The Daily - She Used to Be Friends With JD Vance

Episode Date: August 5, 2024

Senator JD Vance, the Republican vice-presidential candidate, and Sofia Nelson, his transgender classmate at Yale Law School, forged a bond that lasted a decade. In 2021, Mr. Vance’s support for an Arkansas ban on gender-affirming care for minors led to their falling out.Sofia Nelson, now a public defender in Detroit, discussed Mr. Vance’s pivot, politically and personally, with The Times.  Background reading: JD Vance, an unlikely friendship, and how it ended.Nelson shared with The Times about 90 emails and text messages with Mr. Vance. Here are some of the most revealing moments in their correspondence.How Yale propelled Mr. Vance’s career. For more information on today’s episode, visit nytimes.com/thedaily. Transcripts of each episode will be made available by the next workday.

Sophia, can I ask you to read this email from J.D. Vance, starting with the date? Okay. June 29th, 2016. Hey, Sophs. Here is an excerpt from my book. I send this to you not just to brag, but because I'm sure if you read it, you'll notice reference to an extremely progressive lesbian. I'm sure most readers will have no idea who it refers to, but you will. I recognize now that this may not accurately reflect how you think of yourself, and for that, I'm really sorry.

I hope you're not offended. Love you, JD. And can you read your reply to that email? Hey, buddy. First of all, congratulations. Second, thank you for reaching out and being sweet. Third, it'd take a lot more to offend me than that. How do you think I survived growing up in a similar place as you, gasp, even going to public school as a half-Mexican,

non-evangelical tomboy? While we see and care about many of the same problems, I know we often come to different conclusions about how to best address them. I know we often come to different conclusions about how to best address them. But what I value in you is your genuineness, curiosity, kindness, and desire to make a difference. And I consider you a great friend. Love, Sophia. How does it make you feel to read those exchanges now? This relationship we had of mutual respect across the political divide has completely vanished.

And I think it's sad for me personally, but I think it's also sad for the country. Why sad for you personally? It's heartbreaking to see somebody you respected and cared about turn on you and your neighbors, especially in the context of knowing that's not who he was. And that's disappointing to see anyone do, obviously. From The New York Times, I'm Michael Barbaro. This is The Daily. As J.D. Vance has dramatically transformed himself from a vocal Trump critic into a Trump-style candidate and now into Trump's running mate, Few people have witnessed that change from closer up than Vance's friend from law school, Sophia Nelson.

Over the past week, Nelson has decided to speak out against Vance, a decision that began when she gave The Times a trove of personal correspondence with Vance from their years-long friendship. Today, I speak with Nelson about what exactly she's doing, why she decided to do it, and what she's learned about who J.D. Vance really is. really is. It's Monday, August 5th. So, I want to better understand the story of what happened to your relationship with J.D. Vance and what ultimately led you over the past few weeks to share a lot of your personal emails and messages that you exchanged with Vance with the New York Times. But I want to start with the story of your friendship.

When did you first meet J.D. Vance? J.D. and I met in the fall of 2010 during orientation at Yale Law School. We were both assigned to the same small group, which is 16 individuals. And so we took all of our first semester courses together. And we were encouraged by the university to bond with that small group. They did so much as pay for us to essentially socialize together. from the Midwest, coming from working class communities, going to public school K through 12, which, you know, is not the norm at Yale Law School. Right. There's a lot of people who go to very fancy private schools.

Yeah. Most people at Yale Law School are coastal elites. And so J.D. and I are not those things. You know, J.D. grew up in Middletown, Ohio. I grew up in Wayland, Michigan. those things. You know, J.D. grew up in Middletown, Ohio. I grew up in Wayland, Michigan. And the collapse of the auto industry in 2007, 2008 devastated my hometown. And obviously, the opioid epidemic that came after that has similarly wreaked havoc. And we bonded over that. And I think we both, you know, were a little shocked by the level of wealth and nepotism present at these elite universities. I remember he was deeply hurt by a comment that one of our professors made that people who went to state schools tended to perform less well in the Yale Law School environment. Because he had gone to a state school. Right. He had gone to Ohio State. And my reaction was, J.D., this man is so out of touch. Don't listen to anything he has to say. Obviously, there's no monopoly on intelligence by the Ivy Leagues. Do you remember what he said in response when you tried to console him?

