The Daily - 'The Interview': Joel Embiid Believes He Could Have Been the GOAT

Episode Date: July 20, 2024

The N.B.A. star talks Philly cheesesteaks, Twitter trolling and playing for Team U.S.A. over France in the Olympics.

From the New York Times, this is The Interview. I'm David Marchese. When the Olympics kick off in Paris next week, the Americans will be the overwhelming favorite for the men's basketball gold, like always. And this year, central to that team is Philadelphia 76ers star Joel Embiid. Embiid is one of basketball's best players, but he also seems weirdly cursed. I think of him almost as a kind of NBA Sisyphus because for all his individual success, and that includes an MVP award and back-to-back scoring titles,

he's never won a championship. The Sixers have repeatedly fallen short in the playoffs, at times in almost comically heartbreaking fashion. I'm talking literally due to a couple unlucky bounces here and there. And then there's the turnover. The team has seen coaches, star players, and general managers come and then go. And Embiid himself keeps getting hurt. That combination of iffy management and bad luck have cast the shadow of unfulfilled potential over Embiid's decade-long career. So in some ways, the Olympics are a chance for a bit of redemption.

But the path to Paris hasn't been smooth either, starting with the question of which country to play for. Embiid is a citizen of the U.S., France, and Cameroon. And as he told me, for him, the decision of which jersey to put on wound up being both personal and political. Here's my conversation with Joel Embiid. Can you talk to me a little bit about what it means for you to be playing for the United States? It means a lot. I mean, I spent half of my life here already.

You know, if you're looking at it, I'm going to spend, you know, more time here than I have in my home country. I've got a great family, great wife, great people around, you know, my son. So it just made a lot of sense. And I just felt like having built a lot over here and having that opportunity to achieve the dream that I've had since growing up, I really appreciated that. Not to draw too many comparisons between you and me, because I don't think there are that many comparisons between you and me, but I'm from Canada originally, and I have dual citizenship, Canadian and US, you know, and I have now been in the United States for 19 years. So soon I'll have lived in America for longer than I was in Canada.

And it's clear to me that for whatever reason, I will never self-identify as American, even though I have built my family here. My wife is American. My kids are American. Do you have similar feelings? Like when you think of Joel Embiid, do you think of yourself as American? No, I think of myself as from Cameroon. You know, I was always going to be home. I was born there.

And what I've seen growing up, the struggle, I always identify, you know, with it. Because I think that's also one of the reasons why I ended up the way I am and I ended up succeeding because of the environment I was raised in. Nothing was ever comfortable. I always felt like got to work for everything. And that's probably one of the reasons that kind of helped me. You know, I started playing basketball at 16. So, like, it's hard to make it, you know, when you start that old.

And especially because guys have been playing their whole life in America. So, if I didn't kind of live through it growing up, I don't think I would have made it. A lot of people thought you were going to play for the French men's basketball team at this year's Olympics. You ultimately decided to play for the American men's team. Can you tell me how you wound up making that decision? It was tough. Obviously, I got, you know, my home country, Cameroon, which I love. And the U.S. where I've been for, I think it's 14 years now. And then obviously France, where I have a lot of family and I've been to France, you know, a lot of times.

So it was tough. But my goal, you know, growing up, I watched the Olympics. It was always about, you know, I want to play. I want to be part of it. So that's been my dream. So to me, that was what matters the most, you know, achieving my dreams. matters the most, you know, achieving my dreams. And, you know, one thing I'll say, I kind of felt rushed in that decision because I wanted to take as much time as possible.

And it didn't help that, you know, fans there put an ultimatum on, you know, when the decision had to be made. They set a timeline and said, so what was the timeline that they set? I didn't know. You know, I saw it on Twitter, and I was like, whoa, you know, where did this come from? Because, I mean, from the conversations that I had with the U.S. was, you know, just take as much time as you need. You know, there's no rush. You know, we'd love to have you, but it's okay, you know, if you make another decision. And when you got someone else putting the pressure on you,

making it seem like, oh, you got to make the decision. But then again, one thing that was always known was that Cameroon is the first choice. And if they qualify, I'm playing for my home country because that's my dream, to play in the Olympics. And, you know, I had the opportunity to talk to the French president about what was going on. And, you know, I told him, I mean, one thing that was kind of bothering me a lot was the relationship between France and Cameroon and African countries in general.

