The Daily - The Race That Could Tip Control of the Senate

Episode Date: October 16, 2024

Yesterday, The Daily explained how control of the House has come down to a few contests in two blue states. Today, we look at the race for the Senate.Carl Hulse, The Times’s chief Washington correspondent, explains how the battle could come down to a single state: Montana.Guest: Carl Hulse, the chief Washington correspondent for The New York Times, who has covered Washington since 1985.Background reading: Republicans appear poised to take control of the Senate, a Times/Siena poll shows.Senator Jon Tester’s fight for survival is Democrats’ last stand on the Great Plains.The contest is a reflection of a changed Montana.For more information on today’s episode, visit nytimes.com/thedaily. Transcripts of each episode will be made available by the next workday. Unlock full access to New York Times podcasts and explore everything from politics to pop culture. Subscribe today at nytimes.com/podcasts or on Apple Podcasts and Spotify.

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Okay, here's today's show. From the New York Times, I'm Sabrina Tavernisi, and this is The Daily. Yesterday we explained how control of the house has come down to a few races in two blue states. Today, my colleague, veteran congressional reporter Carl Hulse, on the Senate, where control could be decided by a single state, Montana. It's Wednesday, October 16th. Karl, nice to see you. Good to be seen.

So Karl, you've been reporting on the Senate and who will control the Senate after this very important election. And Democrats, of course, now control it. You're going to tell me by how much they control it. They control it $51.49, and that is a very close margin. OK, extremely close. So won't take much to knock them off of that. Give us a lay of the land in terms of these races. This is a very tough map for Democrats. One of the toughest they've had in a while. Two seats would knock them out.

One of those seats is already lost, West Virginia, where Joe Manchin decided not to run again. And they've pretty much already surrendered to the Republicans. At the start of the cycle, they were looking at really difficult races and were worried about Nevada, Arizona, Michigan, and Ohio, but at the moment, the Democratic incumbents are running ahead of the Republicans in all those races. And so that has come to put the focus on Montana.

So both parties are focused on Montana. Why Montana in particular? Yeah, it's not a state that often figures into the national political debate. But this is probably the tipping point race that's going to decide control of the Senate. So you have John Tester, who is a dirt farmer in Montana, as he would describe himself. He runs for reelection as someone who can still be a Democrat and win in a rural state where Donald Trump is going to win easily. And Republicans have handpicked a challenger to Mr. Tester, a guy named Tim Sheehy, a veteran and a businessman.

And everyone sees this as the race that is going to decide control of the Senate. Got it. Okay. So incredibly important race. Tell me about Tester. I mean, I know he's a moderate Democrat, but that's kind of where my knowledge stops. Tell me about him. He was elected in 2006, upset a Republican incumbent, but Democrats used to be able to do that in states like Montana. And he is running for his fourth term. He's a big guy, still a farmer himself. He famously lost, I believe it's three fingers in a meat grinder accident.

Oof. But that's part of his authenticity. He celebrates that as proof that he's the genuine article as a farmer. He is somebody who tries to speak for rural America in the Senate, and he tends to push back against the Democratic Party. He has not endorsed Vice President Harris in the presidential race. He's trying to keep that race out there localized rather than nationalized, very difficult to do. And on some issues he has voted with Republicans, and I'm thinking right now of ag policy, water

use and how water is regulated, and he has joined with Republicans on that kind of issue. So he has differentiated himself, but it is hard when you're in the Senate, especially a narrowly divided Senate where you have to help your party. So he votes with the Democrats on a lot of the big issues. Right. But in Montana, he has remained popular. You know, he is seen as one of them, and that's the image he tries to cultivate. He likes to see himself as authentic Montanan

and different from the Democrats in Washington. And why is Tester so at risk? Well, Montana is changing. The state of Montana grew by more than 6% since 2010, the population now at 1,050,000 people. Montana has been a magnet for people looking to relocate in the West. Yellowstone County holds a solid number one spot at 158,000. for people looking to relocate in the West.

Yellowstone County holds a solid number one spot at 158,000. And what has happened is that affluent people have moved into Montana, bought up huge chunks of property, and it's driven up the cost of housing considerably. You know, you think of the hot housing market, you think, I don't know, you know, Silicon Valley, where the homes are way overpriced anyway, in California, but you don't think Billings of Montana, do you? Seven, $800,000 for a house is probably not

out of consideration, and a lot of people pay millions and millions. You gotta ask yourself, what is it about billings that gets top billing? And it's made it really hard for normal people. Montana has faced this new crisis of housing affordability taxes become very expensive to live there for everyday people. And I'm sure people have seen Yellowstone, the Kevin Costner's drama

that's on TV. This your land? Incredible. I didn your land? Incredible. I didn't catch your name. That's because I didn't offer it. You know, this is the fight of Yellowstone. Repeat what I say. I'm going back to California.

I'm going back to California. Montana doesn't want you. Montana doesn't want me. I'm never coming back. I swear. Okay, so who's moving in? You have people who've moved there for all sorts of reasons. So you have people who during the COVID period may have moved to Montana to have the wide open spaces and they're sticking around, right? You have affluent techie type people

have the money to come in and buy, a 10,000 acre ranch and set up shop there. And you have people who are looking for a place where they can be amongst like-minded people, very conservative people. Maybe moving from a place like say Colorado, they're in a mountain state, be amongst like-minded people, very conservative people. Maybe moving from a place like, say, Colorado, they're in a mountain state,

but Colorado is a state that's gone democratic. They wanna get back to a state that is more Republican. So lots of different reasons for people moving in, but they are more Republican than Democratic. And it's interesting because this is, in some ways, flipping the script, right? Usually it's kind of coastal elites who are Democrats moving into conservative places and making it less conservative, but this is the opposite.

