The Daily - 'The Interview': Denzel Washington Has Finally Found His Purpose

Episode Date: February 8, 2025

The legendary actor discusses the prophecy that changed his life, his Oscar snub and his upcoming role starring alongside a “complicated” Jake Gyllenhaal in “Othello” on Broadway.Unlock full access to New York Times podcasts and explore everything from politics to pop culture. Subscribe today at nytimes.com/podcasts or on Apple Podcasts and Spotify.

Hey, it's Michael. For an upcoming episode of The Daily, we want to hear from those of you who work for the federal government, or recently lost your job inside the federal government. We want to know what your work and your workplace feels like right now. Has the work changed? Has the culture changed? What about it feels different? Is it big things?

Small things? How do you feel about these changes? And how do your colleagues feel about them? Basically, what's it like? Details are really helpful. When was the moment that you realized things were changing? Where were you? What happened? How did you react? How'd you feel? We understand that a lot of people are nervous about going on the record. we can keep names anonymous and we can limit identifying information. But we are a podcast, so people will hear your voice. Just to be clear, we won't disclose your information to anyone.

If you want to share your experience, even just a few lines, record a voice memo and email it to us at thedaily at ny times dot com. That's thedaily at ny times dot com with the subject line, federal worker experience. Or you can reach out through the New York Times anonymous tip form at ny times dot com slash tips. If you use that method, please mention the daily. And if possible, please let us know which federal agency you work for. Okay. Now, here's this week's episode of The Interview.

From The New York Times, this is The Interview. I'm David Marchese. So many of Denzel Washington's greatest performances have been defined by a riveting sense of authority, an absence of any pandering or need to be liked. There's something deep down inside his characters that feels unassailable, a little enigmatic, and theirs alone. The same steely qualities that have helped Washington become a legend,

also, as I learned firsthand, make for an unusual and unusually complicated conversationalist. The first of our two discussions was done remotely. He was at a photo studio in Los Angeles, as the fires were still raging there, and I was home in New Jersey. This discussion felt as if it were being conducted entirely on his terms. Or let me put it like this, I didn't feel like we ever quite figured out how to connect. The second time we talked, a little over a week later, things were different.

I met him in person at a space in Manhattan where he was rehearsing for a rare Broadway appearance. He's playing Othello in a new production that co-stars Jake Gyllenhaal as Iago and is directed by the Tony Award winner Kenny Leon. I can't really say why with any certainty, but things just felt easier with him this time. What I do know though is that after it was all over, I was left with an experience just as memorable as one of his performances. Here's my conversation with Denzel Washington. Hello, I'm David. How are you, David Denzel?

Nice to meet you. Pleasure. Just to start, I saw that right at the end of last year. You were baptized and earned your minister's license? I got baptized and I have to now take courses to obtain a license, but I did get baptized, but I'm not an ordained minister. Can you tell me about the decision to go through that process at this point in your life? I went for a ride one day and I decided to go up to Harlem. I was in Manhattan. I decided to get my car and drive up to Harlem.

And riding around, thinking of places where my mother lived, and I stopped in front of the church that my mother grew up in and the door was cracked. So I went in and they were celebrating the young students, members of the church that were going to college and I got involved in that and one thing led to another and whatever it was, weeks later, months later, I got baptized. Your father was a preacher, is that right? Yes, yes. Do you feel like you're sort of following in a family tradition in some sense or connecting with him?

It was prophesied in my youth that I would travel the world and preach or speak to millions of people. I used to think that I was doing that through my work. Now I'm trying to be a bit more specific about speaking about my faith. I've seen you refer to the prophecy. Can you tell folks the story? Well, a woman was sitting in my mother's beauty shop in March 1975. The reason I was in there was because I'd flunked out of college. And this is Mount Vernon, New York, right?

