The Daily - The Fear Facer: An Update

Episode Date: October 14, 2022

In 2019, Julia Longoria, then a Daily producer, traveled to Nashville to speak with Ella Maners and her mother, Katie Maners.Ella, 8 going on 9, was terrified of tornadoes and getting sick. So she did something that was even scarier than her fears: confront them at Fear Facers camp.We revisit her story and catch up with Ella, now 12 and in the fifth grade, who has since returned to the camp.Background reading: Three years ago, Ella spent a week at Fear Facers Summer Camp, a day camp in Florida that helps children learn to deal with obsessive-compulsive and anxiety disorders.For more information on today’s episode, visit nytimes.com/thedaily. Transcripts of each episode will be made available by the next workday.

Oh, what's that? That? My dream catcher? Oh, it's called a dream catcher. So I guess it, like, catches bad dreams, but hasn't been working so good. Oh, yeah? Have you had some bad dreams lately? Yes, I've had some last night. Really? What did you dream about last night? I don't even really remember.

Yeah, I always forget my dreams, too. I try sometimes to write them down so I can remember them. Do you ever do that? No, ma'am. I'm still working on spelling, so. Gotcha. That makes sense. Okay, that would probably be really hard to say Marco Barbaro. I don't know. Is that his last name? Marco Barbaro? Barbaro. Yeah. Oh. Yeah. So why don't we try it? Okay. For the New York Times, I'm Ella. This is The Daily. Today, we are talking about fears and how to face them.

It's Friday, October 14th. I did be really close to the mic. Hello? Hello. Michael? Hi, is this Ella? Um, that was my mom talking, but now it's me. Is? Michael? Hi, is this Ella? Um, that was my mom talking, but now it's me. Is that Michael?

Hi, Ella. Hi. Are you wearing headphones? How does it feel? Great. All right, cool. And then... Back in 2019, my colleague Julia Longoria traveled to Nashville, Tennessee and made one of our favorite episodes, which we're re-airing today, a conversation with Ella Mainers and her mother, Katie Mainers.

It feels okay? Yes, sir. Are you calling me sir? Yes, sir. You don't have to do that. I appreciate it, but... Got it. How are you hearing me through this microphone? I'm not actually hearing you through the microphone.

I'm hearing you through the phone, but then eventually a lot of people are going to hear you through the microphone. I don't get it. Yeah, I don't get it either. I thought that we might begin with just a couple of really basic questions. How old are you? I just turned nine. And since you're in, Ella, your bedroom, I wonder if you could describe a little bit of your surroundings, just a couple

of things in that room that mean something to you. Everybody inhmm. My bunk bed and my stuffed animals. Can you tell me about those stuffed animals? I got a unicorn named Uni, and Bun Bun is my favorite, which is a bunny. She has OCD. Bun Bun has obsessive-compulsive disorder. Yes, sir. I mean, yes. So, Ella, I know that you have been through a lot this last year.

So I wanted to talk about that with you and with your mom. Does that sound fine? Yeah. Let me start by asking you about your biggest fears. What are you most scared of? are you most scared of? Throwing up, tornadoes, fires, windex, monsters, and going upstairs by myself or in the garage. And among those, because that's a fair number of fears, what would you say are the biggest,

the things that you're most afraid of? Getting sick. And like tornadoes. We have like tornado watches here. Hazard tornado. And the worst thing is our tornado siren is right beside our house. This dangerous storm will be near. Nashville around 7.40 p.m. Central Standard Time.

Take cover now. So you can hear it, like, really clear. It's loud. It's really loud. Oh, my God. It's a twister. It's a twister. It's like the apocalypse is coming. That's God. It's a twister. It's a twister. The apocalypse is coming. That's just kind of where her mind goes.

But we have never had a tornado actually hit our house. That's good. Yes, sir. Yes. Obsessive compulsive disorder is not what I imagined it to be. Yes, sir tornadoes. Ella's compulsion is actually avoidance. She will do anything to avoid the situations where vomit, tornado could happen. OCD is just something that telling you that scary things are going to happen to you. It took what Ella had a fear of.

