The Daily - The Effort to Punish Women for Having Abortions

Episode Date: August 23, 2022

Even as the anti-abortion movement celebrates victories at the Supreme Court and in many states across the country, there is debate about where to go next.A hard-edge faction is pursuing “abortion abolition,” a move to criminalize abortion from conception, targeting not only the providers but also the women who have the procedure.Guest: Elizabeth Dias, a correspondent covering faith and politics for The New York Times.Background reading: Abortion “abolitionists” are looking to gain followers after the decision to overturn Roe, unsettling mainstream anti-abortion groups.For more information on today’s episode, visit nytimes.com/thedaily. Transcripts of each episode will be made available by the next workday.

From The New York Times, I'm Sabrina Tavernisi. This is The Daily. In the weeks since Roe was overturned, divisions have emerged within the anti-abortion movement over where to go next. Today, my colleague Elizabeth Dias on how an extreme wing of the movement, one that wants to punish women who have abortions, has become increasingly influential in setting the terms of the debate. It's Tuesday, August 23rd. So Elizabeth, you cover religion for The Times, and you've been reporting on the anti-abortion movement

and where it goes now that Roe has fallen. Where and you've been reporting on the anti-abortion movement and where it goes now that Roe has fallen. Where did you start your reporting? I've been covering the anti-abortion movement pretty closely over the last decade. And I think a lot of people think that the anti-abortion movement is somewhat of a monolith, but it's not a monolith. And there's different factions within the movement that want different things and have different amounts of power. The mainstream of the anti-abortion movement has put forward for years what they've called an incremental strategy, which is adding restriction by restriction to start to peel back the right to an abortion. And there's also been a fringe of the movement that's had more extreme positions. And for them, nothing has been

acceptable except the complete end of abortion at conception. And the mainstream has never really had to grapple in a real way with that fringe element before. Because for years, the movement as a whole was really focused on overturning Roe. But now that fight is over and the landscape has completely changed. So in this new post-Roe world, I really wanted to understand what does that tension between the mainstream and the fringe of the anti-abortion movement look like? And is there an opportunity for this hard edge to assert itself in a new way? hard edge to assert itself in a new way. So tell me about this hard edge of the movement, as you called it. What exactly does it want and how is it different from the mainstream? The thing that ties together the anti-abortion movement broadly is the idea that abortion is murder and that it ends a human life. The hard edge of the anti-abortion

movement sort of takes all of this one or ten steps farther. They call themselves abolitionists and they say that if life begins at conception and abortion is murder, then that is how it should be seen in the law. So they want to categorize abortion from conception literally as homicide under the law. So they're essentially saying abortion is the same thing as killing a person. And they're saying they think it should be in the criminal code. Yes. And what's more, they think that women who have the procedure should be prosecuted for abortion. That women should be prosecuted. So actually, like, put on trial, go to jail. Like that?

Yes, like that. And that's what differentiates them from the mainstream of the anti-abortion movement, which for years has made a point of saying that abortion harms not just the fetus, but also the woman who has the procedure. And they don't want to blame the woman for her choice in ending the pregnancy. They've always put the emphasis on the doctor or the provider of the abortion instead of the woman. And they talk about the woman as sort of a second victim of abortion. So the abolitionists reject this second victim idea? Completely, yes. For the abolitionists, they take this idea to its conclusion, right? If abortion is murder, then someone is responsible for that. And they say,

until the woman is actually held accountable for that choice, then they don't believe that, for that choice, then they don't believe that, in their minds, true justice has been achieved. Wow. That's a radical view. It really is. And how widespread is this view in the movement overall? That was exactly my question, because we've known that the fringes existed for a long time, but I started to notice too there were these ways in which I was seeing it crop up more and in more prominent places than I'd seen in the past. For example, last summer, the Southern Baptist Convention met, and that's the largest Protestant denomination in the U.S. I think it's about 14 million members.

