The Daily - The Other Russian Interference

Episode Date: July 19, 2018

Amid the chaos after the summit meeting between President Trump and President Vladimir V. Putin of Russia is a very different story of Russian interference, centered on the arrest of Maria Butina, a 29-year-old woman accused of being a Russian agent. Guest: Matthew Rosenberg, who covers intelligence and national security for The New York Times. For more information on today’s episode, visit nytimes.com/thedaily.

From The New York Times, I'm Michael Barbaro. This is The Daily. Today, lost in the chaos of the summit between the United States and Russia is a very different story of Russian interference. The arrest of a 29-year-old woman, Maria Butina, accused of being a Russian agent. It's Thursday, July 19th. I think he might be locked out.

Oh, no. Right here. Oh, I got it. I got it. Hey, sorry, guys. The. I got it. Hey, sorry, guys. The door is jammed. Okay. So are you in a position where we feel like we can start? Yep.

Okay. Matt Rosenberg, what happened on Monday? President Trump. Just now, President Putin denied having anything to do with the election interference in 2016. Early Monday afternoon, everyone in Washington is trying to absorb what had just happened in Helsinki, where they had watched President Trump stand next to Vladimir Putin. Every U.S. intelligence agency has concluded that Russia did. Who do you believe? And basically say he believed Putin more than his own spy agencies when it came to Russian interference in the election. They said they think it's Russia. I have President Putin.

He just said it's not Russia. I will say this. I don't see any reason why it would be. But at the same time, just hours after that summit, the Justice Department announced the arrest of a Russian woman on charges that she conspired to act as an agent of Moscow. This woman named Maria Butina, the Department of Justice, arrested and charged a 29 year old Russian national for working as an unregistered foreign agent. Appears in a Washington, D.C. court. The charges allege Butina tried to advance Russian interests.

Where she's charged with being a kind of clandestine agent of influence for the Russian government. So she's a spy. It doesn't come out and say that, but subsequent court filings, yes, that's essentially what she's accused of, of being an amateur spy. And what do we know about Maria Butina? We know she was born in Siberia and that as a child, her father was a hunter and introduced her to guns. So my father taught me and my sister how to shoot. She said in a radio interview a few years ago that she, at 10 years old, was taught to shoot. Her first love were handguns. I like to shoot. I had a group and we decided why we couldn't fight for our gun rights. We have to protect them. And that eventually grew into a

passion for gun rights. Places like Siberia or Far East of Russia, this is a question of survival. It's a huge problem for self-defense. She was about 21 when she moved to Moscow. There was some talk of opening a furniture store. She went into the ad business. I am a chairman of the Right to Bear Arms. At the same time, her passion for guns had grown into a group called the Right to Bear Arms that she had helped start. It's a Russian nonprofit organization that protects civil rights to keep and bear arms.

Which was a kind of Russian pro-gun movement. That brings her to the attention of a lawmaker named Alexander Torshin. Alexander Torshin. He has close ties to the Kremlin, President Putin, and is an executive with Russia's Central Bank. Torshin is part of Vladimir Putin's United Russia Party. He's in the kind of president's broader circle. He is also very closely associated with the NRA. He himself is somewhat like a Christian right pro-gun politician in Russia.

His Twitter feed is kind of filled with both religiosity and guns. And she goes to work as his assistant. Then in 2013... We've all been under attack since the Connecticut tragedy by those who would exploit the victims of a madman to advance their own anti-Second Amendment agenda. Torshin invites a number of leading NRA members over to Moscow.

The belief in our traditional rights and freedoms. Including the group's president at the time, David Keene. Is as alive today as it was when the Bill of Rights was drafted so long ago. And another guy named Paul Erickson. Being knights, not taking a fight, accomplishes nothing. Who's a kind of South Dakota political fixer, works in Republican circles. Being persuasive, wins wars. Butina meets them all there. And that kind of opens her relationship with the NRA. Thank you, NRA. Thank you. In 2014, she makes some trips over to the U.S. Are you ready to restart your engine here at Indy?