by the Ivy Leagues. Do you remember what he said in response when you tried to console him? I think he was hell-bent on proving them wrong, which was totally within his right, and I think he was very successful at that. What was his personality in this place? Just give us a sense of him. I mean, the JD that I became friends with

was sarcastic, incredibly curious, motivated, and he loved talking with everyone he could get his hands on about political philosophy and the political issues of our time. And I loved doing the same thing. and a commitment to talking across difference and a desire to solve real problems. You know, my parents and my friends from home are so surprised that, oh, this person that you've connected with is on the opposite end of the political spectrum from you. And I was like, yeah, but culturally, we're very similar. And how would you describe his political views at the time? Where was he then on the ideological continuum? I mean, he was a bit of an iconoclast, right? He wasn't necessarily beholden to a specific ideology at the time. I thought he was somewhat creative in his thinking. He was a voracious reader. He was a conservative who was disillusioned with

the culture wars and thought that they were destructive and a distraction. It's interesting that you said he's disillusioned with the culture wars. And just to make sure I understand that, he just doesn't think there's much point in having long battles about questions of, you know, sexuality or identity that just didn't feel useful to him. That was my belief at the time. And, you know, he certainly had a diverse group of friends. I think he was skeptical of the identity politics of the left. And he just didn't understand why that needed to be a main topic of conversation. Because why can't we just get to know a person for who they are?

And, Sophia, how did you identify at the time during this period of law school? He called you a progressive lesbian in his book, which I take it from his wording is not quite accurate. Yeah, I certainly identified as a progressive and still do. However, lesbian was not the word that I would have used to describe myself at the time, nor do I use that word now. And I have a trans identity and a queer identity. Labels are not that important to me, and I wasn't offended when he called me a lesbian, and I wasn't offended when he called me a lesbian, and I wouldn't be offended if someone called me a lesbian today. As long as people are well-intentioned, the language that they use is not going to set me off.

Well, given that, I'm curious how he felt about you and your identity in this period. Was that ever tense or in any way awkward? Did his politics ever become in conflict with who you were? Absolutely not. You know, my partner at the time was a woman, and we were invited to their wedding, and we went together. To the wedding of J.D. Vance and his now wife. Yes. And when we spoke, even after law school, he would ask me how she was doing. He showed interest in, you know, cared about my relationship and my well-being. And I cared about his. And, you know, Usha was also in our small group. His wife. think it even crossed their mind to care if someone was gay or trans or you just get to know people for who they are. And I had gender affirming surgery in 2012 while I was in law school. And my partner at the time emailed my closest friends, letting them know that that's what I was doing.

And that, you know, when I came back to school, it would be really nice if, you know, they supported me in my recovery. And that was very sweet of her to do that. And I remember him bringing me baked goods and we had a brief conversation that was essentially like, I don't really know what top surgery is or why you did that, but, you know, whatever you need to do to be happy, like, I support you, essentially. And it meant a lot to me because, you know, I obviously had a lot of, or maybe it's not obvious, but I had a lot of queer friends in law school, and I didn't need to do a lot of explaining about why I was getting surgery to them. And J.D. wasn't asking me to explain either.

wasn't asking me to explain either. I don't need anyone to understand why I needed to get surgery or exactly the complexity of my identities if they can treat me with respect and kindness. So you and J.D. Vance both graduate from Yale Law School.

You both leave New Haven. You become this public defender in Detroit. He goes off to a law firm. Did you think that you would stay close and keep in touch? Yes, I did. He challenged me intellectually intellectually and I felt like we both benefited from discussing current events and ideas, knowing that we wouldn't usually agree. I really thought JD helped me think carefully about the issues that I was seeing in my work, and I was hopeful that I

was doing the same for him. You were making each other smarter and sharper. I want to talk about that because I've now looked at this correspondence that you shared with The Times that occurs after law school, and you two very much become adult pen pals, right? You're kind of processing everything in the world. Some of the most divisive subjects of our time, you talk about race, policing, affirmative action. And as makes sense, given what we've talked about here, you come at them from different perspectives, but you're both trying to find a lot of common ground,

and you often do. And I'm curious, what do you remember most from those exchanges? What stands out to you from them? It gave me hope, because at the time, our politics was starting to shift nationally, away from any desire to build consensus. His thoughtfulness and our relationship gave me hope that that wasn't a lost cause. Do you mind if I engage with some of the specific things he said in those emails? Because I think it will help listeners get a feel for what he's saying and better understand your reactions to them. Yes. Let me start with the post-Michael Brown exchanges that you guys are having. Yes.