Yeah, historically. And even right now, like, you know, like there's a lot of things going on over there where there's a lot of pushback as far as, you know, basically kicking out of French because it's been so many years of oppression. And so that was my mindset because I just knew it would be hard. Like I still got my family living in Cameroon

and I don't want to put them through any of that stuff. You know, I want them to be safe. And, you know, the relationship between France and Cameroon or Africa in general is just not good. You said you spoke to the president about this? You mean Macron? Yeah, Macron. You know, no disrespect.

I would hope he has more important things to do than try to convince basketball players to come play for the French team. But what did you say to him and what did he say back to you? No, man, it was a nice conversation. You know, just I got a call and at first I usually don't answer random numbers. And then I got a text and I figure what was happening. It was a nice conversation. It was great. the idea that if your kid hasn't identified his or her sport by the time they're 12 years old, they're never going to be a professional at that sport or make it to the next level. So do you think the emphasis on starting kids super early in sports is misguided, or is it more likely that you're just, you know, sort of an athletic super talent and you were able to make it work? I don't think there's a right or wrong answer to it.

Obviously, it's a little different for me because he worked. So, yeah, to answer your question, I mean, I got a son now. To me, first of all, I don't want to push him to play sports. He's going to do whatever he wants. If he start liking it, sure. But if he doesn't and he's not interested in it, there's no point. He's going to do it. Your son is what, two?

Three. Three. So you have some time to worry about that. Yeah, he's in a Montessori school. Like, you know, he's all about letting them, you know, make their own choices. And, you know, so he's going to figure it out. But the thing that I know is that

if you want to play sports, you doesn't necessarily have to start playing basketball at that age or that young. Because growing up, that's what I did. I played every sport. So that probably prepared me for when I did start playing basketball at 16. I wasn't ready, but I had the footwork and I had some of the fundamentals. and I had some of the fundamentals.

Are there ways in which having a son has changed how you think about your job? Yeah. It changed everything. We had him in 2020. And before that, I was not a serious human being. I was always joking around. I was always saying whatever. I was always acting crazy.

That was the golden days of my Twitter era. Yeah, you famously were a very good Twitter troll, among other things. Yeah, basically. And then once I found out that I was having a kid, and then I was like, all right, yeah, I got to set a better example. I can't just be on Twitter just trolling, and that can't be my life. And, yeah, that basically changed everything. The way I started thinking, you know, my focus on basketball changed.

Not that I wasn't taking it seriously before, but I even took it to another level. Explain to me why having a child made you take it to a next level. Because I think, you know, for some people, the thought process might be like, hey, I have a kid now. I realize like maybe basketball is not the most important thing. It was all about setting a good example. I think he came from my dad growing up. He was a handball player and really good too. And he was also in the army.

So, you know, I was always going through all these games and just watching him competing and succeeding, that was kind of like the ball for me. And I always told myself, like, I want to be better than him. So if that was the ball, I was like, I got to achieve more. And I don't want to put that pressure on my son, but like, you know, if that's the way he wants to look at life, then if the ball is, you know, winning all these things, then he has to be the greatest player ever, which at least, you know, I think to me, it's all about health. If I was healthy and all the seasons, that would be a different conversation.

Is the implication that you think you would be in the greatest player of all time conversation without the injury problems? I think so. I think I'm that talented. I didn't stop believing it probably until, I'd say my fourth or fifth year in the league, where I had the opportunity to accomplish something special.

And for that, obviously, you need to win championships. And to win championships, you need other guys. You need help. You can't do it by yourself. It's just impossible. So that's why I want to win so bad. But then again, if you don't, you just got to understand, as long as you worry about the right stuff,

and if it doesn't happen, then I guess maybe it wasn't meant to happen. So, yeah, I kind of forgot the question, so I got lost. It was a question. But you answered it. The question was about whether or not you feel like you were on a greatest of all time trajectory. Yeah, I mean, if you think about it, the thing that has stopped me all these years is just freak injuries. Every single playoffs, regular season, people falling on my knee or someone breaking my face twice.

It was always about freak injuries at the wrong time. Like, I really believed that because I would have been, if I was more healthy, I mean, I think it would have been a different story. Yeah. What is the psychology of having to come back from injuries over and over again? Because I think most of us can relate to, you know, wanting to achieve something and working hard toward achieving something. And then through circumstances beyond our control, in your case, injuries, not being able to achieve that thing. So how have you learned to not get discouraged? Going back to how I was raised and where I came from is always about pushing, wanting to be better for yourself.

And there's only one injury that I've had that kind of put me, it was this past year where, you know, mentally and physically, I just, that's the first one that, like, it was tough. But every other one was always about, okay, it happens. What am I supposed to do about it? It's life. And then this past year was... Yeah, why was that different?