Yeah. Yeah. I was up in Mount Vernon and I was told to take a semester off from school to think about my, you know, what I wanted to do. And every time I looked up in the mirror, I saw this woman looking at me and she said she was having a prophecy She said I would travel the world and preach to millions of people she didn't say anything about me being an actor or or getting back in school, but I have traveled the world and I Am speaking more and more

But was your gift for acting and the career that you've had, do you feel like any sort of message was being delivered through that or was acting totally, you know, did it turn out that it was totally separate from the... No, I wouldn't say it's either or, you know, I don't separate one nor do I categorize, but it's definitely given me the platform to speak. Do you think there might come a time when you move to speaking mostly through ministry and not through acting? I don't know. I don't know. And you know, this is just a bit of a shot in the dark that it's based on just some reading I was doing that I think, you know think sparked some connections for me.

But I was just reading, there's a book by James Baldwin called The Devil Finds Work. And in there, he makes connections between the church and theater. Does that comparison ring true for you? Do you see similarities between the church and theater? The universal stems from the specifics, so you've got to be more specific.

In what way? He says both are about people sort of experiencing an event together, communally creating the event as it happens, when all these people are together in the moment, experiencing the same thing. It sounds like James Baldwin is saying there is an energy and sort of a spirit that is created that for him was sort of similar between the church and the theater. And I can agree with that. I agree with that. Yeah. Yeah. The reason, of course, I ask about theater is because you're going back to the theater to do Othello.

Can you tell me about the rewards for you of doing Shakespeare? It's 48 years between. I played Othello at 22, and I'm going back at 70. So the challenge of that, I love the theater. I started in the theater. I learned to act on stage and as an actor, I think that still gives me the greatest joy

is acting on stage as opposed to acting in movies. That's a thing that I've heard actors say a fair bit, that there is an energy or a joy that comes from doing theatrical work. And immediacy. Yeah, and I'm wondering if you can help someone like me who has no experience acting understand sort of the emotional difference of performing

in the different mediums, yeah. Film is a director's medium. No matter what you do as an actor, the director slash editor decides whether it's in the movie or not. Theater is an actor's medium. Once the curtain goes up, it's between us and the audience. And they tell you how they feel that night.

You know, you've been acting for a pretty long time now. How has your relationship to acting changed? The lines are more frightening now. No, no, I mean, I'd like to think I know a lot more at 70 years old than I knew at 22. And enjoy the ride. I enjoyed, I appreciated more, that's for sure. What do you appreciate about it?

Just being alive, that alone. As somebody said, considering how, I shouldn't even say it. Say it. What did he say? Considering how long you're dead, you're here a relatively short period of time. So for me, that means take full advantage of it and don't take moments for granted.

I was wondering, you know, I also watched the commencement speech you gave at Penn. It was probably, I don't know, 10 years ago, something like that. And you talked to the students about the necessity of, you have to be willing to fail, which is another way of saying you have to be willing to take risks.

And are there ways in which doing a fellow or even just doing theater feels like a risk for you? In light of all that's going on in our world, in light of all that's going on in our state, California, in our city specifically, it's just a play, you know. I'm grateful for the opportunity, but put in perspective, it's just a play.

Yeah, yeah. What has your experience been with the fires out there? Is it, if they come near you or? You know, no, just as a spectator and just being amazed, first of all, it's just the scope and size and devastation. And then hearing all about a lot of people in our industry who've been affected, Pacific Balsays, and just unbelievable, and just unbelievable.

I mean, it's gonna change that city for decades. Yeah, it has changed the city already. How so? Well, it just will never be the same. You know, the scars, the stories, the testimonies that thousands of people have now, the loss of life and of property and memories. And it was, it is an equal opportunity destroyer

from richest to poorest. it's a sad thing. Does it make you wanna live somewhere else? What do you mean, live somewhere else? What do you mean, like run? Well, it's just the reality of the danger in California is, it's scary. No, doesn't make want to live somewhere else. Let me shift gears for a second.

