The Daily - Senators Unleash on R.F.K. Jr.

Episode Date: September 5, 2025

In an extraordinarily tense showdown on Thursday, senators of both parties confronted Health Secretary Robert F. Kennedy Jr. over his vaccine policies, his firing of the director of the C.D.C., and the growing list of federal health officials who have resigned in protest of his leadership.Sheryl Gay Stolberg, who covers health policy for The Times, explains what it was like in the room and describes what seems like a turning point in the relationship between Congress and Mr. Kennedy.Guest: Sheryl Gay Stolberg, a correspondent based in Washington covering health policy for The New York Times.Background reading: A defiant Kennedy defended vaccine changes and the shake-up at the C.D.C.Some states said they would go their own way on vaccine policy.Will the C.D.C. survive?For more information on today’s episode, visit nytimes.com/thedaily. Transcripts of each episode will be made available by the next workday. Photo: Tierney L. Cross/The New York Times Unlock full access to New York Times podcasts and explore everything from politics to pop culture. Subscribe today at nytimes.com/podcasts or on Apple Podcasts and Spotify.

From New York Times, I'm Michael Mubaro. This is the Daily. I don't think Robert Kennedy should be within a million miles of this job. Today, in an extraordinarily tense showdown on Thursday. You're so wrong on your facts. You're interrupting me. And, sir, you're a charlatan. That's what you are.

Health Secretary Robert F. Kennedy, Jr., was confronted by senators of both parties. Over his vaccine for children, I'm not making things up. Over his vaccine policies, his ouster of the director of the CDC, and the growing list of federal health officials who have resigned in protest of his leadership. Everybody is corrupt, but you? Is that what we're looking at? I don't think so. I don't even know what you're talking about.

My colleague, Cheryl Gay-Stolberg, was a bit of it. in the room and describes what seems like a turning point in the relationship between Congress and Kennedy. You are a hazard to the health of the American people. Can I respond to that, you, you, you, no, I'm, I'm, I'm, it's Friday, September 5th. Cheryl, this was a remarkable hearing. Remarkable, I would say, for the level of anger in both directions, witness and senators, remarkable because of the accusations that were traded and the sheer number of times that people were called liars. And almost all of it stemmed from decisions that the Secretary of Health, Robert F. Kennedy Jr., has made around vaccines, especially in the past few weeks. And where that leaves public health. in the United States.

It was extraordinary. First of all, it's very rare in the Capitol, if ever, to see a witness call a senator a liar. Right. And Kennedy comes from a very particular place, right? He grew up in this Democratic family. He was playing in the Oval Office, you know, when he was a little boy and his uncle John was president. And he feels no compunction about treating these senators as his east. equal. He does not come seeking favors. He comes lobbying insults.

Well, just give me the context, as you see it, in which this hearing arrives. Well, it's been seven months since Kennedy was sworn in by President Trump as Health and Human Services Secretary. When he was confirmed, there was a lot of pause about him on the part of Democrats, but also some Republicans, about his views on vaccines. Many people would call him anti-vaccine. He insists he's not anti-vaccine. He's pro-safety. But nonetheless, senators were very concerned. And Kennedy made some very explicit promises. To get confirmed, right. To get confirmed, he said he was not going to take away anybody's vaccines, and he was not going to discourage vaccination. And that seems like a very important promise to have made for skeptical senators from both

parties. Yes, very much so. But in the seven months since, Kennedy has issued a very lukewarm endorsement of the measles vaccine during a measles outbreak that is the worst in this country in 20 years. He canceled $500 million in government contracts for MRNA vaccines. That's the technology that was used to create the COVID vaccines. Kennedy also announced that COVID vaccines would no longer be recommended for healthy children or adults under 65, which will make them effectively harder to get because some pharmacies will require prescriptions and some insurers might not insure them.

Right, that's a major rollback in the government's recommendation for COVID vaccines. It is. And on top of that, he fired all 17 members of the panel of experts who advise the CDC on vaccine policy, and he replaced them with his own people, many of whom are vaccine skeptics like he is. But the big thing, the thing that caused a huge uproar and chaos at the CDC is that last week Kennedy orchestrated the firing of the director of the CDC just one month after she had been confirmed by the Senate. And the question among members of both parties is, did all of this amount to Kennedy breaking his promise not to make it harder for Americans to get vaccines. And that's the context in which this hearing played out.