I don't know. Just mentally, physically, because I was... You're playing your best basketball of your career, and it's just becoming so easy every single night. Like, you're winning games and dropping 40, 50, 60. Like, you just... 70. Didn't you have a 70-point game? Yeah. You finally got to figure it out.

Like, you just become, you know what to do. You have an answer for everything that's presented to you on the floor. Double, triple, ten, you just know where to go like the system is in place and the guys everybody's doing their job man and then you're on your way to accomplish you know a lot of good things and then just like that you know something happens someone falls on your knee again and for for this one, I don't know. I don't have any explanation to why it was so tough, but it just was mentally depressing, physically, your body not responding the way it should. So how did you deal with that when you were depressed and your body wasn't responding? when you were depressed and your body wasn't responding? So same mindset, get back to it,

walk as hard as possible, not let anybody see any weaknesses and act like everything is great and hopefully you snap out of it. You've been there in Philly about 10 years. I might get the numbers a little wrong, but I think you had three coaches in that time. There's been front office turnover.

Other superstar players have come and gone. James Harden, Jimmy Butler. Do you find yourself ever having questions about, in the long term, whether Philly is the place where you can win a championship? Because there has been that sort of tumultuousness with the franchise since you've been there. Yeah. I mean, I'm sure everybody asks themselves questions.

If you care about the right things and you care about winning and it hasn't happened, which I'm probably at fault too. Why would you be at fault? Because I'm in injuries. I don't perform, you know, at the level that I should. So that's why I'm at four. But then again, if you want to win, the thing that I always talked about is stability, continuity. Actually having three coaches, based on what I've seen,

is not too bad. It's not too bad. But no, still three coaches, three different systems. And even within those coaches, every single year is something different. And then the players, every single year is like new co-stars, new players.

And when you start looking at teams that have won, whether it's Golden State, Boston this year, Denver last year, those guys have been together for a long time. And then they just added a few other pieces that were able to take them over the top. So you start thinking about, I mean, you go through the years, the Jimmy year, we had a pretty good team.

And then we end up losing on a game, winning buzzer bid, you know, against the eventual champions. Famous Kawhi Leonard, Game 7, the ball bounced around the rim and went through and you guys lost. And the way I look at it is like, you got so close. And instead of like, what can we do to make the team better, but also having the same core changed the whole team. No continuity.

No continuity. You mentioned that Game 7 against Toronto, I think it was 2019. After that game on the court, you were crying. And I think for some people who were watching, that was an endearing moment. It showed how much you cared. And, you know, probably for some other people, maybe they thought, you know, we don't want to see athletes crying. For the whole Twitter world, that was a fun moment for them. They enjoyed that.

Why? What were they saying on Twitter? No, I don't know. I'm just... Yeah, because I... You know what they are saying. Don't say you don't know. To this day, I still see the video and the me. You know, they make fun of it. I just look at it. You know, for some people, they just saw it as a way to kind of make fun of you, but I just look at it, you know, for some people that just saw it as a way to kind of make fun of you.

But I just care. Like, you just see, you know, it hurts, you know, losing. But my question was whether or not that moment or that game was sort of a turning point for your demeanor on the court. Because I think leading up to that, you know, you sort of had a more playful attitude on the court, you know, sort of embraced the showmanship aspect a little bit more. And then after it seemed like you were sort of more, just more serious on the court. 2020 was probably my worst year in the NBA. I just wasn't having fun because going back to continuity, like we got rid of Jimmy, JJ, and basically started over. I'm just like, why?

Like that just doesn't make sense. And then the following year, we're just struggling. We're not as good as we should be. And the whole year, I'm just like, I don't want to play basketball. I played that whole year. I'm like, I didn't care. It was just depressing. Like I just wasn't there. play basketball. I played that whole year. I'm like, I didn't care. It was just depressing. Like, I just wasn't there.

But it did change, you know, because before that, I used to interact with the fans and, you know, always be, you know, laughing. And, you know, from then, I just became more serious. And I think a lot of people in Philadelphia, they think I don't care and I don't you know care about basketball or because I'm not doing what they used to or you know I'm not having fun no I'm still having fun but I'm just so focused I don't have the energy to just be interacting with it I'm just trying to

do the job I'm just different I'm more serious I more mature. And I don't need to be doing that all the time. So, yeah, there's a lot to think about. But, you know, I love Philly. I've been here, you know, for 10 years. And it's looking like I'm going to be here for a long time. And actually having the opportunity to finish my career here if they let me, if they want to. What's the best cheesesteak in the city?

