The Daily - The Disappearance of a Saudi Journalist

Episode Date: October 11, 2018

Saudi Arabia’s crown prince has promoted himself to the West as a reformer determined to create a more free and open society. That image is unraveling as a prominent Saudi journalist and dissident remains missing. Guest: Carlotta Gall, the Istanbul bureau chief of The New York Times. For more information on today’s episode, visit nytimes.com/thedaily.

From The New York Times, I'm Michael Barbaro. This is The Daily. Today. Saudi Arabia's crown prince has promoted himself to the West as a reformer determined to create a more free and open society. How the disappearance of a journalist in Turkey is unraveling that image. It's Thursday, October 11th. Okay, so it was midday on Tuesday, October the 2nd. It's a leafy residential district in Istanbul where some

of the consulates are and there's some nice hotels. And this couple turns up at the Saudi Arabian consulate. And the gentleman went in and his fiancee, who's Turkish, stayed on the sidewalk. fiancé, who's Turkish, stayed on the sidewalk. He handed both his cell phones to her, and he's going in to pick up a document so that they can get married. Carlotta Gall is the Istanbul bureau chief for The Times. So this was a Saudi citizen. He turned out to be someone that a lot of us knew. It was Jamal Khashoggi, a famous veteran journalist covering the Middle East. He's known for being a journalist for over 30 years from Saudi Arabia, but also being very well connected with the government and the royal family. So he worked as an advisor to Prince Turki bin Faisal, who was the ambassador first in London and then Washington. And then in Washington, he was literally a spokesman

for the embassy. He was somebody people could call. So that's how professionally he became both a journalist, but also someone very hooked in to help explain this obscure world of the kingdom of Saudi Arabia. So it sounds like he occupied this space that doesn't really exist in the U.S., which is to be a loyalist to the Saudi government, as well as a respected journalist covering it and explaining it to the outside world. Yeah, I think that's what you see in many of the countries that I follow and live in, in countries that aren't fully democratic. I think in those societies you can be both. And so he was very useful to both his country, but also to many others to understand events of the Middle East and of Saudi Arabia.

Change is coming to a kingdom once stuck firmly in the past. So then we have new developments in Saudi Arabia. The new crown prince of Saudi Arabia is ushering in a wave of cultural change. We have Prince Mohammed bin Salman becoming the power in Saudi Arabia. His father is the king, but he's the power behind the throne. He's young, he's ambitious, and he's keen to enact reforms and bring changes to Saudi Arabia. Women will soon be allowed to drive,

and the dreaded religious police are being reined in. He's allowing women into sports stadiums for the first time, and a stampede of Saudi women is now joining the workforce. The prince said the country has become addicted to oil and that a small part of the state-owned oil giant Aramco will be privatized. And this is embraced by many people, many people in the West, but also by Jamal Khashoggi. He is doing the most greatest favor for us in Saudi Arabia. Number one, he is announcing a verge on corruption. That is huge.

But steadily over time, and particularly in the last year, Jamal started to have concerns. It's been called Saudi Arabia's game of thrones. The kingdom of Saudi Arabia has arrested dozens of top officials, from princes to ministers to officials in the armed forces. Dissent is silenced. Call calls for change are censored, and even messages on social media can invite imprisonment and punishment. Free speech has come under increasing attack ever since Mohammed bin Salman took over as the crown prince last year. Several Muslim preachers are in prison.

Mohammed bin Salman jailed senior members of the royal family, businessmen and government officials on corruption charges. But the sweeping campaign of arrests spread to outspoken reformers, clerics and human rights activists. And so last year he left the country and went into self-imposed exile in Washington. And then what we saw was his columns, which he wrote for the global section of the Washington Post, became increasingly critical of the prince.

He has control of everything. He is creating an environment of intimidation and fear. Saudis are being silenced. As we speak today, there are Saudi intellectuals and journalists jailed. Now nobody will dare to speak and criticize the reform they like. And of the reforms that he was enacting, which had their dark side, as he described it. The private companies, they were involved in corruption, but we should give them the benefit of the doubt that they had to be

corrupt because the royals made them corrupt. Those companies must survive under a new system, under a more transparent system. He was increasingly outspoken. And when he left the country and had this global platform through the Washington Post, I think his voice was increased enormously. And that angered the government in Saudi Arabia. So given all that, what was the initial suspicion about what had happened to Khashoggi when he disappeared last Tuesday inside the consulate? So the first we knew is that he didn't come out at the close of business at 4 p.m. But the feeling was that he was inside. And so the first thing we did was reach his

fiance and his friends who were standing outside the consulate until one in the morning that night. She went to the consulate door and said, what happened? He didn't come out. And they said, we're closed. There's no one here. She then called a friend of Jamal's who's in the government because he told her, if I don Saudis came out with this comment that, oh, he left. He left, you know, soon after he arrived. In other words, he came for his meeting and he already left. Suggesting that his fiance could have missed him. And the police, there were Turkish police around every consulate. And they have their cameras and they'd already checked the cameras, and they were adamant that he had not emerged from the consulate.

