The Daily - ‘The Dreams We Had Are Like a Dream’

Episode Date: March 25, 2022

Since the Taliban took control of Afghanistan last year, thousands of women and girls who were in school or had jobs were forced back into their homes.The Daily producers Lynsea Garrison and Stella Tan have been talking to women and girls across the country about their lives under Taliban rule — and about what kind of future they now face.Background reading: The Taliban has reneged on its promise to open Afghanistan’s girls’ schools. The reversal could threaten aid as international officials had made girls’ education a condition for greater assistance.Want more from The Daily? For one big idea on the news each week from our team, subscribe to our newsletter. For more information on today’s episode, visit nytimes.com/thedaily. Transcripts of each episode will be made available by the next workday.

Do you remember what your last day of school was like? Actually, I remember it very clearly. It was, I cannot tell you how much I miss high school and how much I miss the past Afghanistan and Kabul that we had. That day, like, everything was very, very exciting because they had a special ceremony for us. So it was a goodbye party for all the graduates and we were all dressed up with our clothes. So it was like a suit.

Like we really looked great. Like I, whenever I have the photos of that day, I still see myself sitting on the chair with my diploma in my hand, looking super, super proud. Oh, wow. Even now, when I think of that day, my heart is like feeling a deep pain because I'm not sure that I can feel that excitement ever and ever again. And I know that the girls in my school, they also miss that day very, very badly. From The New York Times, I'm Sabrina Tavernisi. This is The Daily. It's been seven months since the Taliban took control of Afghanistan and forced millions of women who were in schools or the workforce back into their homes.

Throughout that time, my colleagues, Lindsay Garrison and Stella Tan, have been talking to girls from around the country about how their lives have changed and what kind of future they now face in Afghanistan. It's Friday, March 25th. Hello? Hello, Ms. Lindsay Garrison. Hi, Fasima. Nice to hear your voice. Thank you. I'm also so happy to be talking to you.

How are you today? I'm great. How about you? I'm good. Thank you so much. Well, I would just love to get to know you. Just anything you're able to tell me about yourself. Okay, so. Okay, should I start now? Yeah. Okay. My name is Munira. I am a student in Kabul University, Faculty of Fine Arts. So this is Gulamez. I'm now 19 years old, and I am a high school graduate this year. Okay. This is Maria.

Actually, I was studying business administration in one of private universities. You know my name, and I am 18 years old. Actually, I graduated from high school in 2021, at the end of March. Congratulations. Thank you. Can you tell me a little bit about what school was like for you? at the end of March. Congratulations. Thank you. Can you tell me a little bit about what school was like for you? I was in an international school and I loved this school. And first, when I entered my school, it was like heaven, actually. It has a projector and also a computer lab, a physics lab, a chemistry lab.

We have teachers and classmates that we are so kind to each other. We learned what the environment is and also we learned how much we should use from energy, how to keep the water safe, how to prevent from air pollution, and these things. These are so interesting for me. My favorite subjects, actually I love all of them, but my favorite one is science subjects. Yeah. I was really loved to be in the biology class and I was so happy about it. My school was, it was like the teachers were like my family. We had male teachers who taught us and like we were so much free and we had so much fun. Did you have a dream job? Like, did you have something that you imagined yourself

doing after graduating? I want to be a researcher in physics. So I wanted to be a scientist. HR HR manager or finance manager, maybe CEO of an organization. And to initiate the first recycling company in Afghanistan. And I knew that this idea would rock. I really want to be like Vincent Van Gogh, I think. Yeah, I just want to be like a great artist. And my name will be in the history books. I definitely want to be a journalist. Computer engineering.

I'm going to be perfect at mathematics. Yeah, I really like history. I want to be a doctor, especially a cancer researcher. I want to be a politician in the future. Some people say I have a leadership personality. I even thought that I will take a job and I will share my salary with my family. Also, I will buy many things for myself.

But everything becomes so bad. And I'm so sad about that. But what to say? I don't know what to say. It happened. It was a bad dream that happened. So take me to the time that the Taliban was advancing in the country and approached Kabul. Do you remember those days and those moments, what you were feeling?