Vance writes to you that he thinks it's important that there be greater accountability for police officers. And he writes, quote, the body camera movement and anything that puts cops back in the mindset of service and protection instead of control and coercion. And he goes on to say, I hate the police. Given the number of negative experiences I've had in the past few years, I can't imagine what a black guy goes through. And then he talks to you about the subject of that horrible mass shooting in Charleston. And he expresses bewilderment that anyone would ever try to disentangle the presence of the Confederate flag

over the South Carolina Statehouse from what happened in that shooting. And he talks to you about reparations for black Americans. And he says, quote, I will say this, whatever practical or moral problems I have with compensating the ancestors of slaves or compensating, quote, black people as a giant collective,

I have at least been convinced of the virtue of compensating modern victims who suffered from redlining or denial of federal benefits or something similar. It makes sense to me, he tells you, that black veterans who never got their GI Bill benefits are owed something. I mean, these are very moderate, highly nuanced, compassionate viewpoints. Completely. And I remember responding specifically to the reparations discussion, because I had sent him Ta-Nehisi Coates' piece in The Atlantic, and that was what launched this conversation. I responded something along the lines of, I think that's really big. If you,

conservative J.D. Vance, now see that the government has taken action to, in modern times, widen the wealth gap between white and black Americans through policy and that the government needs to take action to remedy that. And he was like, well, it shouldn't be. I want to talk specifically about Donald Trump because one thing that really stands out in your emails with J.D. Vance is how much you two agree on Donald Trump as he emerges onto the political scene. This is 2015, 2016.

How did he represent his feelings about Trump in that period? The public record on this is extensive, and it's no different from what he said to me personally, which is a recognition that Trump was fanning the flames of racism. And he was very concerned about the effect of that rhetoric on people's sense of feeling included in their country and their own personal safety. And that came up in, you know, I live in Detroit. Metro Detroit houses the largest Muslim population in the United States. And one of my friends at the time told me that some of the women in her life that wear hijab

were feeling as harassed and scared around Trump's rhetoric, doing basic things like going to the grocery store, as they had felt in the wake of 9-11. And you told him that? I did. And he responded with empathy and concern. Right. In his emails to you, he's pretty unambiguous in his disgust for Trump in this period. I mean, he writes to you that Trump is a disaster.

He actually says a effing disaster. He calls him a bad man and, quote, a morally reprehensible human being. What did you think about that? I thought it reflected his core values. While we differed on tax policy and how big or small government should be, we agreed that nobody should be vilified and dehumanized and that talking about Americans or non-Americans in callous and cruel terms was amoral, right? things I could find to love about him if I was his family member or friend. But the moral injury that his rhetoric has wrecked on this country is devastating. And J.D. and I agreed on that at the time. I mean, we shared a belief that what Donald Trump was trying to do was morally reprehensible and dangerous. We'll be right back. We'll be right back.

So after Trump was elected, was there a point where you noticed that the kinds of conversations that you had been having with J.D. Vance and the J.D. Vance you were starting to see out in the world were diverging? It wasn't until 2020. His tone on Twitter started changing. How so? He started name-calling. He started adopting Donald Trump's style of speak. And it's just not at all reflective of the person I had gotten to know. And it was concerning.

Do you remember specifically the names he called? Well, I certainly remember the childless cat lady comment. A bunch of childless cat ladies who are miserable at their own lives and the choices that they've made, and so they want to make the rest of the country miserable too. And the idea that people who don't have children don't have a meaningful stake in the country. When you go to the polls in this country as a parent, you should have more power. You shouldn't have the same voting rights as people with children. If you don't have as much of an investment in the future of this country,

maybe you shouldn't get nearly the same voice. And then he started making really cruel comments about abortion. Yeah, I mean, I certainly would like abortion to be illegal nationally. He came out opposing abortion in cases of rape and incest. And when we talked about abortion in law school, J.D. was deeply uncomfortable with the concept of abortion. So J.D. was deeply uncomfortable with the concept of abortion. What he relayed to me is what his grandmother had taught him, which is that you can never know what situation a woman is in when she's making that difficult decision,

and it's not the government's business, essentially. And I think he was really struggling with whether he agreed with his grandmother or not, but his extreme opinions started developing in 2020. And when he came out in support of a ban on gender affirming care in 2021 that was introduced in Arkansas, ban on gender-affirming care in 2021 that was introduced in Arkansas, I reached out to him directly. When someone is trying to strip you of your political and civil rights and you have their cell phone number, at least I felt like I needed to text him about it, and I did. And what did you say to him? I asked him if he supported these laws.

