The Daily - The Campus Protesters Explain Themselves

Episode Date: May 17, 2024

This episode contains explicit language.Over recent months, protests over the war in Gaza have rocked college campuses across the United States.As students graduate and go home for the summer, three joined “The Daily” to discuss why they got involved, what they wanted to say and how they ended up facing off against each other.Guests: Mustafa Yowell, a student at the University of Texas at AustinElisha Baker, a student at Columbia UniversityJasmine Jolly, a student at Cal Poly HumboldtBackground reading: Pro-Palestinian student activists say their movement is anti-Zionist but not antisemitic. It is not a distinction that everyone accepts.The Faculty of Arts and Sciences at Columbia University passed a resolution of no confidence in the university’s president, Nemat Shafik.  For more information on today’s episode, visit nytimes.com/thedaily. Transcripts of each episode will be made available by the next workday.

From The New York Times, I'm Sabrina Tavernisi, and this is The Daily. I'm a student here. I'm an English major. Please, don't fail us. Don't fail us. Over the past month, protests over the war in Gaza have rocked college campuses across the country. Watch out! Watch out! have rocked college campuses across the country. Watch out! Watch out! We're having a long-distance vision for the future. You are enabling the genocide of the Palestinian people!

There they go. Now. I know that there's a lot going on in the world right now, and there are many places to express your views, including other places in the Coliseum. But today is a day when we're celebrating our graduates. As students graduate and go home for the summer, my daily colleagues and I talk to three of them about why they got involved,

what they wanted to say, and how they ended up facing off against each other. and how they ended up facing off against each other. It's Friday, May 17th. Hello? Hi, is this Mustafa? Yes. How are y'all doing? Good. This is Sabrina, and Lindsay is also on the line with us. Lindsay Garrison, my colleague.

Hi, nice to talk with you. Nice to meet you, Lindsay. Thank you for having me. My name is Mustafa Yao. I'm 20 years old, and I study at the University of Texas at Austin. I study civil engineering. I'm a third year. Mustafa, tell me where you grew up. Got you, yeah. I'm from Irving, Texas. My dad's from Sherman, Texas. And my mother's from Nablus, Palestine.

I went to school in the United States my entire life. I was born in the United States, but I've always traveled back and forth from here to Palestine. It's a second home to me, but my roots are in the United States. And what was it like growing up in Irving, Texas? It was fine. I mean, we grew up in a house. We were by no means poor, but only my dad worked. What was his job? Truck driver, a tanker. But we had air conditioning, the bills were paid.

You know, I had guitars. My dad bought me guitars, so I was comfortable. But I didn't really have a lot. I didn't know any Arabs. I knew very few other Arabs. My high school was mostly Hispanic and African-American. There weren't a lot of white kids and no Arabs or anything like that. And your mom, did she speak Arabic with you? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

I speak like a broken Arabic with an accent but yeah we we all speak Arabic was it part of your identity was it part of how you thought of yourself for sure always yeah definitely part of my culture and it's unique to be able to go spend the summer in a totally different country environment. You know, I always loved being Palestinian. I love my family over there. I always enjoyed, always more of a community. I felt a lot more tight-knit than the United States, where you just don't have that close-knit of a community as over there.

Do you have a memory of what that felt like? For sure, yeah. Just waking up in the morning, going to my grandma's house. And my grandmother, my grandfather had 13 kids. My mom was the ninth one. So there's people going in and out of her house and everyone's just around.

And it would always smell like, you know, rice and vegetables, whatever dish they were making. Lamb. Gusha. Got the TV going. Every crazy show they're watching. Dramatic soap opera. Because the city's small, it's meant for walking. So I'd just walk around and just going around, seeing the city with my cousins, just following them around, hanging out.

I would go outside the start of the day, and I wouldn't come back in until I go to bed. Was it beautiful? Yeah. I would sit at my grandma's apartment building and look down at the city from the top of the mountain and take it in. Nablus is just a valley, two big mountains, and then everything in between. It's like a cereal bowl. You want to think of it like that.

And then the stars are a lot clearer. The cool wind is blowing at night, it's beautiful. 60 some, 70 some degrees. I'll be in a sweater just looking down at the city, looking at the mountains, trying to notice details, trying to see where I walked that day, trying to map out the path and recognizing buildings, that sort of thing.

