The Daily - The Mayor of Minneapolis

Episode Date: June 3, 2020

As nationwide protests about the death of George Floyd enter a second week, we speak with the leader of the city where they began. Guest: Mayor Jacob Frey of Minneapolis. For more information on today’s episode, visit nytimes.com/thedaily Background reading: Mr. Frey came into office in 2018 on promises to fix the broken relationship between the community and law enforcement in the wake of two fatal police shootings. This is what he has done in the years since.

From The New York Times, I'm Michael Barbaro. This is The Daily. Today. As nationwide protests over the death of George Floyd enter a second week, a conversation with the leader of the city where it all began, Mayor Jacob Fry of Minneapolis. It's Wednesday, June 3rd.

Hello, this is Jacob Fry. Mr. Mayor, it's Michael Barbaro. Hi, Michael. Thanks for having me. Thank you very much for making time for us because we know what an urgent time it is in your city and we really appreciate it. You got it. So just to start, Mayor Fry, I want to go back to the moment when you learned about the death of George Floyd. And I wonder if you could describe that moment from your perspective, and then tell me whether in that moment you could have imagined that it would lead us to

where we are right now. When I first heard about the murder of George Floyd, I didn't know all of the facts. I received a call from our chief saying that there was an interaction with a black man and that black man had then been hospitalized. I didn't know yet whether he had died. I didn't know the nature of the interaction. And then subsequently, of course, we learned more information. I learned that the officer-involved incident resulted in George Floyd dying. I then saw the video, which was horrid. To see our white police officer press his knee into the neck of a black man who was unarmed and handcuffed for a period of eight minutes straight. There is nothing more disgusting that I have ever seen in my life. It was as clear as day to me that the normal protocols and procedures that are baked into the walls and mortar of city hall that tell you not to do something, not to speak out, not to say

something was wrong because of legal reasons and all sorts of other issues that I just had to throw those away. And so around 6.30 in the morning, as soon as the press was up and available, and we had at least collected the preliminary information about what happened, we held a press conference. And my sole direction was that let's just be honest. just be honest. And, you know, since that moment, our entire city has been reeling. Angry, sad, every single negative emotion that you can think, that's where our city has been, and I've been with our city and feeling it. You know, I asked you whether you could have imagined this response, and here's why I'm asking that. When the protests broke out, the head of the Minneapolis NAACP, Leslie Redmond,

said this, quote, what you're witnessing in Minnesota is something that's been a long time coming. I can't tell you how many governors I've sat down with, how many mayors we've sat down with, and we've warned them that if you keep murdering Black people, the city will burn. We have stopped the city from burning numerous times,

and we are not responsible for it burning now. So is the head of the NAACP in your state right? I mean, were you warned? And was this inevitable? The head of the NAACP could not be more correct. This is not just about the eight minutes of time where our officer had his knee on George Floyd's neck. This is about the previous 400 years. This is about 100 years worth of intentional segregation and institutionalized racism. This is about repeated instances of officer mistreatment over decades. And the only reason it's coming out more often now is that it's recorded on video. And so no, this is not just about the eight minutes of this one instance. This has been a long time coming in many ways, and it's tragic, and all we can hope for now is that it leads to clear change. It sounds like you could imagine everything that has happened happening the way you're talking right now.

That's right. the way you're talking right now. That's right. But I guess what I'm getting at is, were you ever told by a black leader in Minneapolis that if circumstances did not change, there will be a crisis? There will be something like what we have just seen? I'm asking you if you were given a warning of that kind.