I want to ask you about family. Did having children change your perspective on the work at all? Yeah, it changed my perspective. Like, shoot, they got to go where to school? It cost how much? How much do clothes cost? Yeah, it changed everything. I think I'm always curious about with actors is,

and just artists generally, is when they realize it is also a business and a money-making enterprise and, you know, it's not just this pure thing where you follow your artistic bliss all the time. And it's sort of what you're describing a little bit. Like, at some point you thought, well, I got to take money making jobs. Does that affect how you approach the work itself?

When I learned about my favorite uncle, my least favorite uncle, my uncle Sam, that was the eye opener. I'm like, what? He takes what? You mean from go? He gets how much? What did he do? You know, that's the reality of it. And a dollar is not a dollar. It's about 40 cents by the time you're an agent, lawyer, business manager, Uncle Sam, everybody else gets finished with you. The dollar is about 38 cents and that's what it is. So you gotta cobble those 38 cents together to make a dollar, a real dollar. But does it affect the work? Like if you know that something is a money job basically,

do you go about doing that job any different? If you're asking me, did I ever take a job for money? No, no, I'm asking. Because I was about to answer it. Okay, yeah. I've taken every job for money. There's no job I've taken because I got about to answer it. Okay. Yeah, I've taken every job for money There's no job I've taken where I went, you know what you guys just keep the money. I'm just so happy I'm just so glad to be an actor. I don't even want the money my kids will work it out

They'll will will homeschool them. You're breaking my I don't I think you're There's got to be a difference in the calculus when you say yes to Mississippi Masala or even Malcolm X as opposed to Virtuosity or Ricochet, action movies. Yeah, probably. Especially Virtuosity. That was... I had some bills to pay. Ricochet was more like venturing down that road

for the first time. The action movie road. Yeah, the action movie road, which I didn't really know. Virtuosity had definitely had something to do with tuition. I'm sure. Going back to the subject of your children, they all work in the business, right? That's something that you felt like you had to navigate

with them or talk with them? I mean, I imagine they got jobs before I knew they were in the business. John David was reading for ballers and I didn't even know about it because he was working with his mom. Pauletta didn't tell me. So he got the job before I knew about it. Why didn't they tell you?

Because I probably would have told everybody or blown it or done something because I talked too much. Your wife, Pauletta, is an actress. Yes. And singer and concert pianist, child prodigy. Van Cliburn, you familiar with the Van Cliburn competition? Yeah, the piano competition. Yeah, my wife was a Van Cliburn competitor. Juilliard, North Carolina School of the Arts, the whole... I married up.

What have you learned about being an artist from her? That it's an art. You know, that it's an art. Acting just sort of chose me and I got going and all good. But she's an artist. I never looked at myself that way. And I just learned a lot about it. The discipline of it, the discipline of it, the appreciation of it from her. So do you still not look at yourself as an artist?

I try not to look at myself, period. You know, look at myself as a what? I ain't got no time for that. I'm not much for reflection. Can I ask you about the piece? I don't time for that. I'm not much for reflection. Can I ask you about the piece? I don't have any money. Yeah. That was my next question.

Yeah, I know. Go ahead. You're gonna ask me about what? Do it. The first person piece you did for Esquire last year, sort of tied to a Gladiator II. You know, you talked sort of a, almost like a memoiristic piece.

You talked about your whole life and your career. And I think that was the first place, at least that I've seen where you really talked about, um, drinking. Um, and in there, you said there's this long period. I think you pegged it as like 1999 to 2014. When you put the beverage down, you were bitter. Bitter about what?

I was bitter when I put it down or I was bitter when I picked it up. I'd be interested to hear what you say now. I was probably bitter when I picked it up. Not when I put it down. I wasn't bitter when I put it down. Yeah. But what were you bitter about? What do you pick something?

I don't know. Any excuse will do and no excuse is good enough. Do you feel like you have insight into sort of what the, like what the drinking was about? Who commanded it? We don't have that much time, brother. Yeah, we don't have that much time. Is it right that you used to carry around your acceptance letter from the American Conservatory theater?