And it's a pretty good bellwether of what American evangelicalism thinks and where the broader anti-abortion movement may be going. And at their annual meeting last summer, This is the resolution calling for the abolishing of abortion submitted by scores of pastors from across this Southern Baptist convention. There was a faction within the Southern Baptists that put forward a resolution. What we're saying is what we would want to happen if it were legal to kill us is other people to make it illegal. Abortion must be immediately abolished without exception or compromise. And while it didn't call for the punishment of women, it did have a lot of explicitly abolitionist language. The affirmative has it and the resolution is adopted. And that

passed. This is the hearing of the House Criminal Administration resolution is adopted. And that passed. This is the hearing of the House Criminal Administration of Justice Committee. And then more recently in Louisiana. What criminal laws protect your life from homicide? From the moment of fertilization, those same laws should protect all persons in this state, born and unborn. What this bill does is to specifically amend the crime of homicide to enable the state to charge people, including the pregnant person, the pregnant mother.

There was a bill about abolition specifically and prosecuting women who have abortion. Representative Bacala? Yes. Representative Fontenot? Yes. Representative Garofalo? And yes. It actually made it out of committee. Seven yeas, two nays. Thank you. House Bill 813 will be reported favorably. Meaning the bill actually got debated in the State House, on the House floor. Right. Louisiana will be debating a bill this week that would charge women who have an abortion with homicide. Which was really significant and a change in what the abolitionists were able to do. This bill could ultimately restrict IVF, emergency contraception.

Will there be a murderer's row for those who take the morning after pill? And you might remember back in May, there was a lot of hubbub and media attention about this. It sounds crazy. I know because it is. This is extreme and it's crazy. And I think that's how people should talk about it. Like how did this suddenly happen? We should not be at each other's throats over a bill that is blatantly unconstitutional, makes criminals out of women, would not prevent a single abortion. And as far as I can tell, was only presented to give a couple of misguided people a platform. The bill ran into opposition not only from Democrats, but also from anti-abortion Republicans and the mainstream anti-abortion groups.

Louisiana lawmakers now have scrapped a plan to classify abortion as homicide after strong bipartisan pushback. And the Louisiana bill ultimately failed. But it showed that there is at least some legislative action out there that's willing to go farther than what anti-abortion legislators had previously ever considered. So it sounds like what you were finding was that the abolitionists did have some sway, both in this big bellwether for American evangelicals, but also you were seeing it in actual lawmaking, like in Louisiana.

Yes, yes, they did. And even if the abolitionists failed in Louisiana and didn't get their bill through that time, what really matters here is how they're shaping the culture, the culture of the movement, the culture of the country. And culture is often what's upstream from politics. It's these things that are happening out in the country that kind of gain momentum. And so I thought, okay, something might be changing here. And this contingent that's been at this extreme edge is really pushing its way towards the center. And so I wanted to better understand what did that mean? What does that look like? And who was behind it? And who is behind it? Well, I started looking at who was behind that bill and similar bills like it in other states across the country. And one of the guys who was in

Louisiana, I just decided to give him a call. His name is Jeff Durbin. He runs a group out of the greater Phoenix area called End Abortion Now. He's the pastor of a church called Apologia Church. It's a congregation of about 700 people. And he also runs a production studio with a lot of online abolitionist programming. And he has around, I think, 300,000 followers on YouTube. And his studio sort of operates as this headquarters for a lot of abolitionist work. And so I decided to go out there to Phoenix with a photographer to visit and hear what he's all about. So we go in. It's a little messy. And we meet Jeff. I just have my recorder on because then I can always. And then we sat down for an interview. But like, can you take me back

to how this really started for you? Oh, gosh. Well, I wasn't raised in a Christian home. So what do we need to know about Jeff? Jeff is 44. He has five children and three grandchildren. My whole life, like martial arts was my thing and competition in martial arts. Before he was a pastor and activist online, he was actually a national karate champion in his teenage years. Not many years later, that's when I got into my drug addiction. And life sort of collapsed. I spent all my money, and they were turning my electric off. And he tells the story of how he devoted his life to Jesus after he nearly overdosed on

ecstasy. And so I asked God to save my life and don't kill me. I knew what I was doing. I knew what was wrong, why I was doing it. And then everything just shut off. Like, I just came out of it. I turned my life over to Christ. So then what happened?