Vomit, tornadoes. And just made that fear just enormous. When I found out that I had OCD, I feel like it changed my life a lot. How so? It was harder for me to do a lot of different stuff that other people can do, and it was just harder, I feel like. The first time, it was just your typical school day. school day. And I get to the carpool line at school and I drive up and instead of Ella walking to our car, her teacher does. And I kind of rolled down the window a little confused going like, okay, where's Ella? And that's when she told me, Ella won't leave the classroom.

And of course I'm going, what do you mean she won't leave the classroom? And when I got to her classroom, she was literally... I just remember I was like screaming on the floor. If I moved, I was going to get sick. Knees up to her chest, arms wrapped around her. She was tucked into a little ball. And she was just laying on the floor crying. And she was able to say like, if I move, I think I'm going to get sick. Or if I stand

up, I'm going to get sick. There was not one thing I could say, you're going to be okay. You know, you're not going to get sick. That helped her. She was just stuck. Her brain was stuck on this one thought of, I'm going to get sick. Ella was basically paralyzed with her fear. And I ended up just having to literally pull her off the floor and carry her to my car. I am going to get sick. We didn't know that the things we were doing, the reassuring her, you know, you're not going to get sick, those were really amplifying her OCD. And the next thing that really pushed us was the day we got the phone call from the principal

that told me there had been just a routine tornado drill at school. Ella, can you tell me what happened that day? Well, it was cold outside, so I was wearing two jackets. The tornado drill was at the end of the day. tornado drill was at the end of the day. Hearing the siren really just kind of sent Ella into that state of all-consuming fear. I was telling myself, like, no, I'm not going to get sick. So you kind of tried to talk yourself out of it.

Yeah. And I didn't take the two coats off. And it was like really hot inside. And it was really thick coats. And we had to duck our heads down, even though it was just fake. We were, so I just make sure we knew what to do. And what did you do? I went to the bathroom with everybody. We ducked our head in and like then and then I threw up.

I mean, when they told me, it was like, oh my gosh, like poor child. How much worse could it get? It had to be a tornado and it had to be vomit. It was her two worst fears in one. And what did that experience do to your fears? It just made them worse, really. These fears just kind of consumed her. They kind of consumed her life. There have been some boys that bullied me before. Can you tell me what kinds of things they would say? Somebody has said to me, like, you're not that good as like other people because you have OCD. That's horrible.

I started crying. You have OCD. That's horrible. I started crying. When you start to see her not be able to do the things that she's been able to do is when as a parent you go, okay, we've really got to get on this. Yeah. I realized that we had to do it the hard way. What do you mean the hard way?

I don't really know. Um. What's up? And I second, can do you want to talk by yourself so I can have a break? Do you want a break, Ella? Please. Yeah, Ella, if you want a break, I would completely understand.

Take a break. Right now? Yeah, go for it. Okay. Um, we'll be right back. Don't leave. Uh, tell them you're ready. Uh, ready? Yep. Action. Okay. So, once you determine that you have to do something,

what do you do? My husband and I, we just started researching. I did so much reading on OCD, the best treatment options for it. Ella just said too much and came to the conclusion that Ella needed some intense therapy. So that's how we came across the Fear Facers camp that they put on two times a summer. Fear Facers. It is for children that have obsessive compulsive disorder or other anxiety disorders. It is put on by the University of Florida and sorry Ella's making funny faces. So Ella just based on the name it sounds like this is a place where kids go to confront their fears. Yes. Okay mom stop talking It's my time to shine Sorry, Ella, it's your time to shine

Yeah Go for it Burn So, Ella, tell me about what you first thought When you heard about this camp of fear-facers I was excited but nervous at the same time And I was not ready for the drive The drive

Yes The long drive? Yes. Do you remember what you played on the radio? Um, when I'm sad, I love hearing emotional songs, because I don't know why. Like, Colm Scott, you're the reason. And you are the reason

That I'm still breathing I'll climb every mountain And swim every ocean Just to be with you And fix what I've broken So we just arrived from Nashville to Gainesville. As you arrive, can you describe what it looks like? There's tons of parking lots, and it wasn't a spend-the-night camp.

