The Daily - The Death of the Competitive Congressional District

Episode Date: March 4, 2022

This episode contains strong language.After winning his House seat in the 2018 midterm elections, Representative Dan Crenshaw, a Republican of Texas, seemed to have found a sweet spot between full-blown Trumpism and the anti-Trump wing of the party.But after Jan. 6, and ahead of this year’s midterms, more extreme factions of the Republican Party have cast him less as a vision for the future and more as a symbol of what needs snuffing out.The once-in-a-decade redistricting process gives those factions a structural advantage. On the ground in Texas, we explore the impact of redistricting and speak to Mr. Crenshaw about the state of his party.Guest: Shane Goldmacher, a national political reporter for The New York Times.Have you lost a loved one during the pandemic? The Daily is working on a special episode memorializing those we have lost to the coronavirus. If you would like to share their name on the episode, please RECORD A VOICE MEMO and send it to us at [e-mail]. You can find more information and specific instructions here.Background reading: Competitive districts are disappearing in Texas and beyond. Consider the case of a once-rising Republican star, Dan Crenshaw, in the Houston suburbs.Want more from The Daily? For one big idea on the news each week from our team, subscribe to our newsletter. For more information on today’s episode, visit nytimes.com/thedaily. Transcripts of each episode will be made available by the next workday. 

Today on The Daily, Times political correspondent Shane Goldmacher takes us inside the first primaries of the 2022 midterms. It's Friday, March 4th. It's Weekend Update with Colin Jost and Michael Chang. If you were paying attention to the 2018 midterms, and maybe even if you weren't, you might remember this one particular moment on Saturday Night Live. As we said, the midterm elections are next week. Here with his first impressions of some of the candidates is Pete Davidson. are next week. Here with his first impressions of some of the candidates

is Pete Davidson. Where images of various candidates flashed on the screen and comedian Pete Davidson poked fun at the way they looked. This guy's kind of cool, Dan Crenshaw. Oh, come on, man. Hold on. You may be surprised to hear he's a congressional candidate from Texas and not a hitman in a porno movie.

I'm sorry, I know he lost his eye in war or whatever. Whatever. Davidson was ridiculing a conservative candidate from Texas named Dan Crenshaw, a former Navy SEAL who wears an eyepatch. Welcome back. Outrage this morning after Saturday Night Live mocks an American war hero. Left, right, independent, everybody is angry about this. It's so rude.

I'm not that easily offended, but I was like, oh. By the way, all of you on Saturday Night Live can go straight to hell over this. You owe this man a profuse apology. What jackasses, honestly. There was so much outrage that on the next week's episode... I mean this from the bottom of my heart. It was a poor choice of words.

The man is a war hero, and he deserves all the respect in the world. And if any good came of this, maybe it was that for one day, the left and the right finally came together to agree on something, that I'm a dick. You think? Crenshaw was invited on set to accept an apology from Davidson. Lieutenant Commander David Crenshaw, everyone.

Thank you so much for coming. Thanks for making a Republican look good. All right. Look, I just wanted to say, for people that don't know, the reason you're wearing an eye patch right now Everyone, thank you so much for coming. Thanks for making a Republican look good. I just wanted to say, for people that don't know, the reason you're wearing an eye patch right now is that you lost your eye to an IED in Afghanistan during your third combat tour. And I'm sorry.

Thank you, Pete. I appreciate you saying that. So are we good? We're good. Apology accepted. After some joking back and forth between the two, Crenshaw closed things out by looking directly into the camera and delivering a message. There's a lot of lessons to learn here. Not just that the left and right can still agree on some things, but also this, Americans can forgive one another. We can remember what brings us together as a country and still see the good in each other. This is Veterans Day weekend.

It was a plea for civility in politics in an era that's been anything but civil. And it almost instantly turned Crenshaw into a national household name. It was a meteoric rise for a 34-year-old who had had virtually no national name recognition just a few days earlier. Crenshaw ended up winning his race, prevailing as a conservative in a purple district in and around the Houston suburbs. He beat out his Democratic opponent in a year that so many other Republican candidates lost. It was a particularly notable victory in a midterm that was defined by a suburban revolt against Donald Trump and his brand of republicanism. Crenshaw seemed to have found a sweet spot between full-blown

Trumpism and the anti-Trump wing of the Republican Party. Crenshaw claims to have a great relationship with Trump, and he was even given a keynote speech at the 2020 Republican National Convention. And he was even given a keynote speech at the 2020 Republican National Convention. But in that speech, he famously never mentioned Trump's name, which is essentially unheard of. But now... He absolutely, positively, beyond a shadow of a doubt, is the most arrogant politician I've ever seen. In a post-January 6th world, as more extreme factions of the Republican Party have started to take hold, and as the 2022 midterms are officially underway, Crenshaw has gotten on the wrong side of some of the loudest voices on the right. Crenshaw's not dumb. Crenshaw thinks you're dumb.

And he's being cast less as a vision for the future and more as a symbol for what needs snuffing out. Someone should primary that guy. Stat. And in their fight to do that, the far right has found a surprising new structural advantage. The once-a-decade redistricting process that has just remade districts nationwide. And nowhere have congressional seats been more transformed

than in Texas, Dan Crenshaw's home state. So that's where I set off to. We are recording, by the way. Excellent. We are driving. Just hit a little pothole on the freeway. Shane, where are we? We are north of Houston on a toll road that I'm not sure my rental car is going to pay the toll properly. So I make my way to Houston, where I meet up with Daily producer Diana Nguyen, who actually lives here.

