The Daily - 'Rabbit Hole,' Episode 6: Impasse

Episode Date: May 23, 2020

Note: This episode contains strong language. Today, we’re sharing Episode 6 of “Rabbit Hole,” a New York Times audio series with the tech columnist Kevin Roose.In this episode, we hear from PewDiePie, one of the biggest and most polarizing YouTube celebrities. He sat down with our reporter to discuss how he’s coming to grips with his influence — and looking to the future.If you're tuning in to “Rabbit Hole” for the first time, start with the prologue. You can find more information about the podcast at nytimes.com/rabbithole.

From the New York Times, I'm Michael Barbaro. Today, Rabbit Hole. Episode 6. My name is Brad Pitt! Bye! your journalism job. Oh my god, our kids are listening to Elvis. We need to keep fighting back. The gunman stormed in. Subscribe to PewDiePie. So it's been a while since you did one of these, huh? It's been a while. It's been a long time.

How long? Probably two years, maybe. That's interesting. Yeah. Why now? Alright, so Felix decides to sit down and talk with you for his first interview since the whole Wall Street Journal controversy. Yeah. And I was curious, first of all, like just why he was doing this, like why he was sitting down with someone from the mainstream media after so long.

Because, you know, I've been like I've been asking for like two years. Here we are. And also like after following his career for so long and just seeing everything that's happened, I just wanted to know what he made of it all. I was actually like in preparing for this, going back and looking at some of your old, your old videos, like old, old, going back and looking at some of your old, your old video, like old, old,

old videos. Yeah. Sort of Minecraft days. Do you remember feeling sort of happy during that time? Like, was that a good time in your life? Yeah, I think so.

I think things were going pretty well. Things were going great. Watch more than I ever expected. Definitely. And then like 2015 and into 2016 i think there was sort of this larger cultural thing happening where like the line between the internet and the the like real world was sort of started to break down a bit yeah people started paying more attention to what's happening on youtube and do you feel like i i sort of remember from that time

that things were starting to get a little edgier, like there was sort of more incentives to try out edgier stuff? I think YouTube at that time was at a place where no one really knew where the limit was. And I think that's why it almost became, yeah, a lot of channels just pushing it as far as possible because there was no restrictions at the time, I think. And I think also my channel went through this I didn't only want it to be associated with kid humor even though edgy humor is a lot of childish but I think it's more stepping up to

teen humor do you feel like you recognize that there was a risk in getting sort of more into that space that there could be like a backlash um i think i was really uh not focused on that at all in retrospect i was pretty uh i'll start my word irresponsible about it i don't think i really looked at too much of the consequences do you remember like getting pushed back from anyone in your life that was like before the journal article like well i kind of wish i had some clearly i didn't but fans were just into it and they i think yeah everyone it's it's when you're in this space where people understand that it's a joke, you're in this area where everyone is on the same page. It's not really, no, I don't remember having that being. And was that how you sort of viewed like that period is just people joking and being sort of stuff that might look serious if you look back at it today, but at the time was just all joking?

Yes, I think so. Was there ever something that you like stopped yourself because you were like, oh, that's too edgy? Well, definitely the infamous sign. As Felix and I were talking, it became clear pretty quickly that like the things that he was doing in his videos, these kind of like edgy

experimental things the goal isn't to purposely push too much or makes people feel bad and i think that including this fiverr video with the death tall jew sign they all felt pretty low risk to him and how do you draw that line like how did you decide what was too edgy and what was just edgy enough? That's a good question. I mean, anything that would... I mean, the way me and my editors work is that we kind of go uncensored and then in the edit we'll definitely cut out most of the edgy jokes or whatever. If we recognize that someone might get offended or hurt

by it then there's no reason to intentionally put it in um i think that's the way we looked at it you're ready to go to the wall street journal like we're almost there anyway so okay when did you know that this was going to be a thing like as it was happening it went really fast i think just like two days before i heard about that whole thing and it was so it just seemed bizarre i was like well i couldn't possibly understand why it was a a thing even i i didn't think it was going to be a big deal either what was that day like for you like where were you doing It was on Valentine's Day. Me and my girlfriend had rented this little cottage.

And then, I mean, I can laugh about it now, I guess. But it was crazy. Extremely stressful. I didn't know what was going to happen. So you just spent the day on, like, calls with people? I spent the day being in this little cottage outside with no internet. And I told myself, okay, I should not check what is happening on Twitter right now. And then I go on Twitter and then there's like JK Rowling calling me a fascist.

And I'm like, how is this happening? This is crazy. And when you sort of were trying to figure out how to respond to that, were you torn between like, okay, on the one hand, like I probably should apologize for this. Yeah. Yeah. And I did apologize in the video. But also wanted to be like.