She's at the NRA convention in Indianapolis in April 2014. God bless the NRA. She's again at the NRA convention in 2015. This time it's in Nashville. The gun nuts are not the people who own guns. The gun nuts are the people who are afraid of firearms and think that the whole country would be safer if we would take them away from law abiding people and create a gun free zone where we're all sitting ducks.

And she's using this to kind of parlay and build relationships. Photos she posted on social media show her with Rick Santorum. I believe so much in what the NRA stands for. I think all of us. Bobby Jindal. Or what Hillary Clinton once called the vast right-wing conspiracy. And Scott Walker.

Would any of you here who are serving in the United States Armed Forces, please stand. All future 2016 GOP presidential candidates. Because you're the ones we talk about freedom. We owe that debt of gratitude to. And, you know, for the FBI, what they think is that her main role at this point becomes kind of espionage. You know, she becomes a spy.

And that she is sent here or her goal or her mission is to help kind of sway American politics and build influence and change how Russia is viewed. And this is going to be done through the NRA, that the NRA is considered a powerful kind of broker of opinion within the Republican Party. She is writing this, her and Torshner are discussing how the NRA is crucial to getting people elected in the U.S. And that if she can change opinions there, she can change opinions inside the Republican Party.

And the NRA folks seem to really be taken with her. And it's pretty easy to see why. My story is simple. My father is a hunter. I was born in Siberia. Wait a minute. You were born in Siberia? Absolutely, yes. You know that you're a first Siberian guest

on the Irkma Texas show? Oh, wow. I'm very proud. She's in her 20s. She's got this flowing red hair. She has this Twitter feed where she posts suggestive pictures of herself with guns. And remember, she's mostly dealing with older men here. She started the right to bear arms in a Russian version of McDonald's with friends.

Right. And her work became noticed by the highest levels of the Russian government. It's around the same time she also starts a relationship with one of these people who with friends. Right. And her work became noticed by the highest levels of the Russian government. It's around the same time she also starts a relationship with one of these people who in the indictment is described as U.S. person number one. And now the organization, which began less than four years ago, has over 10,000 members in Russia. And we believe is Paul Erickson. Glad that you're here, Paul, because I know Maria, she's very humble.

She's not going to say these things, but we don't need you to say it, Maria, because we got Paul Erickson right here. And then April 2015, she gives a talk. She's not going to say these things, but we don't need you to say it, Maria, because we got Paul Erickson right here. And then April 2015, she gives a talk in South Dakota at a university, at a high school, and then a young Republican summer camp. And then... Yes, ma'am.

I'm visiting from Russia. Ah, good friend of Obama, Putin. He likes Obama a lot. Go ahead. In July 2015, she pops up at a Trump campaign event in Las Vegas. And do you want to continue the politics of sanctions that are damaging the world's economy? Or do you have any other ideas?

OK. She appears at this campaign event asking him what he thinks of damaging economic relations. Wow, she gets to actually ask him a question. Yeah. I know Putin. And I'll tell you what, we get damaging economic relations. Wow, she gets to actually ask him a question. Yeah. I know Putin, and I'll tell you what, we get along with Putin. Putin has no respect for President Obama. Big problem. And he says that, you know, he knows Putin

and they're going to get along great, basically. I believe I would get along very nicely with Putin. Okay? And I mean, where we have the strength. Fast forward to 2016 now. I'm officially announcing the NRA's endorsement of Donald Trump for president. She and Mr. Torshin travel to Louisville.

Thank you very much. This is amazing. Where the NRA is holding its annual convention. I will not let you down. Remember that. I will not let you down. And they try through intermediaries to see if Trump is interested

in meeting Vladimir Putin. Wow. That's a big request. Yeah, it's a huge request. And this is, you know, Trump is just solidifying his hold on the candidacy and kind of closing out the primaries. So Jared Kushner, you know, president's son-in-law, he wants no partisan shoots down this idea. But Torshin and Butina managed to meet Donald Trump Jr., the president's eldest son, at an NRA-sponsored dinner in Louisville around the convention. Trump's lawyers have said that meeting was brief and kind of dismissed it as unimportant, like a chance encounter. Congressional investigators say they've got pictures of Don Jr. and Maria Bettina and Torshin at the dinner, but it is unclear what exactly transpired there.