And Shane, why are you in Houston? Well, I've come to Texas because Texas is the first state in the country in 2022 that's going to be holding its primaries. And it's the first state in the country in which candidates for the Congress are running in their new districts. Houston and its suburbs are fascinating because like so many suburban areas, there's been tremendous growth in the last decade.

And those demographic changes have chiefly benefited the Democrats. Seats that had never been winnable before for the party suddenly were competitive. Heading into the 2020 election, the Houston maps look something like this. There were three solidly Republican seats, three solidly Democratic seats, and four seats that were more up for grabs. So in theory, the Democrats in the Houston area could have won more seats than the Republicans. But in redrawing the maps,

the Republican-controlled state legislature did what's known as packing. They redrew the lines and stuffed as many Democratic voters into the Democratic districts as possible. And the result is the Democrats now actually have four safe Democratic seats, more than the three they had before. But the Republicans have seven safe seats, and there are absolutely zero swing districts left. And the impact of that,

it's not about whether a Republican or a Democrat will win a particular seat, but what type of Republican or Democrat will win. Because now, the real battles will be fought in primary elections. And when these battles are only fought in primary elections, against other candidates from the same party, the effect is often to move the whole conversation to the left or to the right. Because that's where the voters in primary elections tend to be. There's virtually no incentive for candidates to compromise when they have almost no chance of losing to the other party. And what that means for a candidate like Dan Crenshaw, who by most traditional metrics is a strong conservative, it means the only real threat he faces is from the far right. Now, that didn't materialize this year,

maybe because of his national status and star power. No one was able to make a meaningful challenge against him. He outraged the closest person, 100 to 1. But while he wasn't directly being threatened, the right is agitating against him. Just next door, in a neighboring district, in a fight that kind of became a proxy war over Crenshaw. a neighboring district in a fight that kind of became a proxy war over Crenshaw. And just how far from the new party line a candidate can stray in the post-January 6th era. And that is really what Diana and I are in Houston to see.

Okay, let's go do it. All right. So I live in Houston, and this rally is at a church that's about a 30-minute drive from my apartment. But it's also sort of a world away from the center of the city. This district that Shane and I are currently in is considered to be a real Republican stronghold. Hi, how are you guys? My name's Shane. I'm a reporter with the New York Times. I don't like your paper. Sorry, bud.

You know, do you guys want to chat? No, I don't like your paper. You don't like my paper, sorry, bud. No? Do you guys want to chat? No. I don't like your paper. You don't like my paper? All right, thank you. On our way in, Shane and I try to catch some of the Valley Goers in front of the church. I can't hear you. You should learn the truth, not the propaganda. What did he say? You should learn the truth, not the propaganda.

But they're not all that interested in talking with us. So we head inside as the program kicks off, and there are at least a couple hundred people there. And after a pledge to the Texas flag, I pledge allegiance to the Texas, one state, under God, one and indivisible. Some worship and opening remarks. God bless Texas, amen? Christian Collins himself is the first to take the stage. I will proudly stand with you to stand with President Trump, and I'm looking forward to seeing him back in the White House in 2024, am I right? He's a far-right candidate, and it's very clear that this is a far-right rally. He sets up the race as bigger than him, as ultimately about Donald Trump and getting him back into office. But first, it starts with taking back Congress.

And then he acknowledges the role that redistricting might play in that. And the question for this district, Congressional District 8, is not whether we will elect a Republican, because we will. It's what type of Republican. This race isn't about me versus the other guy or whatever. This race is about the people versus the Washington establishment. versus the Washington establishment. It may not be totally clear, but this is actually, at least indirectly,

the first reference of many to come to Dan Crenshaw, who just three years in is now himself being branded the establishment. Along with other mainstream Republicans, like the Republican House leader Kevin McCarthy, Crenshaw has endorsed Collins' opponent, Morgan Luttrell, who sort of looks like the kind of candidate you would create in a conservative fantasy lab. He's another former Navy SEAL, and his twin brother was the basis for the movie Lone Survivor. And like Collins, Luttrell is a very conservative candidate. But Collins is using Crenshaw's endorsement

as an attack line on Luttrell. We do not need leaders that are going to go along to get along with the Washington establishment that say conservative things when they're running and then go and do just the opposite when they get elected. And it's not a coincidence that this rally isn't even being held in the district that Collins is running in. It's actually in the district that the district that Collins is running in. It's actually in the district that Dan Crenshaw is running in.

Basically, this whole rally has been staged to ask voters, do you want another Crenshaw in office? I want to thank you. God bless you. God bless Texas. God bless America. Thank you, guys. Hi, my name's Shane.

Do you have a moment to chat? Sure. I'm a reporter with the New York Times out here in Texas. Tell me your name and... Sherry Lindsay. Sherry Lindsay. How do you spell it? S-H-A-R-I. We spoke to Sherry Lindsay and her husband, Jim. They're in their 70s, and they own a couple of businesses in the Houston area.

