The Daily - The First Women to Report Jeffrey Epstein

Episode Date: August 26, 2019

This episode contains descriptions of sexual assault. Nearly a decade before any police investigation into Jeffrey Epstein’s predatory actions toward young girls, two sisters came forward to say they had been lured in and abused by the financier and his companion, Ghislaine Maxwell. Now that he’s dead, the sisters are wrestling with what might have happened if someone had listened.Guests: Mike Baker, a national correspondent for The New York Times, spoke with Maria and Annie Farmer, and shared their story with Natalie Kitroeff, a business reporter for The Times. For more information on today’s episode, visit nytimes.com/thedaily. Background coverage: The Farmer sisters spoke to The Times about their accusations, offering a look at how Mr. Epstein, who killed himself in prison this month, managed to avoid significant scrutiny for years.

From The New York Times, I'm Michael Barbaro. This is The Daily. Today. Nearly a decade before Jeffrey Epstein was arrested for predatory activities with dozens of young girls, two sisters came forward with their story of being lured in by Epstein and his girlfriend, Ghislaine Maxwell. Now that he's gone, the sisters are wrestling with what might have happened if someone had listened. My colleague Mike Baker spoke with them and shared their story with Natalie Kedrow.

It's Monday, August 26th. All right. Just pulling up here to Maria Farmer's house. I think this is the right one. Looks like it is. Hey, Maria. Hi. So for Maria Farmer, her story really begins in the spring of 1995. She really was someone who was growing into the art world in New York.

She's already sort of developing a style that is sort of a voyeuristic style. She's exploring with a lot of nude artwork, a lot of paintings of girls sort of in their transition through puberty. And by the spring of 95, she's already starting to sell some of her pieces. She ends up in this graduation gallery event where students are there to really showcase the work that they've been doing

and to potentially sell some of them. And one of the paintings she has at this graduation event is inspired, she says, by Edgar Degas' famous piece that's sometimes known as The Rape. And at the time she's in the process of selling it, one of the leaders of the Art Institute comes over and introduced her to Jeffrey Epstein and Ghislaine Maxwell. And as she recalls, basically told her, you got to sell this painting to them. You know, they're big supporters of us. They can be big supporters of you. They want this painting. And so you're going to sell it to them. And so where does their relationship go from there?

He said, do you have a dad? And I said, that's an odd question. Of course I do. But my parents are divorced. And he asked me to describe my history. And I said, that's an odd question. Of course I do. But my parents are divorced and he asked me to describe my history and I said, I grew up extremely wealthy. And unfortunately at age 16, my dad left and my mom never went after him. So we are, you know, pretty, we're struggling. It was soon after that Maria sort of gets offered

a job with Jeffrey Epstein. You know, at first it's a job with Jeffrey Epstein. You know, at first it's a job in the art world still in which she's supposed to be collecting artwork or purchasing artwork on his behalf. And the job evolves over time to a point where she's serving as a doorman, essentially, in his New York City townhouse. There were people coming and going constantly, and he said, you know, you can help manage them.

She remembers sort of like leaders in the business and finance world coming to the townhouse. And you can just let them all sign in, and then they can go up the stairs. So that's what I did. I sat at this big round table. She remembers Maxwell frantically preparing for a visit. She doesn't remember Bill Clinton actually showing up, but remembers sort of the rush to prepare the House for that potential visit.

And then she remembers seeing Donald Trump in Epstein's office one night. Epstein called me to go there and it was evening. So everybody had left the office and I'm sitting there in a running outfit and my legs were exposed because, you know, I was a runner and had on running shorts. And Trump comes into the office, doesn't say anything to me, looks at me and kind of snickers and stares at my legs. And Epstein comes out at the same about that time and epstein looks at me goes no no she's not here for you that's what happened the other thing she talks about is getting to know

gillane maxwell who is sort of being described as jeffrey's wife at the time. She was the most charming, most eloquent. Just, she was a delight. Maria remembers Ghislaine as just really someone who was the companion there of Jeffrey Epstein, offered this level of assurance that what was going on in the townhouse was on the up and up. You know, there would be young girls or women coming through that she noticed. She says she would ask Ghislaine Maxwell, you know, what are these girls, young women doing here? You know, some of them are wearing their school uniforms. Like, what's this all about?

They'd go upstairs to apparently where Jeffrey Epstein was at the time. And the response she got was basically, well, they're here to try out for Victoria's Secret modeling gig. So that's their purpose for being here. And so how many, I mean, how many girls are we talking about that are coming in for these supposed modeling?

