The Daily - The Return of Rudy Giuliani

Episode Date: May 7, 2018

Since joining President Trump’s legal team, Rudolph W. Giuliani has repeatedly made attention-grabbing TV appearances in which he has antagonized Robert S. Mueller III, the special counsel overseeing the Russia investigation. The strategy is reminiscent of one that Mr. Giuliani has used before — 30 years ago, as a prosecutor in New York City taking on the Mafia. Guest: Michael Winerip, who covered Mr. Giuliani’s rise as a Manhattan prosecutor in the 1980s for The New York Times. For more information on today’s episode, visit nytimes.com/thedaily.

From The New York Times, I'm Michael Barbaro. This is The Daily Watch. Today, since joining the president's legal team, Rudy Giuliani has repeatedly made news with his attention-grabbing TV appearances antagonizing special counsel Robert Mueller. It's the same strategy Giuliani used 30 years ago as a New York City prosecutor,

taking on the mafia. It's Monday, May 7th. Hello? Mike? Yeah. Is that motherf***er there? Yeah. Let me talk to him. Yeah, Jimmy? Yeah? Is that mother f***er there? Yeah, let me talk to him Yeah, Jimmy?

Yeah, Chuck Chuck, I'm gonna tell you something You have that f***ing 200 In my hands tomorrow If you ain't got the 200 In my f***ing hands tomorrow You understand me? I'll break every f***ing bone In your body Before I go to jail I swear to my kids Mike Weinberg, remind me what's going on with the mafia in New York at this time, the mid-1980s.

Well, the mafia at that point has a real stranglehold on the city. They have their hands almost everywhere. At street level, even a soldier can earn millions of dollars for himself and his crime family. They're getting two percent kickbacks in construction projects. They're getting payoffs for every truck that heads out of the garment district on the west side. They control the unions, the teamsters. They're mob payoffs for every truck that heads out of the garment district on the west side. They control the unions, the teamsters. They're mobbed up. Although the marketplace appears tranquil, it is governed by violence.

Not surprising when millions of dollars are at stake. It's not only economic. It's spilling out into the streets. This is the time when Paul Castellano, one of the heads of the five families in New York City, gets knocked off in front of a steakhouse in Midtown by John Gotti's people. The shooting was gangland style. Angelo Bruno was shot once in the back of the head at Point Blank Range. It was a sudden death that left the reputed mob boss frozen, his mouth open as if to call for help, but no one would hear him. The mob is really in people's minds and on the front pages

in a way that it's a little hard for people now to envision. So for decades, the prosecutors in New York have been trying to take down these families, and they've had limited success. They can get an individual case, and they can get an individual family. But to get at the whole deep-rooted problem, they're going to need to do more. And that's where Rudy Giuliani comes in, this new prosecutor in Manhattan, whose job was to bring down the mafia, the mob in New York City. So what is Giuliani's strategy?

Well, we have these five families. The Bananos, the Gambinos, the Colombos, the Genoveses, and the Lucchesis. And each has a different part of the city, and each has a different group of trades. One might have the construction industry. One might have the concrete plants. One might have the concrete plants. One has the garment district. Another has the building unions. And they're real concerned. They don't want to step on each other's toes

because then there's trouble. Then there's internal warfare. Then people start getting shot. You literally have a mess on the sidewalks of New York City. So they come together and they have this board of directors and they divvy up the city and they divvy up the trades and they divvy up the industries. And that's the point where Rudy Giuliani steps in. He has the idea to instead of just focus on one family, the Gambinos or the Bonanno family, it would be more effective to take on the whole

board of directors of the mafia in New York, all five families at once. And so then he gets together with the agents and the prosecutors and the task force, and they make a strategy of what kind of wiretaps they need, who they need to flip to get the information they need. And one of the things he does, which is unusual, is he goes after the defense attorneys for some of these mafia figures because he thinks he can prove they're part of the criminal enterprise. Now, sometimes the lawyer may be as bad as the people he or she is defending, but generally they're doing their job, and there's sort of a civil understanding that you don't generally attack

the attorneys who are doing defense counsel with a broad brush. But using all these techniques, he brings a case against these five families all at once. It's also very nice of you to have me for lunch. I should tell you that since I became United States attorney, not many of my friends have lunch with me in restaurants in New York anymore. I don't know why that is, but... In those days, prosecutors were very reserved people. You saw them only in court, and then after a successful conviction, they might hold a press conference conference and then they disappeared again.