Well, Cheryl, take us inside this hearing room and describe how this hearing starts to unfold. This hearing will come to order. So this was a hearing before the Senate Finance Committee, which has jurisdiction over the Health and Human Services Department. Today we meet to hear from U.S. Department of Health and Human Services Secretary, Robert F. Kennedy, Jr., and it was ostensibly to give Kennedy a chance to testify on President Trump's 2026 budget proposal. Mr. Secretary, I look forward to hearing from you today about the administration's efforts to make America healthy again.

But everybody knew that's not what it was really about. It was always going to be about vaccines. It was always going to be about vaccines. Thank you very much. Biden. Right away the Democrats came out swinging. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. As the committee gathers today, the United States is in the midst of a health care calamity. Ron Wyden, the top Democrat on the committee, kick things off. It's been obvious from the start that Robert Kennedy's primary interest is to take vaccines away from

Americans. During his confirmation process, he claimed to be pro-safety and pro-science, but his actions reveal a steadfast commitment to elevating junk science and fringe conspiracies. He right away goes through this long list of things that he says Kennedy has done to endanger the health of all Americans. Families are confused. They're scared about who to trust about their health care. Not only that, he accused Kennedy of lying to the committee previously? I think it is unfortunate that I have to do this, but given the unprecedented nature of the witness's behavior, I would ask now that the committee formally swear in Robert Kennedy

as a witness. And took the extraordinary step of saying he wanted Kennedy sworn in formally so that he would have to vow to tell the truth under oath. Isn't that kind of a presumed state of testifying before? for Congress? What exactly is Wyden asking for? Well, it was kind of an insult to Kennedy, frankly. It is a presumed state, and once someone is a cabinet secretary, it is presumed that they are going to come in and testify truthfully. Wyden is in effect telling Kennedy and his colleagues, I don't believe you're going to be truthful with us. Senator Wyden, I will personally

object and will reject your request. We will treat this witness as we treat all of the other administration witnesses who come before us. And the chairman of the committee, Mike Crapo, Republican of Idaho, immediately shot it down and said, no, we're not doing that. But Wyden just went on and continued to press Kennedy and put him on the spot. Mr. Chairman, I've made it clear. I think that Secretary Kennedy is dead set on making it harder for children to get vaccines and that kids are going to die because of it.

And this really set the tone. for the hearing. I hope that you will tell the American people how many preventable child deaths are an acceptable sacrifice for enacting an agenda that I think is fundamentally cruel

and defies common sense. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Do I got a reply? And if Kennedy wasn't angry when he walked into the room, he was certainly angry after this. Senator, you've sat in that chair for how long? 20, 25 years, while the

chronic disease, and our children went up to 76%. And you said nothing. You never asked the question, why it's happening? Why is this happening? And Kennedy's response to widen, Cheryl, and this comes up many times in this hearing, especially when it comes to the Democrats, is that in Kennedy's mind,

senators responsible for overseeing America's health care system have allowed America to become a sicker and sicker. sicker country over time, and therefore, in Kennedy's mind, have failed to do their job. In his telling, they've upheld a bad status quo, which he says he's trying to fix, and part of that is by questioning who gets what vaccine and if they really need it. Yes, I would add to that, and I would say in Kennedy's mind, the CDC has presided over a rise in chronic disease. If we don't end this chronic disease, we are the sickest country in the world.

That's why we have to fire people, the CDC. And it's the CDC that needs to be cleared out and reorganized because they have failed Americans. And the senators who oversaw the CDC were complicit in that failure. They did not do their job. This was their job to keep us healthy. But what becomes clear is that the Democrats on this committee don't really want to have that conversation about the CDC, about chronic illness in this country, at least not in this moment. They want to keep talking about what they see as Kennedy's broken promises on vaccines. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Yeah, and you really saw that when Senator Elizabeth Warren questioned Kennedy. Then last week, you announced the COVID-19 vaccine is no longer approved for healthy people under the age of 65. She came at him really hard and said, you have made it harder for Americans to get vaccines. Anybody can get the booster. I'm sorry? Anybody can get it, Senator. He said, I didn't take away anybody's vaccines. You're wrong.

I didn't do that. You just changed the classification of the COVID vaccine. I'm not taking them away from people, Senator. It takes it away if you can't get it from your pharmacy. And she said, yes, you did because it's harder for pharmacies to give these COVID vaccines out when the CDC isn't recommending them. It's harder for insurers to cover them. No, they can't walk into a pharmacy the way they could last month and get access to a vaccine.