Yeah, I clearly remember that day. Yes, I cannot forget. I remember that day. It was, I think it was 15 August in 2021. It was, I think it was 15th of August in 2021. It was a Sunday. That day on 15th of August, I went to the bank. And my mother said that, they say the Taliban are here. And I was, what? This is not possible. And she said, cover yourself up.

And that was the first day that I wear burqa. It was from my mother, and she said that she wore that when she was living under the Taliban control. I wore that for the first day, and it was like a chain around me. a chain around me. When they came to Kabul, I was at my office. Our HR called me to come. He told me that you have to go to home.

So I told him why. He told me the situation is not good for you. I had my little brother with me, and we were going on the street. And shops were closed. The streets were crowded. Why? Because the people that went to the job that morning were coming back. All of them.

And then when I was going, they looked at me, because they were all men, and they told me, girl, Taliban is in our town. Go back home. In one day, the streets were fully crowded. Believe me, even I thought it is the doomsday. And it was something so surprising. In one day, Afghanistan will change. It was really a nightmare for us that day.

Maybe for all girls in Afghanistan. After 15th of August, I couldn't sleep for five other days. There was so much coming into my mind. of August, I couldn't sleep for five other days. There were so much coming into my mind. The first that was coming to my mind, like, what will happen to me? And the second thing was, how should I protect my family if war

begins? And then, like, what if I cannot go to school? I was thinking that in this moment, what should we do? Where should we go? What's going to happen? Can I join my class again or not? And what if I cannot start my university? What if I cannot go out of the home?

What will be our future? And how can we continue our life? After, I think, one or two days of this situation, I went to university. We had a group chat, our

classmates, and WhatsApp. So I taught them that we have to go, all girls, to show them that we are not afraid of you. We just want to study. It was around 5 or 5.30 p.m. I went in front of the door of university. The Taliban showed me that, where you want to go?

Hello, girl, where do you want to go? I told them that this time is my class time. I have to go and join this class. They told me that now is not your time. You don't have to come in this time because you're a girl. I said, why do you say like this? I have this right to come and learn and study my studies. They said, you have to go now. And they show me their guns. Okay. Then I really was a fear and I left there. So after that, I left my university.

Can you tell me why you went back? Did you go back just to see if your class was still there? Yes. But when I saw my classmates, boys, it was really painful to see that boys, your classmates all can go to join the class, but because you are a girl, you don't have the permission to go and join the class. It was really painful for me. I lost everything, every hopes, every dreams that I had I lost my all hopes and you know when I come to home all

all day I cried for one week or two weeks I'm sorry I'm really sorry I feel really sorry. I feel really emotional. Yeah, it's...

It was really hard. Yeah. I know it is really hard. Someone tell you, you don't have to study, you don't have to work. You should be in home and work daily, homework. And you don't need to have dreams for your future. You just have to get married. You have to give birth, and these things it's really hard the dreams that we had not only me all the girls in afghanistan the dreams that we all had all is

now all is it's like a dream, not real. Your dreams are like a dream. Yes. Okay, now I'm fine. I'm really sorry. I'm good now. You sure?

Yes, yes, I am okay. Okay. I don't really know how to express that day. It's really tough, the feeling of that day. After that, I lost my job. I didn't go to university. In the first days, I was something, I was like a dead body. I didn't move, I didn't eat and I didn't drink. I was just like a dead body. Nobody knows what should they do with me.

knows what should they do with me. So all of my friends and me even was really frightened about going out and now I'm just staying in the house. In the house it was really boring. Actually so boring. I had a very big amount of time like doing nothing. You have to stay all day in the house doing nothing. What does doing nothing mean for you? Like what is doing nothing? Well, nothing, you know, in the house you're just doing the chores, house chores. The works I do a lot is the washing dishes. The thing that I don't like to do is washing the dishes. I wash dishes. It is really hard for me. For example, wash the dishes. Sometimes I cook, sometimes I wash the dishes.