I also wanted to set the record straight. At least give my side of the story. And, you know, it was crazy because Wall Street Journal, they also came to my house to say we want to help you like give you a full story again it just felt kind of crazy so after the story after the story published they came back yeah and you said I said well I'll tell my story on on my channel and that's kind of what I how I saw it was there a moment where you're like fuck like what if what if they have a point and i i got too edgy and like was there were there moments of yeah of course definitely it wouldn't have

happened if i didn't push it too far obviously but i think the whole thing also that happened with wall street journal made people really strongly want to support me people felt like it was unjust what happened and they wanted to support the channel even more for that so i really felt like well maybe media doesn't want to write nice things about me but at least i have the support from so many people that it felt like it doesn't matter then I don't really care if that's the case I think also after the Wall Street Journal thing I sort of got labeled as a as a bad person and then that sort of line of the word just kept going I think is there one sort of piece of criticism

that stands out that you sort of wrestled with more than others? I think the constant association with the alt-right and politics in general has been really frustrating because that whole world feels so far away from me. So yeah, that's frustrating. I think any label, you know,

it seems pretty common to just label, throw labels around. Oh, he's this, he's that. And be called things that you don't think you are at all. What are your politics? I'm just curious. How do you identify, what issues are you passionate about like beyond youtube i think i'm more apolitical than anything but i'm probably

somewhere in between i don't know i mean i don't really feel passionate about politics i know that's a really lame reply i wish uh maybe i was but i am not that invested are there any politicians who excite you no like anywhere i could not name one no i don't know because you know there's this whole community of like conspiracy theorists and people who like think that you're secretly hiding i know conspiracy theorists is the right word for it yeah i, I was looking at, I have this whole log of messages from these Discord servers for these Allred guys, and they're saying stuff like, you know. Discord servers? Oh, yeah. Like, PewDiePie will red pill all his millennial and Gen Z subscribers. It will be glorious. I get the feeling that PewDiePie is far more red-pilled than he lets on, he's a great ally

stuff like that what is that? that's his conspiracy theory mumbo jumbo I think it's really cringy as well when people try it's annoying as well people trying to have me as some sort of symbol

that doesn't apply uh let's talk about subscriber pewber PewDiePie. Like, when you started, did you have any idea that it would become this whole meme that would, like... I think you know the answer. No. I thought it would be a fun joke for, like, two weeks, maybe, max. And now it's, like, six months later. Were there parts of it that you thought were funny? Like, the printer hack, or, like... Yeah, I think a lot of it that you thought were funny, like the printer hack or like?

Yeah, I think a lot of it was really funny. People, you know, putting up posters, putting up banners. And yeah, the printer hack was kind of pushing it, but it was still pretty funny. No one was hurt by it, at least. So Kevin, the timing of all this is that you met Felix just weeks after the shooting at Christchurch. Right. And not only was this his first interview with the mainstream media in years, but it was also the first time that anyone had really gotten to ask him about the attack. Walk me through that day and like where you were when you heard that this had happened. Yeah. I mean, it was like four in the morning. I rarely check my phone at that time, but I had got a bunch of messages and I was like,

barely conscious. And then obviously I saw what had happened and just this pit in my stomach. It was just awful to hear about that someone would go so far. What were some of the messages you got at 4 a.m.? It was a big mix of, fuck PewDiePie, now he's really gone too far. We need to shut him down.

Just this awful, like... and even people saying you know i don't think he's responsible but blah blah blah blah even though it's like it really really hurts it was it was a fucked up day it was a fucked up week it's been a fucked up month i mean fuck i feel bad even like oh it's so bad for me that he used my name when it's like people really affected by it. But it felt like I was dragged into, again, like this whole sphere of politics. Do you feel like the responsibility that you have? Because so many of your fans are young and

they're so passionate and whatever like do you feel like you've sort of gained a new I guess responsibility or ability to like shape the way those people see the world yeah obviously yeah it is a lot of responsibility how what do you think the responsibility is? well who I don't know exactly what I would say

but you know having such a large audience obviously it is a responsibility yeah i mean i stress out about publishing stuff in the new york times and we have four million subscribers you only have four million it's true um i one fallout one piece of fallout from

this Wall Street Journal thing and then some of the other stuff and then this news you don't think like there are a lot of people who don't follow you but who hear your name and think oh that guy's problematic or he's a neo-nazi or he's alright like how does that

affect you it is obviously tiresome Right. Like, how does that affect you? It is obviously tiresome to be associated with something that you're not. It's a lot more than I think I signed up for. Yeah. I don't want it to seem like I'm completely innocent either and I've just done nothing wrong and I've just been targeted and I don't think that's the case either but it does feel pretty unfair. I know also how people's minds kind of shift toward certain things and I hope that within the next maybe year or two people will have their mind changed because that's usually how

long it takes for people because your videos will change yeah yeah i think so i don't know what's what's your message to those people if you could like shout something from the rooftops and like hear everyone have everyone hear it just click on the latest video i upload and it's literally just me laughing at memes i don't really know so it's literally just like watch my stuff and you'll get it a lot of people are not going to watch your stuff right that's the problem i think these headlines yeah um i mean do you feel like you can do anything to set the record straight at this point? Or have you done pretty much all you can do? I can definitely set the record straight more, yeah. What would that look like?