You should just look it up. Okay, let me do that. night camp. You should just look it up. Okay. Let me do that. Fear, facers, camp. I'm looking for the photos. There aren't really a lot of photos.

There really are almost no photos. I could tell that was like a really nice place. It kind of looked like a church. So what was the first thing that you did when you got there? I got to meet my counselors and I named my OCD O.C. O.C.? And why did you do that? I just like the name.

If you give that OCD a name, it helps them identify, like, okay, is this me thinking or me being scared? Or is this OCD, or in Ella's case, is this OC being scared? And tell me about OC. There's this Osi being scared. And tell me about Osi. I always just picture him being like he's a bubble inside my brain. He's a little bubble blue. It's blue because blue is my favorite color.

I don't know why. So why did you give Osi your favorite color, you think? I don't know. Is it kind of like Osi's a little bit a part of you, like it's always going to be there? Yeah, it would always be there. He's always going to be there? Yeah I think it would always be there. Um she or he's just sneaky. Sneaky? Yeah. Sneaky how? You don't know what he's gonna do. He tells me or she tells me like I am gonna get sick. I am gonna get sick. I am going to get sick. I am going to get sick. I am going to get sick. And I say, I'm not going to get sick.

I'm not going to get sick. And that makes it worse. I am going to get sick. I'm not going to get sick. I am going to get sick. I'm not going to get sick. I am going to get sick. I am going to get sick.

I am going to get sick. I am going to get sick. So they told me to talk to OC like different. I am going to get sick. I am going to get sick. I am going to get sick. To help OC get defeated, you can like say, yes, I am going to get sick. Yes, I am going to get sick. Yes, I am going to like, yes, I am going to get sick. I am going to get sick. I don't know how, but it defeats OC because it's like uh oh

no fair just so Ella's OCD could have a friend I named my OCD Ocinda I discovered like okay I definitely have a little OCD in me. I check my stove at night. We have a gas stove and I always check and I can't just look at it. I have to feel that the little lines are facing off. Because I want the pleasure of saying I told you so.

Osinda, in my mind, is just like Violet, the grandmother character. I think Granny's right. Can somebody write that down? From Downton Abbey, who always has to have things a certain way, and is very particular and picky, just nagging. That's what Osinda would be. Ella, do you remember we were sitting on the basketball court and we sat and we listed all of your fears? Zero, I'm not really scared of it

Ten, biggest fear ever Vomit Throwing up Tornadoes Windex Fires Others And so, Ella, what did the counselors do after you told them about your fears?

We... We did them. You did them? We kind of just did them. Are we... What do you mean? We did, like, exposures to them. Exposing yourself to the thing that you're most afraid of. Yes, sir. Yes.

So at one point during the week, during Ella's morning, they tackle tornadoes. They would bring me into a room that nobody was in, me and my mom and my counselors. They would bring their iPad in there to play something on it. Really strong winds. Yes, sir. We're probably close to something here. The first thing that I watched was not too hard, and then I went up to harder lines.

The dog was running kind of to the tornado. I was like, no, doggies stay here. They didn't take the, mom, I was like, I would just take the dog too. Then after they just took me to the bathroom and played the tornado siren. We redid what happened when I got sick, and we put two jackets on me. Wow.

Everybody's like, why two coats? Well, they really did try to create the situation at school to really kind of put her back in that moment when she was so fearful at school and have her see, you can do this. I said, oh no. The siren is getting louder and louder. OC started talking to me. There's going to be a tornado. There's gonna be a tornado. And I was like, yes there is, yes there is, yes there is,

yes there is, yes there is. Oh. No fair. We kept doing it over and over again, and then it just kept getting easier and easier. And then the exposures for the day were like over. So after the first exposure, we moved to vomit.