I don't eat cheesesteaks. You don't eat cheesesteaks? You want to know the real answer? This is the news item from this interview. The best cheesesteak is Subway cheesesteak. Subway cheesesteak? Everybody in Philadelphia who is dead is rolling over in their grave. Tony Luke's? Pat's? Gino's? I don't eat cheesesteak? Everybody in Philadelphia who is dead is rolling over in their grave. Tony Luke's?

Hats? Genos? I don't eat cheesesteaks. You know, I'm not even from Philadelphia. I'm shocked that you think the best cheesesteak is from Subway. That's an abomination. And so your dad was a colonel in the military. And I assume pretty strict.

colonel in the military and I assume pretty strict. And my understanding too is that you have a fairly disciplined personal life. You don't drink and do other stuff. Is it ever hard to fit into the culture of the league? You know, when you're playing with a guy like James Harden, who's a famous partier, you know, and you have the lifestyle that you have. Is there ever temptation? No, there's never any temptation. You know, I don't drink, I don't smoke, never in my life. So you might be around it, but I've never been like, oh, I want to try it. To me, that's actually disgusting. Like, I hate the smell. Like, I just can't stand it. And it's probably because of the way I was raised. But then again, like, to me, the way I look at life, it always goes both ways because it was a strict environment where I was raised.

But then again, some people also tend to go the other way because it was so strict and they decide to be wild because they weren't given that opportunity growing up. And just sort of in terms of how you grew up and how you developed as a person, this is sort of a more serious approach at this topic than what we were just talking about. But, you know, you lost your younger brother when he was 13, maybe you were 20 or so. How did that experience affect your thinking about life and what you want from life moving forward? It changed a lot. I mean, losing someone that young and someone that's so close to you that young, especially because, you know, I wasn't around.

I hadn't gone back to Cameroon since I got to the States. So, I hadn't really seen him in a long time. So, yeah, I mean, it was tough just going through it for my family, my parents, my mom to this day. All of us to this day, but especially for my mom, it still seemed pretty recent and pretty tough. But did it change your priorities? Yeah, yeah. I mean, family is really important. So, yeah, it made me not want to have three kids.

So, yeah, it made me not want to have three kids. Made me want to have four because there was three of us and I don't like that number three. I was actually drafted number three, but I don't like number three because there was only two of us left. So I told my wife, I'm like, you better have four kids at least because with that, two is too little and three is not, is not, I don't like that. So, and then just in life, you know, just cherishing and just including family more in everything that's being done. It's also, you know, one of those things where it's like, it exposes

the great lie of sports, where I think we all operate under this idea that it's life and death and it's not, you know? It's not. I mean, that's why I always tell people, like, even when it comes to like winning, everybody always asks me, like, how would you feel if you won a championship? I'm like, if it happens, it'd be great. I feel great. Like, I'm going to enjoy to the full extent. You're never going to hear the end of it. But then again, if it just doesn't happen, what do you want me to do after I retire? Cry about it? No.

Just move on. Live life, because, you know, life is bigger than basketball. After the break, more from Embiid on the Olympics and why he thinks the gold medal for Team USA is far from guaranteed. The talent that's on the USM, you also got to understand, like most of those guys are also older. Like LeBron now is not the LeBron that was a couple years ago. Hi, Joel. How are you? Good. How are you doing? Good.

Where are you right now? It's sort of a little echoey. Are you in your home office or something? Or where do you speak from? Yeah, I'm in my office. Just in talking to you, you're so obviously a thoughtful guy and, I know you're not going to want to hear me say this, but there's some flopping that happens or maybe taking some, you know, highly questionable fouls. And it makes me wonder about whether or not you feel like you have to become a different person when you're on the court from who you are normally. from who you are normally? No, I think it's still the same because everything that I do in life, I compete. Like, I'm just a competitor, so I want to win in everything that I do.

Do you let your kid beat you at stuff? No. We do play basketball sometimes, and he hates when I block him. You block a three-year-old? Gotta learn why they're so young. So, yeah, gotta learn. sometimes and he hits one a block and we're like, got a lot of three-year-old got a long while. They're so young. So yeah, I got to learn.