And they're quite familiar with the candidates in this race. Morgan Luttrell. We know him. He's a friend of our family's. Who is? Luttrell. Yeah, and so? Good person, but he's in the establishment. We want them out. Sherry's concern comes not so much from Luttrell himself, but from the people who are supporting him. Who are you thinking of? Crenshaw for one. He's teamed up with Luttrell and several others, so we feel like they're more the rhino establishment that's been in there, and that's the change that we want. We're tired of the same people

getting in, saying they're going to do this. And don't do it. I mean, he's been around a while, but Crenshaw, so. When we asked the Lindsays what specific votes Crenshaw had taken that were so worrisome, they dug around for a little bit. Well, gun control, for one. And mentioned gun control. And this came up in a couple of conversations.

Crenshaw, he is an okay dude. Not my politics. Yeah, what's not your politics about him? A lot of people call him a rhino. I would have to agree. Reese Johnson is an 18-year-old college freshman. He's just not voting in the way that we as, you know, constituents would want him to vote. What are some of the things that you feel like he has done or said in terms of his votes that you disagree with?

Specifics, ooh. I was more well-versed on this when it happened, but, you know. I have to say it was, was it the gun control? It was something about constitutional carry that he wasn't coming out as strongly as he could about that. But you know. What Reese and the Lindsays are both referring to is the fact that after two back-to-back mass shootings in 2019, including one at a Walmart in El Paso that left dozens dead, Crenshaw had signaled at least some openness to red flag laws,

laws that would take guns away from people who are determined by a judge to be a threat to themselves or others. This is something that other Republicans also said that they might be open to at the time, including President Trump. In fact, it was his lead, Crenshaw said he was following. The legislation never ended up going anywhere, and Crenshaw maintains an A rating from the NRA. But it was something that voters were using to point at something deeper, a kind of gnawing suspicion that Crenshaw has turned out to be a rhino, Republican in name only. And at the rally, the source of that idea was pretty easy to trace. What we cannot have is weak-spined Republicans or rhinos in office.

is weak-spined Republicans or rhinos in office. We also need to defeat communist rhinos like Crenshaw, Kinzinger, and the people they support. If you didn't stand for the tens of millions of Americans that stand for liberty, we will expose you for being a Republican in name only, a rhino, and possibly even recruit someone to run against you. We are seeing that promise through, believe me.

We're exposing Dan Crenshaw and the other fraud Republicans, wrapping themselves in President Trump's America First message to sneak into office. But the voters won't be fooled. We know how to spot a rhino from a mile away. You know the old saying, if it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, then it's probably a duck. Well, in today's Republican politics, if it talks like a rhino, is friends with rhinos, and takes money from rhinos, well, my friends, what are they? Rhinos! Correct.

Correct. I've learned a lot about our local guys, our new district, Dan Crenshaw, that I didn't know about Dan. And I come in here and hear these guys talking about him, and I'm like, wow, that's really true, man. I just, he's not, you know, he's tricked us. He's played the usual game of trickery with us, and he's not what he purports himself to be. And now he actually represents us in this district. It's shocking. I mean actually

it's quite shocking. What's shocking about it? With Dan you mean? With Dan Crenshaw specifically? That he's not what he purports to be. I don't think that he is. In what way? Specifically. I don't think that he is. Specifically? I had a pretty good opinion of him in the beginning,

but the more I see, the more I hear, and I'm changing that opinion. Really? Yes. It was something that was resounded by all the speakers up there. You know, he's a rhino. That's what I'm hearing. Now, I can't say that for certain, but it's certainly, you know, it's kind of like if it smells like a duck, walks like a duck, talks like a duck, quacks, it's a duck.

So I'm beginning to think it's a duck. Yes. But again, no one was really providing specifics about what it was that made Crenshaw so problematic. As Shane said, it was just kind of like establishment vibes. It was clearly not primarily an issue with his politics or his policy views, which, again, are quite conservative. What can I do for you? My name's Shane. How are you? Yeah, I just wanted to talk to you about what, do you mind if we record stuff here? Then we spoke with Dee Scott, a 70-year-old realtor who lives in the area. What do you think of Crenshaw's Republican?

Is he the kind of person you're looking for somebody to emulate or not? I think Dan Crenshaw might possibly be a rhino. Might possibly be a rhino. Might possibly be a rhino. What about? So this will pretty much tell you where I stand, I guess. Yeah, that's what I want to know. The first time that I heard him say, as far as the, here we go, the election being stolen, that has nothing to do with anything,

that was not the case, just forget about it, that never took place, blah, blah, blah, blah. And there's so much evidence coming out that was not the case. Just forget about it. It never took place. Blah, blah, blah, blah. And there's so much evidence coming out that it did take place. It's the first time in my life that I've not trusted our government, that I've not trusted elections, and I am just searching to find some way to determine who's the best to put in office to keep this country going forward and still be a great country.

What Dee's talking about is Dan Crenshaw's stance on the 2020 election. So he did initially cast doubt on the election, getting involved in a Texas lawsuit that had asked the Supreme Court to toss out the results in a few key swing states that Joe Biden had won. But when the Electoral College did certify the results, Crenshaw backed down, and he said his party needed to accept them and move on,

making him one of the few Republicans willing to do so. And he set himself even further apart in the aftermath of January 6th by saying that members of his own party were responsible for, quote, hyping up that day. Many members of Congress did do that. Many commentators did do that.

