The Daily - 'The Interview': Serena Williams’s Next Challenge? The Rest of Her Life.

Episode Date: June 15, 2024

The greatest women’s tennis player of all time is trying to find her new normal in retirement.

From The New York Times, this is The Interview. I'm David Marchese. A lot of people wind their way into middle age, having achieved some measure of career success, only to ask themselves, well, now what? And apparently this happens even if you're Serena Williams. Serena, who's now 42 years old, retired from competitive tennis a little under two years ago.

She'd won 23 Grand Slams, more than any woman in the open era, and just one shy of the all-time record. Her level of fame and achievement, both on and off the court, broke boundaries for Black women and women athletes in general. She is, by just about any account, the best ever at what she did. Since she retired, Williams has directed that drive at some new projects. She's got a venture capital fund and just launched a makeup line. And she and her husband, Reddit co-founder Alexis Ohanian, have two small girls. So it's not exactly like she's been idle. But the tennis court still calls.

She's gone back to it, in a way, with a new eight-part documentary called In the Arena, Serena Williams, which will stream on ESPN Plus next month. And she told me that revisiting her career through the series has been the first chance she's had to sit back and take in everything she accomplished. Here's my conversation with Serena Williams. Here's my conversation with Serena Williams. So you've been retired from tennis for, it's not even two full years.

And one thing that I was thinking about in watching the documentary was really the kind of amazing competitive spirit that you had. And I'm curious about where that competitive spirit goes or how it changes once you're no longer playing sports. You know, you're doing the different projects, right? You've got the Venture Capital Fund, the makeup line. I think you've written a children's book. Did you feel like you, like, does it go away the next day or did you feel like you had to find a new outlet for it? For me, it was a necessary thing. I needed to not be done and sit down and wake up and be like, oh my God, what just happened? For me, it was like, thank goodness that I did something that maybe anyone would say was too fast and not maybe.

It was definitely too fast to just throw myself full heart, full body into everything. But that's kind of what I needed to do to survive, so to say, after I've been playing tennis for all my life. I think it would have been really hard. So I just kind of did all that. And when you say something you sort of needed to survive, you mean because you were sort of worried or anxious about the prospect of not having new challenges once tennis was done? No, it wasn't about not having new challenges. I think it was more around the fact of like, listen, you've been doing this since you've been born. Do you even know how to do anything else? My whole mission in life was

playing tennis, waking up every day. What are you doing today? Practice. What are you going to do? Train. And then if you get injured, then you're like, what are you doing today? Rehab, you know, so I can't get back to practice. And that had been my life for over 40 years. And so it was like, you don't go from literally a 40-year career to just going, okay, what

are you doing today? Nothing.? Nothing. I don't know. So I kind of needed to just, I think all this was subconscious too. I obviously wasn't doing this on purpose, but I think I subconsciously just kind of overlapped. So when my career did end, literally the next day I had a huge team meeting for Serena Ventures. We were talking about companies. I had fully taken over. And it was just like all hands, all me on deck. And I was on every single meeting. I was in every founder meeting.

I was in everything. And again, I think it was too much, but I think that was my way of coping because I couldn't go from having purpose for all my life to having no purpose. Does the having purpose aspect of things also include like the scheduling and how you're spending your time? Like, did you want to maintain kind of a strict or rigorous schedule for yourself? You know what? No, I didn't know that that's what I was doing. For the record, I didn't realize that. But now I'm like wanting to figure out a way to take a break, which I probably should have done earlier.

But I don't know if I would have mentally survived that because of my personality. I probably would have been back on the tennis court playing tennis. But yeah, now I'm just like, I haven't stopped in my whole life. I've been going nonstop for my entire life. So I kind of need a breather. I need to, I really desperately need a breather. So I'm trying to navigate all that now. Your kids are still pretty young, right?

I have two girls. One is eight months and one is six years old. And is there a particular understanding that you want your daughters to have about what you accomplished in tennis? accomplished in tennis? It's tricky, right? Because it's like I want them to understand, but at the same time, that'll come with time. So I'm not really too... Olympia told me the other day, you're famous. And I'm like, not really. I'm just your mom. So I don't know. I just feel like when the time comes and honestly, when it's settled in for me too, I know that sounds really crazy, but when it's all settled in for me, I'll definitely have that conversation with them and I'll let them know like, you know, potentially the important, you know, the, I don't want to be too presumptuous, but the impact I had, I should say, the impact that I have had on sport and beyond.