Um, and you know, you had talked about feeling, uh, more depressed this past season about being injured and, and how it was more of a mental challenge than it had been previously. And, you know, given your background, you know, growing up in a military family, a strict family, as well as the pressures that I think that athletes in particular have to not show vulnerability or to admit weakness, did that make it hard for you to come to the realization that you were depressed? I still don't know what depression is, but to this day, like, yeah, I imagine, yeah,

I felt like I was depressed, but I'll never tell you that like I was actually going through depression. I don't know what that feels like, but maybe based on some of the symptoms and, you know, the way I was feeling, that might make a little sense. I always saw, I believe in,

how can I say this? I believe in mental health, but I've never been one to admit that I might be going through something like that. You know, like you said, the background, where I'm from. So it's kind of hard to admit that something is going on and that you need to be open about it. Do you feel like you can admit it now? No. Right. And you played with J.J. Redick, of course.

What do you think about him taking the Lakers coaching job with no prior coaching experience? You know, with those type of jobs, it's tough. Like you, especially as a first-time coach, like if I was in, I don't know if that's a perfect situation and maybe he thinks that's a perfect situation, but I always feel like as a first-time coach, it's kind of like a make-or-break situation for you because if you succeed, great. You're going to be coached for years and years. But if you mishandle it, then you don't succeed. Those coaches are usually bound to be fired within a year or two

if you don't accomplish anything. You could find yourself in a situation where it's like, he didn't do a good job, you know, in that situation. Why should we hire him? So, I mean, I love him for him. I'm happy for him. You know, he's always wanted to be a coach, but that's a tough job.

Just to go back to the Olympics, other countries are better than ever at basketball. They have more NBA players on their teams than they did in the past. Do you have any doubt about who's going to win the gold medal? I mean, you look at the time that the U.S. has, but I mean, there's also equal time on other teams and the talent that's on the U.S.M, you also got to understand, like most of those guys are also older. Like LeBron now is not the LeBron that was a couple years ago. So it's a big difference. So the name might be there, but everybody was a Bouddhossel talent.

And you can see for yourself, like the athletic LeBron and the dominant that he was a couple of years ago is not the same that he is now. So yeah, I mean, I think people get fooled by the names on paper, but yeah, those names are built throughout their career and now they're older, so they're not what they used to be. You know, I just teed you up to say the U.S. is going to kick everyone's ass. Instead, you gave an even-handed, nuanced answer. I mean, that's the goal.

And you also got to understand, like, a lot of us haven't played with each other, so that's going to be a brand new start. And you got to learn each other and, you know, find the best way to play together. Before we go, I just wanted to say that you know that the sports media hot take machine is going to go into overdrive because you said that, you know, if it hadn't been for injuries, you'd be in the greatest of all time conversation. That's okay. Because that's the truth. You think about what I've been able to accomplish

and what has been taken away because of injuries. Like, you know, there's a lot of what-ifs, but then again, you can make the case of being up there. You know, you also, in the context of your younger brother, talked about your understanding that life is bigger than basketball. At the end of the day, the wins and losses are, like, they're actually not the most important thing.

Do you think there's any way in which understanding that inhibits your own fire or will to win? Like, if you actually know that winning is not the most important thing, does that in any way hold you back? No, because if it held me back, I would have never picked the one injuries. No, I live in the present, and the present means any chance I don't get, go after it as far as winning. But then also understanding that when I'm done, I should not have any regrets.

Joel, thank you for taking all the time to talk with me and good luck at the Olympics. Thank you. Appreciate you. That's Joel Embiid. The Olympics kick off Friday. This conversation was produced by Seth Kelly. It was edited by Annabelle Bacon, mixing by Efim Shapiro. Original music by Dan Powell and Marion Lozano. Photography by Philip Montgomery. Our senior booker is Priya Matthew, and our producer is Wyatt Orme. Our executive producer is Alison Benedict.

Special thanks to Naila Orr, Rory Walsh, Renan Barelli, Jeffrey Miranda, Maddy Maciello, Jake Silverstein, Paula Schumann, and Sam Dolnick. If you like what you're hearing, follow or subscribe to The Interview wherever you get your podcasts. And to read or listen to any of our conversations, you can always go to nytimes.com slash theinterview. Email us anytime at theinterview at nytimes.com slash the interview. Email us anytime at theinterviewatnytimes.com. Next week, Lulu speaks with Melinda French-Gates about life after divorce and her work in

philanthropy. For me personally, I don't need my name on the side of a building in perpetuity. That's not what I'm about. I'm about how do I move society forward for the betterment of everybody? And so that, you know, my grandchildren and my grandchildren's grandchildren get to live in an even better world than I do now. I'm David Marchese, and this is The Interview from The New York Times. Thank you.