These are bans on gender-affirming care for children, specifically the Arkansas bill. Yes. And we went back and forth. And he acknowledged that it was awkward, but then explained to me that he thought it was experimentation and that I had been brainwashed by Jeff Bezos. And I mean, it was just the tenor of the conversation was completely anathema to the tenor of our previous conversations. Right. I've read this text exchange. And whereas almost all of your previous messages are two generous people working through tough stuff, right? This one feels like that dynamic is kind of unraveling. And you say to him at one point in this exchange, quote, the political voice you have become

seems so, so far from the man I got to know in law school. And J.D. Vance replies to you, I will always love you, but I really do think the left's cultural progressivism is making it harder for normal people to live their lives. And that back and forth feels like it marks a change in your relationship. It was incredibly different,

and it was incredibly painful and hurtful. It was incredibly different, and it was incredibly painful and hurtful. This division of Americans that he has embraced of normal people and everyone else. I am a normal person. Queer people are normal Americans. I don't divide the world between normal and abnormal people. I don't think that helps anyone. And in a lot of ways, I think I lead a much more average life than he does. I am not a millionaire. I lead a private existence. And specifically the term normal really scared me because he has set up a war between quote normal people and those who are trying to attack them. You know, I, I'd shared

some pretty personal stuff with him about my experience as a trans kid. Because I know what it's like to sit and cry as a kid and think, I have to fix myself. There's no way that I can be this person and be loved and have a job and be accepted and be okay. And that is a devastating experience. And I was so hopeful that it would be easier for future generations. And what I was seeing JD engage in is something that was even scarier than what I grew up with. And so I felt personally betrayed, but also very fearful. And the hope that I was talking about before that our correspondence gave me sunk. Hmm. Could you believe that you were having that conversation? I believe that the man that I used to know was gone.

So, of course, what happens next is that Vance is catapulted into his political career. He makes peace with Trump, apologizes to Trump, embraces Trump, runs for Senate in Ohio. Yeah, and I obviously followed what was happening in the Ohio race. And I chose not to say anything at that time. You know, my classmate Josh McLaurin leaked a message where J.D. had privately referred to Donald Trump as America's Hitler. And obviously I had similar things in my possession, but I didn't feel compelled to act at that time which maybe was a lack of moral courage on my part or lingering affection probably that too yeah I think they're you know it's still hard for me because I I have a lot of fond memories about him and his wife and I still care about him on some level. And I didn't want to betray him.

And I think maybe I still held on some hope. Okay, so once he's doing this to get elected, and maybe once he's in office, we'll see some moderation. But that obviously hasn't happened. If anything, he's gone farther to the right. And so tonight, Mr. Chairman, I stand here humbled, and I'm overwhelmed with gratitude to say I officially accept your nomination to be Vice President of the United States of America.

And every single day for the next four years, when I walk into that White House to help President Trump, I will be doing it for you, for your family, for your future, and for this great country. Thank you. God bless all of you. And God bless our great country. I want to talk about what it means for Vance to become Trump's running mate. Because in talking to you about the emails you guys exchanged in those years after law school, it's hard not to recognize the ways in which being Trump's running mate means that he's aligning himself with positions that are very much at odds with what he said to you in some of those emails, right? I mean, Trump is someone who tolerates zero questioning of the police. Trump is someone who says that the Confederate flag is a proud symbol of the U.S. That's so different from the way

J.D. Vance talked to you about the Confederate flag and Charleston's so different from what he said to you about hating the police and being skeptical of them. And it goes on and on, the divergences. And so it's once Vance becomes Trump's running mate that you do start to entertain the idea that these correspondence should become public. Right. People started reaching out to me saying that reporters were calling them. This was before he was announced and that they had shared my name with reporters as someone who might have

some information. And I kind of took the approach of, well, if a reporter calls me, I'll cross that bridge when I come to it. And eventually a reporter did call me. My colleague, Stephanie Saul. Correct. And I had a great deal of back and forth with Stephanie. I talked with my partner. I talked with my parents. And then I called a close friend from elementary school who's an independent voter, someone who I have an immense amount of respect for, a single mom living in rural America trying to do her best. And I wanted her opinion. And what'd she say? She said that she votes for people based on their character and that she thinks that this

was important information. But she also understood why I was really hesitant to share it. But ultimately, that she thought that was important information was really crucial in my decision. I think the importance of the correspondence and why I made them public is that, you know, J.D. has tried to explain why he changed his mind on Donald Trump. But I think what the American people deserve to know is that he has changed his position on every conceivable issue that affects everyday Americans. And the timing of those changes line up with his attempt to rise in the MAGA movement. So they're indicative of someone who's willing to turn their back on their core values in order to amass money and power.