Actually, right now I'm washing the dishes. I'm so sorry. Also, ironing the clothes. It is really hard for me Or cooking, specially cooking Are you cooking more in the house? Or cooking different things? Yes, too much Okay, too much

I try to make some traditional Afghani recipes Like mantu, similar to meat dumplings And are you trying any new recipes? Or anything different in this time? Yes, most of them was desserts. And just cleaning the house, cleaning my bookshelf. When I saw my books, my university chapters, I really lost my hope and I...

I lost my hope. You know, you are not doing the things that you did in the past. You're just thinking that your future is not the same as your past. It's worse than that. So it's hard. I'm just sitting next to a window and watching the outside, the trees. There are big trees, tall trees. I think it's four and five trees.

I'm just watching all the trees all day because... Because? Because when I see them, because when I see them I feel sometimes my memories come in front of me like a movie I watch it's I was sometimes I cry when I remember those days and also these days when my mom and dad was alive, they always wanted for me to be a doctor. And I also want to be, but now there is no future. Can you tell me what happened to your parents? I think they killed by Taliban because my mother was a teacher and always appreciated the girls to study. So let me make sure I understand. Because your mom was a teacher and really advocated for girls to study, that's how she became a target?

Because in Afghanistan, in the village, the girls are married in very small age. And my mother don't want this because they must study. And it's also changed my whole life. Because when my fathers and moms are killed, at first I think that I must study, I must do big things. Because they always want from me. But when they say that schools will not be open, it was so difficult for me. In nights that I can't sleep, I'm just thinking, thinking, overthinking, and my

mind's like blowing. Think, think, think, overthinking, and my mind's like blowing. Then I go to go away from my sister and brother and go a room, I jog. We have a room that is empty, I jog in there. Like in circles, or how do you do that? Yes, like circles I jog. It's good for me to jog in a circle but it's not enough for me. If you just want to know me just think that you're living in a room that's too small and so dark and your mind is not working so good.

I think that always the room is coming small, small, small and pushing me. I feel like that and it's very hard for me. Like suffocating you or coming down on you? Yes, it's like that. I'm just screaming with myself, is there anybody, is there anybody? I think there is no one, and I'm losing my hope, living in darkness more and more.

There is no light, and like that. more there is no light and like that i want to say you something in these days when sometimes i think i must go away from this life you really don't see a life I think dying is more bitter than living. Don't have any soul, just a body. All days are in sleeping, watching the trees, and just again sleeping, watching the trees, and again sleeping. Eat, sleep, eat, sleep, eat, sleep. It's not life. Life is different from this. eat, sleep, eat, sleep. It's not life.

Life is different from this. It is just a life that is passing, passing, passing, this day, another day, this day, another day, like this. One day, like one year. It's been three months from talibah a hundred days a hundred days we i had nothing to do in my own or do something beneficial for myself it was like really depressing so awful i just sometime i thought of, then how you are just using your days. I was really sad, disappointed, but I decided with myself that it's a difficult situation that has come to you, but don't have to give up. After several months, I find something like a new hope.

I really managed to fight against Taliban within me. I know that we don't have to give up on our dreams. So what I did was I went to the bookstore and I grabbed like around 12 books. I was planning to read one book per three days. Those books who can provide us some information about discoveries, innovations, about physics. Big wishes from Charles Deakins. I love this book and I finished it in one day. And I have around six motivational books. Actually, I really, really am addicted to them.

They are from Anthony Robbins, from Robert Kiyosaki. That bookstore was the start of a new thing for me. And I thought that reading books, it would be like a fight. I just enrolled myself in some online courses. I choose French language. Hi, teacher. Good morning. Hi, Nira. Hi. I really scared to go out. So it was a great opportunity for me as I found out it's online courses. So I wasn't worried about anything. And this is beginner French. And this is lesson 12.

We introduced ourselves. The teacher introduced herself. And it was really going great. Excellent. the teacher introduced herself and it was really going great. Excellent, that's well done. Yes. A friend of me told me that, hey, there is a gym. The day we go to that place

and meet the teacher, she taught us Muay Thai. Muay Thai, like boxing? Yes. The first thing when I go to that gym, she teaches how to box from right, left, right, left. After that, right, left, hook. And it was too interesting for me. And why was it interesting? It was like a light in a big dark. One thing that during this time was that I made a schedule for myself to spend 30 minutes every day on doing something new or learning something new. You set a goal for yourself that every day for 30 minutes you would learn something new. Yes, or I should at least try to learn it.