I'm sure there have been numerous warnings over the past several years and decades, yes. I mean, if you're asking, has anybody ever said that? The answer is they have said that. I have heard it. Does that make the burning of the city right? No, it doesn't. Mr. Mayor, Tuesday's episode of our show, The Daily, was about the history of the Minneapolis Police Department and why it has been so difficult for mayors, for police chiefs to change the culture and reprimand officers who commit acts of misconduct. And specifically in your city, we focus on the power of the police union to set the terms. And even more specifically, the head of your police union who has resisted change

and pretty successfully prevented a lot of it. Has that been your experience? Yes. The elephant in the room with regard to police reform is the police union. The elephant in the room with regard to making the changes necessary to combat the institutionalized racism and have a full-on culture shift is the police union, the contract associated with that union, and then the arbitration that ultimately is necessary. It sets up a system where we have difficulty both disciplining and terminating officers who have done wrong. And so if you want to see a full-on culture shift, there's a couple things. It's get new officers in that embody the vision of our very forward-thinking and very procedurally justice-oriented

Chief Arredondo, and get officers out who do not embody that vision. Both of those things need to happen. Do you currently have the power to do that? To bring in new officers who do this job differently and get rid of cops who are problematic? We have the ability to bring in new officers who do the work differently. the ability to bring in new officers who do the work differently. In fact, Chief Arredondo personally interviews every new cadet that comes in to make sure they have the right mentality, that procedural justice is instilled from the very beginning, and that they have a compassionate approach. We do not have the ability to get rid of many of these officers that we know have done wrong in the past

due to issues with both the contract and the arbitration associated with the union. And, you know, I mean, let me tell you about who our chief is. Chief Arredondo grew up on the south side. You know, he's the kind of beat cop that like knows every person on the street and knows who their parents are. I mean, that is the way that policing ultimately should be done. He even sued our police department for racial discrimination and won. Right. And now he's our chief and he is a person of the utmost integrity. And I've seen him make very quick and decisive decisions to terminate or discipline officers who have had wrongful conduct. But I've also seen so many instances where we are hamstrung. We're hamstrung by the architecture of this system

that prevents change and protects officers from being held accountable. And if we really want to see the massive culture shift that is essential. We need to have that ability. And right now, in many instances, the truth is we don't. I think it may surprise listeners to hear that the mayor of a city, the executive of Minneapolis, can't get rid of a cop who has been credibly accused of misconduct. It may be a surprise, but it's oftentimes the truth. I mean, you're talking about the need for pretty profound structural change here.

And you're the mayor, right? I mean, if electing Democratic leadership committed to progressive policies and to reform is not enough to affect structural change, then what else would you expect people to do but take to the streets to represent themselves in another way? Right? Because the vote, the election of you, didn't do it. I'm not the first elected mayor that has been for structural reform in the police department. I would say the first elected mayor that has been for structural reform in the police department.

I would say the previous three mayors, from Sharon Seals Belton to R.T. Ryback to Betsy Hodges, all wanted to see reform within the police department. But they, like I, have encountered this one nearly impenetrable barrier, which is the union contract and the way it's set up. There are other forms of change that can occur outside the context of the police union contract, and they need to be made. But to tackle the full ball of wax, we can't just ignore that elephant in the room. So would you hope that that is an outcome of all of this major changes to that union contract? I would. I mean, all of the anger you've seen over the last week has shown how much urgency there is. I mean, when, when we talk about getting to a point of peace, we're not asking for patience.

This is something that needs to happen. And yes, it has been a long time coming. And so, if nothing else, let's channel this anger to get to a result that leads to a shift in policing. We'll be right back. I want to talk to you about where we are in these protests. I mean, you're expressing a lot of understanding for the protests and for the protesters. And as you said, you've been doing that pretty much from the moment the video of George Floyd's death was released. You've been doing that pretty much from the moment the video of George Floyd's death was released. But how did you feel as you verbalized sympathy with these protesters and then some of them turned violent? Well, let me be clear. There's a difference between protesting and looting.

I am for the peaceful protest. I am for an expression of First Amendment rights. for the peaceful protest. I am for an expression of First Amendment rights, but those expression of First Amendment rights stop when you talk about endangering our city and burning down what for generations people had built up. The burning of a black business, which has for decades been pillars of community, does not help to create the change we need to see in our police department in any way, shape, or form. The ransacking of a Latino restaurant doesn't somehow create the change in the police department or push back on structural racism in any way, shape, or form. Voicing your First Amendment rights and peacefully protesting, yes, absolutely. But when it shifted to violence, that's a shift that I don't believe any of us should tolerate. And do you feel that you are responsible in any way for that shift? I mean, was there a decision, was there a set of decisions