After that? Yeah. My life began to transform. And then out of that, he decided to start Apologia Church. Okay, so this is a guy who was really involved in the martial arts scene and then overcame a drug addiction and came to Christianity relatively recently. I guess I'm feeling slightly baffled about why he ends up in the anti-abortion movement. I guess I'm feeling slightly baffled about why he ends up in the anti-abortion movement.

Well, the way he talks about it is really that he's motivated by a belief that he's obeying God. It's a command of God to rescue those who are being led to the slaughter. That's in Proverbs chapter 24. So that's not a request or a suggestion. It's rescue them. He sees this as a biblical call and believes that he and his followers and others in the abolition movement are really following a command of God. And how does he go from being a pastor in Arizona to pushing for a law through the legislature in Louisiana? Well, he started in a more traditional way of protesting abortion. He would go to Planned Parenthood clinics and take church members with him and try to stop women from going in to get the procedure. But he got to a point where that really wasn't enough. We recognize that we're sort of working at the end of a river, at the end of a stream with buckets, trying to empty it out.

The real problem is upstream. And upstream is a system that allows for mothers and fathers to deliver their child to be killed. He talks about you can only do so much when you're the guys standing on the street with the megaphones. And so he started working with other like-minded abolitionists in other parts of the country to figure out what kind of legislation could they introduce to really start to legislate what they wanted to see in the culture? So you have sort of the establishment and the industry that's... The abolitionists, they have this way of talking about the mainstream of the anti-abortion movement as the, quote, pro-life establishment or industry.

The interesting thing is that many of these legislators that we're talking to are professing pro-life establishment or industry. The interesting thing is that many of these legislators that we're talking to are professing pro-life. So they'll say, I believe that all human life begins at conception, and I believe that all human life is sacred and needs to be protected. But they will actually fight in the legislature inconsistently with that profession. inconsistently with that profession. And it's interesting because he is mostly going to states that are already quite anti-abortion, where there's a strong presence of the more mainstream anti-abortion movement. So they'll say things like, a 15-week abortion ban is acceptable.

Right? Like, we'll settle with that. Well, their profession is that it's all human from conception and all he was serving protection so what they're saying there is they're saying well now you can kill this class of humans but not this class of humans it's inconsistent so the abolitionists like Jeff are looking at the mainstream of the anti-abortion movement and say, well, they're actually in their minds sort of living a contradiction. As a matter of fact, the legislators, because of the pro-life establishment, specifically

went on record and said that the woman is never guilty for killing her child in the womb. Since church history, women have killed their children via pills and potions and things like that. And legislators are going to have to address the issue of what do we do with a woman who actually kills her own child in the womb? Is she actually guilty? He's saying that the mainstream of the anti-abortion movement is hypocritical because it says that it recognizes abortion as the taking of a life, but it also is not willing to punish the women who, in his mind, carry out that act. And while the Louisiana bill failed, Jeff and the abolitionists like him

still see this as a beginning for everything that they're trying to accomplish. So remind me how many legislatures you've been able to introduce the bill and then are working in to try to introduce the bill? So we have, we've done Arizona, Texas, Colorado, South Carolina, Pennsylvania. Jeff has supported similar bills in I think about a dozen states.

And each state has slightly different consequences for homicide, depending on their own laws and rules. But in some states, that would make women who have an abortion eligible for the death penalty. Wow. So he's advocating for laws that would have this really brutal consequence for women. Right. Did you ask him about that? I did. I did ask him about that. So why do you think that women deserve to die for having had an abortion? Like, why is that the penalty? Well, first thing I'd say to that, I think we all deserve to die for our sin. Okay. The Bible says wages of sin is death,

and so all of us are guilty. And he gave a bit of a long sort of winding answer to the question. So when someone says, do you believe that if someone murders another human being, they deserve capital punishment. My answer is, well, that's what the Bible teaches. So yes, I agree with that. However, I do not trust the American justice system to actually deal out the death penalty sort of wholesale. So that's an area that needs to also be corrected in our nation. He kept dodging the most essential points. he kept dodging the most essential points. Abolitionists like Jeff know that this is the most controversial point of what they're trying to do. But the idea would be to reform the system

so it could deal it out in a just way. Right. So reform the system so that you know that the person is truly guilty. And I think that's the right way to do it. And I would want that. And what I ultimately came away with was a sense of just how dedicated the abolitionists are to getting what they want. And it's clear from what Jeff says and the legislation that he's backed that what he wants is women who have the procedure to be prosecuted for homicide under their state laws. Even if that means potentially facing the death penalty. Right. Even if that means paying the ultimate price. Well, I really appreciate you spending all this time with us. I know you've got a lot going on.