Many in the media have been doing that for the last few weeks, constantly saying, this is our time to fight. And let me tell you something very clearly. They've been lying to people. They've been lying to millions. They've been lying that January 6th was going to be this big solution for election integrity. It never was going to be.

He said there was absolutely no way, under the Constitution, that Congress could possibly overturn the election results. And they lied to people and they said, "'Go fight. Go fight because everything's on the line.'" That's what they said. And when people fought, they came to fight, and then they fought Capitol Police,

and now people are dead. And those same members of Congress who called people to fight, well, they were nowhere to be found because it was all fun and games to them. And most recently, Crenshaw's gone into a number of public disagreements with the right wing of his party that is most vocal about election fraud. An attack that was seen as being directed at the House Freedom Caucus,

but which he has since tried to clarify, was actually about specific members, calling them performance artists and grifters. It's this position on the 2020 election that's made him a number of enemies in Washington and in the conservative media, and that now seems to be driving the biggest wedge between some Republican voters and Dan Crenshaw, like those at this Christian Collins rally. Can you tell me about your shirt and what it says? Yes, my shirt says, don't blame me, I voted for Trump.

And I hear that a lot from people that it's like, well, I voted. Another person we met at the rally is Phil Cady. He's a former airline mechanic who told us that he left his job after the company announced a vaccine mandate. He too was angry at Crenshaw for his position on the 2020 election. I don't think he really supported any kind of revisiting of the election. But also... January 6th. KD told us that he himself was at the Capitol on that day, though he says that he didn't go inside, but he feels Crenshaw has betrayed the people who were there. to get out of jail. Why isn't he speaking up? You know, why aren't our own Republicans standing up for the fraudulent elections?

We're trying to get them out. Just as President Trump is supporting candidates to unseat some of these other Republicans because they've lost their way. They've got no spine to stand up and do what's right for the people. Phil is right. Donald Trump's singular litmus test for who he's going to support in the 2022 elections is all about whether or not they accepted the 2020 election results. In fact,

at the end of January, when Trump came to Texas and had a rally just outside of Houston, At the end of January, when Trump came to Texas and had a rally just outside of Houston, he recognized a lot of the politicians in the crowd, calling them out by name, praising them. There was just one congressman there who Trump noticeably left out, Dan Crenshaw. And I've since been told that was no accident. In the Republican Party today, there's really only one fault line that counts, and it has nothing to do with policy. It's all about the question of Donald J. Trump and election fraud.

And are you with him or are you against him? And for many, if you're against him, you're a rhino. He does have a great shoes here. What is your sense of Dan Crenshaw? Rhino, we need to get him out. Why, what is your objections to Dan Crenshaw? Rhino, we need to get him out. Why? What is your objections to Dan Crenshaw? He's for Liz Cheney. He's all for the big rhinos, the people that hate Trump.

He's against the people that like Trump, like Marjorie Channing-Green, who's supposedly here today. So yeah, Crenshaw became a traitor to us. He hates Trump. In the kind of political coincidence that is rarely an accident, it wasn't much of a surprise that one of the speakers at the rally,

in fact, the headliner, was someone that Crenshaw has feuded with most publicly. Well, I will say I love all of you too. Georgia Representative Marjorie Taylor Greene. Really excited. Texas is such a great state. Oh, wow. You guys are amazing. Absolutely amazing. Crenshaw has gone so far as to call her an idiot. And the understanding was that she was one of the people he was referring to when he said that the party had been taken over by performance artists and grifters. But the reason why I'm here is for a very specific reason. It's time to draw a line in the sand.

Technically, Marjorie Taylor Greene was there to rally support for Christian Collins. But it was clear that she wasn't just thinking about this one district. She was talking about remaking the entire Republican Party. That whole Bush, Cheney wing of the party needs to go. And it's okay for us to fight out and work out our differences in the GOP conference. I oftentimes argue with someone you might know named Dan Crenshaw. And I sure do not like people calling themselves a conservative, but all they really are is a performance artist themselves.

I like real conservatives, the ones that don't say it, but they actually do it. And this is why I'm saying we have to draw the line in the sand and it's time to embrace the And so as we're watching all this, I see how the incentive structures for politicians are changing in real time. Not only has Trump's power and influence over the Republican Party created this litmus test along which Republicans are now dividing, or a civil war, as Marjorie Taylor Greene put it.

But the redistricting process itself is reinforcing that. By the time all the lines are drawn this year, as many as 90% of congressional seats will only be competitive in the primaries, when only the most fervent voters tend to turn out, and where moderation and compromise are often punished. Now, that doesn't mean that redistricting guarantees that the most extreme candidates will win, but it does change the parameters of the debate. So in District 8, Christian Collins has centered his race on his support of Trump, and he has repeatedly spread the falsehood that the 2020 election was stolen. But his opponent, Morgan Luttrell, the candidate that Dan Crenshaw has endorsed, he's also supported that claim. All of which begs the question of whether it would even be possible for a candidate to run in this district

with any other point of view. And all of that made us very eager to talk to Dan Crenshaw himself. Hi, I was just calling you. Yes, I saw you. Hi, I was just calling you. Yes, I saw. Hi, I'm Shane. Nice to meet you, Shane. Come on in. Hi, Diana. Hi, Diana. Nice to meet you.