And then the beautiful sound of the Adan, it echoes through when you're up high. It's got that natural reverb, that natural delay, which is always cool. Breaking news now from the occupied West Bank. This has turned into one of the deadliest days in years. Palestinian leaders say Israeli forces have killed at least nine Palestinians during an arrest raid in a flashpoint area. They protested what they say is the rising wave of violent attacks

by extremist Jewish settlers. And Mustafa, Nablus is, of course, a city in the West Bank. Was there a sense of the problems between Palestinians and Israel? What was your sense of that as a kid? Yeah, it's kind of nature there. It goes without saying, there is this enemy. I mean, that's how my family got there. My grandparents were from Jaffa, which is a part of Israel now, and they were forced into Nablus. They're refugees in navas there would be conflicts or the the idf would come in and arrest somebody or something and it will be throwing rocks and it'd be chaos and i was too young to comprehend it and then uh i saw a raid an idf raid up close and you could go

after they left you go look at the door that they blew off with the grenade and like this big metal door mangled and twisted. And as obviously the idea of driving off people throwing rocks. But did your cousins ever talk about it? Do you remember as a kid, grownups at the dinner table talking about it? That's the thing is it was never like somebody like, hey, this is what's happening. It was just that's the thing is it was never like somebody was like, Hey, this is what's happening. It was just, that's just reality. It's like, you don't remember learning that the sky is blue. You don't remember learning that airplanes exist. So to answer your question, no, because like I said, every single day, that's reality for them.

No, because like I said, every single day, that's reality for them. Did you see Israelis? Was that part of your family's life there? Well, yeah. So actually, it's changed a lot. So before, you just see them through the bridge. So there's Israeli soldiers at the Israeli checkpoint. They got their big machine guns and their fancy hats.

But recently, when I was in high school, more and more illegal settlements in the West Bank and Israel just taking over all the highway systems and travel systems there. You do see traveling city to city. The car has a yellow license plate. Then it's Israeli settlers. Was it changing from summer to summer as you were growing up? Like every summer was different? Yeah, every summer more settlements. You know, billboards of like a young Jewish family, young man, young woman holding their young Jewish baby

and something in Hebrew kind of advertising like, this is a settlement, call this number, encouraging Israelis to move there all across the highway you see that more and more like i remember having a conversation my uncle was delivering maybe chlorine i forget what he was delivering but we drove to jericho we're seeing all the billboards and the the tanks driving by us and the yellow license plates and the settlements. I remember talking to him about what Israel's end goal is and like what in his mind and the Palestinians, what do we want? Like, what's the ideal situation from us? Practically, practically what what could happen?

He spoke of it as if I asked him what the weather was. He spoke of it as if I asked him what the weather was. He explained that the cities can't expand. So they want to again, move us out of Palestinian land into Jordan or into Egypt and to have us as refugees. But, uh, he talked about how most Palestinians want the, the West bank and Gaza, they want that two state solution and not be annexed by Israel like they are now. God that they want that two state solution and not be annexed by Israel like they are now.

And it's scary to think about because obviously, I mean, that's the other half of my family. You know, that's why I'm so invested in it here because it matters so much. So you go to Austin, Texas to go to University of Texas. How was your experience on campus? I mean, were you friends with Arab students, Arab American students? I'd meet them around campus here and there. I knew about the Palestinian Solidarity Community. I knew about Arab Student Association. But I wasn't active in it until last fall. After October 7th, there was some increased Palestinian demonization or I guess racism, if you want to call it. There were a couple of things on West Campus. if you want to call it. There were a couple of things on West Campus.

Somebody, like a Muslim guy, got stabbed by a, it wasn't a Jewish guy, just a white guy. And then there was a Palestinian Saudi committee meeting and there were two IDF soldiers that infiltrated the campus building and harassed the people outside into the room. I'm not going into the room. I'm not going into the room. Just going to stand here. You know Israel? What is Palestine?

What is Palestine? It's not even a case. You don't even know the history. What a government scooper. What a government scooper. Like Israeli army soldiers at University of Texas? I guess former IDF soldier, grown men, right? Grown, trained military men. They come in harassing people outside telling them,

we're going to do this, we're going to do that. I don't remember their words exactly. Were you there? I was not there, no. It was the fact that I wasn't there that made me really feel the need to be more present in the community. I had a kind of fire in my body that you should have been there. When you're in a tight-knit community, you feel bigger, you feel more fulfilled.