Hundreds, hundreds, hundreds, hundreds. Do you have a sense of their age? 13, 14, 15, you know? I'm just trying to understand, though, like, how much is recruiting just for Jeffrey and how much is recruiting supposedly for Victoria's Secret? Or are they all one and the same? And how would they be one and the same? Well, I was told at the time, I still believe all of these girls were coming for Victoria's Secret. I thought she was going out and getting models. She told me that was her position to go and get models. remembered a bunch of times when Ghislaine and her would be out of the house and Ghislaine would be

looking for girls to bring to Jeffrey. I've got to go get girls for Jeffrey is what Maria remembered Ghislaine saying. Literally, this is how, this is how like cowboy they were. They would be driving, they had a driver and he would be driving along and Ghislaine would say, get that girl. And they'd stop and she'd run out and get the girl and talk to her. Wow. And at any point does Maria begin to question some of this behavior? You know, I think at that point she's feeling a little weird about it. Maria is spending a lot of time with Ghislaine, but she's also finding Ghislaine to be quite the volatile person. Jeffrey, on the other hand, is much more of a

steady force of friendliness in the house. She remembers him as being sort of the good cop. And one of the ways he was kind of doing that was in taking an interest in Maria's younger sister. Her younger sister, Annie, was 16 years old at the time, living in Arizona. And she was talking about going to college. And Epstein starts talking to Maria about ways that he might be able to help. So it's December 1995 now. And one thing he suggests is bringing Annie, the younger sister, up from Arizona to New York. I just, when I was looking, trying to refresh my memory about this time,

I came across this journal entry. Annie has this journal from that time period. It's a spiral journal with a picture of two sisters on the front. Actually, this one doesn't have a date on it, but it says, I'm so excited. Maria's boss bought me a ticket to come out and see her. It has been almost a year. He is very wealthy and might help me get into or pay for college. I don't want to get my hopes up because I hate disappointment, but it would be really cool if it happened. And even if it doesn't, it's so great. I get to go see her her so it's just like a short shirt you know colored pencil interesting kind of but that was my understanding right you know so what happens when annie gets to new york and so then i go on this trip um and so i fly in i don't know the exact date but late december i'm there for new

years and i fly home like January 6th. Because I had another entry after that. Part of the trip was that he was going to be, I knew he had purchased tickets for us to go to Family Opera, which was like, you know, the 90s. I was so excited to go to Family Opera. I'd been listening to the soundtrack. They have a limo come pick them up and take them up to Jeffrey Epstein's residence at the time. He's also given Maria some money so that Annie can get a dress. They describe this scene at Jeffrey Epstein's residence where,

you know, he's pouring champagne, but he's really relaxed as someone who, you know, always wears sweatpants. And they have a conversation about how UCLA is a great school and that's an option. And they're just sort of like talking about things ahead. And then they go off to see Phantom of the Opera. So for a 16-year-old, this kind of weekend in New York, it must just seem pretty fairytale-like. Yeah, I mean, I think it's a whole new experience for her. And there's some parts that are getting a bit unusual. The only other time that I interacted with him was he had made arrangements for us to go see a movie. And so we went to go see, I believe it was 12 Monkeys.

Yeah, Brad Pitt. It was creepy. My memory was that he was sitting sort of in between my sister and i basically the movie starts and um at some point he starts to kind of like you know reach out to hold my hand and then he sort of started kind of caressing it and then at some point he would touch my shoe and like kind of rub my foot and things like that. She's trying to process during the movie, what is, you know, what is happening here? Is this normal?

Like when Maria would just sort of turn or engage in conversation or something, like then he like dropped my hand or stopped doing that to my foot, which was, you know, because I felt so uncomfortable, but then I was also trying to go back and forth in my mind between whether or not, is this weird? I mean, it feels weird to me, but maybe he's kind of fatherly towards me.

But that didn't jive, obviously, with the idea that he was keeping it for Maria in some way by shielding her so she couldn't see it. And so this is something she's really sort of struggling to process. She doesn't want to mess anything up between her sister and her boss. So did you share that with Maria at all? No, no. I would have died. I would have died. I want to be really clear on this. Somebody touching my baby sister, I would have slapped him.