So I think, you know, in those first hours, his friends were just going through every scenario, but the great question was why would the Saudi consulate detain him, prevent him from leaving, especially at the end of their day. So then Wednesday evening, I happened to be talking to some government officials, one of whom is a security official. And of course, I asked them about this case I'm working on it and one of them slightly casually says to me well he might be dead and although a journalist should prick their ears up I I dismissed it. Why? Partly because he didn't say it as it was information that he knew

he was just throwing it out there as it could be you know so it took a couple more days where everyone was worried about where was he, and there was increasing demands to tell them about his whereabouts. And it was only by the end of that week, Friday, that we actually got Turkish officials telling us that they feared he was dead. The mystery deepens tonight over the fate of Jamal Khashoggi. This is a bizarre and disturbing story. His friends fear the worst. Turan Keselaki says Turkish officials told him Khashoggi was killed at the consulate. Turkish officials have told journalists they believe Khashoggi was murdered inside the consulate. But so far, they've provided no evidence to back that claim up.

So this was the difficulty for us reporting the story. They gave us no proof. We were just relying on Turkish officials telling us things and we couldn't firm up what they were telling us. And then after the weekend, suddenly the floodgates opened. the floodgates opened. So it turns out that two private jet planes from Saudi Arabia

flew in that morning carrying 15 Saudi officials and crew. And they arrive at different times and they drive to the consulate, the Saudi consulate, where that same day jamal kashogi went in for his meeting and so we've had slowly the footage of the cars driving has been

revealed the number plates but more important the details of the arrival of the jets and what's even more strange is that they left the same day so they brought in these 15 saudi arabians they all went to the consulate they also checked into hotels and they left the same day so steadily we got more information and it became clear that they came in two teams and the turkish officials started describing them as a hit squad. They came with boxes and, you know, suitcases. They also went to the bazaar and bought more suitcases on their way in. And then they went into the consulate. At some stage in the afternoon, they left the consulate,

went to the airport and flew away. But there's more that's coming out. And one of the details, which is particularly gory, is that among the equipment that the 15 Saudis brought in with them was a bone sore. So the accumulation of information is pointing to the theory put forward by some Turkish officials that he was killed within a couple of hours of entering the consulate and dismembered and taken from the consulate in suitcases or boxes that were loaded into the cars. All the information that you're describing since Khashoggi disappeared inside the consulate came from the Turkish government, a government that has long had a rivalry, a complicated regional relationship with Saudi Arabia. So is there any reason to be skeptical of this account

being made for what happened inside the Saudi consulate? Of course, we should be skeptical. And intelligence officials or security officials and diplomats we know are often careless with the truth. So we have to obviously check. But one of the most compelling answers to that is, where is Jamal Khashoggi? He didn't turn up. He didn't come back to his fiancée. This is what I think makes us think, or at least listen to the Turkish story. And now that they are releasing the details of the Saudis who flew in that day, and journalists are already being able to corroborate the movement of these private jets that came in and left again. So we're all piecing it together,

but the fundamental question remains is where is Jamal Khashoggi, and the Saudis don't have an answer to that. Karla, you told us that Mohammed bin Salman has been determined to portray himself as a reformer to the West, as somebody who is trying to open up Saudi Arabia and bring it in line with the Western world. Saudi Arabia was behind it, it would seem like an almost willfully reckless reinforcement of the darker reputation of Mohammed bin Salman in a way that would very much tarnish his reputation all over the West. So why would he ever do it? I mean, yes, you're completely right. It looks like a dark, unbalanced reaction, an excessive way to silence a critic who was important and voluble, but the critic, he's not an enemy. But I think you have to then also

always remember that lesson of understanding the Middle East or other foreign countries in their own terms. And the way I read it is someone like Mohammed bin Salman is still consolidating his power, but also showing his enemies or his rivals what he's made of. And in fact, they've done a quite overt action, not covering their tracks very much. So they were showing that they were leaving a signal and therefore, I think, sending a direct message to other exiles, other critics, but also to the Turkish government that this is what we can do and this is who we are. And so I think it's an expression of his power, maybe misguided, but I think he intended to send a message of great strength and great cruelty. But the risk that was taken here is that it tests the tolerance of that country, Turkey,