Yeah, in some ways, Montana is just the flip side of a lot of these arguments that would be made elsewhere. So all of these people moving in, the population is booming in Montana for all sorts of different reasons, and that is changing the political makeup of the state. Right. The map is changing. The demographics are changing. And Tim Sheehy, the Republican running against John Tester, is part of that change. He is a Minnesota native, a Navy SEAL, a combat veteran. He moved to the state to start a business. He's bought a ranch. He's

raising his family, homeschooling his four children there, I believe. And he has a business that is important in the West. He's got an aerial firefighting business to help put out wildland fires. Danielle Pletka Interesting, huh. David Erickson So he is part of the influx. And Republicans saw him as the ideal opponent for John Tester, went out and recruited him. They've known all along this could be the make it or break it race for the Senate majority

and went and found a guy that they thought would be a great contrast with Tester. Got it. Okay. So Republicans find this guy, Navy Seal, good candidate in their view, how is Tester fighting Sheehy? Is he using Sheehy's outsider status against him? A lot of folks move into this state, a lot of folks with thick wallets, a lot of folks that drive up the cost of housing. Yes, this is sort of the foundational aspect of the testers race against Sheehy is trying to paint Tim she he as the very

Person that many Montanans are worried about taking over their state and I would just tell you on the housing front Tim she is not the solution. He's part of the problem Here's a rich guy moves in buys up some property, and is taking over. And so Tester has pointed to Sheehy as the archetype of what's going on in Montana, and he thinks that there's enough Montanans who aren't going to like that, who are going to back him. Quite frankly, I've got a lot of equipment that I've owned longer than he's been in the state of Montana. And to be able to have those values, those Montana values,

and know what Montana needs, and know what Montana makes Montana tick, is gonna be critically important moving forward. It's not quite keep Montana for Montanans, but it's been really the theme throughout Tester's campaign. So what does she he say in response? How does he fight back against what Tester's bringing here? Truth is, I wasn't lucky enough to be born in Montana. I sure would have loved to have been.

Couldn't control my mother's womb was when I crawled out of it. I couldn't control it. One, he said in their second debate, he said, well, I didn't have any control over where my mother's womb was when I came out of it. And that I wish I had been born in Montana, but I wasn't. Creating jobs in this state was an honor for me to do

and creating affordable housing, literally building affordable housing from scratch so our employees could afford to live in our state was a priority for me and my company, and we've done that. But also that he's bringing business and jobs to Montana. I would say that's his main response. Well, you heard it again. If you come here from out of state,

you're part of the problem. If you're not from here, John Tester doesn't think your voice matters, apparently. And that, you know, new people, new arrivals should be celebrated. You shouldn't have this bias against them. And that Tester's been there too long and is just too democratic. And Montana is a different place now and so is the country. And that he thinks he would be a better representative for the state. So Carl, how is it looking in this race?

Where are they in terms of the polls? Well, I will say this, that John Tester is working really hard, but it's not looking good for John Tester. The polls have him down over seven points and that that's gonna be difficult for him to make up. Now, Tester is somebody who says he can close late and that he's got the great ground game and people are gonna be surprised, and maybe they will be and maybe Tester can win.

But John Tester is sort of the last democratic man standing in this part of America. A part of the country, the Great Plains, where Democrats used to do pretty well, but now are almost non-existent. And I think that this race is emblematic of how things have changed for Democrats in this part of the country. We'll be right back. So Carl, you said that Tester was really the last man standing for Democrats in this very crucial part of the country.

How has Democratic support eroded there and why? Well, Democrats really used to win in this part of the country. As recently as 10 years ago, Montana was represented by two Democrats. But I think to me, it's most remarkable when I look at the Senate map and think that states like North Dakota and South Dakota, 20 years ago, were represented almost in all federal offices by Democrats. Nebraska had Democratic senators. Now, those are all gone. Those seats are held by Republicans.

And what happened? Why did it change like that? These are farmers. These are people in small towns. These are people who used to be able to set aside their partisan leanings at home, where they were probably Republicans. These are conservative voters in these states, but they trusted these Democrats that they

sent to Washington to handle things for them. And why did they trust Democrats before? You know, these Democrats that came from this region were pretty centrist and sort of common sense and that's how the voters saw them. Actually in North Dakota being the state tax commissioner, I know that's a little bit obscure, but that became a stepping stone to federal office. So in other words a pretty kind of nonpartisan state office right? Right and then you know people saw how they conducted themselves. These Democrats all were able to gain seniority,

so they had important positions where they really could influence policy and try and take care of their constituents back home. But I think there's been a steady erosion of trust in some ways between the people who live in these states and the federal government. Those voters also saw the Democratic Party focus heavily on social issues where they really did not have much in common with the Democrats.

And I think that they feel that they've just been left out of the Democratic debate and they have turned to Republicans almost uniformly. But Carl, you were also, of course, talking about people moving into the state who also had a different political orientation. So is the change here in Montana more about people moving in or more about the people who were there already changing their minds? I think it's a little bit of both. I do think it's part of the influx of people, but it's also part of the nationalization

of politics. You know, it used to be all politics is local, now all politics is national. So I think there are people in Montana who have voted repeatedly for John Tester. And now we're like, you know what, I'm going to go with the Republican Party. So this is essentially the story that has been happening all over the country for a while now, right? Like blue states have gotten bluer, red states have gotten redder, and that dynamic is now coming for one of the few remaining places that would still elect a moderate from the

other party, Montana. Right. I do think this is all about the decline of ticket splitting. There used to be a voter who would very easily go into the polling place and vote for a Republican or a Democrat for president and then vote the other way for the Senator or the House member. That just does not happen anymore. People are in their silos. And so for someone like John Tester

to overcome this huge popularity of Trump in Montana is gonna be very difficult. They're gonna have to get a lot of people who vote for Trump to vote for him. Now they are talking about that on the ground out there. They're like, you can be for Trump, but you also can be for John Tester, that you should be able to balance those two

things. The problem for Tester is that people don't want to balance that anymore. They want their party to be in control. And it makes it really hard for Tester. So people don't want to balance that anymore, which translates into Democrats probably not being able to win Montana anymore. At least that's what it looks like at this point. Yet it sounds like the Democrats aren't giving up on this race.

Why is that? Yeah, I think the Democrats are not going to give up. They have said that Tester will have all the resources he needs right to the end. Now there are a couple of things potentially working in Tester's favor. There is a referendum on abortion rights on the ballot in Montana. Tester has really emphasized his support of abortion rights and tried to hit sheehee there. There is a significant and very important Native American voting block in Montana. Tester has really courted them and she, he was caught on a recording saying

some disparaging comments about Native Americans. So that could help Tester. And you know, in our own poll at the Times, there remained a lot of independent voters and undecided voters who could tip this race. And you know, maybe this is one of the last places where people are going to be able to go, Hey, you know what, I'm going to vote for Trump. John Tester has been around for a while. I like what John Tester does. He's a farmer and I'm going to vote for him. And that's certainly what Tester is counting on. She he is counting on that not happening.

