New York, the rallying cry becomes to defund the police. Can you talk about defund the police and what you thought of it? What you made of it? Yeah. I mean, you know, I don't want my tax money going towards paying for riot gear that costs a

lot of money. I don't want to pay for these cops to be on overtime to, you know, barge through Washington Square Park and make a scene and just arrest people randomly to like I guess display their power and I don't think that throwing more money at this essentially brotherhood that protects one another is gonna solve the issues that are you know very prevalent in our cities so it appe to you, this concept of defund the police? Totally. Yeah, I am very defund the police. I think that's the first step in eventually abolishing the police.

I mean, it's hard for people to imagine that. And I think that that is like a generational difference where I think that personally, there are other means of providing safety. And we need to understand like the root of why maybe there is crime. going towards, you know, more resources for schools that are completely underfunded, more resources towards, you know, helping people get jobs, providing them with housing, that will hopefully, I think, decrease crime. So given all that, I want to understand what you have made of the rise in gun violence in New York City. And that actually started before the protests, and then it continued since the protests. And as somebody who was out there protesting, calling for defunding the police, what did you make of that? Did you

immediately start to see it as a challenge to that? I could see from a perspective that's not defund the police that that would be a challenge for the defund the police movement. But I really think that, you know, the police don't provide more safety. They don't decrease gun violence. You know, like if you want to decrease gun violence, like that starts with creating laws to maybe prevent more people from getting guns. What exactly do you mean by that? Because at the end of the day, isn't it cops who enforce gun laws once they're made? Isn't it cops who eventually gun laws once they're made? Isn't it cops who eventually have to go seize an illegal gun? I guess, you know, with gun violence, like, obviously it needs to end.

But I think that if you put more resources into preventing why people might get guns or like to, you know, build better communities, you know, give people opportunities that they might not otherwise have, maybe that would also lead to a decrease. But it would take time. Yeah. I don't think this is like overnight, but, you know, it just takes a lot of reimagining how we as a society are safe. You know, to one person, the police could be providing safety, this idea of safety. But to another group of people, they could be a serious threat. And I mean, I think that the experience of others, like black and brown people, are significantly worse. And that's what makes me, you know, that's what gets me upset.

Like, I wasn't out there for me. Like, I was out there for the other people. But when you say black and brown, you don't put yourself in that category. No, I mean, I guess I'm racially ambiguous, but I am able to, like, operate in different spaces. And I've never had to really deal with the police. So it's interesting that you've been experiencing all this, the death of George Floyd, the protests, all while living here with your mother. So I assume you have talked the two of you about this. Oh yeah. A lot. And what have your, what have your conversations with your

mother been, been like as you have arrived at this place? Uh, yeah, I mean, it's been difficult. I mean, I guess I could be better at trying to explain things, but I it's like I want you to trust my, you know, my stance, but it doesn't seem to work. She's very passionate, but I also don't agree a lot of things she says. And, you know, I'll tell her, but, you know, she doesn't like hearing it, and she gets upset if I don't agree with her. What do you think when you hear Yumi, for example, calling to defund the police? I don't think it's a good idea. I don't. There has to be changes in the police department, for sure.

It's ugly. There are issues. But we do need the police department. I do feel safe. I take the subway. You feel safe when you see them? Yeah. You know, I mean, just being there,

and especially where there has been a lot of crimes, just like during the day, slashing, you know, Asian hate, all this going on. And it's like these violent things are happening so randomly. It's not like always late at night. It's during the day. So when I go to work in the morning, if I see a police officer, it just, there's a relief. Did you feel less safe during this during this past year i mean

going back to work i was very cautious who was around me you know if i sensed something was off or like that person was i would go i would not get on the car or you know the train car i'd go to the other side or on a platform i've sensed somebody was a little off i'd go to the other side. Or on a platform, I've sensed somebody was a little off, I'd go to the opposite direction. How much does that have to do with what's happened to Asian Americans in cities like New York this past year? I think a lot. Yeah. I mean, because it just, they were like random people, you know, just during the day, morning, attacking people. And we would see it on the news, what would happen. And it was scary. Given that, is it fair to say that crime, public safety is at the top of the list of issues for you in the mayor's race?