And Rudy turned that on its ear. Thank you very much. It's nice of all of you to have me here. Oh, I'm sorry. Sometimes I forget where I am. Actually, that comes from listening to so many tape recordings of organized crime people who actually do talk like that. At any opportunity, he had to speak to a reporter. He did. He was everywhere. And he was a household name. Everyone knew who Rudy was. He's Rudolph Giuliani. Giuliani went for an immediate impact. And that 12 board members have aided and abetted wire fraud in connection with the

mafia scheme to ensure the elections of the last two Teamster presidents. In 1985, I'm a young Metro reporter for The Times, and I get a call from one of the editors of the magazine saying they wanted a profile on this new prosecutor in Manhattan. The way you start a piece like that, an in-depth magazine profile, is you start following the subject around. And I sat with him in his office, and I was led in on meetings, and I rode with him in his car with his security people.

And one day we walked into an elevator, and the elevator goes up and it stops. And in steps a woman, and she gets all excited. She says, you're Rudy Giuliani, the man who's slaying the mob. I can't believe I'm here with you. This is such a thrill. It's right in the middle of the case. And he hasn't even got convictions on these people at this point. And generally prosecutors are much more reserved

and they don't try the cases in the press. And here he is bragging about what he's going to do when he hasn't even got any convictions. And, I mean, he has me, a New York Times reporter, following him around, talking about this case, talking about how awful the mafia is and how awful the defense attorneys are to represent these kinds of people. And he doesn't even have his convictions yet. And it seems never a limit to the publicity that Giuliani creates. Mrs. Giuliani, Donna Hanover, is a newsreader with a New York TV station. And her husband seems to be on screen almost as much as she is.

Why is Giuliani doing this? Why is he taking this case to the public, through the media, in ways that don't seem normal for a prosecutor? Well, there are several answers to that, I think. One is there's a legitimate prosecutorial strategy where I think he thinks this will be helpful. He might convince people to flip. He might send a message to the mafia that he's not afraid of them. That's one part of it. And then the other part of it is ego. There's no one Rudy Giuliani likes talking about more

than Rudy Giuliani. I see my job as, in some ways, I wouldn't call it a crusade, but part of the excitement of the job and part of the reason why you're willing to trade a certain amount of economic reward or even a certain amount of danger is the feeling of fulfillment in being able to remove from society some people who do terrible harm to it. So what happens to the case? So the case goes to trial and it goes on for 10 weeks. And every day it's on the front page of the newspapers and the lead of the news, and the jury comes back. It's a highly emotional moment. Some of the jurors are crying.

And all eight members of La Costa Nostra, the mafia board of directors, are found guilty. And Rudy has a press conference to celebrate the moment. He tells the press that the verdict reached today has resulted in dismantling the ruling council of La Casa Nostra. It's a large moment for undoing a good deal of the mafia's power, but it's also a large moment for Rudy Giuliani. from channel 2 news the first team this is sunday edition good morning everyone it is memorial day weekend the 24th day of may 1992 welcome to sunday edition and happy holiday In a town where registered Democrats outnumber Republicans five to one,

there's at least one man willing to challenge those odds. He's Rudolph Giuliani, Republican mayoral candidate of New York. What does Giuliani do with this major legal victory? How does he utilize it? Well, he's the most famous prosecutor in the country at that point, but he wants more,