and the rest of the entire world that cares about the question of sovereignty. And so I wonder what those countries, what are they willing to tolerate from Saudi Arabia right now? Turkey is acting actually quite cautiously. They're releasing all this information because they want the support in the West behind them. So I think it shows you the power of Saudi Arabia. Countries are careful not to upset them because of their wealth and their power and their importance in the Middle East. And I think for some governments, they've become deeply involved in backing Mohammed bin Salman and his reforms, and not least the administration of President Trump.

Can I ask you about Jamal al-Shahbaz? Yes. Are you concerned that he's dead and he'll hold the Saudi government? I would be certainly concerned. In fact, we have a call in to his wife. His wife wrote us a letter and addressed it to my wife and myself. And we're in contact with her now, and we want to bring her to the White House. It's a very sad situation. It's a very bad situation, and we want to get to the bottom of it.

And what has been the reaction so far from the West? It's been muted. So I think there is horror at this story. But if you notice, the politicians have been slow and are not saying too much. I don't want to make, I don't want to say that. I hope he's not, I hope he's not. Would you hold the Saudi government responsible? Well, I have to find out who did it. But people saw him go in, but they didn't see him come out, as they understand it.

And we're going to take a very serious look at it. It's a terrible thing. Have you spoken to the Saudis? I'd rather not say, but the answer is yes. I think if this was a smaller, less important country, we would have had denunciations much more rapidly. I would have thought the public outrage at this story and the horror, I mean, it's really a horror movie that we are now understanding unfolded in this quiet, leafy street of Istanbul. I think that

might still carry a lot of weight with politicians. I think they're gonna have to hold Prince Mohammed bin Salman at arm's length for a while after this. I'd rather not say, But at a very high level. The highest level. Let me say this. It's the highest level. Yeah. And more than once.

But I think we will also see some careful diplomatic phrasing. You had mentioned that you spoke to the King Salman. Well, I do anyway. And I've always found him to be a fine man. We've had a very good relationship. I'm not happy about this. We have to see what happens, you know.

We have to see what happens. Nobody knows what happened yet. They don't know over there. But it's a very serious situation, and it's something we're taking very seriously. And probably in the end, business as usual. Carolina, thank you very much. We appreciate it. Thank you. On Wednesday evening, four members of the U.S. Senate, two Republicans and two Democrats,

called for an investigation into Saudi Arabia's role in the disappearance of Jamal Khashoggi. If that investigation finds Saudi Arabia responsible for killing Khashoggi, then under a two-year-old federal law designed to punish violations of human rights, the Trump administration must impose sanctions on Saudi Arabia.

We'll be right back. Here's what else you need to know today. Hurricane Michael is a deadly Category 4 storm. This is the worst storm that the Florida Panhandle has seen in more than 100 years. Again, this is the worst storm that our Florida Panhandle has seen in a century. On Wednesday afternoon, Hurricane Michael made landfall on the coast of the Florida Panhandle, carrying winds of up to 155 miles per hour and creating storm surges of up to 13 feet. Holy hell!

of up to 13 feet. Holy hell! Local officials say that the hurricane, the strongest storm on record to hit the region, escalated so quickly from a tropical storm to a Category 4 hurricane that there was little time for evacuations, which could complicate recovery efforts. could complicate recovery efforts.

And on Wednesday, the FBI said that a Chinese government spy had been extradited to the U.S. on charges of espionage, marking the first time that a Chinese intelligence official will face prosecution on American soil. The Times reports that the spy has repeatedly sought to steal trade secrets from American aviation companies and was lured to Belgium, a U.S. ally, by federal agents in a sting operation. I'm reluctant to try to rank threats, but I would tell you that I think China in many ways represents the broadest, most complicated, most long-term counterintelligence threat we face.

The decision to bring the spy to the U.S. marks a major escalation in the Trump administration's effort to crack down on Chinese spying, which FBI Director Christopher Wray on Wednesday called a major threat to national security. Russia is in many ways fighting to stay relevant after the fall of the Soviet Union. They're fighting today's fight. China is fighting tomorrow's fight and the day after tomorrow and the day after that. And it affects every sector of our economy, every state in the country, and just about every aspect of what we hold dear. So certainly it's a very significant counterintelligence threat. That's it for The Daily. I'm Michael Barber. See you tomorrow.