And of course, as soon as we said that, Ella's eyes got really big. It was like, wait, we're already going to do vomit? That's one of the really hard ones. And so they explained that, you know, we're going to watch a video. And of course, her first response is like, yeah, I don't know about that. I rate it at a 10. Do you mind if I play it? Yeah, I don't care really. Yeah, I don't care really. They showed me the Pitch Perfect, which started with a tin. I knew something was going to happen, but I didn't know when. Whenever I watch Pitch Perfect, my heart races.

Right now? Yeah. Really? Yeah. Really? Yeah. I'm sorry. Do you want to stop doing this? I want to keep going. Okay.

Okay. It's like I saw the sign and I opened up my eyes. I saw the flip. There's just vomit shooting out of her mouth. So bad. It's like... But like kids, it's worth it. O.C. was like, you are going to get sick. You are going to get sick.

So I was like, yes I am, yes I am, yes I am, yes I am. And O.C. was like... okay, fine, I give up. You realize that it wasn't as scary as you thought. The more times I watched it, it helped better. After we left the room with the iPads, that is when we went to the kitchen area and started the exposure of pretending to vomit up water. They took me to the sink and we got water in our mouth and then we spit it out, but it would be kind of like we threw it up. So you kind of pretended to be throwing up? Yes. It was easy because, I don't know, it was just pretty easy on that.

And then we moved on to the bathroom, and that's where everything got trickier. That definitely was hard. That definitely was hard. So these counselors grab a handful of the really gross jelly beans that you play like bean boozle with. So they taste like vomit or grass clippings or whatnot. And I mean, God bless these counselors because they're the ones that ate the jelly beans, not Ella. Ella just had to watch. And they chewed them up and then pretended to vomit in the toilet. One girl almost actually kind of got sick, kind of was gagging. I don't know if it was the taste of the jelly beans or if it was just gag reflex, but it really sounded like she got sick. And that's when Ella just really lost it.

They were saying, you know, okay, Ella, why don't you look to see if she got sick? And she did not want to look to see if she got sick. They would ask me my rating. I said 10. I refused to, like, look in the toilet. I said, 10. I refused to, like, look in the toilet. And I was crying and my mom was crying. I stepped out of the stall because I think my emotion was upsetting Ella more. She said, this is too much. Like, why?

So, Katie, it sounds like you're starting to question this whole exposure thing. Yes, I had doubts. Did we make the right decision doing this? Is this really going to help her? And I remember being outside and just going like, is this how it's supposed to be? And they were like, yes, you know, she's, this is hard. This is going to be a hard moment for her, but she you know, she's, this is hard. This is going to be a hard moment for her, but she's going to have a moment in there where she realizes she can do this. I was like, why did I come to camp? This is not fun. My mom was like, she's not going to want to come back tomorrow. But they wouldn't let me like leave, leave, so I had to, like, do it. So they took a picture with my mom's phone.

So they said, okay, how about we take a picture, and you look at the picture. Picture of? Inside, I mean, you know, the toilet. And Ella wouldn't look at it at first and covered her eyes, and they were like, you know, Ella, let's try to look at it. I looked at the picture inside the toilet. They said she just kind of just stared at it, like made herself look at it, and she just eventually took two steps and...

I looked inside the toilet actually without the picture. They only made me look at it once. I was so scared, but it's like worth it. I was outside the bathroom talking with one of the doctors, and we heard them, like, cheering inside, just Ellis Kelters, like, just going crazy in the bathroom. And so we literally made, like, a tunnel for her to go through coming out of the bathroom. And we all, like, cheered and high-fived her. And the first thing she did was come over to me and give me a big hug. I mean, of course, she's got, over to me and give me a big hug. I mean, of course, she's got, you know, like kind of red eyes. And, you know, I was like, you know, what was it like? And she's like, I was proud of myself. Like, I felt brave.