And I did it. These words were in my ears. Right, left, hook, right, left, hook. And at the night when I was asleep, I was repeating that. Right, left, hook, right, left, hook. And at the night when I was asleep, I was repeating that right, left, hook. For example, I learned cup song. Cup song? I'm not sure I'm familiar. You make sounds using a cup. Is this the one that's like, I'm going to embarrass myself, but the one that's like i'm gonna embarrass myself but the one that goes like you're gonna miss me when i'm gone and then she does like the cup you're gonna miss me yes

capstone took me four days of practice and then I started another skill. I learned tie-dye. Tie-dye. I also practiced public speaking. I was improving my listening within this time. I tried to learn some new programs of computer and also improved my painting. When there was nobody in my home, I started to exercise with my pillow. Right, left, hook. Right, left, hook. One thing is like we do dance classes. Dance classes. So we are around eight girls and we gather together in my house. We're dancing hip-hop oh i usually select american

songs and sometimes spanish songs okay despacito has a very good rhythm So how many new skills do you think you've picked up? I mean, it's been quite a while that you haven't been in school. There were many. Right, left, hook. Right, left, hook. And also it continues like this. Whenever I learn a new skill, I go to another one. Right, left, hook. Right, left, hook. When I am walking to the gym, I feel powerful.

I feel right now I have a hobby. I have a target. I have a goal to again try. Right, left, hook. People think that the girls are weak, but I want to show them that girls are not weak, mindly or physically. They are not weak. They can do whatever they want. Right, left, hook. Right, left, hook. Right, left, hook. So if there aren't any other questions, we're going to do a stretch and then we will conclude our lesson. So for today, what I have selected is Giacomo Puccini, O mio babino caro, and that means, oh, my dear daddy in Italian. So you ready? Everyone just adjust your volume if you need to. I'm just going to start playing music now. Okay?

Okay. Okay. Everybody's ready. Okay. Here we go. So breathe in deeply through the nose, out through the mouth, and we roll our neck clockwise and then counterclockwise twice. So breathe in. I'm still scared. I still have so much fear to go to the street. I still manage to sit home as long as possible. When I'm sitting here like alone, sometimes I feel that there's like a hopeless me inside me that tries to give up, that is really tired of this situation, but I still have a deep hope in me and I try to kill the person inside me who is hopeless. So how is everyone doing? Do you have any questions about today's lesson? Any comments? Before we go, we've got six minutes left.

No teacher. No teacher. I don't have any questions. Okay. Thank you, teacher. You're welcome, everyone. You have a good day. Take care. Have a good day. Au revoir. Au revoir. Au revoir. Au revoir. Au revoir. Au revoir. We'll be right back. Hello? Hello, Gulemiz. Hello, how are you? I'm doing well, thank you. So it's been seven months and the Taliban, as you know, is now reopening universities.

And so I just wanted to check in on how you're feeling and whether you're planning on going. Well, to be honest, I'm not planning to go to Afghanistan universities anymore, any of them. And why not? Well, the reason is because what you see in university campus is way different than what we experienced before. So first of all, they banned music. The classes have been separated. And also the students of sculpture making, they can't make sculpture. Girls cannot enter the university without being covered in a hijab.

Also Taliban members are putting their own employees instead of the old teachers. Do you know Quran Sharif, our holy book? Oh, yes. Yes. We will study this and the rules of Islam. And it feels like you are studying in a university that is not teaching students, but they are teaching soldiers. And in painting part, the students are not allowed

to do portraits. It means the face, the humans, and animals. So all they could do is to do a drawing and painting of nature. There are Taliban flags everywhere, everywhere in the university. Everywhere, everywhere in the university. And academic places like universities, they enter with guns. Unfortunately, because the Taliban are there, girls are not feeling safe. It's not normal. So many of the students cannot study in this kind of condition. you told me when we first spoke you told me you wanted to be a great artist like you wanted to be like a vincent van gogh or um to pursue your art dreams do you do you still want to be that uh well I don't know but up to now I'm just