And for me to not be there made me feel small. So I participated in the protests through downtown Austin. I saw the stuff on social media. So I walk from campus to the Capitol. And then I come into the Capitol, whatever part of the Capitol it was, and just see this huge crowd. Wow. Just a giant mass of people taking up the entire road. And then holding signs, chanting people with their kids.

And then you look up at the parking garages and buildings, you got people waving Palestinian flags. I've never seen anything like that in America before. I've never seen anything like that in America before. Had you ever been to a protest before? No. And to see it, it's totally different than what you can imagine. It's like I show you a picture of the beach, and you're like, yeah, it's going to be nice.

And then you go there, and then you see the beach. You're not surprised it's pretty, but you know, it still means something when you actually go see it. That was before campus protests began, but within the Palestinian Solidarity Committee, we held more events, more teaching events, and then a march to the tower with more chanting, and that was a few hundred people, students, all students.

I remember talking to my Arab friends how we were surprised that it wasn't just Arabs and it wasn't just Muslims at the protests. It was like regular students we saw, you know, regular white guys that could have been in a frat or they got on their coats and their backpacks and they just, they don't look like they're part of any group that would have already been conscious of the situation. And it was very surprising to see that. To see that many people take the time out of their day for it to be that important to them. Like it is important to me is definitely meaningful.

And what did that mean to you? It meant so much because optimism, optimism that I never had before. Kind of one of the reasons that I wasn't as present in the Arab community is kind of like how I described back in Nablus. The Israeli occupation is just reality. But to have this reaction, it felt like this cause is not hopeless. It was like all of your life, it had just been this fact. Exactly right, yeah. It was hopeless before, like you're screaming at a brick wall,

but now, yeah, you feel big when everybody's yelling the same thing you are. And are they continuing to organize and plan protests? What's happening now? Right now, so every day this week, there's been sitting, teaching, lunch, studying going on on the South Tower lawn. What's the mood like? It's peaceful. It's nice. Sometimes you'll have the Zionists come in and the counter-protest or something like that. But generally, it's been fine. Not very much tension.

Mustafa, who are the Zionists? When you say Zionists, who are you talking about? You mean like the definition of a Zionist? A Zionist is someone who believes that the entire land should be the state of Israel and it's their God-given right. And that is how the illegal occupation, illegal settlements, that's how all that is justified. It's the idea of Zionism. It'll be people holding Israeli flags, and their intention there is to show their support for Israel and kind of be Israel's voice in this situation. You can go up there and talk to them and that sort of thing. I would show up to the other side's protests with my Israeli flag because it was very important to me, even in the face of hate,

to not be bullied or scared off campus. And it was important to me as someone who felt confident and comfortable enough to do that, that I kind of acted as, you know, a voice for my peers around me who kind of were anxious and didn't want to be seen. We'll be right back. I consider myself as proud a Zionist as can be. And what that means very simply is that I believe in the Jewish people's right

to a state in their historic homeland. And that's something that people misunderstand about Jews, is that we're not just a religion. We are a people, and we've always considered ourselves to be a people. The first covenant is, with Abraham, I'll make you a great nation. My colleague, Daily Producer Jessica Chung, talked to Alicia Baker, a sophomore at Columbia University. I'm studying Middle East history and Arabic language. I also studied Hebrew my whole life, and I feel like as somebody who's studying the Middle East and wants to, for my life, participate in Middle East diplomacy and conversations about the future of the Middle East, it was necessary for me to both learn the history from new perspectives and learn Arabic language. And where did you grow up? I grew up in Brookline, Massachusetts, right outside Boston.

Yeah, when I went to Jewish day school my entire life. Growing up in Brookline was probably the best thing that could have happened to me. I grew up in an observant, modern, Orthodox Jewish community, but I went to pluralistic Jewish day school, which meant that at school, I was around Jews with all sorts of different backgrounds and different ways of practicing their religion. So bar mitzvah season was very fun for me because, you know, one week I was in an Orthodox synagogue and the next week I was in a Reform synagogue where they were playing guitar and drums. And that was very good for my, you know, my Jewish religious literacy. Can you tell me like a story from childhood about something that maybe happened to you that first got you to understand what it is to be a Jewish person? but in middle school. So every year we have a fast day. And it's distinct from Yom Kippur, because Yom Kippur is about repentance. And it's also a fast day. But Kishabah is really a fast day of mourning. And it's a sad day. It's like the saddest day of the year. And so one of the

things you're not allowed to do is watch a comedy or do things like for pleasure. Can't watch The Office on Kisha Abbaaz as much as I love The Office. So when I was younger, what that meant was watching movies about the Holocaust. And I remember in like sixth grade, probably, I watched for the first time The Boy in the Striped Pajamas. I'm Bruno. Shmo. Sorry? I'm Shmo. Shmo. Schmo. Sorry? I'm Schmo.