Can I get y'all coffee or water? So a couple days after the rally, and about a week before the primary, Diana and I showed up at Congressman Crenshaw's office. It's just west of downtown Houston, which means it's not actually in the district he's running in anymore. And because the congressman's running late, Sue Walden, his political director, gives us a tour of the office. And then this is our new district.

We finally got a map. We start in the conference room, where there's this big map of his new district on the wall. It's very different. I mean, I wish we had the other one up here to show you, but our other district, we didn't have this. We came down here a little bit more. Previously, the second congressional district was a shape that's pretty hard to explain. It's almost like it's surrounding Houston on three sides. It snakes around the city, starting on the east, to the north, and to the west.

And we went down to where we're sitting right here is the district. And then it goes around to the Montrose area, West U Rice, which is very liberal, very Democrat. And it absorbs some of the most liberal neighborhoods in Houston. So it was an interesting district. and it absorbed some of the most liberal neighborhoods in Houston. So it was an interesting district. Now the map is actually a lot less bizarre looking. It takes in suburbs north of the city and the same old parts of the east that he represented before.

But those old liberal neighborhoods have been entirely swapped out for new, more conservative ones. And those changes, they made Crenshaw's seat basically safe for Republicans for the next decade. And as Sue's showing us around, we spot this other painting on the opposite wall.

And that one really catches our attention. At first, it just looks like a scene out of the Texas Revolution. But if you look at the faces there, you'll see... Oh, Dan Crenshaw's face, yeah. But when we look more closely, there's more there. It is a scene out of the Texas Revolution,

except there in the fight is Dan Crenshaw, along with a few other notable people. Who else is on this? You got the Trumps. That's just a friend of ours, Joe Slovacek, the Trump Pence. I see Pence, Eric. Isn't that Jared? Oh, yeah, that's Don Jr.

That's Don Jr., yeah. Basically what you have is this battle scene with Dan Crenshaw waving a come-and-take-it flag, the Trump sons, Donald Jr. and Eric, Mike Pence, all their faces sort of grafted onto the bodies of these various Texas revolutionaries. And across the way, riding a horse into battle, is President Donald J. Trump.

And so Crenshaw's relationship with Trump, it's complicated. And I'm getting excited to ask him about it. And just then, he walks in the door. Congressman? Hi. Hi. Shane Goldmacher.

Hi. Thanks for making the time. Nice to meet y'all. Hi. Hi, Diana. Nice to meet you. And so we go into this media room that has a big green screen where Crenshaw records a lot of his television appearances. Do you want coffee, Dan, or anything?

No, I'm fine. Okay. How long are we going to... We sit down. He cracks open a 24-ounce sugar-free Monster Energy drink, and we begin. Well, thanks for making the time. I really appreciate it.

I wanted to sort of start back in 2018 when you were first running for office and you first got elected and you were pretty immediately tagged as a rising star in the Republican Party, the future of the party. And I kind of want to know what you made of that. What did you think people meant by that at that time and what you represented that made you the future of the party at that moment? It's good. Jeez, I don't know. I don't really think about that question very often. You know, I don't, it's all been a little bit surreal. The allure has certainly worn off. I'll say that much. What the future of the Republican Party should be is people who can

make better arguments on the left. And what happens too often is it becomes a contest of who hates the left the most. That's not a persuasive argument. And that's what I represented back then. That's what I represent now. You know, it's, I don't think a lot's changed, really. That's what got me famous, right? It was, you know, this sort of moment on Saturday Night Live. And that's what I've tried to stick to, to the greatest extent possible. in 2018. And it really seems like the reason revolves not about policy positions that you've taken or specific votes for the most part, but, you know, your relationship to Donald Trump and to sort of the Trumpism movement in general. And so I guess, as I think about this, there's this key moment where you gave that speech in 2020 at the RNC, and you didn't talk about him at all. You didn't use his name. You talked about American heroes.

And I wanted to know, you know, why not? Yeah, you know, it's probably good to go to the RNC speech to explain this because it is a good example. And it's an example of the following. There's a big difference between Trump and the Trump family and the movement around that. So I have a good relationship with Trump and the Trump family and the movement around that. So I have a good relationship with Trump and the Trump family. You know, I think it's this manufactured division that there's some rift between me and Trump. That's just not true. And the RNC speech is a good example of this because they tasked me

with writing a speech about American heroes. They didn't say write a speech about the president. And then the little staffers got mad afterwards because we didn't talk about the president. Why didn't you talk about the president? Because you told us to write this speech. Like there's, so there's no, there's no conspiracy here. Like there's, there's no, there's no there, there. It's just this, this silliness. Can I ask you about, you said you have a great relationship with him. Are you guys in touch? How would you describe your relationship?

I talked to him recently. I went to the rally here in Houston recently. I spoke with him on the phone with me and Kevin McCarthy and him a week before that. I had a cordial conversation. He's always hearing things because, look, I have enemies, of course, on the right. That's what you're getting at effectively.

And, look, that's the establishment that doesn't want people like me to rise too quickly. What's the establishment? Exactly. I'm going to explain that because I view the establishment differently than what most people say the establishment is. Most people say the establishment is Kevin McCarthy and Mitch McConnell and the RNC. That's not the establishment. They're trying to hang on by a thread. They're trying to wrangle cats.