And I hadn't heard her say that in a really long time. I felt really good after I did all these exposures. I felt good. I felt happy. I felt brave. I felt everything, really. I've always said, you know, we will sit with you in the bottom of the pit, you know, and we'll just get through it. We'll get through it together. And at some point, everybody's going to be at the bottom of the pit. You know, no one's life is perfect. And I think the younger they are and can start learning to

be there and work themselves back up, I mean, that's an advantage. Oh, sorry. It's like hard months. So worth it. I mean, gosh, she's going to be an amazing adult. Ella, there are a lot of kids who have OCD. There are also a lot of kids who have major fears, even if they don't have OCD. But most kids don't go to a special camp to face their fears. But most kids don't go to a special camp to face their fears. So what would you say to a kid like that? What kind of advice would you give him or her? First I would say hi. And then I would be like, just do kind of what I do.

Like, do like strategies what I do. Or like say, yes I am, yes I am. Kind of like that. And hopefully it will get better. Do you think it took away those fears? No, sir, no. If you have these fears now, how are they different? They aren't as scary. Elle, I've really enjoyed getting to know you in this conversation very much.

And you're very brave. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. And thank you, Katie. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. And thank you, Katie. Thank you. Vomit and tornadoes. Just talk right into the mic.

Vomit and tornadoes. One more time. Vomit and tornadoes. Sing it again. Vomit and tornadoes. Since we first spoke to Ella, she's returned to the Fear Facers camp for a second time. She's now 12 and in fifth grade. This week, she told us a new story about how she continues to face her fears.

So this actually happened recently. My family and I were going somewhere from Nashville to Mississippi to visit my grandparents, and we were in the car just leaving. And my parents' phone alarm tornado thing started going off. We were right by a gas station. So I was kind of panicking. I started saying, oh my gosh, I don't know what to do. And we went into the gas station. My heart was beating very fast. And we stayed in a bathroom with at least 10 other people and like in the back of the store. And my dad asked me to come outside to see the weather. And was like okay and then we could

see the like a little kind of funnel shape in the clouds and it started rotating and I went back inside and I started panicking a little but then I calmed down did some deep breathing and I just said in my head I'm going to be okay everything's going to be okay and then we just left like 20 minutes later and we were fine my fears My fears are still there and give me anxiety, but I have been doing more strategies and going to therapy and doing a lot of things that will help me overcome them. They don't control me, but I can control them. We'll be right back. Here's what else you need to know today. Mr. Chairman, our committee now has sufficient information to answer many of the critical questions posed by Congress at the outset. But a key task remains.

We must seek the testimony under oath of January 6th central player. During the latest hearing of the House January 6th committee, members voted unanimously to subpoena former President Trump to force him to answer questions about his role in fomenting the deadly attack on the Capitol. If there's no further debate, the question is on agreeing to the resolution. Those in favor will say aye. Aye. Those opposed, no.

In the opinion of the chair, the ayes have it. The vote is a major escalation in the committee's approach to collecting evidence, but it may ultimately be symbolic. evidence, but it may ultimately be symbolic. Trump is widely expected to defy such a subpoena or use the court system to block it. And a jury has recommended that Nicholas Cruz, the gunman found guilty of killing 17 people at the Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School in Parkland, Florida, should be sentenced to life without the possibility of parole, opting not to give him the death penalty. Relatives of the victims appeared surprised and angry

as they learned that Cruz's life had been spared following a grueling and emotional trial that lasted for months. Afterward, at least one juror who voted against the death penalty said he did so because he believed that Cruz was mentally ill. Today's episode was produced by Julia Longoria and edited by Wendy Dorr, with help from Lindsay Garrison, Jasmine Aguilera, Mark George, Anita Botticeau, MJ Davis-Lynn, and Stella Tan. It contains original music by Alexander Overington, Marion Lozano, and Alicia Baitu,

and was engineered by Alexander Overington and Brad Fisher. Our theme music is by Jim Brunberg and Ben Lansford of Wonderly. That's it for The Daily. I'm Michael Barbaro. See you on Monday.