Uh, no, I kept a letter from my English teacher. Oh, why did, why was it something that you kept? He just wanted to get all in my business because it made me feel good. It was, it was, it was a letter of recommendation. That's what it was. It was a letter of recommendation. That's what it was. I'm just trying to fish around for things that might be engaging.

I don't mean to fish, you know, I'm not trying to get all up in your business or- But you are all up in my business, man. Yeah, I apologize. And I don't like it, man. I'm just here to tell you. I'm joking, I'm joking. Oh, thank God.

That was a joke. Oh my God. You look so serious. That was a joke. Oh my God. He looks so serious. That was a joke. He is. I know how to get you now. You're easy. I'm too easy is the problem. I'm just saying, can I be honest with you? Go ahead. Sure.

I just want to be honest. Might as well. I don't know where to go conversationally with you. I feel like I'm just jumping around and I'm not connecting. I not connecting, but, and I don't know what I'm supposed, what if there's a different- Would you like, maybe I should ask you a question. Sure. Why do you feel that way?

Oh, you know, um, can I give you two answers to that? It's okay. I'll have two, two answers. Yes. Well, the first answer is why I feel that way is because the answers have sort of been short and, you know, often people sort of are a little more expansive. And I think, well... Okay, I'll give you an expansive answer. Ask me a question and I'm gonna give you an expansive answer.

Well... Uh... Ha-ha-ha. Go ahead. All right, so you... Not too long ago, you finished filming a film with Spike Lee, is that right? Yes. That was your answer.

Yeah. Ha ha ha ha ha ha. You tricked me again. No, no, I did finish one with Spike Lee. Good. So, and I think it's your first time. Hello. Yes, your first time working with him

since Inside Man, which is almost 20 years ago. How has your relationship with him changed over time? What was different about it? That's a good question. Finally. No, no, because I don't know that it didn't feel like 20 years. We had such great success 20 years ago. I guess he kicked me to the curb

and started working with my son. It actually, I come to think of it. Maybe, yeah, he kicked me to the curb and started working with my son. No, it felt like we picked up where we left off. I mean, Spike is Spike. Meaning? Spike is consistent. Lee Spike. Meaning? Spike is consistent.

Lee Spike. I love that about him and I love working with him and I'd work with him again. And, you know, I just like the way his brain works. Can I tell you the second reason why I'm having a hard time today? Why? I like to ask philosophical questions about like why people do what they do and sort of the meaning of it. And it seems like-

What's wrong with that? I enjoy it. And it seems like when I've asked you those types of questions, it just hasn't seemed interesting to you. And I think as a result, I feel like I've been flailing a little just trying to say, what about this? What about that? Well, here's your opportunity to get back on

tracks with your next question. All right, I'll try again. I'll try again. It's not going to work. Yes, it will. See, how are you going to say it's not going to work before you even try? Okay, I'll try. So-

It's not going to work. No, go ahead. Now I'll try. It's not gonna work. No, go ahead, go ahead. Now you're just liking making me squirm, but that's fine. What's the question? So I'm always curious about the interplay, okay, between the life and the work. And I just rewatched Flight, which that's my favorite

performance of yours. Oh wow, interesting. Yeah, in that one you play an airline captain named Whip Whitaker who was struggling with alcohol, managed to save a flight in sort of semi-miraculous fashion. And the thing that I was thinking about in watching that one was how it fit in with your life at the time,

because it was in that timeline, I think, when you were drinking. And I did wonder, did playing that character show you anything about your own situation or, yeah, I'll stop there. Did it show me anything about my own situation? Not that I recall. I mean, first of all, I didn't drink and work, never have.

I'd work and then drink, like maybe when I'm finished, the movie or whatever. So I wasn't... You know, I don't even remember whether I was drinking those evenings or not. I don't really recall, to be honest with you. But what was the question you said, did it affect? But you said, did it what?