you made that you now feel were the wrong ones that may have allowed some of these peaceful protests to turn into looting, burning? Every single day, I feel the weight of responsibility on my chest. I am the mayor. And at the end of the day, yes, I'm a responsible party. I'm sure in the weeks and months from now, all of us will analyze the occurrences that happen and the decisions were made again and again and again. And I'm certain that there are things that I will look back on that I should have done differently. Right now, as our city is still reeling from the murder and the subsequent looting, I can't tell you with certainty, but I think clearly there'll be a lot of analysis that will, that will come in the weeks and months ahead. I'm mindful that you face. I think, let me be clear. Let me, you know, I,

I think, I think, I think when I came out right at the beginning and said, this was wrong, it was unacceptable. It was a heinous murder. That was the right decision. When the chief and I decided to immediately terminate the four officers that were involved, that was the right decision. When I asked for the charging of Officer Chauvin, that was the right decision. And when we saw looting throughout our city and we spoke out very clearly to say this is wrong and it needs to stop immediately that was the right decision too you know but like you know i wouldn't wish on anyone to be in the rooms that i've been in over the last week to make the decisions that i've had to make in many instances where there's no chance of a positive outcome no matter what you choose. You are choosing between two negative outcomes no matter what.

You know, that's tough. What are those outcomes, just to be clear? Well, for instance, on Wednesday, I got a call from our chief of police that said, he said, the target is being looted. Our police officers are not going to have the numbers or the resources to combat what is likely to come. It wasn't a matter of planning or strategy, but simple math. but simple math and having to choose between allocating officers to protect a precinct or escort firefighters that needed to put out fires or prevent businesses from getting looted. When you have to choose between options like that, that is a fail, fail, fail decision. No matter what you choose, there are at least a couple negative outcomes. And then the problem is even more compounded by the fact that the

body of the Minneapolis Police Department that we were counting on to keep people safe through the looting was the entity that originally caused this problem. And that makes the issue even more difficult. Mr. Mayor, at a certain point, your governor, Tim Walz, called in the state's National Guard, but he declined to accept help from the U.S. military when it was offered. Do you think that was a mistake given how violent the protests became?

No, I think our governor made the right decision there. Why? This was a guard-sized crisis and demanded a guard-sized response. As became very clear, there was no possible way that our police department was going to be able to handle this on their own. And until we saw the full mobilization of the National Guard, we were having issues. After that full mobilization took place, we were able to quell the looting. We were able to stop the violence and the burning. And so, no, I think it was the right decision to mobilize the full force of the National Guard. And I also wanted to make sure that that leadership in mobilization came from the state, not the president.

Is there something about the idea of the federal government getting involved that you object to? Well, just look at the rhetoric that's coming from the president. I mean, he's talking about shooting people. I mean, the whole purpose of the National Guard coming in is to create peace, not diminish it. The whole point of creating a sense of order is to stop the looting of businesses, not having communities overridden with militia. There is a dramatically different philosophy that the president has than ours here in Minnesota. You've talked about the difference between the looters and the peaceful protesters, and I want to talk for a moment about who is actually in the streets of your city.

Yes. This is a quote from you on Saturday when you spoke about the violence and some of these buildings that were burning. You said, we've seen long-term institutional businesses overridden. We've seen community institutions set on fire. And I want to be very, very clear. The people that are doing this are not Minneapolis residents. Is that still your understanding? I think that people who are doing the looting, in many cases, were not from this state and not from this city.

And sadly, as it turns out, others were. I mean, Governor Walz, he initially said something quite similar. And his language was, this is outsiders. This is not Minnesotans. And then later on, he went back and said, you know what? That may have been wishful thinking on my part. I hoped it was outsiders. Do you think you hoped it was outsiders too? Yeah, I think that's a fair point. I think we all, to use Governor Walz's quote, got a little bit out over our skis.