You know, your dad famously saw something in you and in Venus and then worked so hard to help you guys achieve that. And he saw something in you when you guys were real little. And I wonder, do you feel like you see something in your daughters in the way that your dad saw something in you? I don't know. That's a really good question. I feel like, I don't know. I always look at my dad and I think, how were you able to do that? Because I'm like, oh, they're so cute. I just want them to relax and I don't want to over push them. But I would be devastated if I wasn't pushed because I wouldn't, we wouldn't be having this interview and there would never have been a Serena Williams.

So I feel so fortunate that I had an opportunity to have that extra oomph, you know what I mean? fortunate that I had an opportunity to have that extra, you know what I mean? But for whatever reason, I'm having a hard time connecting to like that extra push. And that's something that I've been trying to figure out myself is like how to get that extra motivation to my daughters, because it's definitely worth it. I can confirm from experience. It worked out pretty well for you. I can confirm from experience. It worked out pretty well for you. It worked out well.

But what do I see? I don't know. I think my oldest, I mean, the eight-month-old is so tiny. But I think Olympia is such a bright light. And she's so athletic to a point where it's just not even humanly possible. And even Venus, she was like, that kid has more talent than you and I combined. And she's not lying. So I can see how my dad may have seen some potential in us. Yeah. So for me, I'm just trying to figure out a way how to harness all that and just do that. I'm like, I already told my dad, maybe you have to coach her because I'm too nice.

Yeah. You're too soft. I'm too soft. Yeah, there you go. You know, I can imagine it's sort of an interesting thing that a lot of parents have to think about. It's like you do the hard work and push yourself on some level, maybe so that your kids don't have to do the hard work. But then you also want them to achieve. You don't want them to not reach their potential. And like I said, I know from experience, it was definitely worth it. I can confirm that. So for me, it's like trying to get into a place where I do feel comfortable saying like, okay, girls, we're going to do this every day. But it also takes a lot of commitment from the parent. And that's why I said now I have so much respect for my mom and my dad

because I was like, okay, Olympia, we're going to play tennis every Wednesday. And then I said now I have so much respect for my mom and my dad because I was like, okay, Olympia, we're going to play tennis every Wednesday. And then I'm now I'm like, uh. And do you ever talk with Venus about why she still plays? Like, do you understand why she's still out there? Venus loves tennis. And I think the question will be best answered from her. I do not want to speak for her, but I do know that that's something that, I mean, we both love tennis. And I think the question will be best answered from her. I do not want to speak for her, but I do know that that's something that, I mean, we both love tennis. Honestly, I feel like I would still be playing if I didn't have to stop and have a family. Can I ask you a slightly tennis nerdy question?

Oh, for sure. In the documentary, I think it's, you're talking and I think it's, you know, you're reminiscing about after winning your first slam. And you say that after that, you really had a bullseye on your back, that the other players on tour were really like, we got to beat the Williams sisters. What did you think that was about back then? And is your perspective on it now different?

I definitely had a red X on me and it was hard. It was, you know, people assume that you're not friendly and that's usually not the case. You're just there to win. And, you know, people don't really want to talk to winners in a single sport to be, you know, it's like the birds of a feather flock together and there's only one winner. And so who are you going to flock with? And if I were playing soccer, it'd be a completely different situation because you have a team of players. I had my mom and my dad and, you know, we kept ourselves really close because we had to. But yeah, I do feel like it shook the world. I mean, come on. Like a Black girl wins a Grand Slam at 17 years old. And she's from Compton.

If you're not going to take notice, the world took notice of it. So obviously they took notice. And so it had been a dominated sport by, you know, Caucasians. So it was like, whoa, we're having a change in our sport. We don't like that. This isn't normal. Let's not let her win. And so that's quite frankly what it was.

And do you find any of the same racial dynamics in play? No, I didn't say race. I didn't say that it was racial. I just said that, to be clear, I said that it was a change. I just said that, to be clear, I said that it was a change. And just like anything, you're going to notice if it was an Asian person winning everything when there was only white people winning before, right? So I happen to be Black, and it happened to be me, and hasn't happened since the 50s. So obviously it's going to take note. And obviously it was like, well, we're not used to this. So we want to make sure that we make our comeback too.