Schmo. No one's called Schmo. What happens is there's a Jewish boy in the striped pajamas who's in one of the death camps. And a German general, a Nazi, who lives near the death camps. And his son is the same age as the Jewish boy, and they kind of develop this, like, thing, like this secret friendship or whatever. Are you not allowed out?

Why? What have you done? I'm a Jew. And in the end, the Jewish boy sneaks the German boy into the camp, and they end up in line for quote unquote the shower. No, it's just the shower. And the German boy, they go into the gas chamber and the German general tries to get there in time to stop it and doesn't get there in time. And I was just bawling at the end when you see his face through the window,

the tiny little window of the gas chamber. And the German kid, who, by the way, tragically dies as well because he follows his Jewish friend, because he didn't understand the difference because he just saw him as a human being. And my God, did that stick with me and still has stuck with me in terms of just understanding how brutal and inhumane the Holocaust was. and inhumane the Holocaust was. Well, certainly you grew up in an observant family, but did you grow up in a political family at all?

Like, did your parents ever talk to you about the state of Israel or Palestine? And like, did that ever come up? Definitely. I mean, I went in 10th grade and 11th grade. I was like, all right, I need to know about this conflict more than I already do. And I was like, you know, I know my narrative and I know my people's history and I would love to know their narrative.

So I read Edward Said's The Question of Palestine and Orientalism. I read Rashid Khalidi's A Hundred Years War in Palestine. I read Rashid Khalidi's A Hundred Years War in Palestine. I read Rashid Khalidi's Palestinian Identity. I also read Dershowitz's book called The Case for Israel and Yossi Klein-Halevi's Letters to My Palestinian Neighbor and Daniel Gordes' Israel. Kind of foundational texts on both sides of this. And I would come to the dinner table and be like, all right, like, well, what the heck happened in 1948? You know, whose fault was it that many Palestinians had to leave? And at the end of the day, like, it is definitely clear that it's complicated.

So I came to Columbia in search of an academically serious environment with peers from different backgrounds who, because of our different backgrounds, we might learn so much from each other. But what I'm feeling right now is some of these people don't believe that I have a right to be at that table. I want to get to the protests and what's been happening on campus, but just to reel it back a little bit. What happened in the days after October 7th? Mourning. Mourning. It was a time for morning and for being with our community. And then on October 12th, we found out that students for... By the way, Students for Justice in Palestine and Jewish Voice for Peace, the token Jews who support anti-Semitic and violent rhetoric, they were planning an all-out for Palestine rally on October 12th.

Wait a second. What the hell are you talking about? You're planning Palestine rally on October 12th. Wait a second, what the hell are you talking about you're planning a rally on October 12th? Like we were literally still bagging bodies in the South, Israelis, who were massacred. To me, that was like the most inhumane, like the most inhumane, unsensitive, really just morally reprehensible thing that I had ever seen in my entire life. And it really, really pissed me off. From the river to the sea! Palestine will be free! And as a Jewish community, we, you know, there was a conversation. What do we do about this? Everyone, we're going to ask everyone to gather in a circle

so that we can sing together in a sign of Jewish unity and so that we can stand strong in front of the people who want to tear us down. They'll never tear us down. Come on. And we did 22 minutes of silence, which at that time was one second for each of the around 1,300 victims. And then got into a big circle and just sang songs of peace and unity and perseverance. perseverance. It was really a moment for community and it was also so disheartening to see our peers celebrating October 7th. That was really, you know, that was a wake-up call to the fact that we have

some real problems. But also I would try and talk to people and then,, and then sometimes the leaders would be like, you're not allowed to talk to these guys with the Israeli flag. Once in a while, I'd be able to talk to somebody, and I was lucky enough that there was one person who was actually Palestinian and friendly enough to speak with me, and then we got to talking and ended up getting coffee. We spoke a lot about narrative and the importance of narrative to history. And I would stress the importance of the Jewish story and be open to hearing, obviously, the Palestinian side. When the protests on Columbia's campus started, we were already hearing,