It depends on the states. A year ago, they can still get it. Everybody can get it. Everybody can get it, Senator. So look, poor people might not be able to afford them. So in effect, you have cut off people's access to vaccines. And he just kept saying over and over again, no, I didn't. No, I didn't.

Anybody who wants a vaccine can get one. We should say, Times reporting has found that, to a degree, Warren is correct. Kennedy doesn't want to accept that. But he's saying, look, there's a reason why we are taking away the recommendation that healthy people get. these vaccines. And I want to engage you on that, Cheryl. He's saying, we did this because these COVID booster shots have never been put through clinical trials. We're not going to recommend a product for which there's no clinical data for that indication. Is that what I should be doing?

And he's saying, I don't want the government recommendation to tell people to get a vaccine that hasn't gone through that. And as best I can tell, he is right about that, no? He is right about that, but it's kind of a catch-22. Michael. The original COVID vaccines went through clinical trials. But once you come around to boosters, a booster is a seasonal shot, just like a flu vaccine that we get every year. And they adjust it to match the current variant that is in circulation. If you do a clinical trial on a booster, by the time that trial is done, the virus has already mutated and the vaccine is not useful. Right. To finish the metaphor, the flu season is over. Exactly. So that argument does not quite add up. Gotcha. Warren did something else notable, which was to demand that Secretary Kennedy explain exactly why he had tried to fire the director of the CDC, the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention.

You tell the head of the CDC that if she refused to sign off on your changes to the childhood vaccine schedule, that she had to resign. And he said something very interesting. No, I told her that she had to resign because I asked her, are you a trustworthy person? And she said no. He said that he met with Susan Menares, the director of the CDC. And he asked her, are you a trustworthy person? And she said no.

So he fired her. So if you had an employee who told you they weren't trustworthy, Would you ask them to resign, Senator? So I'm sorry, but this is not what she has said publicly. She has said she was talking about that. So you're saying she's lying? Yes. Which kind of doesn't make a lot of sense.

Right. It doesn't exactly match human nature to imagine a senior government health official walking into her boss's office and saying, no, I'm not trustworthy. Right. So doing my due diligence, I asked her lawyers, you know, is this what happened? And they said, no, it's false and patently ridiculous. And it feels like this moment starts to make clear that for the Democrats on this committee, this hearing is an exercise in delegitimizing Kennedy as Secretary of Health by pointing out what they see as his dishonesty, in some cases what they see as his incompetence.

And as this exchange lays bare, a kind of lack of credibility. The suggestion that the CDC director offered herself up is not trustworthy. Right. And also a lack of command of the facts. You know, Senator Mark Warner of Virginia asked Kennedy very pointedly, Do you accept the fact that a million Americans died from COVID? Do you know how many people died of COVID during the pandemic? I don't know how many. You're the Secretary of Health and Human Services.

You don't have any idea how many Americans died from COVID? I don't think anybody knows that because there was so much data chaos coming out of the CDC and there was so many perverse incentives. And these are models. You don't know the answer of how many Americans from COVID. This is the Secretary of Health and Human Services. Do you think the vaccine? But Kennedy, frankly, was making a different point.

He was questioning the data. He was saying, well, you know, they may have reported a million, but basically, I don't believe it. Mm-hmm. That didn't satisfy Senator Warner. How can you be that ignorant? It seemed to me like Democrats were carefully orchestrating their case that Kennedy is a danger to the health of Americans. Each one of them kind of taking a different aspect of what he did. with vaccines. And it wasn't really a surprise that Democrats attacked Kennedy in this way.

The big question was, what would the Republicans say? You know, President Trump memorably said that he was going to let Bobby, as he calls him, go wild on health. And the question in my mind was, did Republicans think that Kennedy may have gone a little too wild? And some of them think that he has. We'll be right back. So, Cheryl, let's turn to how these Republicans at this hearing decide to handle Kennedy and his approach to vaccines. So, Michael, there were two kinds of Republicans at this hearing. There were the unsurprising Republicans.

President Trump and Secretary Kennedy have made a steadfast commitment to make America healthy again. Who wanted to talk about everything but vaccines. appreciate the comments you've made about the Rural Health Transformation Program. They asked Kennedy about rural health care. Hearing you told me that you agreed to leave farming regulations about agriculture policy. Do you believe COVID-19 was politicized? Yeah, the whole process was politicized. They were basically throwing softballs.