So where does this leave us, Carl? And what does it mean about the math of the Senate for Democrats? If they're losing in the Plains states now for good, do they have any path to control in the Senate at all? I mean, is the Senate just lost to them? So the Senate map has changed. If you can't win in the Plains, you have a structural problem. However, the Democrats are now winning in some places where they had their own problems in the past. I think of Colorado, two Democrats are now winning in some places where they had their own problems

in the past. I think of Colorado, two Democratic senators now, 20 years ago, two Republican senators. Arizona, possibly after election day, two Democratic senators. Nevada, a state where Democrats thought they were going to have a big problem this year, seems to be pretty good for the reelection of the Democratic incumbent. So Democrats are offsetting these losses elsewhere. And then you have Texas, which is the holy grail of Democrats. And every election cycle, Democrats say, we're going to turn Texas blue.

And it somehow never seems to happen. Yeah. But this time Ted Cruz is in trouble in Texas against Colin Allred, who's run a good campaign against him. So Ted Cruz has a problem. Democrats are also looking at Florida. There's an abortion referendum on the ballot in Florida as well. Of course, the storms are gonna impact the voting there.

So Democrats are trying to pick off that seat. So why Montana is the hotspot. There are other places that are in play here. So the map is just kind of flipping upside down really and in the balance is control of the Senate. Yes, which is a really, really big deal. You know, we could have this situation where, say that Kamala Harris is elected president and Republicans win the Senate. Well, that hasn't happened in over a hundred years, that exact lineup. Or if Trump wins, Republican Senate may be a Democratic House.

So, think about the Senate for whoever is elected president, right? The Senate, you have to get your cabinet through there. You have to get all your judicial nominees through there. You have to get your policy through there. So it's just going to be really difficult for whoever is elected president to get something done. So, Karl, what does it say to you that this deep partisanship we've been talking about and seeing for years has reached Montana? What does it say to you that this deep partisanship we've been talking about and seeing for years has reached Montana?

What does it say about our politics? It's interesting. People are just in their silos. Now they're Republican or Democrat. People are making their decisions based on national issues rather than the sort of issues that maybe in Montana would have differentiated John Tester from national Democrats. So I think partisanship has taken over and you have the new Republicans there, but also the existing Republicans, people who've lived there for a long time.

And I'm not sure they're ready to look at that guy they voted for so many times and vote for him again. And I think it really makes it difficult for someone like Tester, despite his historic appeal, to continue. Thank you. We'll be right back. Here's what else you should know today. On Tuesday, top security officials in the United States warned Israel that it has to let more humanitarian supplies into Gaza or face consequences. Secretary of State Antony Blinken and Defense Secretary Lloyd Austin said Israel must comply

within 30 days or risk losing military aid. The State Department said the amount of humanitarian support flowing into Gaza last month was at its lowest point since the October 7th attack. American law bars military support going to any country found to be blocking the delivery of humanitarian aid provided by the U.S. And, a county judge in Georgia blocked a new rule mandating a hand count of election ballots

across the state. Enacting such a sweeping change for the November election, he said, was, quote, too much, too late. The judge did not, however, knock down the rule entirely. His decision was confined to the current election, halting the rule from taking effect for 2024 while he further weighs its merits. The judge's ruling was a loss for right-wing activists who have pushed the passage of many new election provisions that the state has approved since summer. Today's episode was produced by Nina Feldman, Mary Wilson, Muge Zadie, and Shannon Lin.

It was edited by Patricia Willans and Brendan Klinkenberg. With help from Paige Cowitt, contains original music by Marian Lozano, Dan Powell and Will Reid and was engineered by Chris Wood. Our theme music is by Jim Brunberg and Ben Landsberg of Wonderly. That's it for the daily. I'm Sabrina Tavernisi. See you tomorrow. Love now and forever.

Love was stronger than anything. I feel the love. Love. And I love you more than anything. What is love? There's still love. Love. Love.

Love. Love. Love. Love. Love. Love. Love. Love.

Love. Love. Love the love of love. And I love you more than anything. Modern love! There's still love. Love. ["The Modern Love"] From the New York Times, I'm Anna Martin. This is Modern Love. Every week, we bring you stories and conversations

inspired by the Modern Love column. This week, I'm talking to the actor, Andrew Garfield, about his new movie, We Live in Time. This movie, I gotta tell ya, it wrecked me. Andrew plays a man named Tobias who falls in love with a woman named Almut who's played by Florence Pugh. Their story feels epic and expansive, but still somehow very intimate. It zooms in on these small, everyday moments that just feel so real to

me. But that's not to say it's all sunshine and roses. Tobias and Almut go through the types of challenges most young couples can't even imagine. And as you watch them navigate this messy stuff, the movie encourages us to turn inward and look a little closer at our own relationships. Also, I just want to say something before we start. Going into this interview with Andrew Garfield, I thought it would be pretty straightforward. I figured we'd talk about We Live in Time, chat about how it relates to the modern love essay

he chose to read, and then listen to him perform it. But during his reading, something happened. Something that's never happened on the show before. I don't want to spoil it for you, so here we go. Here's my conversation with Andrew Garfield. [♪ Music playing. Fades out. Andrew Garfield, welcome to Modern Love. I'm so happy to be here. Thank you for having me.

I'm so happy you're here with us in the studio. I have seen your new movie. It's called We Live in Time. Everyone should see it, but very briefly. It's about a woman named Almut, played by Florence Pugh, and your character, a man named Tobias. They meet because, this isn't a spoiler, this is in the trailer, she runs Tobias over with her car. Correct. Which is a classic meet-cute, isn't it?. This is in the trailer. She runs Tobias over with her car, correct?

Which is a classic meet cute isn't it? Yeah, true if you're tender either hinge If you're running over with a car despite that violent start they end up in a truly transformative relationship That spans all sorts of themes that we talk about here on modern love. Also. I cried so much Oh good, I cried a lot in a good nice cathart I mean, as my producers, I was sitting next to them. It was one of those kind of like hiccupy sobs with a lot of stuff. That's wonderful. And that's what we aim for, yeah. Really?

We're trying to crack the old heart open. You really cracked my old heart open. There was seriously some stuff I needed to work through, clearly. That's good. So thank you. You're so welcome. Before we get too far into it, I want to ask what drew you to this film at this point in your career and life? What did you want to explore through playing Tobias?