just doing my drawing like I follow uh the drawing my lessons but I don't know if I want to become an artist anymore do you miss painting? Well, yeah, I just miss the colors. I really like colorful things. When I just went to university, I wore colorful clothes. It really gave me energy. Yellow, red, green. They are looking so great in painting or in clothes. But when I just go out, I just wear some black thing

to don't get attention of others or the Taliban. So it's like a little weird for me now. I really miss everything, every past thing. I really miss everything, every past thing. And in university, there was lots of really beautiful paintings. So I really like to just see them and watching the paintings. Are there a couple that you're thinking of? Well, there was a painting from a war that the leader of the war was a woman and there was people just around her and she was standing and in her hand it was a flag of

Afghanistan. It was a really amazing painting. It was really amazing painting. All of those days, I miss all minutes of those days. Like whenever, and the way when I went to university or school, our environment, our teachers, the studies that we had, our classmates, the memories. Every minute, I really miss the seconds and minutes of those days. And right now, do you think you'll get those minutes back? Do you think you'll ever get to return to university the way it was?

No. I don't think so that we can, we can again find those days back. I'm wondering, Gulamiz, if you think back over the past few months have the experiences of the past few months changed you as a person or changed your personality in some way yes actually so the year that just we finished changed me in a way that I never imagined to be changed. Like I think during one year, I've just grown up to five years. And I feel like an old lady now. It's sad.

You know, you said at the beginning of this conversation, your dreams feel like dreams now. And I'm just wondering, right now, are you waiting on those dreams still? Or are you trying to make new dreams? Those dreams were very special for me. The dreams that I had, I lost. But actually, I hope that those days, those dreams become real. I have hope. A person, I'm hopeful, a person. But 99% I'm not hopeful. I'm not

hopeful for those dreams that it will be real. It's like your 99% self is saying to you, your dreams are just dreams. Let them go. And your 1% self is saying, no, my dreams are still my reality. Yes. So there's a fight happening inside of you. Exactly, exactly. Whenever I see someone that lost their hope, so I want to make it hopeful, make the situation for her hopeful.

I want to show them that we can do this. We are not those women that they were 20 years ago. We are the new generation, so we have to stand in front of all these Taliban. But in this situation, it is very hard, but we have to do for our future days. We should try our best to change the situation by studying, by learning so it will be maybe possible and

let's see what will be happen. Do you believe that yourself? I want to believe. But I don't know what will be our future. But we have a little bit hope for our future. A little bit.

We don't have any other way. We have to be strong. We must be strong. This week, the Taliban's education ministry planned to reopen schools to girls in grades 6 through 12 with a revised curriculum and classes divided by gender. But on Wednesday, those plans were abruptly canceled without a scheduled reopening. We'll be right back. Here's what else you need to know today.

On Thursday, President Biden met with world leaders in Brussels in a day of rare and intense global diplomacy. The intent was to unify nations opposed to Russia's invasion of Ukraine. Mr. Biden said Russia should be expelled from the group of 20 major economies, a move that would further isolate Russia's president, Vladimir Putin. Russia was already ejected from the world's seven largest economies, known as the G7, after its annexation of Crimea in 2014. We also will welcome 100,000 Ukrainians to the United States with a focus on reuniting families. Mr. Biden also said that the United States would take in up to 100,000 Ukrainian refugees and donate $1 billion to help European countries with the surge of migrants. More than 3 million Ukrainians have poured into Poland

and other countries, and more than half of Ukraine's children have been displaced. The single most important thing is for us to stay unified and the world continue to focus on what a brute this guy is. And all the innocent people's lives are being lost and ruined. And what's going on. Today's episode was produced by Lindsay Garrison and Stella Tan. With help from Chelsea Daniel.

It was edited by Michael Benoit. Contains original music by Marian Lozano, Dan Powell, and Alicia Baitube, and was engineered by Corey Schruppel. Our theme music is by Jim Brumberg and Ben Landsberg of Wonderly. Special thanks to Thomas Gibbons-Neff, Christina Goldbaum, and Najim Rahim. That's it for The Daily. I'm Sabrina Tavernisi. See you on Monday.