So in the months that followed, court documents indicate that she and Torshin decided that traveling in and out of the U.S. frequently was becoming a risk, that it would get her kind of spotted. And so they think she's got to move here. But how does she do that? What's the best way for her to kind of settle in the U.S.? And they settle on student visa. She gets into a program at American University, a graduate program.

And in August 2016, she applies for a visa. So she's coming to the U.S. to study. Yeah. And as she's moving to student life here, she's continuing her relationship with Paul Erickson. The NRA guy. The South Dakota kind of NRA Republican fixer. And court filings, they show us that Erickson is helping her do her coursework, helping her complete assignments.

That's the court records indicate. And the court records kind of say that's why they think the American University was primarily a cover. And she's also talking to Torshin about what she can do to kind of keep building influence. You know, at one point about a month before the election, they talk about maybe she should be an election observer. But they decide that's probably pushing things a little too far. That's a little too risky. But then Trump wins.

And court records indicate that she writes to torsion i am ready for further orders please raise your right hand and repeat after me i donald john trump do solemnly swear i donald john trump do solemnly swear in 2017 butina decides she wants to see the inauguration. She even gets a photo of herself there, which she sends to Torshin. It's her right near the Capitol. And Torshin responds, and this is according to court filings, You're a daredevil girl. What can I say? Which Bettina retorts, good teachers. Today, we continue a tradition begun by President Eisenhower some 64 years ago.

Then a few weeks later, Bettina and Torshin pop up at the National Prayer Breakfast. This gathering is a testament to the power of faith. Which is an annual event in Washington. It's become a huge event for the Christian right. It's a great honor to be here this morning. Trump was speaking. So many faith leaders, very, very important people to me,

from across our magnificent nation, and so many leaders from all across the globe they organized a delegation about a dozen russian officials and academics to come join them there and i hope to be here seven more times with you since then butina's been in washington she's been continuing to build relationships she was posting on Twitter pretty frequently until late last year. She appears to continue a relationship with Erickson. And in recent weeks, the FBI became increasingly alarmed that she was getting ready to flee the country. They saw her and Erickson at a U-Haul rental facility.

She applied to change her visa so she could travel in and out of the country much more easily. She applied to change her visa so she could travel in and out of the country much more easily. Last week, on July 12th, she went into a bank and transferred $3,500 back to Russia. Three days later, that's this past Saturday, the FBI executed a warrant at her house, and they saw her belongings packed and a letter notifying the landlord that she was moving out. And that's the day she was arrested. Matt, based on everything that you just described, Maria Butina sounds a little bit like a parody of a Russian spy, right? Down to this bright red hair.

And yet at the same time, she sounds like a very good spy. And you cover this world carefully. In your estimation, is she a good spy? On one level, absolutely not. I mean, she is keeping records of communications. She's openly joking about kind of working in secret in chat logs and emails that have all been seized by the FBI. So the fact you're doing it and keeping a record of it, that kind of automatically disqualifies you from being like a top 10 spy. But look, she was really good at getting inside with what she considered powerful people that

she needed to influence. And we see that with a number of the NRA people of convincing that she was a fellow traveler, that they were ideological mates, and that together they could kind of help reshape the world. I really want to understand what Maria Butina and her efforts, however good or incompetent they might have been, has to do with everything else we've been learning about Russia's attempts to influence American politics.