It definitely wasn't a career move, it was a life move. Because I was on a kind of unofficial sabbatical because I was tired and entering midlife, you know, looking around, looking forward, looking back, looking presently where I stood and wondering what we were doing being alive at this point. Small questions you ask. In the culture and in our civilization.

And I didn't have a good answer. And then in the middle of my sabbatical, a year in, I read this very, very beautiful script and I could compare it to like, oh, this is a big mass of clay that's already begun to be carved by this amazing writer, Nick Payne. And the raw material of this piece is kind of the raw material that I'm longing to express and explore and deal with. So it felt like I was able to go into the next room with some friends and collaborators, including Florence and John Crowley, and go, okay, I'm going to make something with you

guys, but I'm just so you know, I'm bringing, this is all, it feels like I could have written this. Very deeply relevant to the place you are in life. Very, very prescient and very kind of, yeah, present. Did you go in looking for answers to these big, big questions that you were asking yourself during this midlife, can I call it a crisis? I don't know if you called it a crisis. I didn't, but I see what you're reading into my demeanor and body language for those of

you who aren't watching. It does look like I might be in a crisis. No, you have a cool jacket on. Yeah. my demeanor and body language for those of you who aren't watching. It does look like I might be in a crisis. No, you have a cool jacket on. No, I wouldn't call it a crisis actually. I would call it a midlife exploration. Reckoning. Reckoning.

A falling apart to put oneself back together. Like natural. It feels very, very natural. And I think the mislabeling, I think it becomes a crisis when you don't consciously deal with the shit that's going on. Gotcha. But you were kind of dealing with it, it sounds like, through... Consciously, for sure. ...and inhabiting this role of Tobias in this film. This felt like a sculptor or a reporter. It's like I was full of all the primal matter of what I was transforming through. And this script and this film just allowed me to put

some form on it. It was like I could get and then like shape something. And it was like, oh, it felt healing. It felt exorcising. It felt, yeah, it felt very, very beautiful. Yeah. I mean, the best way that I could describe this film is just to say that it feels extremely real. Like the movie's full of these moments that you can imagine yourself in. You see Tobias and Almut washing dishes and talking after a dinner party or they're eating a biscuit in the tub together or they're cracking eggs for breakfast and through all these intimate small everyday moments you can just tell that these characters love each other deeply. It feels like you're watching a real life couple live their life and try to figure so much out. I want to know what do you hope people feel when they witness

these moments? I think what's amazing about the film and about, as you say, these small, more ordinary, extraordinary moments is it's all of us. If they feel representative of these liminal spaces between the larger more explosive dramatic moments of a partnership or of a life. And I think people will watch and feel connected to their own lives in a way that maybe they haven't been if they've been running around in this kind of late stage capitalist nightmare. Say that again. I mean I told you I was sobbing, I clearly, it brought up a lot. It was the right

movie for me to see. Oh good. Good. Say more. No. Oh fuck you man. I asked the question. No this is some bullshit. Like this doesn't, like people aren't gonna get what they need unless we meet in the middle, man. Like, this is... No, I'm just kidding. I'm totally kidding. My editor's like, no, no, no. I'm totally kidding. But at the same time, I'm not. I was going through a big breakup. I'll just say that. Okay, gotcha, gotcha, gotcha. And also the... And we'll get to this, but the first...

The big fight that Alma and Tobias had was so... I'm 30 years old, so I'm... We should cut all of this, but it was like very... The good news is you have the right to carry on and I don't. It just... That conversation and that fight felt like one I could... I did have... I have had. Oh wow. Wow, wow, wow. Interesting. It hit. Yep, yep, yep, yep, yep. Good, good.

Okay. So there are these beautiful small moments and they're also balanced out by these very painful scenes, these tough points in the story where Tobias and Alman are grappling with the fact that she's been diagnosed with cancer. And the very real prospect that there might not be many more mornings with eggs for breakfast or biscuits in the bath. What do you think this movie says about how to hold on? Oh, no, you don't like this question? No, I love it! It's impossible. Okay, that sigh was heavy. What do you think this movie says about how to hold on? Oh, no, you don't like this question

Okay, that sigh was heavy. Yeah, man What do you think this movie says about how to hold on to the beauty of those moments? When you're really scared to lose them and sorry, it is a very big question. I'm posing to you, but the problem is is You can't hold on to anything. Hmm. It's it's it's all letting go. This is all a letting go. Sorry, it's like emotional. Yeah, this life is all a letting go. And the idea of holding on, I like the idea of savoring things. I think that the Jesuits are pretty good at that. I learned that from the Jesuits. So just as a segue, they had this wonderful prayer called the examine that they do every night. And it's pretty much the same as,

I don't know if you've seen the film About Time, the Richard Curtis film, that Donald Gleason character basically, you know, he starts by saying, so what I did is I started living each day twice and choose to see deeper and be more present in every small, banal, seemingly moment. And it doesn't, you know, I'm going to be a Jesuit or a Catholic or even religious to do this, but it's a beautiful practice at the end of the day, every night, just to lay down, close your eyes, go back over the day, think of the three or four moments where, as the Jesuits would

say, where you felt God's presence very near you, but fill in the blank, where you felt alive, where you felt close to yourself, where you felt connected to the mystery, the unseen forces, and you re-enter those moments and you savor the feeling of it could be, you know, something to do with nature, a conversation with a friend, time spent with a God child, whatever it is. And then you go through the whole day and you notice where you were aware of that mystery and then you notice again where you missed the mark and you ask for forgiveness and you ask to do better tomorrow. I guess it takes 15 minutes and usually you fall asleep during and you have a better sleep because you're kind of, you're connecting and you're savoring the things that matter. But my God, it's all so transient and it's all leaving

constantly and the people that I'm inspired by most and that I respect and love the most are the people that, I think I'm thinking now about Mike Nichols who I got to do Death of a Salesman with and he became a friend and a mentor before he passed away in the last 10 years. I remember him as someone who seemed to be giving himself away like seed, just planting himself like seed as he, as he exited this earth and he was able to move with such lightness. And he knew, I think he got to the place of wisdom to know that he can't take any of it with him. He just wants to leave it all here

for other people to feast upon. Do you do that part every night? When I'm a good boy, so no. Unfortunately. Well, it's interesting. I was gonna ask you where the emotion lay for you, because when you said you can't hold on to anything, it clearly struck a chord, but I'm listening to you speak,

I realized, like, the emotion was perhaps, I mean, break it down for me, it doesn't feel completely like sadness, there's a real liberation in the fact that we can't hold on to everything. There's no joy without sorrow, there's no sorrow without joy. I mean, that wonderful Pixar film, Inside Out, taught us that. But I really love those films. I think they are a great manual for us. I agree, I'm sure you could be in one.