Yeah. Thank you for saying all that. You must be worn out. And it's not just Jeff who thinks this or the broader abortion abolition movement that thinks this. It's people in his congregation, men and women, including a woman I met named Christine. We'll be right back. That's Christine. Did you meet Christine? Very briefly on the way in.

She's our assistant. I gave you her number. Come on in. Oh, sorry. So, Elizabeth, tell me about the member of Jeff's church you met, Christine. So, Christine, what's your story? My story? My gosh, my story. About what? I had a job. Yeah.

I never knew so many things in my life. Christine grew up Catholic. I was having yoga. I was in New Age. Spent a lot of time, as she talked about it to me, teaching yoga and in other sort of New Age ideas. So she says she didn't really become a Christian believer and get saved until she gave that up. How long have you been at Apologia? A little over two years. Christine is now an assistant working at the church, but she first found it actually online a couple of years ago at the start of the pandemic. I had been watching it on YouTube.

It was just like no churches were open and I really hadn't found a church. So I was watching all these different ones. She was looking around on YouTube at different videos and came across one of Jeff's. I saw the one where they just brought a mother who saved a baby. And this was at the Polygama Church. and I just think that was what it was. And so I just kept watching him and following and just getting more teaching. She heard him talk about a woman who chose not to have an abortion. And it really resonated with her. She's also in Arizona, and she goes to check out the church. And so when she goes to Apologia Church,

she realizes that they have this programming to protest abortion clinics around the valley. And she just felt it was something she really had to do. Had you done anything like that before? It was the first time. So what made you do that? Because of what I had done. Because I had an abortion. I'm listening to her talk and she starts to tell me about how she had an abortion. And what does she say? Well, I asked her, you know, when this was and what the circumstances were. And she said she didn't want to talk about that. She just said simply, I was younger.

She's 63 now. And she said, you know, the circumstances about it, that wasn't what was important to her. What was important was that she had made this decision to do it. What upsets me is most when the pro-life industry says that women are victims and women also are saying they're victims and the men, it's just, it's the word. She was pretty upset at what she called the pro-life industry that they have this narrative that women are victims i i'm not a victim like who who is it who has told a female i'm a victim i'm not a victim. I was in my sin. Call it what it is to be very true about it. I was a sinner.

You know, on sexual immorality, you know, sex outside of marriage, murder. Murder? Murder. Well, if you're feeling a baby. Oh, okay. Then murder. She really wanted me to know that she didn't see herself as a victim. She saw herself as a sinner. She saw that she was at fault for making this decision.

It haunts you. It changes you. I wish I could go back, but I can't. But I will do what I can't. But I will do it now. Just, yeah. And I, you know, yeah. It's almost like... I'm so sorry.

I'm so sorry. It's something that will never ever leave you. And you can't take, you can't, while in those moments you think, I can't do this, I can't do this, you don't have a baby, and you choose death. You choose to murder.

You don't think of it as murder, but it's so my calling it is. It's a life, and you just push it under the ground, and it will never leave you, and it will come out. It was clear that she regretted having had an abortion, and that this was a really pivotal moment in her life story. For me, I'll only speak for me, it was a baby. And that's a part of me that I can never get back, that I chose to kill. So that's why I'm honest. I did wrong. That was... So, Elizabeth, I'm trying to understand Christine.

I keep hearing her say she's not a victim. And it's almost like she sees the suggestion that she is as offensive. Like, it robs her of agency. And she wanted you to know that she was the one who was making the decision, that she was the one who was in control. Yes. And she really believes what her church teaches, that she had an abortion, and there should be a punishment for that. Well, is it, what do you make of the punishment for a woman? And what punishment should the state give out? You're asking me?