Okay, that's what leadership is doing. The establishment is these sort of wannabe social media influencers, these radio hosts, these podcasters. It's mostly these folks in the media that are so ingrained in the cancel culture of the right. That's what I'm fighting against. And they view me as a threat because I don't really toe the line in the way that they want. Whatever it is they want, it's funny because it's hard to discern what makes them different and who them really is. We all believe the same things. So it's this manufactured divisions. There's no policy differences, really, between people who label themselves conservative, people who label themselves America first, people who label themselves MAGA.

But there is a big difference now, right? The big difference that really seems to be dividing the Republican Party is, do you say and believe that the 2020 election was stolen? I think that's less of an issue. I mean, it bubbles up every once in a while. We get it the Republican Party is, do you say and believe that the 2020 election was stolen? I think that's less of an issue. I mean, it bubbles up every once in a while. We get it at, you know, questions about it, concerns. But it's, look, we also do polling. So we've got a much wider swath of the population, and it does not rank very high. This is not what people have asked about over the last year. People are much more concerned about inflation and the border crisis, things like that. So it's, I'm not saying, I agree that it's inflation and the border is a bigger issue for voters. I guess it's almost become like table stakes to be a real Republican now. By polling, 70, 80% of the Republicans and 100% of the people I've met

out here think the election was stolen. And so I wanted to just ask, when you talk about speaking out about performance artists and grifters, when you talk about taking on some part of the base of your party, I want to ask you why. Because it's definitely not the easier pathway, and it's definitely not the safer political pathway. So why are you doing it? And it's definitely not the safer political pathway. So why are you doing it? I don't know.

Well, again, I have to take a step back and say this isn't the battle that you kind of make it out to be. It's just so much less dramatic than that. When people are polled, you have to take a lot of these things with a grain of salt. It has become sort of a reaction. Oh, yeah, it was stolen. Some people mean different things by that. Some people mean, well, the media stole it by characterizing Donald Trump in the most nefarious of ways in a way that wasn't honest and true. And so some people mean it that way. So it kind of depends. And once you got to dig deeper into people's opinions, and again, is this the driving force for them? My polling wouldn't suggest that it is. I know our media engagement wouldn't suggest that

it is. It wouldn't suggest that it's this big dramatic division the way a lot of people... I don't think it's a division in the Republican Party. I think that the base of the Republican Party thinks the last election was stolen. Right. But if I'm like, hey, guys, I'm not so sure about that, I'm still doing okay. So that's why my conclusion is it's not as dramatic of an event or phenomenon as maybe some seem to think it is. And why do it? Well, like, I just stick to what's defensible. I stick to what I can say in all honesty is true. And if that pisses people off, it pisses people off.

I'm usually pissing off people on the left, but sometimes I piss off people on the right. So, you know, in the end, in the end, it's truth is the North Star. I mean, are there members of Congress that you think of as performance artists and grifters? There are some. I will not name them on a New York Times podcast or interview, but, you know, it's pretty clear I think there's some. I will not name them on a New York Times podcast or interview, but it's pretty clear I think there's some. I just wouldn't characterize the Freedom Caucus that way, not as a whole. by grifters and liars were what I already talked to you about, right? This sort of cabal of establishment that I was talking about who are trying to monetize division and outrage on the right. They manufacture divisions, again, by labeling people different things. They don't really know what the differences are as far as policy or what they stand for. They don't really go that deep. It's more a matter of style. So, I mean, it happens. It

happens a lot more on the right and the left than I think it used to. That's for sure. I want to just go back to the thing on Trump, because you were at the rally that was in your district, and he called out and recognized a lot of members of Congress who were there, but he didn't recognize you. Was there any meaning behind that? I don't know. I don't know. Could be, again, the staffers that I talked about, because I just talked. He invited me to the rally a few days before. He also neglected to mention quite a few other people who were sitting there. I don't know if there were other members of Congress that didn't get mentioned. Louie Gohmert, it looks like they left him off the list as well.

The only reason he got, because Trump was looking and he saw him, oh, Louie,hmert, it looks like they left him off the list as well. The only reason he got hit was because Trump was looking and he saw him. Oh, Louie, what's up? I don't think too much of it. I don't really care. And have you asked for his endorsement in 2022 or have you not asked Trump for it? Yeah, I don't even know how that works. I guess I haven't asked. We're not even sure who to ask, to be honest.

So the reason we're in Texas is it's the first state with midterms and all the districts in every state are getting redrawn. And the remapping here is, I think, particularly dramatic. Just in the Houston area, there were four seats that were competitive at the presidential election last cycle, and there are none now. You used to have one of them now. You don't. And basically, with every single seat being wiped away, I wanted to ask you, when you get rid of competitive seats, what is the impact for democracy? This is a deeper political science question, and it's an interesting one to explore. Call it gerrymandering, call it whatever you want. I

think highly politicized districts or highly partisan districts, deep red or deep blue, you can't ignore their contribution to some kind of division within the country. I think it exists, that contribution. However, if that were to be the case, then the same divisions wouldn't exist in the Senate. And yet they do, almost in the exact same way. Can I push back, though, on the House and Senate districts? Because let's go back to the election, right? I think it was 139 members of the House Republican caucus voted not to certify the 2020 election, a majority of your colleagues. But it was a small fraction of the Senate Republican caucus that didn't vote to certify the election. It was, I don't know, the number, maybe eight, nine? I'm not sure that everything centers back to this certification of the election.