I don't know, this is my pitch, I guess. No, I really feel like the only gateway to true vitality is through a broken heart is Acknowledging that we are that our hearts are meant to to break and break and break and live by breaking. That's definitely a quote It's not mine It's I think it's the beginning the Jesuits. No, I think it's the beginning of angels in America I think that's a quote that Tony Kushner has basically like the the idea is that our hearts,

the only way our hearts can expand is by cracking open and cracking open further and further and further. Like the finite nature of us being here is the only thing that makes it meaningful. What's that concept? It's the concept that a friend taught me once called Onism. Oh, N-I-S-M. I-S-M. And I believe, if someone could be Googling this just to make sure I'm not incorrect, I believe it is a... Can I tell you?

No, no, I want to say first and then you can... It's like a test. Okay. I like a game and a test. Right, right. It's both. So I'm going to say it's the sense and knowing and the sorrow of knowing that you will only be able to live your own life.

You won't be able to have all of the experiences you want. That I won't be able to read all the books in the library, see all the films in the cinema, know all the people on earth, visit all the countries, know all of history, all of time. Like is a kind of an imprisonment in the life that you have realizing that you're trapped to a certain amount of experience as you're alive. That is it, yes. Yes.

The AI overview when I Google it is telling me that you're very correct. I mean, but I have to, I mean, you are, this concept of the sort of prison of one experience, one body, one life, that is super on the nose to the modern love essay you've selected to read for us today. This essay is called Learning to Measure Time in Love and Loss by Chris Huntington. Before we get into it, can you just tell me, why did you choose this essay? It chose me. I was, you guys sent me a few,

and this was the first one I read. And it felt like I, I was, it was a combination of being dragged inside of it and diving inside of it simultaneously. And I felt like I knew the ending at the beginning and I knew it does the magic trick that it's talking about. And then I read the other few and I thought they were wonderful,

but I kept on thinking about this one while I was reading the other few, so I was like, oh, I have to do that one. When we come back, Andrew reads Chris Huntington's essay, Learning to Measure Time in Love and Loss. You will not want to miss it. Learning to Measure Time in Love and Loss by Chris Huntington For about ten years, I worked full-time in prisons as a teacher. I logged more than 40 hours a week behind those fences, including a long winter at one facility that had been a cereal factory and stood near the highway in downtown Indianapolis. It was a rock of a building with finger-thick grills on the windows.

During my first week there, an inmate laughed when I asked him to reset the wall clock. A few minutes off, he said. We need one that goes by months and years. What do we care about five minutes? I mention this only because his words summed up the love story that had defined my life. When my wife left me, I was living in Paris, which was not as romantic as it may sound, because I was incredibly lonely. My bones ached, especially at the sound of accordions

and train stations. All my plans had come to nothing. I had failed at marriage, failed at work, and had no money to speak of. Sometimes I would see my ex-wife on the street, and she would turn away with an eagerness that could not be ignored. One night, I came upon two boys robbing an old Vietnamese man and when I tried to intervene and make them stop they turned on me. I began to wonder if maybe a part of me wanted to die. I moved back to the United States and took the job in the prison. I met the inmate who helped me with the clock. I also met an inmate who had salt and

pepper hair, huge biceps, and a pair of ridiculous glasses no one in the free world would ever wear. This inmate's name was Mike. Mike showed me a folder of clippings and photocopied certificates from all the educational programs he had completed in prison. He had earned a GED and a bachelor's degree, as well as certifications in the usual programs like small engine repair and barbering. He had kept letters from his counselors, chaplains, and teachers.

In these letters, supervisor after supervisor claimed to love him, but it all struck me as kind of sad and awkward. I couldn't read the whole thing. I had my own problems. I had taken a tiny apartment and spent my evenings trying to write a book and corresponding with women I'd met on the internet. I took all my lost chances personally. When I first met Mike, he said, these young guys, they just get locked up and they've got five years to do and they hate it.

When you're 20, five years is a long time, so they act out. I used to be like that, but now I'm two-thirds done, so every day is taking me closer to the door. When I think like that, I can get up in the morning and smile. A month later, my supervisor told me Mike had been locked up for more than 16 years and had at least eight more to go. Arrested when he was a teenager. He wasn't going to be released until he was in his mid-forties. He had raped the sheriff's daughter in his hometown. It didn't matter how fat his folder of supportive letters got.

I used to be angry, Mike told me. I'd pick fights over nothing. I was mad to be in prison and I wanted everyone else to be mad too. But then I realized, man, this is my life. Do I want to be that guy, always mad? I'm not going to get married. Or have a family, not today, maybe never. I'm going gonna be here. I'm a prisoner. There are some things I'm never gonna do. And I can spend my life being mad about that or I can try something else." I asked him what he had decided. I decided to be the best prisoner I could be, he said. This all relates to the clock on the wall because I fell in love again, and this became my new life. She was from New Hampshire and had never been to France. She left me for

two years to write a memoir about her mother, but then she came back. She wrote me letters and I felt I knew her entire apartment because I studied the tiny photo she sent me of her sitting at her desk or standing by her curtains. We were married but not before I went to New Hampshire and met her mother. That afternoon her mother could barely look at me. She was 48 and very sick, just a few months away from being dead. My wife drove me through her hometown and I saw the lake where she had spent her summers when she was a teenager, not quite five feet tall and voluptuous in swimsuits long gone. We ate ice cream and talked quietly in the afternoon. She held my hand. She gave

me an expensive watch that I kept wearing even after the crystal was scratched. Our son is from Ethiopia where I once saw a dead horse on the side of the road that resembled an abandoned sofa. I asked a friend if we needed to do something about that and he said the wild dogs would take care of it. We took our son far away from all of that five years ago, which may seem like a kindness, except it also hurts. I wish our son could know those dirt roads and the way they looked like chocolate milk in the rain, the way the hillsides were

a delicate green, the way our driver would not go into the zoo because he was disgusted by the concrete ugliness of the lying cages. I wish my son's birth parents could see him swimming. He is such a good swimmer. I wish they could hear him reading books aloud. I wish he could know them. I wish our son could speak Oromo, the language of his birth. Our story so full of love is also full of loss. When I was younger, I used to get up early in the morning to write.