globalize the Intifada from New York to Gaza. And this movement on campus continues to scream, Intifada revolution, and there is only one solution, right? Intifada revolution. Now, as somebody who knows the Jewish story and the Israeli story, I know what Intifada is. It means violence against Jews. The second Intifada happened between 2000 and 2005. Over a thousand Jews were killed. Thousands were injured. And it was basically a series of bus bombings, suicide bombings, stabbing shootings perpetrated,

perpetuated by Palestinian terrorists. So that's what I hear when I hear Intifada. It is a call for violence against Jews everywhere, very, very simply. So, I raised that concern, and I said, please shut it down, because this is a threat against Jews, and it's going to normalize violence against Jews. root of intifada is nafada, which means shaking things up. And I said, well, you can't use etymological roots to reverse what the meaning has become. And I was told, well, we're not calling for violence. And I would say, well, what are you calling for? And there was never a concrete answer. We've had this conversation probably 10 times over lunch, in passing. We're not going to agree. It is a call for violence against Jews. There is no way that any other minority could get his claims of discrimination denied by the use of an etymological root. everyone who has to go through DEI training is taught that a microaggression is something that you say, but you didn't mean to be racist, but maybe might come off as offensive. And we're taught that the impact of your words matters more than your intent when you say it. Now, I'm saying, well, here's the impact of your words on me. Here's how I experienced them as a Jew,

as a minority. And I'm being told, no, no, no, the intent of the speaker matters more than the impact on you. What kind of double standard is that? You mentioned earlier this phrase, token Jew. Who are the token Jews? To me, I think it's really sad. There are some Jewish people who identify, I guess, as Jewish, but reject the existence of the State of Israel. And what's happening is that they're saying, oh, you know, I'm Jewish and I'm anti-Zionist, so therefore anti-Zionism is not anti-Semitism, or therefore this movement can't be anti-Semitic because I'm a part of it. That is textbook tokenization. And who are they? I don't know who they are. I don't know who they are. But I do know that they do not know the Jewish story.

They just don't know it. They are signing statements and leading protests that are celebrating the murder of Israelis and of Jews. How in good conscience as a Jew could you possibly do that. Have you ever been called that, token Jew? Oh my God, I have been called a self-hating Jew. I've been told I want the extermination of Jewish people. I have not been directly called a token Jew, but I have definitely seen things online that insinuate that myself and other Jewish people in this movement are. And it hurts, but I,

well, I know it's not true I know that it is not an accurate portrayal of me or my feelings but that it is an accurate portrayal of other people's fear and desire for safety I also want my people to be safe but my desire for safety is not built on the idea that it has to come at someone else's expense. My name is Jasmine Jolly. I'm 25. I'm a student at Cal Poly Humboldt.

I'm a student of the Child Development Department. And I am at home in Arcata, California. I grew up in Sonoma County. I'm of Ashken Development Department. And I am at home in Arcata, California. I grew up in Sonoma County. I'm of Ashkenazi descent on my mom's side. My dad's a high school teacher. And my mom ran a daycare for years. And my parents were both activists. They took us to anti-war protests. Like when Bush attacked Iraq, they had us at protests and my mom made us all shirts. Like I think mine said war is bad for toddlers. My sister said war is bad for babies. Hers said war is bad for moms. My dad said war is bad for dads. And what about your faith? Did they practice Judaism? Were your parents more culturally Jewish? openly Jewish and I talk about it a lot. I talk about the values through like my understanding of Jewish tradition and just like historically for me holding on to that title of Jewish and being

able to pass it on to my children one day is really, really important. So yeah, like I'm raising Jewish babies one day for sure. But I have been, I've been in a lot of spaces where I didn't feel Jewish enough. And I've also been told a lot throughout my life that I don't look Jewish. I look like the Irish English Scottish side of my family. So yeah, like I don't in a lot of ways fit Jewish stereotypes. And I've never been targeted because of it. And that at least is like, I'm sure partially because of how I look. And then two, three years ago, I had been giving a lot of consideration to the idea of birthright. Birthright trip is a free trip that anyone who can prove Jewish ancestry is given to Israel. It's seen as a birthright of Jewish people.