You know, no, no. No way. Yeah, I'd be interested in hearing that. Uh-uh. No way. Yeah, I'd be interested in hearing that in the journal. So after she gets back from New York, Annie spends a little bit of time writing in her journal. It says, the best night was when Maria and I saw Phantom of the Opera. In the first entry, she's really sort of giving a glowing review

of what had happened there and talking about the chance to go see Phantom. I found him down to earth and easy to talk to. I thanked him so much for the trip, etc. And just how magical the overall experience was. And then later on, sort of at the end of January, she comes back to the journal and talks a little more. It was one of those things that just gave me a weird feeling, but wasn't that weird and probably normal?

You can pretty clearly see that she's still struggling to process what had happened in that movie theater. Oh, well, I decided it was no big deal. It just made me mad because he was being so amazing, helping me with college. He is so nice and so generous with everyone, and I just didn't want to have any weird feelings about it. And then I said, I didn't slash couldn't say anything to Maria about it because she worships him and it would just create problems. I wouldn't, I wouldn't tell anyone else

about it because it is not a big deal. And I didn't want to portray him in a bad light. I really don't think it's a big deal. It's like I'm trying so hard to convince myself, you know? I think he's just a relaxed guy, and maybe he likes to flirt, or he's being fatherly or something. I don't know. This sounds like me trying to justify him doing something weird, but it isn't. And then I jump immediately into, right now my big concern is what am I going to do this summer? There's so many things to do and amazing places to go.

I'm really thinking about something in Africa. It'd be incredible. So what happens after Annie goes home? The relationship kind of continues. Maria and Annie's mother recall that Jeffrey Epstein would call down sometimes to Arizona, you know, check in on them, continue the conversation about her college. And he was talking about the idea of sending Annie on maybe an international trip of some sort. In anticipation of doing that kind of international trip, he was telling Annie's mom, why don't you have her come out to New Mexico? I've got a ranch in New Mexico. The way it was discussed with my mother was that they were going to,

he was doing this generous thing for other students as well of like sponsoring travel. In talking to their mom, you know, she remembers that Jeffrey told her that Ghislaine was going to be there to host, that she was going to be the one sort of making sure that all was going okay. And so that seemed acceptable to her. The thing I remember about landing was that it was the first time, I think the only time in my life there was like a man standing with like my name on a sign, you know, waiting for me at the airport.

And so they're not there. They just have this guy that's come to pick me up and drives me out to the ranch. come to pick me up and drives me out to the ranch. And pretty soon she realizes that there are no other students there. She is the only one. It's her and Jeffrey Epstein and Ghislaine Maxwell together. You know, Ghislaine was exactly as Maria described, very charming from the get-go. She made you feel special.

You know, she's like, oh, let's pick out pick out some like i got some hina to dye my hair with and took me to buy cowboy boots at a western store in town you know and they made a big thing of me like you know trying on all these boots and i thought oh my gosh she's supposed to be really nice because they were like a hundred dollars you know so kind of like this female bonding experience right but then pretty quickly things start taking progressively more unusual turns that's when Ghislaine was um gave me like a lesson in rubbing Epstein's feet and was like you know he really loves to get foot massages and this is something that'd be good for you to learn how to do but you know it was it was uncomfortable but they had this very casual way of like making jokes and stuff and so they're there together.

Ghislaine's massaging one foot. Annie's massaging the other. I remember her like being like, okay, you pull his toe back. Ghislaine's giving pointers about how to perform it. So then there was two other kind of encounters that stand out in my mind. They go to another movie, this time Primal Fear, and Jeffrey Epstein sort of performs another round of petting touches in the theater.

And then one morning, she remembers waking up in the house. I remember, you know, I was in this bed with like kind of like a juve and a down comforter. And Jeffrey Epstein coming into the into the room like comes towards the bed and is like um i want to cuddle and like you know said and again in this way that's like kind of jokey but also like kind of terrifying to me because i'm like i mean you want to cuddle you know and so he climbs into bed with annie and remember she's 16 years old at this point he

is kind of like spooning me you know he's touched he touches me but I think I was freaked out and I was trying to think of it like an excuse to get myself out of that situation as quickly as possible and so I'm like oh I need to go to the bathroom you know and got up and got out of the bed do you remember where Maxwell was I mean and, had you heard of that one? She wasn't. I felt like she was aware of it. So, again, there was this safety in that the door was open. And so I felt like she could have easily been aware of what he was doing

and fine with it. And he then remembers Ghislaine repeatedly asked whether. Have you ever gotten a massage? And he wanted a massage. I'm very skilled in massage, right? And so I want to make sure you get a massage. She said that she was very... She was skilled in massage, yeah.