Now I get up early to make my son breakfast. I rarely stay up late. I like my job. But I have to work after dinner most nights. I can reach my laptop only if I lean over the pile of markers and a tiny buzzed light year on my desk. My wife hasn't worn a bikini for six years and probably never will again. She says she's too old, which makes me sad. She's a beautiful woman with grey in her hair. My parents no longer drive at night. Sorry. Fucking hell, I'm sorry.

No, it's beautiful. Do you want to take a break? No, it's okay. Are you sure? Yeah. Oh dear. Can I ask you if you just, this might take you out of it, so tell me to stop, but what's hitting you so much in this section? I don't know.

It's mysterious. Um, this is what, my art is so important. It can get us to places that we can't get to any other way. Um, I think what's hitting me, I don't know, I don't know, I don't know. It's, it's the preciousness. It's the preciousness as we've been talking about. And it's the longing for more. It's like we all pass with so much more to know with so much more longing.

Mike passed away. Like Nichols? And he was in the middle of prepping his next movie. And in the middle of his favorite pasta with his favorite person in the world. And it's hard to understand why that has to be the setup. I don't know why it's affecting me so deeply, but I just, I feel this man's writing and it feels like for all of us, it feels like he's tapping into something so universal. A longing to be here. And there are moments in our film when I watched it in Toronto with an audience where all I saw was, it was in the quiet moments, particularly after a diagnosis or something, something heavy, all

I saw was two people that want to live. They're not asking for much. They just want their fair shot at creating a life. And I think that's all of us. I think we all just want a fair shot at creating a life. I don't know. I'm sad. I'm sad. I'm sad at losing anyone. I'm sad at losing anything. I'm sad at the transience of certain relationships in my life. I'm sad at losing my mother, of course. I'm sad at the idea of losing my father, of not being there when my nephews are

my age or older. Like, I'm sad at the concept of not having children of my own. I'm sad at... But the sadness is longing. It's true longing and there's no shame in it. And I think we feel, I can feel myself right now putting the kind of the modern conditioning taboo on this very, very pure feeling I'm having and expressing with you. And I find that sad. What do you mean? Like you're trying to push it? There's a part of me that's like, okay, no, come on now, dude. Put yourself together. I wish you wouldn't until you're ready.

I appreciate that. But I think that is the killer. And that impulse that is not mine, that is inherited, that is conditioned from our culture to not feel, to calcify the heart, to not reveal the heart, to not trust another person with our hearts is what gets us into trouble. And I think it's so easy now to feel hopeless in this current state of the world, being alive right now. I can feel quite hopeless. And we can feel quite numb, we can feel quite disconnected and isolated. But I don't know, I feel like the feeling, the longing lives in all of us.

The longing to connect, the longing to love, the longing to risk. Yeah. I really appreciate you being so open with us. I mean, it brings a new depth, I think, to this piece. Maybe there's also a cracking open happening with this essay, similar to what you mentioned reading the script for the first time. For sure. Of We Live in Time, and I'm grateful to be able to witness it or be in the same room

as it, so. Hold space. You're holding lovely space for it. Thank you. Well, can I meadow with you for a second? Get into it. No one has ever stopped in this way when we've done these essay reads, and I find it very, it's very interesting for me to experience because I'm listening to you read this and

inhabit the voice and the experience of the author, and then you break out in this way that feels at once very you from what I know of you, but also very much still in this world as well. And it's very interesting. I feel like you're bridging many different worlds. I also feel like you're kind of inhabiting the role of Tobias again and speaking from that perspective that I saw in the film. So I feel like you're world jumping a bit. And it's very interesting. It's really neat. And that's the wrong word.

And this is neat. and it's very interesting. It's really neat, and that's the wrong word. This is neat. Totally neat. But I want this to be a more normal type of interaction for people. Wonderful. Whenever you're ready. Yeah, I'm ready. You stopped at? Yeah, I remember.

Okay, wonderful. Thank you. My parents no longer drive at night and have fewer and fewer hobbies. This summer, my mother made a box of cookies just for my son and I was happy to see them talking quietly in the kitchen. I'm constantly aware of lost opportunities. I used to think such lost opportunities were beautiful towns flashing by my train windows, but now I imagine they are lanterns from the past, casting light on what's ahead. My life is constrained in hundreds of ways and will be for years as my son grows up and my wife and I grow older.

I don't know when I will return to Paris, if ever. I don't know when or if I will finish my book. I do know I love eating breakfast with my son. My wife wants us to open only one box of cereal at a time to keep the flakes from going stale, but my son and I get up first, so we eat what we want. We like to change. He gives me a thumbs up whenever I open a new box. In our family, we talk about our days and recount our best part and worst part at dinner time. Last week, I was reading a bedtime story with my son and was distracted by the laptop and work waiting on my desk but I turned to him and I said, we forgot best part, worst part. What was the best part of your day? He pushed his

chin into my shoulder and said, this is daddy. This is. I felt a complete fool. I had to close my eyes for a moment. And then we agreed that his worst part was when he had cried about eating chickpeas. When I was a boy, I hated beets. I hope I can protect my son from beets until he's old enough to hold in the tears. They're not worth it. When the battery in my watch died, I still wore it. There was something about the watch that said, It doesn't matter what time it is.

Think in months, years. Someone loves you. Where are you going? There are some things you will never do. It doesn't matter. There is no rush. Be the best prisoner you can be. Big breath. There's a poem that it makes me think of. Please.

Can I? Yeah, of course. It's... Are you on the Wi-Fi? No, I think I have it actually. I have a photo of it at Handy. So I was thinking about it. It's called The Man Watching and it's by Rilke. I'm happy to read it. Do you want to read it?