Yeah. Did you learn anything about yourself from doing a role like that? I think when you're in the middle of it, you're not so self-reflective because you're still working out the character. You haven't shot the last scene. You don't know how it ends, in a sense. You know, not making light of it,

but not when you're in the middle of it so much. I think that's with any character. You're saying you sort of gained some understanding maybe after the fact, not when you're doing it. Well, yeah, if you're thinking about it, which I probably wasn't. Yeah, yeah. What kinds of things do you think I should?

Ask me? Ask you. I wanna know more about you. Okay, we can switch roles. I would love to do that. What do you need to work on more than anything else? If you said to yourself, I wish I was better at this, what would that be?

Aside from interviewing Denzel Washington? No, come on, don't deflect. We're talking about you now. I'll tell you, I'll tell you. The thing that I need to work on more than anything else is I have an assertiveness problem and a problem with conflict. You mean you're being assertive or you're too assertive? With being assertive.

And you're not assertive enough? I'm not assertive enough. And I have a problem with conflict in a way that, because I try and avoid it, the problems end up, rather than getting solved, they just linger. And that had something to do with your dad or what? Oh, see, I should be taking lessons from you. Would you answer these types of questions if I asked you them? Ask me. What do you need to work on the most?

Hmm. Othello. No, you're deflecting. Yeah, I know. You said I can't deflect, so you don't deflect. Okay, no, good point. I don't know. What do I need to work on the most? It's even my answer sounds like a deflection.

I was gonna mention my faith, but that sounds like deflection. I don't know, maybe that's a good thing. I can't think of something I need to really work on. Well, I think that means, I mean, nobody's perfect. Maybe you're not. I didn't say I was perfect. Not thinking hard enough.

Yeah, maybe I'm not thinking hard enough. You know, relationships, you can always do better there. How? Okay, I'm a talker, so I gotta work on listening. Doesn't feel like you're a talker. No, I guess because I'm listening today. It's a role I'm playing. Wait, ask me another one.

Tell me the second thing that you love, not the first thing, the second thing you love the most. Well, two things, can I tell, can I say two? All right, go ahead. This is gonna sound so corny, the second one's not as corny, but the first one that came to mind was laughing. Oh, that's a good thing.

Great, that's a great thing. And then the second thing is intellectual stimulation. I hate being bored. I like both of those answers. I'm running with that. Laughter and intellectual stimulation. Stimulation. Stimulation, what'd I say stimuli... Stim... Stimulation. Stimulat...

What'd I say? Stimulat... Stimulization. Intellectual stimulation. That's what... Obviously, I need more intellectual stimulation. Okay, your turn.

The thing that what? That I'm... The thing you love second most, I think, what's the question? I think the opportunity to lift others up. How have you done that? Every opportunity and every which way I can. Sometimes with a dime, sometimes with a dollar,

sometimes with a good word. I love helping people. I love seeing people do well. So any opportunity I get to do that is really selfish because it makes me feel good. Can I do my version of the kinds of questions you've been asking me? Okay.

How do you think evil works in the world? It's an opportunity for good to take advantage of it. Evil is short term. Evil always has an end. Evil's always revisited on the evil, period. That's all I got to say about it. It's always revisited on the evil. Where do you think evil comes from? We're the only animal on the planet that God is blessed

with free will. You don't believe me? Run from a lion and see if the lion goes, I think he's a nice guy. He does good interviews. We're going to let him live today. Now, he's going to chase you down. He's going to eat you. He's going to chase you down. He's going to eat you. The last question for this time. What should I go away and think about in preparation for when we talk again? Man goes down to the ocean and tries to fit all the knowledge of the ocean into his little brain instead of just jumping in the water and enjoying himself. Sometimes you just have to have faith in things bigger than our ability to understand them. Now, you call it what you want. Some call it God. You call it what you want. But sometimes

you just have to jump in the water and enjoy yourself and not try to figure it out. All right, I think that is something for me to think about. Ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha! For next time. For next time. Bring your bathing suit. We're jumping in the water together next time. -♪ After the break, Denzel and I sit down in person,

and he digs a little deeper into this moment in his career. Well, the day you didn't get an nomination for an Oscar, you're working on Othello on Broadway. Are you kidding me? Oh, oh, I'm so upset. Thank you for giving me another run of this. I appreciate it. Thank you. And so we're in this rehearsal space where you're working on Othello.