I don't think it necessarily does. Because I'm looking at the aggregate over years. That's one example of senators. Look, the Senate's always going to be slower and a little less extreme than the House. But the divisions that we've seen throughout our country certainly exist in the Senate in a pretty serious way. So that's why I'm just saying, like, I'm not saying there's no effect from gerrymandering, but I think it's much, much less than people give it credit for. Look, I think voters are self-sorting into these districts too, right? Like, inner Houston is all Democratic and exurbs are like more Republican than they used to be.

But I do think people running statewide who have to take in cities, suburbs, and exurbs are behaving differently. I mean you agree too that the districts are making some difference. But I do think – I just want to push back on that idea that it's not – that it's entirely the same. The Senate's – I mean the Senate's different. But the Senate's different for some of those reasons. It's pretty close. the same in the Senate. The Senate's, I mean, the Senate's different, but the Senate's different for some of those reasons. It's pretty close. I mean, I'm just getting to the main point being that there's a lot of reasons for the sorting of America into left and right divisions. Look,

it is the urban-rural divide. Suburbia has become the swing districts of America. The urban centers are unattainable for Republicans. The rural districts are unattainable for Democrats. So that self-sorting has happened over the years. Social media has probably had a much greater role than any of these factors as far as the seething anger that Americans feel for each other. So, you know, if I were to place one culprit on that, I would probably go with social media. Gerrymandering has been around forever. You're never going to get rid of political redistricting because there's not really a better option. You're not going to have some formula. I mean, it's just, it is what we have. So,

we spend a lot of time complaining about it. I mean, I always kind of laughed when left-wing Twitter would always post under any comment I made. They would post a picture of my district as if this was proof that I was somehow corrupt because my district is shaped funny. It's like, I didn't draw it. I got into this job, you know, last year. I didn't need you guys' hand memory for this. And also, what is it about the shape of a district that makes it corrupt? Really? I mean, really, nobody thinks that through that next step. And I just kind of find it funny as sort of a philosophical slash political science question. Why? And it's just in academic terms, why? And nobody can really

answer that. I mean, my old district was very ethnically balanced, looked a lot like Texas looks. And now my district doesn't look gerrymandered at all. Now my new district looks like a pond. My old one looked like a river running around Houston. What does your new district look like? Like a pond. Like it's, you know, it's just a normal looking shape. And so that's not, there's nothing wrong with that. But it's also not competitive, whereas my old district was. Now, the real question. With your new district, with the fact that it's not competitive,

it is potentially competitive. It's just only competitive potentially in a Republican primary, right? There's basically no chance you're going to lose your seat to a Democrat in the next 10 years. And while you might not have said there was much of a chance you would have lost to a Democrat in your old seat, it was at least conceivably possible. I mean, what do you think it does for you personally that you can only be challenged from the right? And then what does it mean for your party that so many people can only be challenged from the extremes in their parties? It changes nothing for me. Absolutely nothing. And I'd be really interested to see what your findings are

in about a year or two. Because the only way for you to met, this will be the answer, really. Because now that we've gone through this redistricting process, and we've seen this great sorting throughout the country, to right and left districts. So what you'll be able to then assess is that the members who went from a purple district like mine to a deep blue or a deep red, you'll be able to assess if their behavior radically changed. But the formal title also is representative, right? So like, are you going to represent your district? So the math is that your old district was one and a half percent Trump district in 2020,

basically the equivalent of North Carolina. Your new district is 20, 23 percentage points for Trump, somewhere between Utah and Alabama. So if you're going to be a representative, should you be changing? Should you be considering changing listening to these new constituents? Again, I default to I think it's much deeper than that. I don't think you're going to see a lot of formerly moderate members turn into radical leftists or radical right-wingers. I just don't think you're going to see that. You're certainly not going to see it with me. And not that I was ever moderate. That's kind of the big joke, right? It's just that I just don't yell and scream real loud. And somebody, well,

you must be moderate. No, I just, I take a tone that doesn't turn people off. You should try it. You know, it works quite well. That ain't going to change. And I'm not a robot that just puts his, looks his finger, puts it up to the wind and sees which way it's going and then votes accordingly. That's not why you elected me. You elected me because I said I stand for these sets of principles and I will make judgments accordingly. That's why you elected me, for my problem-solving capability, for my moral framework. That's what I ran on. Yeah. problem-solving capability, for my moral framework. That's what I ran on.

Yeah. At the Christian Collins rally over the weekend that was attended by Marjorie Taylor Greene and Madison Cawthorn and a slew of other people that have been critical of you, you came up a lot, not just on stage, which I presume you've seen from the clips from Marjorie Taylor Greene and others, but among the voters. And the thing that they said, and one person at the end really struck me, because so many people called you a rhino, and I'm sure you know this, but the person at the end of the night that we talked to said, he came in and he thought positively of you. I don't know if he'd voted for you before, he may not have been in your district, but he said, look, from what I'm hearing, he's a rhino. I'm hearing it all day. And if it talks like a duck and quacks like a duck, maybe it's a duck.