This is a semi-random question. Did you see Challengers? That is so random. And yes, I did see Challengers. Thoughts? I thought it was good. I wanted there to be more of an ending. I was like, I told Zendaya, I was like, listen, is there more?

Like, I want more. Did they win? I mean, I don't want to give away the ending. But yeah, I thought it was quite interesting. Did you see it? I did see it, yeah. What did you think of it? I liked it.

You know, I just kept wondering about the accuracy of the tennis in it. I think they did really good, actually. I think for the most part, I thought the tennis was very well done. Yeah. And on any level, did those sort of interpersonal rivalries and dynamics ring true for you? So, yeah, I thought it was pretty accurate, too, about, you know, the tennis player and the relationship that they had. I felt like sometimes you can become really connected to whoever you're with, whether that's a friend, a coach, or codependent, is a better word. Like, I feel like I was codependent with Venus. I actually felt like there was so much accuracy in there about things that we don't think about as tennis players or even talk about as tennis players.

There's definitely a lot of codependency, I feel. I don't know. It could go both ways. You could also be a loner in tennis. So I don't know. I don't know. Listen, I like the movie. That's all I can say.

But everyone is allowed to have their own opinion. Yeah. You know, I also saw this sort of news come out of the Trump trial, that you were in the president's contacts. You guys would talk to each other? I mean, is this what this interview is about? Oh, so when somebody has a chance to talk to a president, I'm curious what they talk to a president about. I talk to a lot of presidents.

I spoke to Barack. I spoke to Clintons. I spoke to every president since I've been alive, including Ronald Reagan. I'll have you know. Oh, really? What do you think they're looking for in talking to you? What do they want to know? I don't know.

I'm not going to go there. Fair enough. I don't know. I'm not going to go there. Fair enough. You talked a little bit about the idea of your, for lack of a better term, legacy and what you achieved. And it does really seem like in the last few years, there has been this explosion of interest in women's sports. And I think it's inarguable that you were a big part of that. Like, do you feel some sense of responsibility for the position women's sports is in now? No, I would feel that way if it were tennis. And I know it's not linear, but I don't want to be presumptuous. Listen, these women are working so hard at what they do. And, you know, whether it's Angel Reese or Caitlin Clark, they deserve the attention that they're starting to get.

And I wasn't there. I was doing my own different thing in tennis, right? So I can't sit here and say that it's because of me that women's sport is doing so good. Like, that's just not, first of all, that's not me. And I don't know if that would be a hundred percent accurate. Women's sports athletes have been great for decades and way before me. I mean, Chris Everett was great and Martina Navratilova was great. And maybe it's just the buildup of all that decades and decades of greatness. And then people finally catching on that women are awesome and amazing and they could just kick butt in sport too. And so I don't know, maybe it's just a full compilation of it all. And, you know, I am always curious with athletes about the memories that they have from their careers. And do you find that you, I don't know how much you sit back and think about this kind

of stuff, but if you do, does your mind go to the big wins or the losses? I'm the kind of person that'd be like, oh, I hate it that I lost that. I try to forget my losses, to be honest. You know what? I actually always refuse to go down memory lane during my career because I always said, that's when you get satisfied and that's how you got to grow and not be better. Because if I'm like looking at me and I'm one like 18 grand slams, I'll be like, oh my God, that's amazing. Why am I doing this? And so I didn't want to kind of have that mindset. So I kind of never really looked back and with everything going on with Serena and Lirian, I have an opportunity to look back and say, wow, this has been really, really cool and really interesting. Like to kind of remember that,

ah, it felt good. You know, it's being the subject of a documentary is obviously something that most people don't get to experience, you know, just seeing sort of your life story played back to you in a narrative fashion. What is that experience like and what were some of the interesting nuances of seeing how someone else like understands what the Serena Williams story is? I am always amazed at people and the excitement they have for what I've done. I'm just like, I'm just a normal person, you know? Like I've been so in a box of just like staying focused and just like, you know, just like, I don't know, just doing the best that I could on that day

and just that's all I could do. So now just having an opportunity to hear people talk, you know, about it almost gets me super emotional. And it's just like, wow, I just, honestly, I just didn't know. I just didn't know. Tell me more about that because you were like in it, so you couldn't see outside of it or? Yeah. I mean, obviously I knew, but it's also just, I'm so in it. I would literally win Wimbledon and I would go back the next day and tell not even the next day. I remember having a conversation with my dad being like, OK, dad, so that was great. But I really want to focus on I know I can win the Open.