And she eventually relents. But I had never had a professional massage before. So I didn't know what really was involved in that. And so she said, you know, that I would take off my clothes and lay under the sheet. Ghislaine performs the massage. She had me, you know, flip over to my back. And then she, like, pulled the sheet down

so that my breasts were exposed. And she remembers how Ghislaine then went on to massage her chest. Like, it just, this feels weird. This feels uncomfortable. I don't think this is probably right, but I don't know. And all this time, she's, like, struggling to figure out what's going on. Jeffrey Epstein, she says, wasn't participating in the massage,

but she has this sense that he's in the area, that, you know, the doors are open. It's kind of an open area where she's getting the massage. I could feel his presence, you know, like, oh, I'm sure he can see me from where he is. And she's, I mean, she's isolated in New Mexico with these two people. It's not really like she has the power to stop this, right? No, that's true. And at the same time, she's still, she has an older sister who works for these people. And she's still considering the possibility of this international trip and college and that potential for support that would be a big help for her future and she's there and not wanting to be disruptive or raising alarms in a way that would complicate her life or her sister's life and i again i never thought of maria being in danger like i never i never thought like oh this

is something that he's doing to me and maybe that means that he could be doing do something weird to maria like you know you just i i't, I didn't put those pieces together. So what happens after the trip? She's, you know, getting ready for prom. She's about to go on that international trip. She ends up going. Meanwhile, her sister Maria is back in New York progressing in her art career. She's working on an art project at the time. And they said, listen, you know, you can do an artist in residency. We would love to offer you this house. Jeffrey Epstein actually offers that she can use his Ohio estate to do some of that art, to sort of like have a place where she can have space and time and

peace to work on her project. And so Annie's off in Thailand, thanks to Jeffrey Epstein. Maria is now in Ohio, thanks to Jeffrey Epstein. She was spending weeks there. So Maria remembers Elaine and Jeffrey coming to visit in Ohio. And I thought, these people really are becoming almost like family. This is amazing, right? And I felt the most comfortable I'd been with them the whole time. But it was really that same day, that night, that things took a really dark turn. It was probably nine o'clock at night.

Maria remembers Elaine coming to ask her. She said, oh, Jeffrey wants a foot massage. And I thought, if she could give Jeffrey Epstein a foot massage. All of a sudden I was like, something's wrong. You know, they've never asked me for anything like this. And at first she's like, no, like that's, she kind of sees it as like a degrading request for someone who's there for the purpose of doing art. And it's like, we were all good friends. And then I'd come back and I was suddenly a servant. But, you know, she remembers Ghislaine sort of persisting. And then she's like, okay, I'll do it.

She goes into the bedroom where Jeffrey is. And so he said, just sit down right here. And I felt so uncomfortable. Like, why am I sitting on a bed with my employer? And I asked her, I remember I said, what are you watching? This is funny. What are you watching? He's there watching a PBS show about math, she remembers.

And Ghislaine said, Jeffrey's very smart. This is a show about math. It's just so like, I'm not 13. And at that point, Maria says Ghislaine joined her on the other side. So now she's between Jeffrey and Ghislaine. And he just immediately just starts putting his hand on my breast and he's... They start groping her. Then she started doing the same thing.

Who's Jeffrey and Ghislaine together almost mirroring each other. Ugh. Commenting on her features, twisting her nipples to the point that later they were bruised. She's fearing, believing that she's about to be raped. And Maria has this sort of realization in that moment. The main thing I remember from lying there is, where is Annie? What happened to Annie? Was Annie hurt? Was Annie hurt? Was Annie hurt? So in this moment, Maria is putting all the pieces together.

Right. I mean, I think there's this big moment of clarity for her that recasts her whole relationship with Jeffrey and Ghislaine. Perhaps all along, Jeffrey Epstein was only interested in her artwork because she focused primarily on adolescent girls. She's wondering about that. She's struggling to process everything that had happened. And I was crying a little bit, so I kind of blew my cover. They knew then that something was wrong. So I went to my room and they knew I wasn't very happy. And, but I was trying to act like I was, that I was fine and play it off. So I went in the room and I blocked everything and I started calling people right away. And I called everyone I knew in New York to let them know that I might be killed or something because Ghislaine kept trying to talk to me and she was screaming

at me. So then that morning. The following morning, Jeffrey and Ghislaine leave the property. She hears them leave while she's still barricaded in this room. And Maria's father drives up from Kentucky to get her out of the house. After she left Epstein's house, Maria Farmer said Ghislaine Maxwell called her, warning that she planned to destroy all of the art that Maria had left at Epstein's house. Ghislaine called and said, listen, we're going to burn all your art. And I just want you to know that anything you ever make will be burned. Your career is burned. You are done.