Yes. Yes. Definitely. definitely i mean defunding the police no it's not going to work for me you know and just so i understand why why that feels so wrong to me we started talking about that a minute ago do you want to see more police on the streets and in the subways i would like to. People have to feel safe. Maybe I might feel safe, like Yumiko said. Maybe the person next to me might not. And I understand certain people, Black people, where a mother would say, I'm afraid for my son.

I feel for that. I can't imagine what that feels like. But I just believe there are, there are good police, and police are supposed to protect us. So help me understand how you've come to view the police that way. You said when we first met that you came to this neighborhood. 26, yeah. Yeah, almost three years ago.

So what was your sense of safety back then? This neighborhood, it was very different then. Like I mentioned, it was a lot of drug dealers on the street, you know, heroin addicts. You didn't want to walk on Amsterdam. No, you just wouldn't. Yeah. Times Square was like in the 80s. It was like prostitutes, you know, porn, like movie theaters and drug dealers.

I mean, I walked on that street. I thought I was going to die. I just didn't realize how bad it was. And it was scary. So scary. And then some guy tried to touch me and my friend like smacked his head and said, don't touch her. And he popped her in the head, you know, and it was just like, oh, my God, you know. I'm sure there's places like that, but it was just so seedy.

And I was trying to explain what seedy looked like. I don't think she knows. To you? Yeah. Because seedy went away for a long time it's that you know it's not a place you want to walk through and you know one time a homeless guy like smacked me in the face but like he smacked me so hard i went down yeah when was that that was like in my 20s i saw the guy coming and i like walked away and he was in like a shopping cart walking down but he was so

big and tall his arm just went out and whacked me and I went down and then I saw stars I remember the whole thing and then like my friend grabbed me and like I sat down and I was fine that's a that's a meaningful experience to have that happened. Mm-hmm. Yeah. And crime was much higher back then. Yes, definitely. But it's like a different type of crime. I don't know. I mean, crime is crime. It doesn't matter.

But, I mean, what I recall is the crimes were like the drug addicts stealing. Now it's just more of the lunatics with guns. It's more guns. So if someone pissed somebody off, boom, if you had a gun. That's what it feels like right now. You know, like if I'm in a car with my friend, I don't want her getting in a tiff with another person because I don't know if that person might have a bad day and have a gun next to them. Things like that I think about more often. We'll be right back. So, back to what it's been like for the two of you to kind of talk about this.

I mean, how has it been like to try to reconcile these two views? I mean, we get our arguments. I feel like when we have these conversations, what is it that makes you scared? Is it being on the subway with houseless people who may be having a fit? They deserve the same amount of safety, and I think that putting more money into resources that can help these people, that can get them out of the positions that they are in now,

and I don't think that giving the police more money will help these people. Look, you just said, if I'm on a subway, right, and I feel safe if there's a police officer, but the guy that is a little off, right, you're saying, he's scared. But if he's not normal, he should not be there. But what is normal? Well, meaning, like, not normal, but if he's mentally ill and he's going to hurt somebody, but if he's not, I don't think the police officer is going to hurt somebody. But if he's not, I don't think the police officer. But I think saying that someone who's mentally ill, who's going to hurt someone,

they might be having a manic episode. And, you know, like we don't understand what it's like to live on the streets. We don't understand the insecurity and violence you may face every day and how that affects how you behave. And I think that it's not the police that are going to, you know, take more of these houseless people out of the subway. I'm not telling them to take them out of the subway. I'm just saying I feel safe when a police officer is there. But you said the reason was because someone who may not seem quote-unquote normal is there. If there's someone abnormal or something off and I see a police officer, I'm relieved. Yeah. I mean, do you worry that perhaps your mother is overstating the kind of question of personal safety? I mean, I definitely, I think it's your concerns about your safety in the sense of, you know,

the attacks against Asian American people has risen dramatically. And like, that's something to not brush off. But I think that there are many ways to reimagine how we are safe. And we need to go to the root of why there are all these issues that make people feel uncomfortable and addressing how we can collectively work towards better solutions that make you feel safe, that make others feel safe, that make houseless people feel safe. Do you feel you might be more persuadable about something like defunding the police if you didn't like defunding the police if you didn't personally feel unsafe in this moment? I mean, if you felt safer,

could you see yourself adopting a view like Yumi's? If I felt safer, there was no crime, say? Or if there's no crime? Less violent crime. Right, but I mean... But then they're doing a good job.