How are the rehearsals going so far? It's going well. In fact, we have our first day today, which is day four of rehearsal, where we'll start to just starting to stand it up on its feet, just starting today will be the first day of blocking. And how much of our conversation from last week do you remember? Do you remember any? None.

So that's helpful for me because I really felt like I was flailing, from last week, do you remember? Do you remember any? None. None. All right, good. So that's helpful for me because I really felt like I was flailing. But at the end of our conversation, I had asked you if there was anything that maybe I could reflect on before we spoke again. And you told me this little, very short little parable about a man standing at the edge of the water.

Man goes down to the ocean. I forgot where I got that. That might've been some yogi, I don't know where I got it from, but the way I interpret it over the years, the way I've come to understand it is that jumping in the water is faith. Just jumping, you know, you can't figure it all out. Yeah, but the way I was thinking about that parable was that I felt like in our first conversation,

I was too stuck in my own head, wrapped up in expectations of how the conversation was supposed to go rather than just being with you in the moment, you know, and sort of meeting you where you were. But my question also is, where did you learn that lesson that sometimes you just gotta jump in the water rather than think about the water? Well, I've tried everything else. Yeah.

Yeah, I've tried everything else. You know, I was reading from Matthew today, and it talks about the mustard seed, and if you put it in rocky soil, it won't grow, and all those things. And it talks about faith, that you have to have faith that it will grow. And it talked about this, you can't even figure out how it grows, or why it grows, or where the sun comes from.

Man goes down. Here's what I mean. Man tries to reduce everything down to his understanding, which is the ultimate in ego, which is if I don't understand it, it doesn't exist. So people don't understand God, so some say therefore he doesn't exist, or they say I'm God, because that's what they need. Well, I'm like, how's that working out? because that's what they need. Well, I'm like, how's that working out? If that works for you, okay. I was watching something interesting last night, I'm jumping all over the place, but I'll give you the next... I was watching this thing about Herod, man. Pete Slauson Oh, King Herod. Jared Slauson Oh, so this long special. I was like, man, he was a mess. See, he thought he

could think his way to heaven. So he kept building things on higher and higher places and he's going to be up here looking down on everybody. And obviously he was a genius, but I guess he died in the worst way. I don't know. I don't remember. You know, you also spoke last time about the value for you of helping people. Does acting help people?

11 At this point, everything I'm doing is through the lens of what God thinks, not what they think. I don't know what they think. That's a whole, you go down that, you'll never come out of that. I hope they enjoy the show, but I can't. I don't know what you need. I can't, you know, we don't do a poll before the screening or before the play starts. There's some interesting themes of jealousy and envy

and pain and death and Kenny, brilliant director, he's putting in what he calls the near future. So it's now, let's say, or near now. So all of those things, jealousy, envy, all of that, it takes on a whole new thing with the information age. What's your favorite line from Othello? I don't know. I got two, you want to hear them?

Okay. First is Othello's. Are they from him or from- Well, one's from Othello, one's Iago. Othello is who can control his fate. And then my favorite line of all of Shakespeare is Iago's line, I am not what I am. I am not what I am. He said it yesterday.

He's a complicated guy. He's going to be brilliant in this. Who? Jake Gyllenhaal is playing Iago. Yeah, man, because he's crazy. He's nuts. guy. He's going to be brilliant in this. Who, Jake Gyllenhaal, is playing the audio. He's nuts. I love him. He's so... He's complicated. But he's already got a handle on it. You know, I'm... I can see how far ahead people are.

I mean, I'm not worried about that. Because I don't like to learn the lines too soon. I was telling a young actor, like, why don't you like to learn them too soon? I says, because then I'm the voice I'm listening to delivering the cues to myself. I want to hear it from you. And that's going to affect how I say what I say. Yeah.