The surprising Republicans were the ones who really, questioned him hard on vaccine policy and on the decisions that he had made. And where should we start with those senators? Senator Cassidy. I think you have to begin with Senator Bill Cassidy. Thank you. I'll try and restore a little calm here. And I'm approaching this as a doctor, not as a senator.

He's a Republican from Louisiana. He's a doctor. He's chairman of the Senate Health Committee. Cassidy is a fierce proponent of vaccination. and back during the confirmation process, Cassidy was agonizing over whether or not to confirm Kennedy. I am concerned about children's health, senior's health, all of our health. Ultimately, Cassidy decided to vote for Kennedy.

But what we saw on Thursday is that he is still deeply uneasy with Kennedy. And he really tried to entrap Kennedy almost by bringing President Trump, who oversaw the development of the COVID vaccines, and pitting him against Kennedy, who has been so critical of the COVID vaccines. Just explain exactly how Cassidy is trying to pit Trump and Kennedy against each other. President Trump deserves a Nobel Prize for Operation Warp Speed. Cassidy says Trump deserves a Nobel Prize for Operation Warp Speed, the fast-track vaccine initiative that produced the COVID vaccines in the first place.

We save millions of lives globally, trillions of dollars. We reopened economies, an incredible accomplishment. And he wants to know, Mr. Kennedy, do you agree? Mr. Secretary, do you agree with me that the president deserves a Nobel Prize for Operation Warp Speed? Absolutely, Senator. So let me ask you. So Kennedy says, yes, absolutely, Senator, I do think he should win a Nobel Prize. and Cassidy is not buying it.

You engage in multiple lawsuits attempting to restrict access to the COVID vaccine. It surprises me that you think so highly of Operation Warp Speed when as an attorney you attempted to restrict access. I'm happy to explain why. I have three minutes and 30 seconds left. It also surprises me. Right. Cassidy is saying you can't simultaneously claim that, Operation Warp Speed and Trump's COVID vaccines are this monumental achievement and then do all these things that cast aspersions on the COVID vaccine, the technology behind it.

He's saying you can't have it both ways. Right, but Cassidy himself is trying to have it both ways. He's trying to make nice to President Trump saying he deserves a Nobel Prize, but he's also trying to lean hard into Trump's health secretary. and push him in a direction toward vaccines that he doesn't want to go. Right. The only way to criticize Kennedy in this moment is by somehow simultaneously praising Trump. Exactly. Senator Barrasol.

Thanks, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Secretary, thanks for being... And we see another Republican senator, also a doctor, John Barrasso of Wyoming, use exactly the same strategy. I believe one of President Trump's greatest achievements was his bold and successful actions on COVID. But this wasn't the first time an American president acted boldly to address disease and vaccines. He compares President Trump to George Washington during the Revolutionary War when Washington ordered all of his troops to be inoculated against smallpox. And like President

Trump, I believe President Washington acted decisively to protect Americans' lives at a time of great national peril. He says, I support vaccines. Vaccines work. Secretary Kennedy, in your confirmation hearings, you promise to uphold the highest standards for vaccines. Since then, I've grown deeply concerned. The public has seen measles outbreaks. But now he says, I'm very concerned about you, Secretary Kennedy. Americans don't know who to rely on. He tells him, I'm hearing from physicians, from parents, back home in Wyoming.

They're worried. They're confused. They don't want these infectious diseases to come back. If we're going to make America healthy again, we can't allow public health to be undermined. So could you explain what steps you're going to be taking to ensure vaccine guidance is clear, evidence-based, and trustworthy? We're going to make it clear, evidence-based, and trustworthy for the first time in history. And so suddenly, with this very pointed set of questions from Senator Barrasso, we see that Senator Cassidy is no longer alone. in being kind of openly anguished over whether or not Kennedy's approach to vaccines is tolerable.

Right, and there's a third senator. I'm not a doctor. I'm not a trial lawyer. I'm a boring management consultant. The third Republican, Senator Tom Tillis of North Carolina, who takes a slightly different tack. He says, hey, I'm a little confused here, Secretary Kennedy, by what you're doing. A month ago, when we voted to confirm the CDC director, you told us she was brilliant and terrific and you trusted her. I don't see how you go over four weeks from a public health expert with unimpeachable scientific credentials, a longtime champion of maha values, caring and compassionate and brilliant microbiologists, and four weeks later, fire her. How did you have this turnabout?

all of a sudden, what caused this? So as somebody who advised executives on hiring strategies, number one, I would suggest in the interview, you ask them if they're truthful rather than four weeks after we took the time of the U.S. Senate to confirm the person just... And he ticks off a number of questions sort of in that vein. I do also believe that some of your statements seem to contradict what you said in the prior hearing. You said you're going to empower the scientists at HHS to do their job. I'd just like to see evidence where you've done that.