So why would, you know, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. So let me, right. But if. So you're saying, no, if crime is down, that's because cops are potentially doing their job really well. So then why would you want to defund them? Right. Hearing what your mom said makes me wonder if you think that defund is just waiting for the right moment. Perhaps a moment when people feel safe.

Because now, this moment, when people, according to the polls that have been released, are worried about crime, it feels like a hard sell. But then I hear your mother saying, well, but if crime is low, that means cops are doing their job. So that's not the right moment for defund. Do you worry that this isn't the right moment for defund or that there might never be a moment for defund? I think there's always every moment, every day is the day to defund the police. I don't ever think of...

For you. Yeah, for me. We just see things differently. think it's wait wait but also look at the looting that happened and i realized it was anger but it was like do you understand the the rich people loot from all of us by not paying their taxes like wait wait but listen there are stores like mom and pop shops that they got looted. Okay, the big companies and whatnot, that's still terrible. But, you know, I mean, they wrecked the place.

But there was a part of me that some of them are so angry, but that doesn't make it right to destroy property. It's like someone destroying, like the police department attacking an innocent person that's wrong that's as wrong as that wrong person destroying a property that's wrong i don't know what everyone's intentions are but you know like we don't understand what it's like to live in fear every day that we could be the next person that gets killed but the thing is she has been living in fear but i mean with i think in terms of the culmination of you know george floyd and brianna taylor like that's you know there is way more beyond just those incidents that, you know, black people have experienced that we like just fundamentally can't understand.

I agree. I'm not. But the thing is, there are bad people. That's what I'm saying. There are bad people that did that, that shouldn't have done that. And like cops, they're bad cops and they should not be on the force. But they are good cops. They are.

The looting, first of all, who cares about these shops, like the big shops, these corporations? I just said small, like mom and pop shops that got destroyed. You know, I mean, it's still wrong. I'm sorry. No, I'm just thinking that you do work at a retail store. Yes. So we were all boarded up, you know. I mean, it was just scary to see Midtown also.

It was eerie. All the stores being boarded up. It's a corporation. I don't care. They probably steal money from their employees and workers. And, you know, it's just. You mean, but that sounds terrible. A target. I mean, no offense, but I just not that I'm condoning it.

But, you know, you just that doesn't sound wrong. OK, so that was very calm. No, we're very. So that was fascinating. We're very calm. No, we're very calm right now because you're here. We know. Yeah, very. Well, I want to pursue that because it feels like the main difference here between you two, mother, daughter, here, when it comes to the question of public safety is around timeframes.

Public safety is around timeframes. Because Misako, you're focusing on an immediate concern that you have for your own personal safety. And you fear crime happening to or around you in this moment. And that's a problem that needs to be prioritized because it's happening in the here and now. And Yumi, you're talking about these longer term structural changes, right? Solving poverty, solving homelessness or houselessness, treating mental illness, healthcare. And so that presents a really interesting question. Are you, Yumi, saying that we should prioritize these longer-term social changes over the immediate fears of people like your mother who may not feel safe right now? And it's not just your mother, of course, right?