And it's just like I literally never really took too much time to like settle in and my and my wins. It took too much time to settle in and my wins. And I just was always looking for the next quote-unquote high, for lack of a better word. And it was always more competition? It was always the next win. Do you still find yourself looking for the next quote-unquote high? I have so much more excitement now with just relaxing. And this has been a process of trying to find my new normal. And now I'm like getting to a point where my day to day ends at 12 and I'm like, I have a massage at 1.30. And it's just like, it's kind of nice to, you know, have an opportunity to just take a deep breath in and a deep breath out, because I've never had that.

And I've always gone from the next thing, you know? So I'm trying to enjoy this. After the break, I call Serena back to talk tennis rivalries and more about what she's looking for in this next era of her life. I have images of me in a stroller on a tennis court, so it's literally my entire life I've been about one thing, so I don't know anything else. Hi, Serena. How are you?

I'm good. How are you, David? I'm good. I'm good. Thank you for taking the time again. I appreciate it. No worry. You know, one thing that... One second.

What did you say, Olympia? I'll think about it, but yes. Was that Olympia? Sorry, can you hear me? I'm just with my daughter. That's okay. What are you guys doing? I'm just with her today because she's out of school. Summertime, yeah. Yeah.

Sorry, but... Well, you know, speaking of Olympia, one of the things that you and I had talked about in our first call that I thought was really interesting was sort of the push and pull and maybe some uncertainty you felt about knowing how much to try and put your child on a path towards greatness and how much to push them in the way that your dad pushed you and your sister. And one thing that I thought more about was, like, what are your husband's thoughts about that? I mean, I assume he wasn't put on a path to excellence in quite the same way as you were. So does he have the same uncertainty? Like, do you guys find you're on the same? Do you both feel the uncertainty about

that subject? I'm going to call. I need one minute, okay? I'm just on a call, okay? Thank you. Sorry. I'm so sorry. That's totally okay. yeah we it's hard i actually think it's easier for my husband so i think it's easier for him to be like okay let's go here go every week or whatever and just be more of a like motivator than i am but i'm still trying to find that balance because i tell you and i always say like i wouldn't trade anything that i've done for the world so why in the world am I not pushing my daughter a little bit more so I was just trying to figure out my balance of like pushing versus over pushing and I don't think I think the way my dad did it was good but I just need to kind of

get that headspace sooner than later you know do you find that Olympia responds to being pushed? I don't know. I don't, to be perfectly honest, I don't think I even pushed her enough to see if she's responded, which is disastrous, you know? I'm like, come on, this is crazy. Do better, Serena. So I don't even know the answer to that.

Yeah. And, you know, something else that was interesting to me was that you had said that you felt like you were codependent with Venus when you guys were on tour together. Can you tell me more about what you meant by that? Because codependency usually has a negative connotation, but my hunch is that you didn't mean that negatively. I don't think so. Oh, so tell me about it. I don't think so. I think it's good. Like, I mean, codependent is great in some instances, at least in the instance that I

meant it because we depended on each other. We motivated each other. And I think I think I can see where it could be a negative connotation, but I also think it'd be a positive thing. Like, no one could have pushed me if it wasn't for her, I wouldn't have been pushed so far. She literally pushed me to train harder and to be on the court more than anybody else and to work harder. And that's because we depended on each other to do that and to motivate each other. So it's definitely more positive. I'm glad you saw that it could have been more positive than negative. So thanks for asking me to clarify that. But yeah, I think that's a positive thing. You know, last time I asked you a sort of insidery tennis question, and I want to ask you another one. And it's, this is just something I was always personally curious about. So I think Sharapova beat you twice pretty early on in your