and he decides that he's going to run for the mayor of New York City. And he wins. All that we know right now is that two airplanes struck the two large towers of the World Trade Center. We spoke to the White House. There also apparently was an attack on the Pentagon. And so when 9-11 happens, towards the end of his term... People should remain calm. They should remain where they are. I think we all have a memory of him walking around with a mask right at the site of the terrorist attack. We ask that the airspace around the city of New York

be sealed by military aircraft. He is positioned perfectly on the world stage to be the one who is single-handedly going to take on the terrorists and save the country. Everything is being done that can be done. And people tonight should say a prayer for the people that we've lost and be grateful that we're all here. And tomorrow, New York is going to be here and we're going to rebuild and we're going to be stronger than we were before. And Giuliani is going to take care of us and he's going to calm Americans. And he does. I mean, he has an effect. He speaks with authority. We're all going to be safe. We're all going to be fine. We should go about our

business and we should show these people that they can't stop us and they can't. He's on an international stage now, not just a national stage. And at one point, Oprah refers to him as America's mayor. Right. And it kind of feels like he is. Yes. If there's one thing Rudy is good at, it's assuring everybody that he will take care of our troubles. Having our city's institutions up and running sends a message that New York City is open for business. Saturday Night Live is one of our great New York City institutions,

and that's why it's important for you to do your show tonight. Can we be funny? Why start now? Live! One New York! It's Saturday night! This is what he'd always wanted, and in some ways, circumstance gave him the opportunity to just grab it, what he had always wanted, had been pushing for.

Suddenly it fell in his lap. And so he rides this popularity. And in 2007, he announces that he's going to run for president on the Republican ticket. His name is well known at this point. In the early going, he has the highest recognition of any candidate. And it becomes his main campaign theme. And on the evening of September 11, 2001, the day my city was attacked, I got on television and I said to the people of my city,

we're not going to engage in group blame. On the morning of September 11, 2001, I was waiting for a phone call from Vice President Cheney when the first of the two towers came down. And he's going to remind people how he calmed the nation during 9-11. And the reality is, if you look at me, September 11, the funerals, the memorial services, there were times in which it was just impossible not to feel the emotion.

And lo and behold, it doesn't work. People are put off by it. They see it as he's using this awful event to his own advantage. In fact, at one point, Joe Biden, during a debate, makes this comment that sort of goes around the world. Rudy Giuliani, there's only three things he mentioned in a sentence,

a noun and a verb and 9-11. I mean, there's nothing else. There's nothing else. And that's it. He's done. He's no longer a presidential candidate. His narrative arc has gone from the top of the world to defeat. What happens after this loss? Where does Giuliani go? Well, he sort of retreats out of the public eye for a while. He goes back to being a corporate lawyer. So at this point, Rudy Giuliani is, he's sort of out of the national limelight, but he turns up on cable as a talking head. And then Donald Trump arrives on the scene. Trump is clearly the best choice. He's the best choice for New York. He's the best choice for the country.

And he's the one who can beat Hillary Clinton. And I think that Rudy sees that as an opportunity to ride his coattail. Please welcome the former mayor of New York City, Rudy Giuliani. And suddenly he's speaking at the Republican National Convention for Trump. This is a man with a big heart who loves people, all people, from the top to the bottom, from the middle to the side. And he's on Fox News 24-7. This man is a ingenious negotiator. He knows how to find common ground, even where there's disagreement. I'm Rudy Giuliani. I mean a lot of New York politics. I endorse Donald Trump, but I'm not part of the campaign. Rudy Giuliani is with us.

Nice to be back, Sean. Good to see you, Mr. Mayor. It's been a while. We've been through a lot. And he's getting back into the public eye in a major way. And he's doing what he does so well as he becomes one of Trump's leading attack dogs. Who's on tape, videotaped, talking about how he picks up women by grabbing them by their crotch. Would you take that as evidence and use it?