Is it the case that there were looters coming from outside of our city to burn buildings down? Yes. Is it also true that some of our own community members were involved? Yes. It's tragic. This may seem like a kind of unusual question, but at the end of the day, why does it matter to you, to Governor Walz, if the people doing this are outsiders? If Americans are angry, does it matter whether or not they're from Minneapolis or Minnesota? It's just so incomprehensible to consider burning down your own block. I mean, people generally have an affinity to the city in which they grew up or the city where they live.

You know the guy who operates the corner store. You have the local barbershop that you go to on a monthly basis. To even consider negatively impacting those businesses, those institutions, those community centers and grocery stores, I can't even begin to understand it. Mr. Mayor, I'm curious about something, and up front I want to acknowledge that it may not be, in your mind, the fairest question. A police killing, the death of George Floyd in your city by your employees, has by this point led to protests across the United States. These extraordinary expressions of anguish and sadness and violence.

I mean, stores and businesses have been broken into and ransacked from Minneapolis to Los Angeles to New York. I mean, there's quite literally a fire raging across the country, and your city was the original spark. Do you feel any responsibility for that? Every single second of every single day. I feel that responsibility as mayor of the city where this occurred. Yeah, this has been, I mean, look, this is not about me.

This is not about me. about me. This is not about me. I mean, but to say this has been one of the worst weeks in our city's history would be a massive understatement. And to say that this has been the worst week of my life would be accurate. How do you think that this ends? And how do you hope that this ends and how do you hope that this ends if there's a moral ending to what's happened it can only end in one way which is first justice for george floyd in the form of a full charge and then conviction. But moreover, it needs to end in true change to how police departments across the country function, to how we're able to make decisions, issue discipline and terminations, able to make decisions, issue discipline and terminations as to how we can create these police departments that truly protect and serve community. I mean, that's one version of how this ends. But given that the president is getting more and more involved, given that he's calling

on states to crack down for a more militarized response? Are you afraid that there is a version of this that ends with further division between Black communities and the police and the government? Yes, that scares the hell out of me. We cannot go down that path. What we cannot allow is for the vision and mentality of Donald Trump to come into our city in the form of a militaristic rule. I mean, the implications are more scary than I can even possibly imagine. In Minneapolis, and speaking only for Minneapolis, there's absolutely no need for any further force.

So you think it's possible to stop the violence, stop the looting, allow the peaceful protest to continue, and not make worse in the process the very problem that started all of this, which is excessive policing in Minneapolis? I mean, that is the balance that everybody's trying to deal with right now. And if you're saying that it's an easy balance with simple decisions, it is not. I mean, what you have to, though, remember is where this all began. Where it began was the murder of an unarmed, handcuffed black man. George Floyd was on the ground. He had his hands behind his back. He was calling out for help. He was calling for his mother. And that's what led to the subsequent issues. So, you know, yes, of course, the balance that you discussed needs to be struck, but there is no balance in the murder that started all this.

Mr. Mayor, I really want to thank you, and I want to wish you the best of luck for your city. We appreciate your time. Thank you, Michael. I appreciate you. On Tuesday, dozens of military vehicles began patrolling and blocking the streets of Washington as President Trump appeared to make good on his threat to use the military to crack down on violence and looting there. We'll be right back. Here's what else you need to know today. Curfews fell on dozens of cities across the country on Tuesday night as officials tried to discourage the kind of nightly violence and looting that has occurred throughout the past week. And congressional

Democrats and Republicans condemned the decision to violently remove peaceful demonstrators from a park across from the White House on Monday night so that President Trump could pose for photos in front of a church there. After the president's reality show ended last night, while the nation nervously watched the chaos that engulfs us, President Trump probably laid in bed, pleased with himself for descending another rung on the dictatorial ladder. The Times reported that the order to clear the park came from Attorney General Bill Barr, who accompanied Trump to the church.

Finally, Congressman Steve King of Iowa, a nine-term Republican with a history of racist comments and inflammatory anti-immigrant rhetoric, was defeated in a Republican primary on Tuesday night in a major political upset. King lost to a state senator who had won the support of national Republicans who said that King had become an embarrassment to the party. That's it for The Daily. I'm Michael Barbaro. See you tomorrow.