Do I want to read it? No, I'm happy to read it. I'm happy to read it. Because it's a little bit of a tricky one because the structure is a little weird, but I'll read it. Okay. I think you should certainly read it, not me. Okay, so this is The Man Watching by Raina Maria Rilke, translated by Robert Bly, one

of my favorite translators of Rilke's poetry and a great poet unto himself. Okay. I can tell by the way the trees beat after so many dull days on my worried window panes that a storm is coming. And I hear the far-off field say things that I can't bear without a friend, I can't love without a sister. The storm, the shifter of shapes, drives on across the woods and across time, and the world looks as if it had no age. The landscape like a line in the Psalm book in seriousness and weight and eternity. What we choose to fight is so tiny. What fights

with us is so great. If only we would let ourselves be dominated as things do by some immense storm, we would become strong too and not need names. When we win, it's with small things, and the triumph itself makes us small. What is extraordinary and eternal does not want to be bent by us. I mean the angel who appeared to the wrestlers of the Old Testament. When the wrestlers' sinews grew long like metal strings, he, the angel, felt them under his fingers like chords of deep music. Whoever was beaten by this angel, who often simply declined the angel, felt them under his fingers like chords of deep music. Whoever was beaten by this angel, who often simply declined the fight, they went away proud and strengthened and great from that harsh hand that needed him as if to change

his shape. Winning does not tempt that man. This is how he grows, by being defeated decisively by constantly greater beings. Wow. Why did that, why did that, we get two readings for the price of one, eh? I'm not getting paid shit for this, actually. Yeah, that's journalism. Can you tell me- Why? Yeah. I want to doubt, yeah. It's a poem about humility in the face of the greater opponents,

the things that don't want to be bent by us. It's about the prison. Yeah. I want to ask you about the prison. That last line is also, of course, echoed in the beginning of the piece. And I want to really close read that final sentence, be the best Prisoner you can be yeah, what is the prison? this body

On ism this body the gravity The time of my birth to the time of my death. Yeah My my white skin, my brown hair, my, uh, brown eyes, my, the shoe size that I have, I'm never going to know what it's like to have smaller feet. It's awesome. I knew it! Fuck! It rocks, yeah.

Um, you know, it's, uh, but the prison, uh, it's, uh, it's, uh, it's, uh, it's, but the prison, I want to be the, and I think the best prisoner is the best version of this, the best, the best Andrew, you know, I like the idea that at the end of our lives, if there is some celestial being that we meet, I like the idea of them asking, hey, were you Andrew? Did you do it? Wow. Like, did you live into all of what you were meant to live into or as much as you could? I don't know. And the prison being the fated thing, the thing that we have no control over. And it's just, you know, how do we surrender to our fate so that we

can live into our destiny? Danielle Pletka Did you just come up with that right now? Matthew Feeney I wish I could lie and say yes. No. There's a really wonderful mythologist thinker called Michael Mead who I really love. And he's full of wisdom and he's someone that I look to a lot and I read around a lot and listen to his talks. And he was a collaborator of Robert Bly who translated that poem and yeah. Can I ask you a bit more about the prison and then I promise we'll move on? No, it's good. Do you think we're alone in there?

Oh man. Isn't that interesting? Because the thing that comes to mind as you ask that is I think the loneliness we feel here and the longing that we feel here is a kind of unconscious remembrance of a fact. And that fact is that we are all actually one thing. Like I do, I do, that does sound like I could be a Burning Man and I am aware of that. But I do think we are, I'm going to say something that illustrates this hopefully in a way that, I don't know, when my mum passed, something made sense to me and it could just be my imagination, it could be magical thinking, and I'm actually okay with that. I got the sense that she was back running with her angel tribe. For real though. For

real. Because in life, she was an angel on this earth. She was a helper. She was a carer. She was a giver. She was a healer in the small, little, subtle ways that are mostly invisible. And she would get frustrated with herself because she couldn't be in a thousand places at once. She was frustrated with the kind of prison of her own carnal form. Anna's in again, yeah. And then the sense I got when she passed, one of the things that I saw in her dream or I felt as a waking dream, I'm not sure, was, oh, she's back with her tribe and she can be in the

thousand places at once now because she's pure spirit. She's back with the everything. She's back with the source of the mystery of where we all will go back to and where we all originated from. I don't know. That's just a theory. I can't know. It could be absolute bullshit. I like that. I like it too. I don't know, that's just a theory. I can't know. It could be absolute bullshit. I like that. I like it too. I really like that. It's a lovely image.

You're bringing up your mom, which I'm grateful for. I wanted to ask you about your experience filming. We live in time, given your mom's passing from cancer a few years ago. Did playing Tobias teach you anything new or surprising about your grief and how to go on living after loss? Damn. Gosh, I think what the film does beautifully is it honors grief, it honors the experience of grief, it honors what the essay does that we read today as well. It acknowledges that we don't get to be in charge of what we lose, how we lose it, and when. And I think I fight loss all the time. I try to resist loss all the time, foolishly and pigheadedly and egotistically. And I think in terms of the transient nature of letting go of everything, I had a friend

that passed recently. Sorry. Thank you. And he was like a Zen master in some regard, not intentionally, he just was. And by the end of his life, he was allowing himself the sorrow and the joy of transitioning, as he said it, going over to the other side. And there was something so exquisite about his courage. His courage not only to be like, this is the way it has to be, but his also his courage to be like, I want to stay, I wish I could stay, I have more I want to do, I'm so sad I'm not going to be able to be your friend anymore. In fact, I felt like you were another son to me. Oh my gosh, I wish I could, but bye bye, and I love you. Like, it's like, there's,

if I can, if I can follow in my friend's footsteps in any way, that would be, and then Mike, Mike Nichols, as I said, giving himself away, holding it lightly, not wanting to be the richest man in the graveyard or caring about legacy particularly, but just kind of, just like... Being able to be present while also giving grace to the future and embracing both in equal turn. I feel like to bring it back just once more to the movie, to Bias and Elmet do a really admirable job of doing that, of balancing the present and also looking forward. How do you calibrate that balance in your own relationships? Pfft.

Sorry, heavy hitters. We could go with easier questions. No, listen, I love this, you know, I love it. This is what I want my life to be. It's a tough question actually. Well, time, right? Right, right. We live in it. What is time?

What is it though? You know? Like, the future has already happened. Like, it's all connected. Like, what I love again, I think what was said in this essay about the missed opportunities becoming lanterns to guide the way into a future. It was so beautiful. And I really got it in a deeper way in the second reading.