And so I guess he's a rhino. And so with these people with megaphones in your party calling you a rhino, what does that do as you're running? I mean, you face really token opposition this year. I think you've outraged anybody by 100 to 1. But what does that do over time for a person who just a couple years ago was a future of the Republican Party figure? That's not the kind of label that those people get. Yeah, I mean, I don't really care. I just don't really care. You know, it's chirping. It's chirping. It's chirping from the fringe, and it's sad.

It's sad, right? Because I see what you just described. I see it. It's on social media. I see it with people. Well, they said you're a rhino. Why? I don't know.

Well, then maybe don't take it at face value then. If they can't even come up with a single example, the quickest way to a conservative's heart is to call some other conservative a rhino. That's the clickbait. Explain that. That's fascinating. Well, conservatives have a natural concern about big government, a natural concern about people betraying them from their own side. And so they're very susceptible to these kind of arguments. The fact that we even have a word for it.

Democrats just don't. They don't deal in this the way the right does. And so, look, do I care? No, not really. And look, I wish more regular voters, like the guy you talked about who supported me one second, and then the next second didn't because we heard something. He's not sure what, but he heard something. I wish they would discern. I wish they would understand that that's the game, the trick being played on them. You started by saying you got into politics because you believe in making better arguments that can better persuade people to the Republican side. And I guess I wanted to know with these new districts, whether there are any House candidates who are Republican in Texas who have to care about that.

Like, you don't have to care about that. Your district doesn't sharpen your arguments anymore. You don't need to sharpen your arguments to persuade the left. Yeah, that's true. It's kind of sad, isn't it? I still will because it's all I care about. And look, and if that doesn't win out, then the Republican Party is doomed. But that philosophy needs to win out. This idea that winning means persuading, that fighting means persuading, not just fighting for your own fundraising and fighting for the attention of the base. You know, if that philosophy loses out, then there's no hope. I think Americans have to wake up to the fact that primaries matter.

If I get an earful from plenty of Democrats that think AOC is an embarrassment to their party, okay, well, like how many people voted in that primary when she unseated Cowley? How many, like nobody, you know, I mean, it's, get involved in your primaries. The same goes for both sides. So it's, it's important. There's, there are differences in people and honesty and integrity and experience. And you can't just assume that the best person is going to come out of a primary. Thank you. You've been super generous with your time. Thank you. And nice to meet you in person.

Yeah, of course. Absolutely. And I would love to come back. Thanks, Wolf. There's another big story that we're following tonight. Results are coming in from the Texas primaries. This is the first big contest of the 2022 election year, testing the influence of former President Trump on the Republican Party.

On Tuesday night, Texas held the first primaries of 2022. And as expected, Dan Crenshaw won. Big, drawing nearly 75% of the vote. The bastion of conservatism that is Montgomery County, the successor to Kevin Brady in Congressional District 8. I was surprised by Luttrell. He's up above 50% white right now. Morgan Luttrell won his race too, with more than twice as many votes as Christian Collins.

Both were decisive wins for the so-called establishment wing of the Republican Party, and quickly touted signs that even in the reddest of districts, voters won't necessarily go with the most right-wing candidates. But of course, Donald Trump didn't endorse neither of those races. And in all 33 races that he did, the Texas Republicans he backed won or are on track to do so. There were also some signs that it can be perilous to cross Trump.

Take Van Taylor. He's a two-term incumbent congressman from up in Dallas, who just like Dan Crenshaw, had his formerly competitive seat completely transformed into a Republican stronghold through redistricting. His opponents this year in the primary pounded him for voting to confirm the 2020 election results and for voting to create the January 6th commission. Van Taylor was forced into a runoff, which is a rare outcome for an incumbent. In the days since,

a personal scandal forced him to withdraw from the race. Now, the seat's going to go to the other leading candidate, a Republican who centered his campaign on election fraud and attacking Van Taylor for the votes he took. I spoke with Crenshaw's team yesterday. They told me they're hoping the results out of Texas will help, quote, shut up the congressman's critics. At the same time, right-wing political operatives in the area have told me they're already

working to find someone who can put up a meaningful fight against Crenshaw in 2024. We'll be right back. Here's what else you need to know today. On Thursday, Russian forces laid siege to urban areas across southern Ukraine, striking apartment buildings, pharmacies, and a hospital as they continued to target civilian populations. In the day's most alarming development, Russian forces shelled a nuclear power complex in the city of Zafariyia, triggering a dangerous fire at the plan. But Russian troops made little progress in overtaking the capital of Kyiv, where a miles-long

convoy of soldiers and equipment remained stalled about 18 miles outside the city. I want to say that the special military operation is in strict accordance with the schedule. In televised remarks, Russian President Vladimir Putin rejected claims that his military was faring poorly in Ukraine, saying that the war was proceeding, quote, strictly according to schedule. Today's episode was produced by Diana Nguyen and Rachel Quester. It was edited by Lisa Tobin, contains original music by Dan Powell and Marion Lozano, and was engineered by Chris Wood.

Our theme music is by Jim Brunberg and Ben Landsberg of Wonderly. That's it for The Daily. I'm Michael Barbaro. See you on Monday.