And then in my mid-late teenage years, I had read about people walking off of their birthright trip in protest. And that sort of sparked like a bit of a deeper dive beyond the honestly very little that I knew about the country previously. And I started reading about that. And I started reading about settler violence in the West Bank. And I looked at historical maps and historical treaties, and I was like, there's things here that I wasn't told, that people didn't tell me. Like what? Like about settler violence and this pretty continuous push

from Israeli people onto Palestinian land and then expulsion of Palestinians from their land. But that was a really big turning point for me. So you never went on the birthright trip? No, and I won't. And then mid-October, right around that time, there were campus dialogues on race. And for a class, we were assigned to go to two of these and to write about our experience there. So one I went to was given by a Palestinian student on, I think they called it like, resistance embroidery. And at that point, I was watching Israel's retaliation. Now, more than 12,700 Palestinians have been killed. I watched the numbers of the dead go up. And I watched family lines being wiped out, people being pushed out of their homes.

Families are burying their dead in mass with little time. I've seen hundreds and hundreds of images of dead children and dead families and bodies and mass graves. Gaza becoming a graveyard for children, the UN chief says. And all I could see in that was this parallel to how my family was treated in Eastern Europe. And that was when the severity sunk in. I come from a people who are historically expelled. And I felt like I was watching Israel do what was done to my family. And that was the end of any way I could support that country for me. I felt like I was watching them enact vengeance out of fear. And I know exactly where that fear of exile and extermination comes from in Jewish people,

because I feel it for my family when they had to leave Eastern Europe, or for the few who went to Western Europe instead of the U.S. when they had to leave France, and when they died. when they had to leave France and when they died. And the lesson I learned, I feel like, from my history is that I have a voice that is powerful. I feel like my Jewish family especially teaches me to ask questions, and that is what I am trying to do. So I thought that if there was any way that my voice could influence an end to violence,

I would try to make it loud. So we had a couple of vigils for people who have died in Gaza, where we read testimonies of their stories or some of their words. That was when I got more involved with Humble for Palestine up here. And eventually we shifted to being at the Eureka courthouse on Fridays, and we have been there every Friday ever since. And what was your sign that you made? Mine said, in honor of my Jewish ancestors, I stand with Palestine. Jasmine, during these protests, I wanted to ask you if you ever felt hostility toward you because of your Jewishness.

No, nothing that has ever made me feel excluded. I'm sure you've seen some of these comparisons of Nazis and IDF or people compare Netanyahu to Hitler. And once we had a person show up to one of our regular protests with an Israeli flag, but instead of the Star of David, it had a swastika on it. And that I was immediately uncomfortable with. I will not stand with a swastika. I will not stand next to a swastika. I will not stand in the same group as a swastika. I will not stand next to a swastika. I will not stand in the same group as a swastika. I like adamantly refuse. I cannot do that. I will not stand here with any Nazi symbolism. Like this is going to bring more violence and vitriol aimed in our direction. We already get coffee cups thrown at us. We already get spit at and yelled at. And in order to keep

the people that we are inviting to these protests safe, we knew that that was not the time and place for it. So there's this chant, Intifada revolution is the only solution. What does that mean to you? So Intifada has come to represent uprising, but it means literally to shake off. And it is the word that has been used to label a number of violent uprisings of different Palestinian groups against Israeli occupation. Does that seem like a fair, like actual, like official definition of it to you? Yeah, I wanted to ask you if you yourself had chanted intifada revolution in the course of the protests yeah i have and what did that feel like um it definitely the first time i heard it i was uncomfortable why uh whoa this is a call for violence i don't like that but then i thought Why? I realized the similarity in that call of there is only one solution, intifada revolution.

I realized the similarity to if we don't get no justice, they don't get no peace, no justice, no peace. When people are occupied, resistance is justified. And yes, it is still a word that means these specific actions that were taken against Israel. And a lot of them harmed civilians. And that is sad. But it is also a word that inspires people. It is also a word that makes people feel like they might be capable of change. that makes people feel like they might be capable of change. And yeah, I will use it thoughtfully.

What do you mean by thoughtfully? In like where I time it with other chance. Oh, what do you mean? I have like a list and they are all classified by like genre. So we have the financial ones and we have the Arabic chants and we have the chants talking about people who have died and how we are all interconnected. And we have the chants about occupation being a crime. And I try to put it with the no justice, no peace ones. Were there any other times where you felt tested by protesters? You felt perhaps different from them, again, because of your Jewishness? No. I feel like, I feel like there's people who feel like Zionism is Judaism, you know, or that to be Jewish, you must be Zionist. if you are able to pause and remember that Israel is not Jewish people and Zionism is not Jewish people. And what about from Jewish friends? Do they question what you're doing?