It's many people in a place like New York. And when people don't feel safe in the here and now, it has these ripple effects, right, on the economy, on businesses. And so is what you're saying that that feeling of not feeling safe now is less important than the longer term goal of fixing policing, changing policing? To answer your question, yes, I am prioritizing long term over immediate safety. And it's not that I don't want my mom to feel safe. It's just that it's not about individuals. I feel like we need to think about each other and who's at risk the most and how do we help them and if you can continually push that message that oh yes there's a lot of crime oh yes like but it is

but there are crimes i see what you want to do you want the future but also I mean, it's not just me. It's a lot of people who do not feel safe. It's a different time right now. But, you know, you're saying not to worry about the shootings that are going on right now. But the police don't stop the shootings. Well, if they're there, they might deter, you know, like prevent, you know, if they're there they might deter you know like prevent you know if they see a cop they'll like run the other way i mean if someone's really crazy and they don't care they don't care it might not work but you know if you get a guy that has a gun and wants to like go after an asian person but then they see a cop they might think twice i see i see that but i mean it prevents what what brings people to that position where they feel that they need to still because there's some lunatics and there's

some crazy people and there's some bad people they're like badass punks like out there yeah but i i think that's unfair to to generalize all these people who do these things just because, you know, the circumstances that they might be under. I cannot help that. But, you know, that's why there's the police department, the police that helps. No, that I know if I feel or like I know you're walking down the street and these two guys are going to attack you. You don't beat them. Right? Well, the thing is, when they see a police officer, they're going to stop. And it's a prevention.

Your mom is not alone, right? There are many people who are expressing this feeling in this moment because the rate of shootings, the rate of murders were up so significantly over the past year. the rate of shootings, the rate of murders were up so significantly over the past year. And there's this sense for people who don't want to cut funding to police that the long-term vision you're fighting for could have the short-term effect of making many people feel less safe. Are you willing to live with those ripple effects? people feel less safe. Are you willing to live with those ripple effects? So you're saying it takes a lot, like if we defund the police, okay, what if that defunding the police, that money gets to go towards more housing for houseless people who want it and,

you know, maybe resources for people who are using drugs. And that would maybe in the short term actually reduce the amount of fear you may have in the subway because there might be less people in the subway. So I don't think it's that necessarily long term. I think that there if we put money towards those to those agencies, I think that that would actually lead to you feeling more safe because they're able to go somewhere and they're able to get the things that they need to start a life or like, you know, have a house, get a job, you know, what we ascribe to be normal things. But why do we have so much faith in the police? Like, I just don't understand, like, why can't we put more faith into the other resources? And like, if we always put the other stuff on the back burner, like, then it's just going to continue to be like, oh, well, I feel more unsafe because there are more

houseless people in the subway or like, and it'll just continue to be the same back and forth. Well, I feel more unsafe and I feel more unsafe. And like, we're never going to ever be able to address those issues if we just continually just put all of our trust into the police. It kind of totally takes out of the conversation, like, well, why is the crime escalating? Right. It's a, you're describing a vicious cycle that will never get solved until the cycle breaks. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So are you going to go vote together?

Yeah, maybe so I can just vote for her. I'm just kidding. That's illegal. We'll see. We'll see. We'll do it. We'll do it. Thank you both. This is really interesting.

New York City polling places will be open until 9 p.m. tonight. Yumi is planning to vote for the leading progressive in the Democratic mayoral race, Maya Wiley. Meanwhile, Misako is considering voting for the leading pro-police candidate, Eric Adams. The outcome of the vote may not be known for weeks, but because about 70% of the city's electorate is Democratic, the winner of the Democratic primary will almost certainly go on to be elected mayor in the fall. We'll be right back. Here's what else you need to know today. In a unanimous decision on Monday,

the Supreme Court ruled against the NCAA in a closely watched case about its power over how student-athletes are compensated. The court ruled that the NCAA cannot prohibit modest education-related payments to student-athletes for things like scientific equipment, postgraduate scholarships, tutoring, and internships. But the Times reports that the ruling could undermine the NCAA's broader ban on paying college students for playing sports, something Justice Brett Kavanaugh hinted at in the ruling. The NCAA, he wrote, is, quote, not above the law. Today's episode was reported and produced by Jessica Chung, Rachel Quester, and Rob Zipko.

It was edited by Paige Cowett and Lisa Chow, contains original scoring by Marion Lozano and Brad Fisher, and was engineered by Chris Wood. That's it for The Daily. I'm Michael Barbaro. See you tomorrow.