I don't know yet. I think it's step by step. I don't think anyone's going to change their mind over one thing. I need to keep pointing it out. I think hopefully conversations like this helps as well i see it as a build block kind of i am sort of curious about like your relationship with the media and sort of i mean that's sort of a consistent theme of of the past couple years for you is that you feel like sort of the media has bad intentions when it comes to covering you,

that there's publications that consistently get things wrong. How have the past couple of years shaped or changed your views on the media? Well, a lot of times me calling out is when things have been said that I felt like were either one-sided or or flipped in a way that wasn't really fair and I think you know I should at least defend myself if those things happen it's very frustrating to see certain things published about you that you feel like that is not what is true about me at all I mean the hostility toward the media on not just your channel but like the subreddit and like

I just look through that stuff and I'm like dear god these people are like never gonna believe anything like it's like these are people I don't just reflexively distrust everything we do. I mean, I think it's because people who watch me know who I am and then they see me in this article that is so different. Obviously, they're not going to, they feel like it's unfair or that it's not correct. it's unfair or that it's not correct. I don't really know where the line is drawn of who controls that. But I think it's getting a bit tiring as well. I'm not really interested in having some sort of, I don't like the media sort of approach to things. That's not my intention.

And I think, yeah. Yeah. I hope at least I've grown a little bit to see past that even if an article isn't perfect, then it doesn't have to be a whole thing about it. I mean, let's be clear. You've made a lot of videos about the media.

I think my, I know it seems to be like your primary enemy sometimes. Let's put that out there. Yeah. I don't want it to seem like I'm, Oh, I'm sitting down with the media now. So now I'm going to be like cuddly wuddly over like.

I mean, that is a little bit how it feels. That's good then. I mean, I don't want to be too hostile, but I also feel like my genuinely like my opinion about a lot of it has changed over the years. I think going through all these kinds of controversies constantly. these kinds of controversies constantly. And obviously when I feel the need, I need to defend myself. I do, but I also think I'm getting to a point where I don't think it's going

anywhere. And Kevin, what did you leave this interview thinking about, especially around this question of why he finally talked with you? I mean, obviously, like, he doesn't need me to get a message out to the public. Like, he has millions more subscribers than The New York Times. But by talking to me when he did, it almost felt like he was proposing a truce. He was saying that, like, that era of my career is over. And I'm Hello. I wanted to talk seriously and honestly for a moment about my thoughts on what's been going on for the past couple months.

And hopefully you can get a better understanding. And a few days after our interview. Something happened that I don't think anyone would have predicted. The Christchurch shooter said, subscribe to PewDiePie. Felix posted a new video. I think it's time to end the subscribe to PewDiePie movement or meme. Where he directly asked his fans to end the subscribe to PewDiePie meme. To have my name associated with something so unspeakably vile

has affected me in more ways than I let shown. I just didn't want to address it right away and I didn't want to give the terrorists any more attention. I didn't want to make it about me because I don't think it has anything to do with me. Not long after that. Nine years ago, I uploaded my first video onto YouTube. This is what that video looked like.

Felix hit a hundred million subscribers. I won't bore you with every step of the way of the journey. It it's been long. It had its ups and downs. And to celebrate, I made a lot of mistakes on the way, but I've grown. He reflected on how he got there.

And I feel like I've finally come in terms with the responsibility I have as a creator. About 100 million subs too late, but you know. But the channel's done a lot of good too. And also pledged to give a $50,000 donation to the Anti-Defamation League,

which is one of the organizations that had criticized him for making Hitler Nazi jokes. We did it! I want to thank all the people I work with over the past couple years, but most importantly, I want to thank the pros. And yet again, it sparked a controversy. Stop! I just wanted to interrupt this video because I need to make an announcement.

Did you guys see the video I made where I celebrated 100 million subscribers? It was the video I was really- But this time, it wasn't the mainstream media coming after him. I made the mistake of picking a charity that I was advised instead of picking a charity that I'm personally passionate about, which is 100% my fault.

It was the internet. The whole internet just didn't believe it. Like, why is he donating to this charity? Look at his face. Full conspiracy mode. Some of his fans claimed that the Anti-Defamation League was too partisan. Websites and comment sections filled up with all these conspiracy theories, saying, like, PewDiePie is being blackmailed into this donation. I'm sorry for all the confusion, and I'm sorry for messing this up.

That's what I do. So, he apologized. And took back his $50,000 pledge. Good one. Here we go, guys. Historical moment. My first video ever was a Minecraft video. And in the midst of all this,

nearly a decade after it first brought him attention. God, after all these years. Felix uploaded a video of himself playing Minecraft. Is that a freaking horse? That's a freaking horse. Oh my God, there's horses in Minecraft? Can I ride it? Look it's tiny horse. Hello tiny horse. This is amazing. Have you ever wondered why we go to war?

Or why you never seem to be able to get out of debt, why there is poverty, division, and crime? What if I told you there was a reason for it all? What if I told you it was done on purpose? What if I told you that those who were corrupting the world, poisoning our food, and igniting conflict were, themselves, about to be permanently eradicated from the earth? You might think that an idealistic fantasy. Well, let me tell you a story.