Do you ever feel some kind of people looking slightly askance at you? Yeah, I think, you know, my auntie made a comment once, like, if you're Jewish right now, you have to support Israel. And I have definitely felt nervous about expressing some of my views in front of family. My grandfather and I, this was a couple months ago now, we were exchanging like 1,500, 2,000 word emails, asking each other questions about our opinions. He's a history professor. This is my Jewish grandfather. He was raised labor Zionist. So I was asking about how he was raised and the ideologies that he was raised with.

But he made a really good point. And if you have the time, I would like to try to find this line that he said and read it to you. Oh, please. Here it is. So he said, you have grown up in an era in which the deeper Israeli history is not part of your DNA. Jews have plenty of place in the world. Israel is an increasingly apartheid state.

Most importantly, the existence of Israel is an increasingly apartheid state. Most importantly, the existence of Israel has never really been under threat, nor have the most fundamental conditions of existence been an issue for Jews. Those things are not a part of your worldview, as they are mine and my generation, and to a lesser extent, your parents. I do not imagine you can fathom the importance of Israel in the hearts of people of my generation, nor should you. I would not ask it. That would be an unfair burden. That said, here are the things which I What did you think, really, of that point that your grandfather made? Like, how did it strike you? Did you feel like he was right, that you didn't understand

why Israel would be a safe haven for people of his generation? I think his point is that I can theoretically understand, but I cannot emotionally. I theoretically understand why Israel was created, why this idea of a Jewish state was considered a good idea for the safety of Jewish people right after a genocide. But emotionally, like he said, I have been safe. I have not been afraid for Jewish people's safety the way that I think people in other

generations may have. So that comment, I do not imagine you could fathom the importance of Israel in the hearts of people of my generation, nor should you. I would not ask it. It would be an unfair burden. Really just hit my heart in a nice way in this, like, his understanding that I will have my own perspective and he will have his own that lead us both towards a place of, like, understanding each other better. Thank you. We'll be right back. Here's what else you should know today. On Thursday, the Supreme Court rejected a challenge to the way that the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau is funded, a decision that protects the agency from conservatives seeking to undermine it. In a 7-2 ruling, the justices found that the way that Congress chose to finance the bureau, is constitutional. Had the court ruled otherwise, it may have cast

doubt on every regulation and action taken by the Watchdog Agency since it was created 13 years ago under former President Barack Obama. And during a second day of cross-examination, lawyers for Donald Trump sought to portray his former fixer, Michael Cohen, as a serial liar who constantly changes his story. Their goal was to undermine the credibility of Cohen's testimony so far, which is central to the prosecution's case in the Hush Money trial. In particular, defense lawyers seized on Cohen's claim, in a different court case, that he had lied under oath. Their suggestion is that Cohen might be willing to lie under oath again during this trial. Also, a reminder to catch the interview tomorrow, right here where you get the daily. This week on the show, David Marchese talks with scientist Ayanna Elizabeth Johnson

about why she thinks we can't give in to climate doom, even if we feel it. We went from like, OK, climate change, is this really happening? To like, how serious is this? To, oh God, it's so bad, let's just give up. And sort of skipped this middle step of all hands on deck. Today's episode was reported and produced by Lindsay Garrison and Jessica Chung with help from Diana Nguyen,

Aastha Chaturvedi, and Claire Tennis-Sketter. It was edited by Michael Benoit with help from Ben Nguyen, Aastha Chaturvedi, and Claire Tennis-Sketter. It was edited by Michael Benoit, with help from Ben Calhoun. Researched by Susan Lee. Contains original music by Chelsea Daniel, Dan Powell, Marian Lozano, Alicia Baitu, Rowan Nemistow, and was engineered by Alyssa Moxley. Our theme music is by Jim Brunberg and Ben Landsberg of Wonderly. Rowan Nemistow, and was engineered by Alyssa Moxley. Our theme music is by Jim Brunberg and Ben Landsberg of Wonderly.

Special thanks to Rochelle Banja and Jodi Kantor. That's it for The Daily. I'm Sabrina Tavernisi. See you on Monday.