And I said, okay. And I hung up. And so I go to the 6th Precinct. Soon after, Maria said she contacted several law enforcement agencies, including the New York City Police Department, which referred her to other agencies, including the FBI. The Times has obtained the NYPD police report. The FBI has declined to comment. A few years later, Maria and Annie told their story to Vanity Fair magazine, which was writing a profile of Epstein.

But when the story eventually ran, it made no mention of either the sisters or their allegations. Maria says she left New York and the art world, fearing for her safety. She says it wasn't until years later, in 2006, when the FBI knocked on her door, that she felt hope that Epstein might finally be held accountable. hope that Epstein might finally be held accountable. We'll be right back. This experience has obviously cost the sisters so much.

Yeah, for Annie, Annie's doing well. She went on to get her PhD. She has her practice in psychotherapy now. She seems to have come out of it okay there's still struggles there's still this constant issue that she has to deal with in her life for maria this cost her a lot more anyway yeah there are different kinds of rape you know what i mean i was raped of my success and of my sanity for my sister i've always been worried about since. That's why I went to therapy for six years, because I was convinced the mom was going to harm her after that happened.

She became a therapist because of it. I mean, think about it. It really screwed us up. I stopped painting. So Marie has a lot of trouble now, you know, listening to these stories of more women coming forward. I mean, she looks back at 1996 when she first went to law enforcement

to talk about Jeffrey Epstein as a moment that could have been a turning point. And I don't know why none of the other adults told the truth. Why is it all my responsibility? Why did I have to do it all? And why did I get punished for it? When all these people who had power and money and connections could have actually made a difference?

She sees these women coming forward now that have stories in the being raped by Jeffrey Epstein in the early 2000s. I see Annie in her. I see Annie in her. It scares me that she could have been raped. And now Epstein's dead. He committed suicide in jail, and the sisters are never going to get any kind of accountability. Epstein's death was something that was really

another immense disappointment for them. What were the emotions you were going through when you, like in those immediate moments after hearing his death? Shock and anger but at the same time maria has a very just complicated view of the whole thing i'm not angry at him anymore i mean as soon as he died my anger for him left but the main thing is right after it hit me the next day all i could do was cry and actually grieved for him because i had respect for him to think of him being on the floor that's just really it kind of it kind of broke my heart i so i found myself kind of pitying him which is so confusing

because this is this person who my all my life I've thought, OK, he's my enemy. And once he's in prison, everything's going to be OK. He was a sick man and she felt sympathy for him in those last days in jail. A man she had looked up to at some point and feels like she wished he had gotten help at some point along the way. I'm sorry to keep you. Do you have anything to apologize for, Maria? I really appreciate it. Thank you.

And, you know, you're welcome to call me anytime. Thank you. Okay? Thank you. You're welcome. We'll talk to you soon. Again, I'm around in the morning, so feel free to call. Okay, thank you.

I'm going to go swimming. Thank you so much. All right, thank you, Maria. Okay, it was nice meeting you, Mike. I'm sorry. I just can't be anybody but who I am. Okay. I appreciate it.

Thank you. Bye. Fy... Mike, thank you so much. Thank you. We'll be right back. Here's what else you need to know today. Yeah, for sure. Here's what else you need to know today. Do you have second thoughts on escalating the trade war with China? Yeah, for sure. Why not? Might as well. Might as well.

Do you have second thoughts about escalating the war? I have second thoughts about everything. On Sunday, during the G7 Economic Summit, President Trump suggested that he regretted his trade war with China and planned to back away from his most recent threats to escalate it. But he then reversed course a few hours later, saying through his press secretary that his only regret was not imposing higher tariffs on China. I can vaccinate the president on everything that he wants.

The American economy is achieving its fantastic goals. During the summit, the new prime minister of Britain, Boris Johnson, gently scolded Trump for the trade war and called on the president to dial back the battle. Just to register the faint, sheep-like note of our view on the trade war, where you favor the trade peace on the whole. So I'll dial on the trade war, we won't be able to trade peace on the whole. We'll have to die together. That's it for The Daily.

I'm Michael Barbaro. See you tomorrow.