So she seems to have started this journey as early as 2013, but it really kicks up into 14, 15, 16. That's the same time that we see Russians are hacking in to Democratic Party emails. They're gearing up a kind of fake news machine to begin to kind of exploit the divisions and really go after the far left and far right and try and promote ideas on those and bring them to the mainstream of their parties. far right and try and promote ideas on those and bring them to the mainstream of their parties. And now we know that they also had individuals like Boudina coming to the U.S., building

relationships in groups that they thought were powerful, like the NRA, to try, in the NRA's case, reshape Republican politics and bring this positive view of Russia much closer to the center. You know, we are seeing, and we have a growing amount of evidence from news reports, from law enforcement, congressional investigators of a very broad Russian campaign over the last few years to really take ideas that were at the fringes of the left and the fringes of the right and move them into the mainstream because those ideas tend to be pretty divisive. So sometimes that's on Facebook.

It's using conspiracy theories. And other times it seems sending a redhead into the NRA to kind of seduce at least one operative and befriend a bunch of others. But I have to say, Matt, that in the grand scheme of all those Russian efforts you just laid out. Yeah. And given the news this week around President Trump and his embrace of President Putin, this Maria Butina episode feels somehow less serious. Is that right? Look, it's a hell of a tale. And it's part of a much broader campaign. And I think, you know, most spies are not Mata Hari or not like a central player that changed the course of history. Most kind of shift things by inches, you know, shift the goalposts a little bit.

And that's what you see her doing when it came to the NRA. You're trying to take an organization that is at the center of Republican politics, at the center of a party that, you know, only a few years ago was dominated by people. Mitt Romney, Jeb Bush, and others who were vehemently anti-Russia. Right. You know, this is the Cold War party of Reagan. These are the Cold Warriors. And you're trying to shift them to being pro-Russia.

So, you know, did Maria Butina shift the party? I mean, that's obviously a lot more complicated than that. Did she have a little bit of impact? You know, she may have. I think that's why we're telling this story now, because it fits into at least a larger Russian effort that we now see and have begun to understand better to reshape our politics.

Matt, thank you very much. Thanks, guys. On Wednesday afternoon, Maria Butina appeared in federal court and pled not guilty to charges of conspiracy and acting as an illegal foreign agent in the U.S. Prosecutors asked that she be held in jail until her trial, arguing that her life in the U.S. had been predicated on deception. We'll be right back.

Here's what else you need to know today. The Times reports that two weeks before his inauguration, President Trump was shown highly classified intelligence, indicating that President Putin had personally ordered cyberattacks to influence the 2016 U.S. election. secret source close to Putin, raises new questions about why Trump has repeatedly expressed skepticism about Russia's role in election meddling. And... Thank you all very much. Appreciate it. On Wednesday, as a cabinet meeting at the White House was about to begin, President Trump was asked by a reporter, Cecilia Vega of ABC News,

whether Russia was still targeting the United States. Is Russia still targeting the U.S., Mr. President? Press, let's go. Make your way out. No, the president said to the original question. No, you don't believe that to be the case, the reporter followed up. No, the president repeated. Three hours later, during a White House news conference. Earlier, the city asked the president, is Russia still targeting the U.S.?

He said no. Is that what the president actually believes? Do you understand the question? And is his position that no, Russia is not doing anything to interfere or meddle in the 2018 election? Press Secretary Sarah Huckabee Sanders was asked to clarify the remarks, which appeared to be in direct contradiction to the president's own clarification the day before, when he said he had misspoken in Helsinki and that he did believe Russia had interfered in the U.S. presidential election, and that the U.S. was working to prevent interference in the

upcoming midterm elections. We had a chance to speak with the president after his comments, and the president said, thank you very much, and was saying no to answering questions. The president and his administration are working very hard to make sure that Russia is unable to meddle in our elections, as they have done in the past and as we have stated.

But why should this president have any credibility to Americans in what he says if, in fact, 24 hours later or, in this case, three hours later, the White House comes out and says, just kidding? First of all, that's not what I said. I was interpreting what the president's intention was and stating the administration's policy. It's not exactly what you just explained. We never said said just kidding. And I think that you can take the fact that the president has credibility because he saw that he had misspoken and he wanted to clarify that yesterday, which he did. So when he sees that

he's misspoken, he comes out and he says that. That's it for The Daily. I'm Michael Barbaro. See you tomorrow.