So for me, that works. And to be quite honest, because I played it before, I still kind of remember it, but it's not word for word. I'm seeing where I miss a word here, word there. So it's like, not like I got a, like I learned the first scene last night in about an hour and a half, where I ran a little bit with the kid this morning before I saw you, and I'm like, oh, okay, I'll be all right.

You just said Jake Gyllenhaal was complicated. Do you think? In a good way. In a good way. Oh yeah, in a great way. Are you complicated? I'm sure way. In a good way. Oh yeah, in a great way. Are you complicated? I'm sure, yeah, I hope so.

I mean, you know, trying to thin the herd, keep it simple. My mother used to say that, keep it simple. That's hard to do. I'd like to tell you that this morning, I woke up and started thinking about God. I woke up and started thinking about Othello. But then I said, but that's okay, you're excited.

You know, it's an interesting place for me to visit now, 48 years after I visited it. The first time on the way to work, we were going down 9th Avenue, and we passed Fordham University. And I said, the first day of rehearsal, Tuesday, I said, wow, 48 years ago, I was doing Othello right there at 22.

And now I'm heading over here to 40, whatever it is, 5th Street to do Othello again. Ain't life interesting. And I'm only two blocks away from where we live now, which, you know, and we overlook the park. Oh, my wife, I remember saying to my mother, I said, Ma, you know, all these years, and I only moved two blocks.

She said, yeah, but you went up 14 stories as only a mother, yeah. You know, you said everything now is kind of about seeing it through the lens of what God thinks. Or at least through the lens of faith, yeah. How does acting fit into that? That's why you pray every day. I'm like, okay, Lord, I'm here.

I think this is what you wanted me to do. Now, I'm not sure why, you know, but one can say coincidence and serendipity and all those things. I bit my tongue almost half off about a few months ago and it's affecting my speech. It forces me to slow down. You know, as they say, bite your tongue. Othello says, rude am I in my speech. I said, you mean I bit my tongue so I can better? Well, the fact of the matter is that is what it is. And I gotta go forward with it. I have to use it.

I have a line, I'm just starting to learn it. Whither will you that I go to answer this your charge? Whither will you that, you see what I'm saying? It's hard. It's hard and because my tongue is, yeah, my tongue is sore. And I got some temporary tooth put in cause my tooth fell out of my head.

So my everything is thicker. It's affected everything. And I'm thinking that's a bad thing. So I don't think it's ever gonna heal. It's like I got a little flap in there now. But you just gotta use it. You just gotta use it. Jump in the water and enjoy yourself.

Instead of worrying about drowning. Yeah. This is, you know, I've really been thinking a lot lately about David Lynch, who just died. Can I tell you- He's velvet. Oh, what about- Back of a movie, man. That was a great movie.

I loved it. Yeah. I was like, this guy's nuts. But the thing that, one of the reasons, I mean, I loved it. I was like, this guy's nuts. But the thing that one of the reasons, I mean, I loved his movies, but one of the reasons that he was really meaningful to me and why I've been thinking about him so much is that, you know, probably about 15 or so years ago,

maybe in a little longer, I was really low, you know, sort of just really struggling. And I thought I gotta change something. My life can't go on like this. And I, because I liked his movies, I, you know, my life can't go on like this. And because I liked his movies, I saw that it was in a bookstore and I saw that David Lynch had this book called Catching the Big Fish, it was about creativity.

And in there he has a bit where he's talking about why he meditates. He said, one of the benefits of meditation is that it helps you become more you. And then I started meditating about 15 or so years ago, maybe even longer, and it's completely changed my life. You know, like just seeing that one little sentence in that one book I picked up one day

by David Lynch changed my life. Do you, have you ever had an experience like that or just some, you know, from afar, someone changed your life? Prophecy changed my life completely. Now I wasn't ready. Going back to Matthew, it must have been seed planted in, I forgot, there's rocky soil and there's the other one where it talks about the cares of the world coming and take it away from you.