If somebody said it on tape? All the way if it actually happened. No, if he said he did. I mean, men say a lot of things. We had this on, no, he said he did it. Would you take that as evidence that he did it? If he said he did it? Well, I don't know, there was far more evidence

than Bill Clinton. No, we're just talking about this case. No, when a guy says I did it, why would you not use that as evidence that he did it, if he said he did it. Well, I know there was far more evidence than Bill Clinton. No, we're just talking about this case. No, when a guy says I did it, why would you not use that as evidence? So let's talk about Bill Clinton. Well, one at a time. Let's start with... Well, how come he wasn't prosecuted

for raping Juanita Broderick? How come he wasn't prosecuted for taking advantage of an intern in the White House? So Giuliani became a very deft defender of Trump's behavior, and there was nothing that he wouldn't stand up for or say in Trump's defense. These actually happened because there's no tape of him saying, I did it. Whereas we've got a tape of Donald Trump saying he did it. No, there was semen on her dress, which proves he lied to America.

When Rudy Giuliani joined the president's legal team last week, it wasn't clear what exactly his role would be. But now it appears that he'll be taking point with Robert Mueller. Rudy Giuliani said one of his main jobs would be to try to negotiate the end of the Mueller investigation. So Giuliani very recently joined the president's legal team. And I wonder what you think he offers the president now that he's a member of this group of attorneys who are helping him navigate the special counsel. Well, potentially what he offers the president is a familiarity with the very same tactics that the prosecutors are using on President Trump. that the prosecutors are using on President Trump.

In a way, President Trump finds himself in the same position that the mafia leaders found themselves in 30 years ago. So who knows better the tactics used against those leaders than Giuliani? Wiretaps, getting people to flip, going after the lawyers. And so who's better positioned to undo those tactics, to unwind them, than the man who innovated many of them in taking on the mafia? There is, of course, a large irony in all this. It was Rudy who went after the mob lawyers aggressively 30, 35 years ago. And now the U.S. prosecutor in Manhattan is going after Michael Cohen, Trump's lawyer. So in a way, the chickens have come back to roost.

I wonder what lessons you expect Giuliani to apply in this case, defending the president, based on his time as this kind of tough-talking New York prosecutor who took on the mob? Well, I certainly think the tough-talking will continue. I think he'll work at using the media as much as possible to his advantage. And I think he'll continue to be an attack dog for his client, President Trump.

Whatever he has to say, whatever position he has to take, he will take it because he has one goal, which is to protect his client and ultimately to aggrandize himself. Mike, thank you very much. Really appreciate it. It was a pleasure. On Sunday, in an extended television appearance, Rudy Giuliani made several startling admissions relating to his new client. He said it was possible that the president's personal lawyer, Michael Cohen, had made additional payments to women on behalf of the president and suggested Trump

might invoke the Fifth Amendment to avoid testifying before special counsel Robert Mueller, whom Giuliani characterized as an out-of-control prosecutor. What happens if Robert Mueller subpoenas the president? Will you comply? Well, we don't have to. He's the president of the United States. We can assert the same privileges other presidents have. President Clinton negotiated a deal in which he didn't admit...

Later on Sunday, in an interview with The Washington Post, Giuliani said he was pleased with the results of his media appearances since joining the president's legal team. Quote, We are setting the agenda. Everybody's reacting to us now. And I feel good about that because that's what I came in to do.

We'll be right back. Here's what else you need to know today. Here's what else you need to know today. If the United States leaves the nuclear agreement, you will soon see that they will regret it like never before in history. On Sunday, the president of Iran, Hassan Rouhani, warned the U.S. not to pull out of a historic nuclear deal, as President Trump has threatened to do by May 12.

In a speech broadcast on state TV, Rouhani raised the possibility of restarting Iran's nuclear energy program, which is now mostly shut down under the terms of the deal, if the U.S. leaves the agreement. The Trump administration is under intense pressure from Israel to withdraw from the nuclear deal and from France, Germany, and Britain to remain in it. That's it for The Daily. I'm Michael Barbaro. See you tomorrow.