He's saying that he is, frankly, confused by Kennedy's words and his actions and whether or not they match up. You'll have the opportunity to submit written responses to questions, which I'm going to reference in a minute, and you could make any further statements that you would like to make at that point. I think I'll have mercy on everybody here and let us adjourn. All right. Wise choice. Cheryl, when this hearing was over, what felt genuinely knew about what had happened in this room

was, and you'd said this earlier, not that Democrats are disgusted with RFK because they were disgusted from the moment he was nominated. And, yes, their disgust has intensified. It was the Republican dismay with Kennedy, the open dismay and the articulation of a strategy that seemed aimed to discredit Kennedy to a degree. And the question is, where does that lead? If Trump were too ever sour on Kennedy and to push a matter's health secretary, that would be enormously

consequential. But we have no evidence that that is ever going to happen. The Make America Healthy Again movement is exceptionally influential, and it feels like a tent pull of Trump's coalition at this point, just really important to him. And so what seems more likely is Kennedy will stay in this job and keep pushing the entire Republican Party towards greater skepticism and criticism of vaccines. Yeah, I mean, I think we're already seeing that. We're already seeing the partisan split over vaccination now playing out in the states. Just this week, Florida announced that it would be the first state to eliminate its childhood school

vaccine requirements. And just to talk about what a big deal that is, I mean, Florida not asking students to get measles vaccine, polio vaccine, hepatitis vaccine, would be a very meaningful change to a hugely populous state. That's right. Not only that, a populous state, but a state with a lot of elderly people, a state with a big tourist industry. And we know that when vaccination rates dip. Infectious disease comes back. At the same time, a collection of blue states have also said they're going to reject CDC vaccine recommendations in favor of their own stricter or more aggressive recommendations for vaccination. Those states are Oregon, Washington, and California. They have kind of banded together in a coalition to put forth their own public health recommendations. And also Massachusetts

has said, it will put forth its own public health recommendations and no longer rely on those issued by the federal government. Right. And in a sense, you're seeing states already scrambling to inhabit this new world that Robert F. Kennedy Jr. and his skeptical approach to vaccines has created, some are formally adopting his skepticism like Florida has, others, Washington, California, Oregon, are racing to insulate themselves from it.

But clearly those actions crystallized just how much local governments now feel like they're living in a new world and gets Kennedy's world. Yes. I mean, for nearly 70 years since the CDC was established, it has been the public health authority for the nation. It can't set policy for the nation.

Vaccine policy is the province of the states. but states have always followed the CDC's recommendations. And we are now seeing that fall apart. And here in Washington, there's kind of a reckoning going on among these Republicans who all voted for Kennedy seven months ago, at least one, Cassidy, with serious reservations. who are now recognizing that the thing they feared is actually happening, and it's too late to stop it.

Well, Cheryl, thank you very much. We appreciate it. Thank you, Michael. We'll be right back. Here's what else you need, to know today. The Times reports that the Justice Department has opened a fraud investigation into Federal Reserve Governor Lisa Cook, escalating President Trump's efforts to fire her. The White House has accused Cook of falsely claiming in mortgage applications that two separate properties were both her primary residence. But on Thursday, the investigative news site ProPontor.

Publica reported that at least three members of Trump's own cabinet have committed the same act in mortgage documents, suggesting that Trump's outrage over Cook's conduct is highly selective. A quick reminder, we're bringing you something new on Sundays. All this fall, my colleague Gilbert Cruz, talks arts and culture with a rotating cast of critics editors, reporters, and writers. This week, just in time for the new academic year, Gilbert speaks with Lewis Sacker, author of the Wayside School Series and the novel Holes,

and to an editor at the Times Book Review, Sadie Stein, about the books that can make kids fall in love with reading. Today's episode was produced by Rob Zipko, Olivia Natt, and Alex Stern. It was edited by Rachel Quester and was engineered by Chris Wood. That's it for the daily. I'm Michael Barbaro. See you on Monday.