So she planted the seed, but I wasn't ready for it. Or I didn't understand it. It's been a 50-year journey from then. I was 20 then, I'm 70 now. I'm on that 50-year journey to understanding. Did an artist ever change your life? An artist? Yeah.

Yes. So my English teacher, Bob Stone, who was in the fellow with Paul Robeson, Robinson Stone, you can look him up. He wrote a recommendation letter for me for the American Conservatory Theater, which I still have. And what he wrote was just so, he basically said to them, if you don't have the ability to give this young talent what he needs,

then don't accept him. Which was like, I was like, wow. Like reverse psychology, I was like, whoa. But yeah, that, he was artistically, especially early on, the most important person because he had been there. He understood the game. He helped me get introduced me the first agents and all while I was still in college. You know, then isn't the funny twist of that story that didn't you drop out of ACT after

a couple months? No, I stayed for a year. For a year. Okay. Politics. I could see what was going on and I already wait what was going on. And I don't need to bother with that, but just politics and... But more importantly, I had already signed with William Morris.

I had already done a movie, TV movie, where I met my wife. I didn't need to stay. And it just, I don't say I outgrew it. I got enough and the agents would call them. I'm like, I can go back to work. I don't need to stay, because you would have to stay another two years to get a masters. And I'm already signed with William Morris and get in work. So I left after a year.

This is sort of a base question, but did you find that you cared at all about not getting an Oscar nomination for Gladiator II? Did it matter? Um, I was sitting there smiling, going, listen, look at you. Well, today you didn't get an nomination for an Oscar. You're working on Othello on Broadway. Are you kidding me? Oh, oh, I'm so upset. You know, I'm happy for all that did and I'm happy with what I'm doing. You know, listen, I've been around too long and I got, I don't want to say other fish to fry, but there's a reality at this age, going back to what I was saying, the beginning of wisdom is understanding.

And I'm getting wiser, working on talking less and learning to understand more. And that's exciting. Is there anything you want people to take away from this interview? Believe in something greater than yourself. Believe. It's a complicated world. There's too much information coming at us from too many places, good and bad, There's too much information coming at us from too many places, good and bad, for us to think that we can reduce it all to our level of understanding with our little brain. We are being forced to have faith. However you interpret that, we are being forced by our circumstances. Look at the world. What does it give you every day?

Fires, death, murder, politics, dictators, this, that, division, separation. I'm right, you're wrong. Look at the world we've created for ourselves. That's all I gotta say. Um, Mr. Washington, thank you for taking all the time to talk with me. This was a challenge, and I appreciate you making it a challenge. It was good for me. It was good for me. Well...

Tell me again the name of the David Lynch book. Oh, yeah, Catching the Big Fish. Catching the Big Fish. You know, I'll email... Give me a copy of it. I'll send you a copy. A hard copy. I'm still analog.

I read books. Can you read a book from a phone? Never. Never. Never, right? All right, get to work. Yeah. All right, God bless you guys.

Enjoy your day. That's Denzel Washington. Othello begins previews later this month. This conversation was produced by Wyatt Orm. It was edited by Annabel Bacon, mixing by Afim Shapiro. Original music by Dan Powell, Elisha Be'etoop, and Marion Lozano.

Photography by Devin Yalkin. Our senior booker is Priya Matthew, and Seth Kelly is our senior producer. Our executive producer is Allison Benedict. Special thanks to Rory Walsh, Renan Barelli, Jeffrey Miranda, Nick Pittman, Maddie Masiello, Jake Silverstein, Paula Schumann and Sam Dolnick. If you like what you're hearing,

follow or subscribe to The Interview wherever you get your podcasts. To read or listen to any of our conversations, you can always go to nytimes.com slash the interview. And you can email us anytime at theinterview to nytimes.com slash The Interview, and you can email us anytime at theinterview at nytimes.com. Next week, Lulu talks with Senator Ruben Gallego. I'm David Marchese, and this is The Interview from The New York Times. Music