It's like, I don't know, it's so hard to listen and trust one's longing. I think we all have so much longing in us to live. We have an image of what our life wants to look like, feel like, taste, sense. And I think it's so hard to have the courage to follow those longings, to own those longings, to want what we want, because then what if we don't fucking get it? And then the heartbreak comes. And the deepest longings are the ones that we are really afraid to mention, the ones that really could cost us. Only as much as you feel comfortable sharing.

I think one of my final questions to you, you're speaking about the things you long for and I wonder, whatever you feel comfortable sharing, what are some things that you're in your own life? My own personal longings? They're pretty basic, they're pretty God in variety. I find that surprising. What are some things that you're... My own personal leggings. Yeah, in your own life. They're pretty basic, they're pretty God in variety. I find that surprising. No, but I long for love to connect with life, to connect.

It's not like, this is very broad in general, but it's like I want to live courageously, I want to live true to myself and whatever that means. I want to make things that are beautiful and that connect with people, that give people some solace, some comfort, that help them connect with the world and themselves. I want great friendships. I want great time with my family. I want healthy, boundaried relationships with friends and partners and family members.

I want to know, right now I'm working on codependency in my life. I want to know, for real. Can you go into that? Yeah, for sure. I just like, basically, I want to know where you end and I begin. Right. I don't want to like feel like I have to take on and become and hold all of... Me? All of me?

All of you particularly. Are you single? That is none of your business. That was a question. No, it's fine. It's a fine thing to ask. And yeah, weirdly, for whatever reason, I don't give that part of my life anywhere publicly. I just don't. Yeah, I respect it.

I had to ask. We're a love show. No, no, it's totally fine. And I understand the question. And I think it's such a sacred thing. And I think becoming a public person is very challenging, I think, for anybody, let alone a sensitive little fuck like me. And I just know that you and I might have a really lovely conversation about, you know, coming off of that question, but people, certain people listening from

certain other publications will take that and turn it into something that is exploitative. I understand. And I'm just not interested in that. Okay. I could talk forever, but we do. I want to respect your time. You have a heart out, so I'm going to close us. Okay. I'm trying to debate.

You can tell me which one you'd rather do. Because I was planning on ending this by playing the game that Chris Huntington, the author of the essay, plays with his kid, which is best part, worst part of our days. Nice. Or... Yes. What?

We could do the thing that you were talking about with the Jesuit prayers. Oh. And you could say four things that made you feel very, well you don't have to say four, you could say a couple of things that made you feel present today. You know what, I think they're both the same thing. I think best part, worst part and the Jesuit prayer are kind of very similar things. Okay. So let's do best part, worst part.

We're both doing it? Yeah. Okay. The least you could do. Let's start with things. Okay. So let's do best part, worst part. We're both doing it? Yeah. Okay. The least you could do. Let's start with worst. Okay, go ahead. I have to think. Me too.

I got it. Wow. Okay. My worst part... Hmm. ...is that we had lunch an hour and a half after lunchtime today. And I got very cranky for an hour and a half. Because just the schedule, the nature of the schedule while we're promoting this film.

And I, you know, I get cranky. I get hangry if I don't. I'm like, you're nodding so much at everything. Appreciate it. I mean, I get hangry if I don't. I'm like, you're nodding so much at everything. Appreciate it. I mean, I get it. My worst part was this morning, there was a dead cockroach in my kitchen when I woke up and I was all alone. Why is that funny? Because it was really scary.

I get it. It was totally... Have you had a cockroach? I'm laughing because it's like an acknowledgement. Have you seen the New York ones? I know about New York cockroaches, girl. Have you encountered them, boy? Yes, of course I have. Human person.

Okay, that's true. Well, I just... Okay, here's what I did. I raided it. Yeah. A lot, even though it was already dead. And then I flushed it down the toilet. Good for you.

Thank you. You're brave. Thank you. And you could do it on your own. Thank you. But it would have been nicer if you had some kind of assistance. 100%. I understand.

That was my worst part. Now we do best part. Was it the first thing in the morning as well? It was like I was walking in to get my coffee. Yeah. Right there in the middle. Yeah. I'm sure you might have welled up a little bit.

It was a big one. In frustration and upset. I feel like mine's my worst is worse than yours. It absolutely is. My worst was not bad at all. I think you're being coy. All right. Let's do. Best part? Yeah. I'm gonna go first because we should end with you. We should end with you.

Okay, sure. My best part was this conversation. Very nice. Thank you. Thanks. I was gonna say my best part was... was this conversation. Very nice. Thank you. I was going to say my best part was... Not this conversation. That was the end of this conversation. No, I would say my best part was absolutely generally this conversation,

but also particularly in a moment of cracked open vulnerability to have, to feel safe that I could allow that to be there and to feel that Not only did I have my own I could hold my myself in that vulnerability But that I felt safe to do it in this room with you people felt like quite a privilege And I'm just very very grateful for that. Well, we're grateful for you Andrew Garfield. Thank you so much for this conversation. Thank you Wow. Well, we're grateful for you. Andrew Garfield, thank you so much for this conversation. Thank you. I feel like it was kind of a dream state we were in for a while. I know. I feel like I have to breathe.

Yeah, it was a little odd. I want to shake it off. I know. I know. It was a little kind of like portal. If you want to read the Modern Love essay featured in today's episode, you can find the link in our show notes. And before we go, this year is the 20th anniversary of the Modern Love column. And if you're a reader or a listener, we want to know how the column has affected you. Has it made a difference in how you think about love in your own life? If it has, please leave us a message on our Modern Love hotline at 212-589-8962.

That's 212-589-8962. Include your name and a number where we can call you back, and you just might hear yourself on a future episode of the show. Modern Love is produced by Revo Goldberg, Davis Land, Emily Lang, and Amy Pearl. It's edited by Lynne Levy and our executive producer, Jen Poyant. Production management by Christina Josa. Special thanks to Paula Schumann. The Modern Love theme music is by Dan Powell. Original music by Aman Sahota, Diane Wong, and Dan Powell. This episode was mixed by Daniel Ramirez. Studio support from Maddie Masiello and Nick Pittman. Digital production by Mahima Chablani and Mel Galloakly.

The Modern Love column is edited by Daniel Jones. Mia Lee is the editor of Modern Love Projects. If you want to submit an essay or a tiny love story to the New York Times, we've got instructions to do that in our show notes. I'm Anna Martin. Thanks for listening.