career. Who? Sharapova. Oh, okay. And then you never lost to her again. I think you beat her something like 18 times in a row after that. Did you just decide like this person is never beating me again? Oh, man, you didn't see it? I think that's episode three. I don't want to give it all away. Oh, they only showed me the first two. Oh, my God. I'm so sad. You have to see the rest. It's in there. It's definitely in there. All right. So a teaser. A teaser. It's a teaser. You got to wait for it. It's actually really good. But it is. There was a reason why I didn't lose to her. And I explained that. So, you know, that's talking about a bunch of wins that you had. And I know you don't like to talk about losses. Another thing I'm curious about. Okay, so you were so dominant for so long

in Grand Slam finals. And then I think you went 0 for the last four. Did that have to do with the pressure of trying to catch Margaret Court's Grand Slam record? I think so. I think it was pressure and pressure I put on myself. I should have won at least two or three of those. There's definitely one I feel lost for sure, which I don't think even looking back, I could have won one, at least one of them, but definitely one, two, or I don't remember the third one, definitely at least two of them I could have won. And, you know, it was just too much pressure I put on myself and I couldn't relax. I just couldn't relax and be able to just, just say, you know, and just breathe. And that sucks. Honestly, it does.

But nothing I can do about it now. It's just not going to change anything, except for how I feel ultimately. How often do you think about not getting 24? Never, actually. Oh, good. I never do, which is good, right? I thought it was much worse than that.

But I never do because i had such an amazing career and quite frankly i hope i honestly i should have had 30 i feel like i could have had way more than 24 you know you posted on social media the other day a little cryptically it wasn't cryptic then you were ready to hit balls again what were you referring to i literally am ready to hit balls like i haven't hit in a long time. It's my life. And I love it. And I miss it.

I miss it so much. I did learn maybe I shouldn't post it on Twitter because people think I'm coming back. And I'm like, no. I literally just want to hit some balls. Yeah. What are you and Olympia going to do today, considering she's off school? What's the plan? Well, we're just hanging out all day. And I'm going to play Roblox with her later. We're going to do today considering she's off school what's the plan um well we're just hanging out

all day and i'm going to play roblox with her later we're going to do that we had a pedicure this morning and so we're just having a girl's day retirement sounds good it it is it's fun it's different it's a life i've never experienced you have to understand for um my entire life since i was since i can remember i was images of me in a stroller on the tennis court so it's literally my entire life i've been about one thing so i don't know anything else you know and so this is all new to me it's like a whole new career and it's cool it's i have to tell you it's really cool and of course i prefer playing tennis but it's but you know that's because i've done it my whole And of course I prefer playing tennis, but it's, but you know,

that's because I've done it my whole life. Of course you prefer doing something that you've done since you could walk, you know, like that's kind of rare in a career. Like usually people work to get a career, but I've been doing this since I could walk. So definitely a different feeling. And I think that's a natural curve that I just have to, you know, learn. You know, it sounds like you really miss tennis.

Yeah, I do. And I like that I miss tennis. I would hate to be like, oh, I hated that so much. And like, that would be such an awful, like, sad thing for me because tennis meant so much to me. And I didn't realize it meant that much to me, to be honest. And I didn't realize that I would have such an amazing relationship with tennis after it was all said and done. And I love that. I'm really

happy that I have that relationship. It's like a goodness. It's like nostalgia. But nostalgia is positive. I love that. That's Serena Williams. This conversation was produced by Wyatt Orme.

It was edited by Annabelle Bacon. Mixing by Afim Shapiro. Original music by Dan Powell and Marion Lozano. Photography by Philip Montgomery. Our senior booker is Priya Matthew, and our senior producer is Seth Kelly. Our executive producer is Alison Benedict. Special thanks to Rory Walsh, Renan Barelli, Maddy Macielo, Jake Silverstein, Paula Schumann, and Sam Dolnick. If you like what you're hearing, follow or subscribe to The Interview wherever you get your podcasts. And to read or listen

to any of our conversations, you can always go to nytimes.com slash theinterview. Next week, Lulu Garcia Navarro talks with Michigan Governor Gretchen Whitmer. I think you can't win an election in Michigan by double digits if you're not also drawing over people who are not traditional Democrats. And I'm proud of that. I'm David Marchese, and this is The Interview from The New York Times.