And I think that reflects a lack of integrity that isn't something that people want in their leaders. It's one thing to evolve your opinion on certain issues when you get new information. It's a completely separate thing to transform your personality and change your position on every conceivable issue in order to advance your career. And so it's the integrity, it's the being a political chameleon that I think people deserve to know.

It's the being a political chameleon that I think people deserve to know. You have clearly concluded that J.D. Vance's transformation was not organic. You see it as a story of ambition overtaking conviction. But I want to talk about a different possibility, or I guess a different interpretation of what's happened here, and arguably a more generous way of seeing what has happened to Vance. And it's that people really do change, and his beliefs have genuinely evolved because of changes around him, because of forces that are present now that weren't. And when I try to make sense of how Vance himself describes his transformation, what I hear him saying, and I wonder if you hear him saying it too, is that,

you know, liberal policies, top-down liberal approaches to issues like how to handle race, how to handle diversity, how Americans should talk about sexuality and gender, that those have become dogmatic, and that he doesn't think they've given Americans a space to think for themselves. And that is how he is processing these changes. And I wonder if you've given him the benefit of the doubt and tried to think about whether that is the explanation. I don't live in J.D. Vance's head, so I can't definitively say what his motivations are.

I have certainly changed my mind about a number of things, and I hope we all evolve and change our minds it shows evolution maturity changing your mind with new information is a good thing but there's a difference between evolving and transforming on every conceivable issue. And again, the way you talk about people, I think the content of the emails is important, but also the nature of them, the kindness, the mutual respect is completely gone from the way he speaks publicly. And both of those things are important because the way we talk about people, especially the way our leaders talk about people, has real impact on communities.

It gives everyday Americans and emboldens them to treat their neighbors with cruelty. to treat their neighbors with cruelty, it diminishes our ability to have respectful conversations across difference. And so it is very hard for me to imagine that you could transform, and again, every conceivable political issue, and also the way you talk about people different from you. I have a final question for you.

What would you say to J.D. Vance if you felt you could talk to him right now? If you could get past everything that's just happened and you could just the two of you sit down for a coffee or a beer? It's a really hard question. I would ask him why he's so angry at everyday people who are different from him? What about how I live my life makes it hard for normal people?

What did I do? I truly don't know. Well, Sophia, thank you so much for your time. I really appreciate it. Thank you, Michael. Thank you. In response to Sophia's decision to publicly share their correspondence, a spokesman for J.D. Vance issued a statement. Quote, It's unfortunate that this individual chose to leak

decades-old private conversations between friends to The New York Times. Senator Vance, the statement said, values his friendships with individuals across the political spectrum. The statement added, despite their disagreements, Senator Vance cares for Sophia and wishes Sophia the very best. We'll be right back. Here's what else you need to know today.

On Sunday, Vice President Kamala Harris met with three potential running mates to test their personal chemistry, a sign that her search for a number two has entered its final phase. Harris met with Arizona Senator Mark Kelly, Minnesota Governor Tim Walz, and Pennsylvania Governor Josh Shapiro at her home in Washington, D.C. She's expected to announce her choice by tomorrow. And Israel is bracing for a major retaliatory attack after its assassination last week of high-level leaders from both Hamas and Hezbollah.

At least four major airlines have suspended flights into and out of Israel for fear of an aerial attack from Iran or Lebanon, the countries where the assassinations occurred. Today's episode was produced by Alex Stern, Ricky Nowitzki, and Lindsay Garrison, with help from Diana Nguyen and Rob Zipko. It was edited by Ben Calhoun, with help from Paige Cowan and Patricia Willans. Contains original music by Dan Powell, Alicia Baetube, and Ro Nymisto, and was engineered by Alyssa Moxley.

Our theme music is by Jim Brunberg and Ben Lansford of Wonderland. That's it for The Daily. I'm Michael Bilbao. See you tomorrow.