Yeah. Well, how do I feel about it? I feel it is extremely just and it's biblical. And it's fair. It's an equal measure. I took a life I should give my life if they were to come back and I would right now absolutely I'm a sinner I did and if that was my punishment I would take it if that was my punishment

I would take it and the reason she said she was sharing her story was she really wanted other women to know how she understood her abortion. This is about the truth of God, and this is about the truth of what I am. I am a sinner. I did commit that. I'm not a victim, and I am deeply star. I did commit that. I'm not a victim and I am deeply repentant. That's what I want women to come away with. But thank you for asking. I really do appreciate that. Could you guys have anything to eat? Some nuts? I've got raw unsalted nuts.

Not good. Thank you. I've got this water. I appreciate it. You know, this whole journey of reporting on this abolitionist movement, I started at this high level, right, about laws and resolutions. And then I go one step down and it's the men who are leading it and what they want. But then there I was at the very end, just left with her.

And she's the one who has to bear it. So, Elizabeth, I'm thinking about this pretty intense experience you had reporting in Arizona with Jeff and Christine. And, you know, their views seem to me to be pretty extreme. And their views that lead women to some pretty radical conclusions. But I guess what I'm wondering is, what did it tell you about where the broader movement might be headed? You know, one thing this reporting really made clear to me is that the movement as a whole is already moving much farther to the right than it has

before. And sure, the idea of prosecuting women who have abortions is still really a red line that almost no one has been willing to cross. But also, let's look at the landscape. Since Roe was overturned, several states have banned abortion, with no exceptions for rape or incest. We're now seeing all kinds of legislation being introduced in multiple states that would do things like criminalize abortion as a felony and send providers to prison for decades, even in some cases. And there are also these new laws being discussed, new measures being proposed that would treat a fetus like a person under the law. For example, in Georgia, a woman can now claim an embryo at six weeks as it depended on her tax returns. So it looks to me like these lines of what is extreme and what is mainstream are really blurring. These are ideas that just a couple of years ago

would have been squarely outside the mainstream, what the mainstream thought was possible. And the mainstream of the anti-abortion movement wasn't even talking about this really before. And those ideas are in a large part driven by an explicitly religious movement. Yes, and the abolitionists believe they're fighting this holy Christian mission. I mean, they have a very spiritual purpose for this, and they believe they're answerable to God, which means they're not holding back. And they see this as a really important opening for how they can change the culture of the anti-abortion movement. In other words, we're in uncharted waters right now. In other words, we're in uncharted waters right now.

That's right. The future of the anti-abortion movement is really about this one essential question that the abolitionists have put their finger on, which is, if you really believe a fetus is a person, how far are you willing to go to protect it? How do you legislate around that? How do you apply that belief, even to others who don't share it? Elizabeth, thank you. Thanks, Sabrina. We'll be right back. Here's what else you should know today.

On Monday, Russian officials blamed Ukraine for organizing the killing of Daria Dugina, the daughter of a prominent Russian supporter of the invasion of Ukraine. Dugina was killed in a car bombing outside of Moscow over the weekend. The Ukrainian government denied the charge. Dugina's death has become a flashpoint in the six-month-old war. Russia's decision to blame Ukraine could give it a new rationale for attacking civilians. And Dr. Anthony Fauci, the nation's leading authority on infectious disease and the public face of the government's response to COVID-19, said he would retire by the end of the year.

Fauci has led the National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases for 38 years across seven U.S. presidencies and a series of major health crises ranging from AIDS to Ebola. Today's episode was produced by Stella Tan and Ricky Nowetzki with help from Luke Vanderplug. It was edited by Mark George with help from Patricia Willans and fact-checked by Susan Lee. It contains original music by Dan Powell, Rowan Nemistow, and Marian Lozano, and was engineered by Marian Lozano.

Our theme music is by Jim Brumberg and Ben Landsberg of Wonderly. That's it for The Daily. I'm Sabrina Tavernisi. See you tomorrow.